Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[David Chambers]

> David if you make that user account an "organization" then if/when you ever 
> lose interest in or run out of time to maintain it, you can share with or 
> pass ownership off to any other github user - with no need to pass off 
> control of a hosting account or move it to a new hosting account or transfer 
> control of a domain ... and all the other relevant headaches with that sort 
> of thing.

Terrific idea. github.com/markdown (https://github.com/markdown) is now an 
organization. Anyone interested in being added as a member can send me a 
message with their GitHub username.

David 


On Wednesday, 24 October 2012 at 9:03 PM, Waylan Limberg wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 11:18 PM, David Chambers
> mailto:david.chambers...@gmail.com)> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 at 7:25 PM, John MacFarlane wrote:
> > 
> > Github has wikis for each project.
> > Example: https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/wiki
> > 
> > You'd only have to create a 'markdown' project, which needn't have
> > anything in it but a README.markdown file with a link to the wiki.
> > Anyone with a github account could edit the wiki.
> > This seems far easier than any of the other proposals.
> > 
> > I created the markdown account on GitHub some time ago. If there's support
> > for John's suggestion, we could create a public repository in that account
> > and use its wiki.
> > 
> 
> 
> +1 from me.
> 
> There used to be an old wiki (I forget where) which lasted for some
> years. But it died a slow death. First from lack of maintenance, then
> from spam, then from being locked down to avoid the spam. No longer
> being publicly editable was the last nail in its coffin. At least
> that's the way I remember it.
> 
> The thing about github it that is has user management features to help
> with spam, etc. (not that other wiki systems don't but...) David if
> you make that user account an "organization" then if/when you ever
> lose interest in or run out of time to maintain it, you can share with
> or pass ownership off to any other github user - with no need to pass
> off control of a hosting account or move it to a new hosting account
> or transfer control of a domain ... and all the other relevant
> headaches with that sort of thing.
> 
> Also, as a bonus, the default page url (using github pages) would be
> markdown.github.com (http://markdown.github.com) - which is even better that
> github-flavored-markdown gets. Sure, that page wouldn't be as easily
> editable as a wiki, but just make it static with general info and a
> link to the wiki - or don't - use pull requests as moderated editing
> of the github page. Trusted and frequent editors of the doc (and/or
> implementation authors) could be given full editing privileges of the
> underlying repo using there respective user accounts (which privileges
> could still be revoked upon abuse).
> 
> For that matter, as an "organization", each implementation author
> could host their implementation under markdown/[implementation_name].
> Or if they don't want to, auto-updating mirrors could be added
> (although, unfortunately, the auto-updating script would need to be
> maintained externally). Great for one-stop shopping for all
> implementations. I know I'd use it to browse markdown.pl 
> (http://markdown.pl)'s source -
> rather than downloading the zip file.
> 
> -- 
> 
> \X/ /-\ `/ |_ /-\ |\|
> Waylan Limberg
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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Waylan Limberg]

On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 11:18 PM, David Chambers
 wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 at 7:25 PM, John MacFarlane wrote:
>
> Github has wikis for each project.
> Example: https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/wiki
>
> You'd only have to create a 'markdown' project, which needn't have
> anything in it but a README.markdown file with a link to the wiki.
> Anyone with a github account could edit the wiki.
> This seems far easier than any of the other proposals.
>
> I created the markdown account on GitHub some time ago. If there's support
> for John's suggestion, we could create a public repository in that account
> and use its wiki.

+1 from me.

There used to be an old wiki (I forget where) which lasted for some
years. But it died a slow death. First from lack of maintenance, then
from spam, then from being locked down to avoid the spam. No longer
being publicly editable was the last nail in its coffin. At least
that's the way I remember it.

The thing about github it that is has user management features to help
with spam, etc. (not that other wiki systems don't but...) David if
you make that user account an "organization" then if/when you ever
lose interest in or run out of time to maintain it, you can share with
or pass ownership off to any other github user - with no need to pass
off control of a hosting account or move it to a new hosting account
or transfer control of a domain ... and all the other relevant
headaches with that sort of thing.

Also, as a bonus, the default page url (using github pages) would be
markdown.github.com - which is even better that
github-flavored-markdown gets. Sure, that page wouldn't be as easily
editable as a wiki, but just make it static with general info and a
link to the wiki - or don't - use pull requests as moderated editing
of the github page. Trusted and frequent editors of the doc (and/or
implementation authors) could be given full editing privileges of the
underlying repo using there respective user accounts (which privileges
could still be revoked upon abuse).

For that matter, as an "organization", each implementation author
could host their implementation under markdown/[implementation_name].
Or if they don't want to, auto-updating mirrors could be added
(although, unfortunately, the auto-updating script would need to be
maintained externally). Great for one-stop shopping for all
implementations. I know I'd use it to browse markdown.pl's source -
rather than  downloading the zip file.

-- 

\X/ /-\ `/ |_ /-\ |\|
Waylan Limberg
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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Alan Hogan]

It’s a very good idea to use GitHub wikis, and I don’t want to detract from 
that *in the slightest.*

However, I can’t help but observe the irony of such wikis running GitHub’s 
customized Markdown. In some sense, it’s the “least standard” Markdown in 
common use:

1. No HTML allowed
2. Line breaks are never ignored
3. Plain hyperlinks (no angle brackets) are always hyperlinked
4. Extra syntax has been added, such as [[wiki]] notation and github-specific 
entity shortcodes

Interestingly enough, those modifications are pretty great ones.

#1 is a reasonable trade-off when the public is contributing code (although a 
good XSS scrubber works too)
#2 makes Markdown less confusing for most people.
#3 similarly is what anyone would really expect (when’s the last time you saw a 
URL you couldn’t click?)
Regarding #4, wiki syntax is a must on a wiki, and the other features of 
Markdown on GH make sense on GH, too.

So in a way, a GitHub wiki might prod us to keep thinking about more ways 
Markdown can be used, and perhaps even start thinking about adopting #2 and #3 
in a hypothetical Markdown 2.0, and making wiki syntax an officially available 
option…

Or not.



Alan Hogan

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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[David Chambers]

On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 at 7:25 PM, John MacFarlane wrote:

> Github has wikis for each project.
> Example: https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/wiki
> 
> You'd only have to create a 'markdown' project, which needn't have
> anything in it but a README.markdown file with a link to the wiki.
> Anyone with a github account could edit the wiki.
> This seems far easier than any of the other proposals.



I created the markdown (https://github.com/markdown) account on GitHub some 
time ago. If there's support for John's suggestion, we could create a public 
repository in that account and use its wiki.

David 


On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 at 7:25 PM, John MacFarlane wrote:

> +++ Andrew Pennebaker [Oct 18 12 09:52 ]:
> > What I'm saying here is that relying on 3rd parties solutions while a
> > very cheap (or even free) VPS would be sufficient is asking for
> > unnecessary trouble.
> > 
> > I agree that we should opt for convenient, preferably free hosting.
> > I don't mean to start a technical argument about "static" vs "dynamic"
> > web pages. What I'm trying to convey is that GitHub, while an
> > incredibly easy CMS, only supports static web pages, not wikis, which
> > require a running system that can modify a database for wiki edits.
> > 
> 
> 
> Github has wikis for each project.
> Example: https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/wiki
> 
> You'd only have to create a 'markdown' project, which needn't have
> anything in it but a README.markdown file with a link to the wiki.
> Anyone with a github account could edit the wiki.
> This seems far easier than any of the other proposals.
> 
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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[John MacFarlane]

+++ Andrew Pennebaker [Oct 18 12 09:52 ]:
>What I'm saying here is that relying on 3rd parties solutions while a
>very cheap (or even free) VPS would be sufficient is asking for
>unnecessary trouble.
> 
>I agree that we should opt for convenient, preferably free hosting.
>I don't mean to start a technical argument about "static" vs "dynamic"
>web pages. What I'm trying to convey is that GitHub, while an
>incredibly easy CMS, only supports static web pages, not wikis, which
>require a running system that can modify a database for wiki edits.

Github has wikis for each project.
Example: https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/wiki

You'd only have to create a 'markdown' project, which needn't have
anything in it but a README.markdown file with a link to the wiki.
Anyone with a github account could edit the wiki.
This seems far easier than any of the other proposals.

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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[David J. Weller-Fahy]

* Alan Hogan  [2012-10-24 15:06 -0400]:
> mdwn.tk is nice and short, but markdown.io could seem like a more
> official domain IMO.

+1

-- 
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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Alan Hogan]

mdwn.tk is nice and short, but markdown.io could seem like a more official 
domain IMO.

On Oct 24, 2012, at 11:40 AM, Boris Le Ninivin  
wrote:

> I've not tried to use a "redirect" to hide another website's address. I use 
> their DNS instead, and I see no ads... But I use adblock, so I'm not sure.
> 
> Boris
> 
> On 10/24/2012 07:46 PM, Alan Hogan wrote:
>> I only ever dealt with .tk domains as a teen when I couldn’t afford a real 
>> domain, and they would basically  your real site and add 
>> advertisements. It wasn’t a good experience. I trust things may have changed 
>> since then, but I still don’t ever see or trust .tk domains.
>> 
>> On Oct 24, 2012, at 9:23 AM, Boris Le Ninivin  
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 10/24/2012 06:19 PM, David Chambers wrote:
 I registered markdown.io for a year but did nothing with it during that 
 time, so let the registration lapse. I'm happy to reregister this domain 
 name (or to register a different one) and to point it at the appropriate 
 nameservers.
 
 David
>>> I was thinking of getting mdwn.tk
>>> 
>>> Markdown.io would be a better name though, I think...
>>> 
>>> Does anyone else have an opinion? :)
>>> 
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> 
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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Boris Le Ninivin]

I've not tried to use a "redirect" to hide another website's address. I 
use their DNS instead, and I see no ads... But I use adblock, so I'm not 
sure.


Boris

On 10/24/2012 07:46 PM, Alan Hogan wrote:
I only ever dealt with .tk domains as a teen when I couldn't afford a 
real domain, and they would basically  your real site and add 
advertisements. It wasn't a good experience. I trust things may have 
changed since then, but I still don't ever see or trust .tk domains.


On Oct 24, 2012, at 9:23 AM, Boris Le Ninivin 
mailto:boris.lenini...@gmail.com>> wrote:



On 10/24/2012 06:19 PM, David Chambers wrote:
I registered markdown.io for a year but did nothing with it during 
that time, so let the registration lapse. I'm happy to reregister 
this domain name (or to register a different one) and to point it at 
the appropriate nameservers.


David

I was thinking of getting mdwn.tk

Markdown.io would be a better name though, I think...

Does anyone else have an opinion? :)

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Alan Hogan


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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Alan Hogan]

I only ever dealt with .tk domains as a teen when I couldn’t afford a real 
domain, and they would basically  your real site and add 
advertisements. It wasn’t a good experience. I trust things may have changed 
since then, but I still don’t ever see or trust .tk domains.

On Oct 24, 2012, at 9:23 AM, Boris Le Ninivin  wrote:

> On 10/24/2012 06:19 PM, David Chambers wrote:
>> I registered markdown.io for a year but did nothing with it during that 
>> time, so let the registration lapse. I'm happy to reregister this domain 
>> name (or to register a different one) and to point it at the appropriate 
>> nameservers.
>> 
>> David
> I was thinking of getting mdwn.tk
> 
> Markdown.io would be a better name though, I think...
> 
> Does anyone else have an opinion? :)
> 
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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Boris Le Ninivin]

On 10/24/2012 06:19 PM, David Chambers wrote:
I registered markdown.io for a year but did nothing with it during 
that time, so let the registration lapse. I'm happy to reregister this 
domain name (or to register a different one) and to point it at the 
appropriate nameservers.


David

I was thinking of getting mdwn.tk

Markdown.io would be a better name though, I think...

Does anyone else have an opinion? :)

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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[David Chambers]

I registered markdown.io for a year but did nothing with it during that time, 
so let the registration lapse. I'm happy to reregister this domain name (or to 
register a different one) and to point it at the appropriate nameservers.

David 


On Monday, 22 October 2012 at 8:24 PM, Boris Le Ninivin wrote:

> On 10/23/2012 02:37 AM, David J. Weller-Fahy wrote:
> > Ah-hah! I knew I was too tired when I responded - let me clarify.
> > 
> > I don't believe we'll need fcgiwrap or Nginx, as I already have a
> > functional setup of ikiwiki running under mathopd, and can duplicate
> > that for another user easily enough.
> > 
> 
> Your VPS, your call. :)
> > I can do the initial setup of the wiki and gitolite, assuming the
> > gitolite configuration is not rocket science (TM). I'll run the wiki
> > under an isolated user, set some reasonable defaults, and then get you
> > setup as the administrator. Note, I'm committing to donating VPS
> > hosting, but not to being the active maintainer of the wiki. I would
> > hand that over to you, and would be a sometime helper, but RL does not
> > allow for much free time.
> > 
> 
> Same here, so it might be great if a couple of other people would ask 
> for an access (id_rsa.pub) via git too; so they can put things we forget 
> (or don't have the time to add) in the wiki.
> > I can get those items done within the next few days (before Friday,
> > certainly), and then we can test connectivity and make sure you have
> > full access to the wiki's repository.
> > 
> 
> Depending on the availability of the virtual-server manager of the 
> French association I mentionned before, I might already have (I've asked 
> a few days ago, but they have much to do apparently) a working VPS at 
> this point... So... Wait and see...
> > To make sure I fully understand: The intent of this Wiki would be to
> > provide a central repository for documentation about Markdown, the
> > variants available (including the 1.2b8 and other semi-official
> > variants), the quirks and bugs of each, and start working toward
> > community convergence w.r.t. a future "Markdown2," or whatever it will
> > be called. Did I capture that correctly?
> > 
> 
> Same idea here yes. Plus a link to a (list of the?) multi-dingus, if 
> available.
> > Final item: What temporary* subdomain does the community want? I can
> > put anything on the front of my "caterva.org (http://caterva.org)," and was 
> > tempted to just
> > create "md.caterva.org (http://md.caterva.org)," but realized others may 
> > have a preference. So:
> > What say y'all?
> > 
> 
> I was thinking about using a domain under a "first level TLD" such as 
> mdwn.tk (http://mdwn.tk). The thing being : We (or you) HAVE to set up a 
> working wiki 
> with some (even minimal) content before we ask for the domain, or it 
> will be taken down in minutes (their policy is quite restrictive about 
> non-resolving websites and inactivity). What do the others on the list 
> think?
> > *: There is nothing more permanent that a temporary measure, so I tend
> > to assume temporary names are going to be permanent now. ;)
> > 
> > Anyway, that's my brain-bytes for now. If I missed anything or there
> > are questions throw them out there.
> > 
> > Regards,
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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Boris Le Ninivin]

On 10/23/2012 02:37 AM, David J. Weller-Fahy wrote:

Ah-hah!  I knew I was too tired when I responded - let me clarify.

I don't believe we'll need fcgiwrap or Nginx, as I already have a
functional setup of ikiwiki running under mathopd, and can duplicate
that for another user easily enough.

Your VPS, your call. :)

I can do the initial setup of the wiki and gitolite, assuming the
gitolite configuration is not rocket science (TM).  I'll run the wiki
under an isolated user, set some reasonable defaults, and then get you
setup as the administrator.  Note, I'm committing to donating VPS
hosting, but not to being the active maintainer of the wiki.  I would
hand that over to you, and would be a sometime helper, but RL does not
allow for much free time.
Same here, so it might be great if a couple of other people would ask 
for an access (id_rsa.pub) via git too; so they can put things we forget 
(or don't have the time to add) in the wiki.

I can get those items done within the next few days (before Friday,
certainly), and then we can test connectivity and make sure you have
full access to the wiki's repository.
Depending on the availability of the virtual-server manager of the 
French association I mentionned before, I might already have (I've asked 
a few days ago, but they have much to do apparently) a working VPS at 
this point... So... Wait and see...

To make sure I fully understand: The intent of this Wiki would be to
provide a central repository for documentation about Markdown, the
variants available (including the 1.2b8 and other semi-official
variants), the quirks and bugs of each, and start working toward
community convergence w.r.t. a future "Markdown2," or whatever it will
be called.  Did I capture that correctly?
Same idea here yes. Plus a link to a (list of the?) multi-dingus, if 
available.

Final item: What temporary* subdomain does the community want?  I can
put anything on the front of my "caterva.org," and was tempted to just
create "md.caterva.org," but realized others may have a preference.  So:
What say y'all?
I was thinking about using a domain under a "first level TLD" such as 
mdwn.tk. The thing being : We (or you) HAVE to set up a working wiki 
with some (even minimal) content before we ask for the domain, or it 
will be taken down in minutes (their policy is quite restrictive about 
non-resolving websites and inactivity). What do the others on the list 
think?

*: There is nothing more permanent that a temporary measure, so I tend
to assume temporary names are going to be permanent now. ;)

Anyway, that's my brain-bytes for now.  If I missed anything or there
are questions throw them out there.

Regards,

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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[David J. Weller-Fahy]

TL;DR: I'll set it up, you'll maintain it, what will we name it?

* David J. Weller-Fahy  
[2012-10-22 01:21 -0400]:
> * Boris Le Ninivin  [2012-10-22 01:14 -0400]:
> > Are the following services installed / configured / running (or
> > deployed) on your server :
> > 
> > A) Nginx
> Nope: I'm using mathopd as my http server.
> 
> > C) fcgiwrap
> No, but (again) I don't think it would be very difficult.
> 
> > If yes, would you like to set the wiki up yourself, or do you prefer
> > someone else (it can be me) to set it up?
> 
> It's bed time where I'm at, so I'll respond more fully tomorrow or the
> next day.  However, I know I would not have time to set it up, but I'd
> be willing to get accounts setup for those who would need them.

Ah-hah!  I knew I was too tired when I responded - let me clarify.

I don't believe we'll need fcgiwrap or Nginx, as I already have a
functional setup of ikiwiki running under mathopd, and can duplicate
that for another user easily enough.

I can do the initial setup of the wiki and gitolite, assuming the
gitolite configuration is not rocket science (TM).  I'll run the wiki
under an isolated user, set some reasonable defaults, and then get you
setup as the administrator.  Note, I'm committing to donating VPS
hosting, but not to being the active maintainer of the wiki.  I would
hand that over to you, and would be a sometime helper, but RL does not
allow for much free time.

I can get those items done within the next few days (before Friday,
certainly), and then we can test connectivity and make sure you have
full access to the wiki's repository.

To make sure I fully understand: The intent of this Wiki would be to
provide a central repository for documentation about Markdown, the
variants available (including the 1.2b8 and other semi-official
variants), the quirks and bugs of each, and start working toward
community convergence w.r.t. a future "Markdown2," or whatever it will
be called.  Did I capture that correctly?

Final item: What temporary* subdomain does the community want?  I can
put anything on the front of my "caterva.org," and was tempted to just
create "md.caterva.org," but realized others may have a preference.  So:
What say y'all?

*: There is nothing more permanent that a temporary measure, so I tend
to assume temporary names are going to be permanent now. ;)

Anyway, that's my brain-bytes for now.  If I missed anything or there
are questions throw them out there.

Regards,
-- 
dave [ please don't CC me ]


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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[David J. Weller-Fahy]

* Boris Le Ninivin  [2012-10-22 01:14 -0400]:
> On 10/22/2012 06:21 AM, David J. Weller-Fahy wrote:
> >Let me know if this is still needed given the contributions from John
> >McFarlane, et al.
> 
> Thank you very much for your proposal. I've not been able to get a VPS
> yet, so it could be handy if we could have a "slot" on yours.
> 
> Are the following services installed / configured / running (or
> deployed) on your server :
> 
> A) Nginx

Nope: I'm using mathopd as my http server.

> B) gitolite

No, but this would not be (I think) very difficult.

> C) fcgiwrap

No, but (again) I don't think it would be very difficult.

> If yes, would you like to set the wiki up yourself, or do you prefer
> someone else (it can be me) to set it up?

It's bed time where I'm at, so I'll respond more fully tomorrow or the
next day.  However, I know I would not have time to set it up, but I'd
be willing to get accounts setup for those who would need them.

Regards,
-- 
dave [ please don't CC me ]


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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Boris Le Ninivin]

On 10/22/2012 06:21 AM, David J. Weller-Fahy wrote:

* Boris Le Ninivin  [2012-10-18 10:28 -0400]:

I've found a free VPS service, vps.me, which would be sufficient for a
simple ikiwiki setup; but it requires a (working) phone number, and I
don't have any...

So, it's possible, but I can't do it myself ;)

* Alan Hogan  [2012-10-18 12:02 -0400]:

I have a working US telephone number. Boris, I’ll email you directly.

Gentlemen, I'm late to thread, but I have a VPS which is severely
underutilized.  I'm already using an ikiwiki instance on there for my
own web site, and would be willing to host a community site for Markdown
(multi-dingus or whatever).

Let me know if this is still needed given the contributions from John
McFarlane, et al.

Regards,

Hello.

Thank you very much for your proposal. I've not been able to get a VPS 
yet, so it could be handy if we could have a "slot" on yours.


Are the following services installed / configured / running (or 
deployed) on your server :


A) Nginx
B) gitolite
C) fcgiwrap

?

If yes, would you like to set the wiki up yourself, or do you prefer 
someone else (it can be me) to set it up?


Regards,
Boris.
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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[David J. Weller-Fahy]

* David J. Weller-Fahy  
[2012-10-22 00:28 -0400]:
> John McFarlane

Apologies: MacFarlane

-- 
dave [ please don't CC me ]


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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[David J. Weller-Fahy]

* Boris Le Ninivin  [2012-10-18 10:28 -0400]:
> I've found a free VPS service, vps.me, which would be sufficient for a
> simple ikiwiki setup; but it requires a (working) phone number, and I
> don't have any...
> 
> So, it's possible, but I can't do it myself ;)

* Alan Hogan  [2012-10-18 12:02 -0400]:
> I have a working US telephone number. Boris, I’ll email you directly.

Gentlemen, I'm late to thread, but I have a VPS which is severely
underutilized.  I'm already using an ikiwiki instance on there for my
own web site, and would be willing to host a community site for Markdown
(multi-dingus or whatever).

Let me know if this is still needed given the contributions from John
McFarlane, et al.

Regards,
-- 
dave [ please don't CC me ]


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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[John MacFarlane]

+++ John Gruber [Oct 18 12 22:20 ]:
> On 17 Oct 2012, at 9:40pm, Alan Hogan  wrote:
> 
> > I do have to warn you, however. While a number of maintainers have gone to 
> > great lengths to maximize interoperability, there *is* no BDFL (benevolent 
> > dictator for life)
> 
> Yes there is. I believe Markdown has thrived and continues to grow because I 
> haven't fucked around with it. The canonical docs are those on Daring 
> Fireball.

Unfortunately, those docs are vague on a number of important questions (I'm
not talking about corner cases).  I've tried to list a few of them here:

http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/faq.html#what-are-some-big-questions-that-the-markdown-spec-does-not-answer

I hope you'll consider weighing in on some of these things and
clarifying the official documentation.  I don't see how this would
prevent markdown from growing and thriving. It is frustrating for those
who write in markdown to find that their documents get interpreted
differently by different markdown processors.  And it is frustrating
for implementers not to know when something is a bug.

John

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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Michel Fortin]

Le 2012-10-18 à 22:20, John Gruber  a écrit :

> I believe Markdown has thrived and continues to grow because I haven't fucked 
> around with it. The canonical docs are those on Daring Fireball.


The syntax document on Daring Fireball is a good definition of what Markdown 
is, and of the underlying philosophy. It's a good thing too that the syntax 
isn't defined in a too restrictive way: this leaves room for extensions and 
experimentation without breaking the claim that the modified version is still a 
Markdown implementation. Which means of course that Markdown is everywhere, 
even though it's not the same Markdown.

Markdown is not defined by its edge cases. But nevertheless those edge cases 
which differs between implementations are a problem for many people. I doubt 
very much that you being here on this list from time to time to give an opinion 
on whether something is a feature or a bug in Markdown.pl would impede 
Markdown's growth in any way. But of course, it's your time and you can spend 
it elsewhere if you want, and I respect that.

The case that spawned this thread seems to be a bug in your view. I say that 
because you fixed it in the unreleased 1.0.2b4 version of Markdown.pl, which 
added support for properly nested parens inside URLs. Which is great, except 
that 1.0.2b4 is an unreleased version from 2005 that not everyone can easily 
find.

There are in fact two reference versions of Markdown right now -- Markdown.pl 
1.0.1 and Markdown.pl 1.0.2b8 -- exhibiting some differences in behaviours and 
in features. This is confusing, both for users and for implementers. It's also 
hard not to think that Markdown.pl is abandonware at this point because 1.0.1 
was was 8 years ago, and because of the beta left it in an unfinished state.

Despite its unfinished state, I know that 1.0.2b8 is indeed in widespread use. 
I had a lot of pressure to enable [shortcut-style] links in PHP Markdown a 
while ago, all that for interoperability with Markdown.pl (how ironic!). It's 
now enabled by default in PHP Markdown [and many other implementations][1].

[1]: 
http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/?text=a+%5Bshortcut-style%5D+link.%0A%0A%5Bshortcut-style%5D%3A+http%3A%2F%2Fmichelf.ca%2F

Still, Markdown is stronger than ever. So perhaps we don't need to change any 
of that. I guess it's fine if Markdown.pl is left to a 8 year old version with 
unfixed bugs and lacking a feature you introduced yourself in an unfinished 
beta and that everyone is now using regardless. And I'm not being sarcastic: 
Markdown's growth doesn't seem impeded at all by that, so why change any of 
that?

I think Markdown (and Markdown.pl) is in need for an update. A small one. Like 
adding shortcut-style links and fixing small bugs like parens in URLs... that'd 
be useful to many people and it wouldn't impede Markdown's growth in any way. 
It'll also make the "reference implementation" a slightly more reliable 
reference, and somewhat more credible. One update every 8 years isn't too many.

But that's indeed not needed for Markdown to thrive indeed, as the past years 
have shown. Feel free to continue not doing anything and passively watch it 
take over the world on its own. ;-)

For edge cases and interoperability issues, it probably ought to be someone 
else's spec. For one thing, you don't seem to have much time or interest for 
these matters. And also, it's probably better for growth if the official 
Markdown spec isn't screwed too tightly. This leaves more room for new 
implementations and experimentation, and more things can thus be called 
Markdown.

It's good to hear from you on this list John. Please keep doing that.

-- 
Michel Fortin
michel.for...@michelf.ca
http://michelf.ca/

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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Chris Lott]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 7:20 PM, John Gruber  wrote:
> On 17 Oct 2012, at 9:40pm, Alan Hogan  wrote:
>
>> I do have to warn you, however. While a number of maintainers have gone to 
>> great lengths to maximize interoperability, there *is* no BDFL (benevolent 
>> dictator for life)
>
> Yes there is. I believe Markdown has thrived and continues to grow because I 
> haven't fucked around with it. The canonical docs are those on Daring 
> Fireball.

Yes, it *is* nice for some people to have a puppy stay a puppy forever. So cute.

c
--
Chris Lott 
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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[John Gruber]

On 17 Oct 2012, at 9:40pm, Alan Hogan  wrote:

> I do have to warn you, however. While a number of maintainers have gone to 
> great lengths to maximize interoperability, there *is* no BDFL (benevolent 
> dictator for life)

Yes there is. I believe Markdown has thrived and continues to grow because I 
haven't fucked around with it. The canonical docs are those on Daring Fireball.

—J.G.

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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Andrew Pennebaker]

>
> 1) This assumes that all implementations use regex. That may
> not necessarily be the case. For example, peg markdown is a peg parser.
> While I'm not sure if it uses a peg grammar or regex for matching urls (I
> didn't go check), why should it be required to use a regex?
>

We can't possible enforce regex's, but for those implementations that use
them, such as lex/yacc systems, it couldn't hurt to publish a thoroughly
tested URL regex for the sake of the public.

Parsers still use lexers (e.g. yacc and lex), and those lexers recognize
regular expressions, so peg should be able to benefit from this.

2) Not all languages (perl, python, ruby, php, lua, ...) use the same regex
> implementation. For instance, when developing the python implementation of
> markdown, I have had to work around a few features of the perl regex
> implementation that do not exist in python. Had JG been working in a
> language other than perl when he first developed the markdown syntax, I
> suspect a few things would be different. Some subtle features of the syntax
> are definitely a direct result of how perl's regex works. Nothing that
> can't be overcome - but not always with regex (see [this][] example).
>

True, but there is a rough standard for "Portable Perl-compatible regular
expressions", as in the Common Lisp library cl-ppcre. The basics of regex's
are standard across the board; when the syntax differs, such as for lex,
the semantics still carry over.


> 3) Even if the above issues didn't exist, how would you be able to
> convince all of the implementors to use it in their implementations?
>

Show them how such a regex handles edge cases better, such as the presence
of parentheses (original post).

Cheers,

Andrew Pennebaker
www.yellosoft.us
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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Fletcher Penney]

This is really part of a larger issue, which is developing a "standards-body" 
for the community of developers of projects built around the Markdown syntax, 
now that the core program, i.e. Markdown.pl is no longer maintained.

This has been discussed multiple times on this list by myself and several 
others, and has generally not gained any traction.

I wish you luck in your quest.


F-

On Oct 18, 2012, at 1:38 PM, Andrew Pennebaker wrote:

> Could we standardize URL-parsing regexes across Markdown implementations? Can 
> we come up with a really super regex and invite the various fork developers 
> and maintainers to use that regex?
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andrew Pennebaker
> www.yellosoft.us
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-- 
Fletcher T. Penney
fletc...@fletcherpenney.net 



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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Waylan Limberg]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Andrew Pennebaker <
andrew.penneba...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Could we standardize URL-parsing regexes across Markdown implementations?
> Can we come up with a really super regex and invite the various fork
> developers and maintainers to use that regex?
>
>
There are at least 3 possible problems with this:

1) This assumes that all implementations use regex. That may
not necessarily be the case. For example, peg markdown is a peg parser.
While I'm not sure if it uses a peg grammar or regex for matching urls (I
didn't go check), why should it be required to use a regex?

2) Not all languages (perl, python, ruby, php, lua, ...) use the same regex
implementation. For instance, when developing the python implementation of
markdown, I have had to work around a few features of the perl regex
implementation that do not exist in python. Had JG been working in a
language other than perl when he first developed the markdown syntax, I
suspect a few things would be different. Some subtle features of the syntax
are definitely a direct result of how perl's regex works. Nothing that
can't be overcome - but not always with regex (see [this][] example).

[this]:
https://github.com/waylan/Python-Markdown/commit/ef9a229ebeaf8173e9fd4e541de4d83e8678f649

3) Even if the above issues didn't exist, how would you be able to convince
all of the implementors to use it in their implementations?

Oh, and to address the original issue starting this thread, along with the
others mentioned, Python-Markdown also parses the url with parenthesis
correctly. I would suggest filing a bug report with whichever
implementation Stack Overflow uses and hope that that implementation is
still under active development.

-- 

\X/ /-\ `/ |_ /-\ |\|
Waylan Limberg
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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Andrew Pennebaker]

Could we standardize URL-parsing regexes across Markdown implementations?
Can we come up with a really super regex and invite the various fork
developers and maintainers to use that regex?

-- 
Cheers,

Andrew Pennebaker
www.yellosoft.us
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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[John MacFarlane]

Pandoc, lunamark, peg-markdown, multimarkdown, and PHP markdown all handle  
 
balanced parentheses in URLs -- probably others as well.  I note that github's  
 
markdown parser (sundown) and discount 2.1.1.3 fail to parse the balanced   
 
parentheses in the first example. (Of course, since the spec is vague   
 
on this issue, I can only say it's a failure relative to my own 
 
interpretation of what markdown should do.) 
 

+++ Fletcher Penney [Oct 17 12 21:00 ]:
> Markdown.pl (the original implementation by John Gruber) is basically 
> abandonware at this point, as it as not been updated in years.  In fact, as 
> has been pointed out on this list, Gruber has not commented on this 
> discussion group in years.
> 
> That said, Markdown the *syntax*, is certainly alive and well in the form of 
> multiple descendant projects.
> 
> In fact, your example file below works just fine with MultiMarkdown, and 
> presumably with peg-markdown (since I built MMD version 3 around John 
> MacFarlane's peg-markdown implementation.)
> 
> Not sure what implementation Stack Overflow is actually using, but clearly 
> some implementations work just fine in this regard.  Many (most?) modern 
> implementations also have vastly improved performance over the original perl 
> version for most documents (often by several orders of magnitude).  If they 
> are using Markdown.pl, perhaps it is time that they upgrade  If not, 
> simply speak with the developer of the actual implementation that is being 
> used.
> 
> 
> Fletcher
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 17, 2012, at 8:50 PM, Andrew Pennebaker wrote:
> 
> > How can we improve URL detection in Markdown? I posted a question on Stack 
> > Overflow and happened to click a URL in my post. To my surprise, it wasn't 
> > functional, and it took three different, nonintuitive manipulations before 
> > I achieved a functional URL. Stack Overflow says "not my problem", so I'm 
> > deferring to Markdown itself.
> > 
> > Here's a sample Markdown document on Gist. All but the final hyperlink fail 
> > to be functional. You can verify this behavior in Dingus. I'd paste my 
> > sample directly in Gmail, but it would actually fix the URLs and obscure 
> > the problem.
> > 
> > I believe this is easily fixed by altering the regex responsible for 
> > parsing [name](url)  syntax to be lazy rather than eager.
> > 
> > -- 
> > Cheers,
> > 
> > Andrew Pennebaker
> > www.yellosoft.us
> 
> 
> -- 
> Fletcher T. Penney
> fletc...@fletcherpenney.net 
> 



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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[John MacFarlane]

> Don't reinvent the wheel:
>
>   http://babelmark.bobtfish.net/

Babelmark has very outdated versions of many implementations (e.g.
pandoc 0.46, current version is 1.9.4.2.) And I don't blame the
maintainer for not keeping up to date. It's a big job to keep up-to-date
versions of umpteen implementations in many different languages going --
especially while keeping an eye on security.

A while back on this list, I made the following suggestion.  Let's
devise a protocol for a "dingus server" that each implementer can
implement and keep up to date.  Each dingus server would receive text
input as a POST request, or perhaps text plus some options, and return
HTML output. (There could be a relatively short length limit if people
are worried about users relying on the dingus server for regular text
conversion.)

The central multidingus could then just be an HTML page with AJAX.
It would take user input, then send out AJAX requests to all the dingus
servers, consolidate the output, and display it.

When I, as a markdown implementer, update one of my implementations,
I would just need to make sure I update the corresponding dingus server.
That would be my responsibility, and the person who maintains the central
multidingus needn't worry about it.  All the central multidingus needs are
the URLs of all the dingus servers.

I think a multidingus like this would be *really* useful. What do people
think?

John
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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Alan Hogan]

I have a working US telephone number. Boris, I’ll email you directly. 

On Oct 18, 2012, at 7:23 AM, Boris Le Ninivin  wrote:

> I've found a free VPS service, vps.me, which would be sufficient for a simple 
> ikiwiki setup; but it requires a (working) phone number, and I don't have 
> any...
> 
> So, it's possible, but I can't do it myself ;)
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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Boris Le Ninivin]

I've found a free VPS service, vps.me, which would be sufficient for a 
simple ikiwiki setup; but it requires a (working) phone number, and I 
don't have any...


So, it's possible, but I can't do it myself ;)
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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Boris Le Ninivin]

On 10/18/2012 03:52 PM, Andrew Pennebaker wrote:


What I'm saying here is that relying on 3rd parties solutions
while a very cheap (or even free) VPS would be sufficient is
asking for unnecessary trouble.


I agree that we should opt for convenient, preferably free hosting.

I don't mean to start a technical argument about "static" vs "dynamic" 
web pages. What I'm trying to convey is that GitHub, while an 
incredibly easy CMS, only supports static web pages, not wikis, which 
require a running system that can modify a database for wiki edits.

Probably because they provide their own separate tool for wikis.
That's why I call "dynamic", if you prefer to call this something 
else, I'm open to better terminology.
I'm not trying to start a troll on anything, but I'm a bit fed up by the 
whole hype "all-dynamic-web" tendancy in the IT nowadays. Not everything 
must be done dynamically, and there is no need of state-of-the-art 
over-expensive servers to run a simple static content with automated 
processing upon update. ;)


Joyent is a simple service offering free cloud hosting for Node.js 
applications. I'm not saying we have to use Joyent, Node.js, or even 
JavaScript for our website. I'm just saying it's an easy option.


If we'd overall prefer a whole VPS solution, that's fine too. If we're 
just interested in a basic CMS, that's also fine.
If one can provide us with a free VPS, it would be the best solution 
without any doubt.


What are our options for domain names? markdown.com 
 is unfortunately taken .
I was gonna suggest markdown.tk, but it's taken too... maybe mdwn.tk ? 
Or, this site  has several second level TLDs 
available for free... ' Carful though, some of them are "premium" 
(charged), like markdown.co.de.


Also, the eu.org second level tld is free and easily available (but it 
takes quite some time to get a domain, from my own experience) but they 
don't provide DNS servers (they could be set up on the VPS though).


Oh and about .tk, it's WAY better to have a website running BEFORE 
asking dot.tk for a domain, since they check very quickly if everything 
is in order; and if not, the website is taken down without prior notice 
(you get a mail AFTER it's done).

--
Cheers,

Andrew Pennebaker
www.yellosoft.us 

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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Andrew Pennebaker]

> What I'm saying here is that relying on 3rd parties solutions while a very
> cheap (or even free) VPS would be sufficient is asking for unnecessary
> trouble.
>

I agree that we should opt for convenient, preferably free hosting.

I don't mean to start a technical argument about "static" vs "dynamic" web
pages. What I'm trying to convey is that GitHub, while an incredibly easy
CMS, only supports static web pages, not wikis, which require a running
system that can modify a database for wiki edits. That's why I call
"dynamic", if you prefer to call this something else, I'm open to better
terminology.

Joyent is a simple service offering free cloud hosting for Node.js
applications. I'm not saying we have to use Joyent, Node.js, or even
JavaScript for our website. I'm just saying it's an easy option.

If we'd overall prefer a whole VPS solution, that's fine too. If we're just
interested in a basic CMS, that's also fine.

What are our options for domain names? markdown.com is unfortunately
taken
.

--
Cheers,

Andrew Pennebaker
www.yellosoft.us
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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Boris Le Ninivin]

A wiki is NOT a dynamic website, it has NO dynamic content strictly 
speaking : the content only has to be generated upon updating and not 
with every GET request.


Also, I don't really see what Javascript has to do with all this.

An ikiwiki setup has a very small memory footprint, and nginx doesn't 
consume more. Same goes for CPU. And ikiwiki is based on git, which 
allows for a decentralized architecture, and very efficient versionning.


What I'm saying here is that relying on 3rd parties solutions while a 
very cheap (or even free) VPS would be sufficient is asking for 
unnecessary trouble.


On 10/18/2012 03:18 PM, Andrew Pennebaker wrote:
GitHub  offers free hosting for code and web 
pages. The way it works is any code that happens to be HTML is 
available as if it were a traditional, hosted website. If we want a 
fairly flat website for documentation, no wiki or server running, this 
would be a convenient solution.


If, on the other hand, we want a website that serves dynamic content, 
like a wiki, we could setup a Node.js server on the free Joyent 
 cloud.


--
Cheers,

Andrew Pennebaker
www.yellosoft.us 


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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Boris Le Ninivin]

On 10/18/2012 03:21 AM, Andrew Pennebaker wrote:
I would like to see a centralized, /maintained/ website for Markdown 
documentation. Perhaps we could start a Markdown-powered wiki!

Indeed. This could be easily done with a server running nginx and ikiwiki.

On 10/18/2012 03:40 AM, Alan Hogan wrote:
I do have to warn you, however. While a number of maintainers have 
gone to great lengths to maximize interoperability, there *is* no BDFL 
(benevolent dictator for life) and there *is* no consensus on a number 
if issues, ambiguities, and extensions.


While most maintainers would *love* a big "multi-dingus" and 
exhaustive wiki, no one has committed to the effort of setting up and 
maintaining those; and not ever implementation maintainer would 
contribute.


I know you ended up here after noticing a quirk on another website, so 
I don't expect you to be that person, but I think the community 
*would* appreciate such a wiki and/or multi-dingus. Just be warned it 
will not be an easy or quick project!
This has to be a community project, not something made by only one 
person. If someone agrees to hosting this, I'd agree to set nginx and 
ikiwiki up and running for it.


On 10/18/2012 04:27 AM, Fletcher Penney wrote:

Don't reinvent the wheel:

http://babelmark.bobtfish.net/


F-
And, also, this would be AWESOME on a wiki (better yet, as a link on the 
first page).


Any ideas/volunteers ?
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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Fletcher Penney]

Don't reinvent the wheel:

http://babelmark.bobtfish.net/


F-


On Oct 17, 2012, at 10:21 PM, Andrew Pennebaker wrote:

> The big problem of a multidingus reduces to the little problems of hooking up 
> a web interface, say PHP or Rails, with a variety of Markdown parser library 
> hooks.
> 
> I fear that most of these will have to be done as backend calls, specifically 
> outputting to temporary files and echoing those to the web service. Unless a 
> majority of Markdown parsers all have PHP or Rails libs, or something.
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andrew Pennebaker
> www.yellosoft.us
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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Andrew Pennebaker]

The big problem of a multidingus reduces to the little problems of hooking
up a web interface, say PHP or Rails, with a variety of Markdown parser
library hooks.

I fear that most of these will have to be done as backend calls,
specifically outputting to temporary files and echoing those to the web
service. Unless a majority of Markdown parsers all have PHP or Rails libs,
or something.

-- 
Cheers,

Andrew Pennebaker
www.yellosoft.us
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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Fletcher Penney]

I think it depends on which language is most appropriate to the situation at 
hand or is most familiar to the service's author(s) (e.g. perl, php, C, etc.) 
and which additional features are needed, if any (e.g. footnotes, tables, math, 
citations/references, etc.)

F-

On Oct 17, 2012, at 9:21 PM, Andrew Pennebaker wrote:

> Which versions of Markdown would it be reasonable to expect most services to 
> be using by now? Do we have any usage data on the various Markdown 
> implementations?


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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Alan Hogan]

Andrew,

I love your enthusiasm.

I do have to warn you, however. While a number of maintainers have gone to 
great lengths to maximize interoperability, there *is* no BDFL (benevolent 
dictator for life) and there *is* no consensus on a number if issues, 
ambiguities, and extensions.

While most maintainers would *love* a big "multi-dingus" and exhaustive wiki, 
no one has committed to the effort of setting up and maintaining those; and not 
ever implementation maintainer would contribute.

I know you ended up here after noticing a quirk on another website, so I don’t 
expect you to be that person, but I think the community *would* appreciate such 
a wiki and/or multi-dingus. Just be warned it will not be an easy or quick 
project!

On Oct 17, 2012, at 6:21 PM, Andrew Pennebaker  
wrote:

> 
> Markdown.pl (the original implementation by John Gruber) is basically 
> abandonware at this point
> 
> I thought so! The Markdown home page is so limited/confusing.
>  
> That said, Markdown the *syntax*, is certainly alive and well in the form of 
> multiple descendant projects.
> 
> Yes. I'm happy to see Markdown in more places, especially GitHub. README.txt 
> -> README.md
> 
> I would like to see a centralized, maintained website for Markdown 
> documentation. Perhaps we could start a Markdown-powered wiki!
>  
> Not sure what implementation Stack Overflow is actually using, but clearly 
> some implementations work just fine in this regard.
> 
> Yeah, I'll post on Meta Stack Overflow to request an update of their Markdown 
> parser.
> 
> Back to the discussion on URL parsing...
> 
> Which versions of Markdown would it be reasonable to expect most services to 
> be using by now? Do we have any usage data on the various Markdown 
> implementations?
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andrew Pennebaker
> www.yellosoft.us
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Alan Hogan



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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Fletcher Penney]

Markdown.pl (the original implementation by John Gruber) is basically 
abandonware at this point, as it as not been updated in years.  In fact, as has 
been pointed out on this list, Gruber has not commented on this discussion 
group in years.

That said, Markdown the *syntax*, is certainly alive and well in the form of 
multiple descendant projects.

In fact, your example file below works just fine with MultiMarkdown, and 
presumably with peg-markdown (since I built MMD version 3 around John 
MacFarlane's peg-markdown implementation.)

Not sure what implementation Stack Overflow is actually using, but clearly some 
implementations work just fine in this regard.  Many (most?) modern 
implementations also have vastly improved performance over the original perl 
version for most documents (often by several orders of magnitude).  If they are 
using Markdown.pl, perhaps it is time that they upgrade  If not, simply 
speak with the developer of the actual implementation that is being used.


Fletcher



On Oct 17, 2012, at 8:50 PM, Andrew Pennebaker wrote:

> How can we improve URL detection in Markdown? I posted a question on Stack 
> Overflow and happened to click a URL in my post. To my surprise, it wasn't 
> functional, and it took three different, nonintuitive manipulations before I 
> achieved a functional URL. Stack Overflow says "not my problem", so I'm 
> deferring to Markdown itself.
> 
> Here's a sample Markdown document on Gist. All but the final hyperlink fail 
> to be functional. You can verify this behavior in Dingus. I'd paste my sample 
> directly in Gmail, but it would actually fix the URLs and obscure the problem.
> 
> I believe this is easily fixed by altering the regex responsible for parsing 
> [name](url)  syntax to be lazy rather than eager.
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andrew Pennebaker
> www.yellosoft.us


-- 
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Re: Trouble with parentheses in Markdown hyperlinks

[Michel Fortin]

Le 2012-10-17 à 20:50, Andrew Pennebaker  a écrit :

> How can we improve URL detection in Markdown? I posted a question on Stack
> Overflow and happened to click a URL in my post. To my surprise, it wasn't
> functional, and it took three different, nonintuitive manipulations before
> I achieved a functional URL. Stack Overflow says "not my problem", so I'm
> deferring to Markdown itself.
> 
> Here's a 
> sampleMarkdown
> document on Gist. All but the final hyperlink fail to be
> functional. You can verify this behavior in
> Dingus. I'd
> paste my sample directly in Gmail, but it would actually fix the URLs and
> obscure the problem.
> 
> I believe this is easily fixed by altering the regex responsible for
> parsing [name](url)  syntax to be lazy rather than eager.

It's not so simple (it can break other [links](http://michelf.ca)).

PHP Markdown solves this by attempting to match opening and closing parenthesis 
in the URL (which works except for some extreme cases like 
).

Also, you can wrap your URL in <>: [links](), but I'm not 
sure it'll work that well in all implementations.

-- 
Michel Fortin
michel.for...@michelf.ca
http://michelf.ca/

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