Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice

2019-04-14 Thread Justin Luth

On 1/30/19 7:26 PM, Italo Vignoli (and Sophi and Mike) wrote:

Of course, this does not mean that the current solution is the best one
and therefore there is space for improvement (which is not getting rid
of the request, as that would not be an improvement at all).


The recent LO 6.3 addition of "Tip of the Day" might be the solution 
that we are all looking for.  It has these benefits:


1.) A built-in, discoverable method of disabling the pop-up for those 
who don't want to see the message again.


2.) It cleanly fits the purpose of a "tip" - to points the user to a 
function of the program (help-get involved, help-donate) that they might 
want to learn about and explore


3.) It remove duplication of effort in the codebase.


Moving GetInvolved and Donate notifications into TipOfTheDay would 
return the infobar's status to "you must act on this in order for your 
document to function properly" (like read-only warning, or macro 
disabled warning).  It seems like a much more natural fit as 
"informational tips". Therefore I suggest converting these two infobar 
messages into Tips.


Thanks,

Justin


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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice

2019-02-16 Thread Cor Nouws
Hi Justin, all,

Justin Luth wrote on 1/30/19 6:21 AM:
> Someone on ask.libreoffice.org wrote:
> 
> “Lately, in LibreOffice 6.1.2.1 I get a nag window on top asking me to
> get involved. Are you trying to become obnoxious windows-like software?
> How do I get rid of that thing?” This succinct post is very revealing,
> and perfectly mirrors my own initial and ongoing impressions.

I do well understand that topic and your point. For me it's a sort of
little annoyance that I do pay too much attention too.
In my understanding, the bar is a step in our experimental work to get
proper attention and support for the future of the project. And surely
not putting people off, is part of that too :)

Isn't it that the user closes it with a single click?
I assume there is an setting to disable the bar at installation time?
Maybe it can be worked into a nice feature for organizations, that they
display there own message with a link to e.g. a corporate help/support
spot for the users. But ;)

I think it is interesting to get more out of the data that Mike wrote
about. With many hundreds of clicks a day, one hopes it shows up in
donations and people becoming active.
Shouldn't we try to find out how the bar is appreciated, or not, by
LibreOffice-users?

So, I do not really like it. But am not strongly against. And would be
interested to learn if it really does something (positive) and/or needs
to be in some other form.

Cheers,
Cor

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice

2019-02-16 Thread Cor Nouws
Italo Vignoli wrote on 2/15/19 5:47 PM:

> My screen reflects what Thunderbird users see. Sorry, but I have checked

I don't have it either. But was able to 'restore' it.

> with Thunderbird people, and unless you disable the visualization of the
> page - something which is possible only to tech savvy people - you see
> that screen.

Edit > Preferences .. uncheck first choice.. Not sure if that is so
technical :p
Possibly I disabled that a long time ago - in any case I would consider
that page irritating.

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice

2019-02-15 Thread Italo Vignoli
On 15/02/2019 17:38, Justin Luth wrote:

> Your screen does not reflect in any way what actually happens on any of
> my machines. And I am quite sure that I have never done anything to
> avoid seeing it.  That's my whole point. If that screen was visible to
> me or my users, I would have scripted into my setup workflow some way to
> avoid that. But I don't have any scripts for Thunderbird except for
> backup and restore. I never needed to search the internet asking how to
> hide/disable it and encounter only evasion. I didn't have to read
> through any source code in order to find answers.  Despite the fact that
> Thunderbird has publicly proclaimed that they are basically a dead,
> homeless project, they have managed to not once force their donation
> pixels onto any part of my screen.

My screen reflects what Thunderbird users see. Sorry, but I have checked
with Thunderbird people, and unless you disable the visualization of the
page - something which is possible only to tech savvy people - you see
that screen.

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice

2019-02-15 Thread Justin Luth

On 1/30/19 7:26 PM, Italo Vignoli wrote:
The fact that you do not see the request for donations from 
Thunderbird confirms what I have written in my previous message: 


Your screen does not reflect in any way what actually happens on any of 
my machines. And I am quite sure that I have never done anything to 
avoid seeing it.  That's my whole point. If that screen was visible to 
me or my users, I would have scripted into my setup workflow some way to 
avoid that. But I don't have any scripts for Thunderbird except for 
backup and restore. I never needed to search the internet asking how to 
hide/disable it and encounter only evasion. I didn't have to read 
through any source code in order to find answers.  Despite the fact that 
Thunderbird has publicly proclaimed that they are basically a dead, 
homeless project, they have managed to not once force their donation 
pixels onto any part of my screen.


When open-source projects turn to intrusive begging, the marketing 
message that I hear is that the project is dying. I start looking for 
viable alternatives at that point.  Hopefully I am once again only one 
in a million who picks up on that marketing message.


Justin

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice

2019-02-02 Thread Nigel Verity
Good idea.

There is the "About LibreOffice" item at the bottom of the "Help" menu, but 
that doesn't elaborate on the fact that LO is open source without following a 
link to the website.

An "About" item is pretty much standard on many applications - both open source 
and proprietary. My guess is that not many people ever read it as they already 
"know" what it says without having to read it.

Perhaps the "About" item should be removed from the bottom of the "Help" menu 
(indicating perhaps the lowest priority of any menu item) and prominently 
placed instead on the File menu as suggested, only with a far more compelling 
item name than "About". Plus, of course, more information on the dialog about 
how the project is developed and funded without having to branch off to the 
website.

Nige


From: Tim Lungstrom 
Sent: 02 February 2019 10:08
To: marketing@global.libreoffice.org; nigelver...@hotmail.com
Cc: LibreOffice-NA.US - Webmaster
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from 
LibreOffice


> On 30/01/2019 06:21, Justin Luth wrote:
>> Someone on ask.libreoffice.org wrote:
>>
>> “Lately, in LibreOffice 6.1.2.1 I get a nag window on top asking me to
>> get involved. Are you trying to become obnoxious windows-like software?
>> How do I get rid of that thing?” This succinct post is very revealing,
>> and perfectly mirrors my own initial and ongoing impressions.
I have not been following these posts in this thread. Yet, I wonder what
the user is talking about.

I have not seen the "nag message" while using different versions for 64
bit DEB based install.

I now use 6.1.4.2.  I have not looked into a newer version, if it has
been released yet.  I still not have seen the "get involved" nag message.

I have been using LibreOffice since the last release candidate before
the first official release of LibreOffice – version 3.3.0.4 RC in
October 2011 and replaced it with 3.3.1.2, of something like that.

I have been promoting LibreOffice Office Suite as a replacement to keep
buying newer and newer versions of MS Office – 2003 suite was last
version I have. If there is a nag message, or something that could be
thought it is a nagging message, then I would have seen it.  Of course
some people would call the message that there is a newer version of
LibreOffice as a nag message.

Well, instead of the idea of a nag message, could you add a new menu to
the File/Edit/View menu bar.  If possible, add a menu like “More Info”
to be after the “Help” menu.  Then you can have links to various
information that is not part of “getting help” options.  Then you can
have a link like “Get Involved” in the Help menu.  This way when a user
looks into the various menu options, you get more options that may link
to the various pages for the info about LibreOffice, the Document
Foundation, Marketing Info, Volunteering, and any other thing like
that.  No Nagging.  No popups except telling the user there is a newer
version of LibreOffice or the extensions you use has an upgrade.

>> Justin - volunteer developer, promoter, user-support  (who is damaged in
>> each of these capacities by this adware), and self-appointed end-user
>> advocate.
>>
>>
>> [1] It is completely unprofessional. Speaking about the “get involved”
>> pop-up, Michael Meeks writes that “No vendor (or in-house team)
>> providing an actually supported version would show this to their users”.
>>
>>
>> P.S. Sorry for not realizing that the ESC decision to remove GetInvolved
>> from 6.1.5 Stable should have been confirmed by other bodies before
>> being acted on.

Well, the P.S. states 6.1.5.x will not have the "nag" to Get Involved,
is great, but it seems to be removed in the 6.1.4.2 version.


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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice

2019-01-31 Thread Mike Saunders
Hi Jean-Francois,

On 30/01/2019 18:33, Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote:
>
> So, as thorough it might be, your
> social media monitoring is biased: (libre software) social media are not
> for John Doe, but for geeks only.

That's not completely true. Different social media platforms have
different audiences. Geeks tended to be more active on Google+ (before
Google announced its closure), whereas our Facebook page activity is
almost entirely around end users.

I talk to them every day on Facebook, and the vast majority of them are
definitely not geeky. They talk about writing letters or doing their
home finances. They ask simple technical support questions and talk
about recommending LibreOffice to their friends and family.

>> Another data point: the infobar in the app brings around 800-900 users
>> every day to the "Get involved" page on our website. Of course, we
>> cannot easily measure how many of those visitors become active
>> contributors in the project, but it's a good start IMO.
> 
> It is highly probable that these people are geeks.

Then great -- we have 800-900 geeks who are visiting our "Get involved"
page every day! Isn't that an argument in favour of keeping it? :-)

> But... John Doe is *not* the target and
> might react as Justin stated.

Many people in the community started as end users and then got more
involved, either by joining mailing lists, doing some things on the
wiki, helping on Ask etc. I've done lots of interviews on the TDF blog
over the last few years, and many community members began as regular end
users. So I don't think it's wrong to target them, IMO...

But yes, if there are better ways, we should discuss them of course!

Mike

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice

2019-01-31 Thread sophi
Hi Jean-François,
Le 30/01/2019 à 18:33, Jean-Francois Nifenecker a écrit :
> Mike,
> 
> I share what Justin has rightly stated: most users will *not*
> participate *any* software in any way. They are being using software
> because they want their job done. Point.
> 
> Le 30/01/2019 à 10:16, Mike Saunders a écrit :
>>
>> Thanks for raising this. I just want to offer my perspective:
>>
>> I closely monitor the social media channels for LibreOffice and TDF
>> (Twitter with 23,000 followers, Facebook with 54,000 page likes, Google+
>> with 16,000 followers), along with Reddit and other sites.
> 
> I'm managing ca. 1000 civil servant users which I encourage to install
> at home the very software they're using at work (namely LibreOffice).
> Most of them ignore what a social media is (well, they have heard about
> it in the news, usually for bad). So, as thorough it might be, your
> social media monitoring is biased: (libre software) social media are not
> for John Doe, but for geeks only. And, you're right, some geeks might help.

And your view might be biased by the French culture. Just compare
Telegram groups, Indonesian has almost 1650 members (are they all
geeks?) where French has only 15, add no FB group, a dead G+ one, very
small Twitter account and I'll avoid speaking about Ask. So it's an
overall point of view to be considered here on what we want to achieve.
The position saying 'because they are not aware of TDF needs, then they
don't care and there should be no change' is exactly what would
endangered our projects.
As Italo said, it's maybe no the best way to attract contributors, so
let's work on a better solution and positive moves for both TDF and
users, but better based on statistics and not only good feelings :)

Cheers
Sophie

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice

2019-01-30 Thread Jean-Francois Nifenecker

Mike,

I share what Justin has rightly stated: most users will *not* 
participate *any* software in any way. They are being using software 
because they want their job done. Point.


Le 30/01/2019 à 10:16, Mike Saunders a écrit :


Thanks for raising this. I just want to offer my perspective:

I closely monitor the social media channels for LibreOffice and TDF
(Twitter with 23,000 followers, Facebook with 54,000 page likes, Google+
with 16,000 followers), along with Reddit and other sites.


I'm managing ca. 1000 civil servant users which I encourage to install 
at home the very software they're using at work (namely LibreOffice). 
Most of them ignore what a social media is (well, they have heard about 
it in the news, usually for bad). So, as thorough it might be, your 
social media monitoring is biased: (libre software) social media are not 
for John Doe, but for geeks only. And, you're right, some geeks might help.




I've read many hundreds of feedback messages across those channels since
the release of LibreOffice 6.1, and haven't seen a *single* complaint
(or even mention) relating to the "Get involved" infobar. (Of course,
there's a chance I've missed something, especially over the Christmas
break, but I hope you see my point!)


John Doe won't complain. He'll mumble and won't understand why this $&§@ 
message is bothering him (Justin original message is clear about this).




Now, that's not to deny that some people may find it a bit naggy. But I
just want to add those data points -- that it doesn't seem to be
bothering the vast majority of users.


Not "some people". Most ot the ones I'm dealing with on a daily basis 
and who -- again -- will *never ever* go complaining anywhere.


Again, your view is biased. As stated : FOSS is targetting at geeks, not 
at the general public.


So a (not so) side question might be: who's the LibreOffice /typical/ 
user you're refferring to? Who are the ones you want to attract or retain?




Another data point: the infobar in the app brings around 800-900 users
every day to the "Get involved" page on our website. Of course, we
cannot easily measure how many of those visitors become active
contributors in the project, but it's a good start IMO.


It is highly probable that these people are geeks.



And now my personal view: I think we are absolutely right to keep it.
Even if a few people find it naggy (and again, given that I've seen no
mention of it on social media, I don't think it's many), I think it's
extremely important that we remind people: this software doesn't just
happen by magic. It's the hard work of a community and ecosystem
members. If you want it to keep improving, contribute back.


Sending this message is right. But... John Doe is *not* the target and 
might react as Justin stated.



Best,
--
Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux


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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice

2019-01-30 Thread Italo Vignoli
On 30/01/2019 16:58, Justin Luth wrote:

> I have used Thunderbird on a daily basis for over 10 years and also
> frequently set it up for all of our office users (about 50 computers). 
> I never see advertising in Thunderbird (60.2.1 64bit on Ubuntu) and I
> can't recall ever having seen it - let alone having it pop up and
> request a response to dismiss it. So quite honestly I have no idea what
> you are talking about - I am completely unaware of any Thunderbird
> advertising. However, I couldn't help immediately noticing and disliking
> the advertisement as soon as it started in LibreOffice 6.1.

I have used Thunderbird for the same time, and I have seen the request
for donations every time I have started the software (since the project
become independent from Mozilla). The image of my Thunderbird startup
screen, which is identical on my Mac and on my Ubuntu PC, is here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ykhivv6611u06qx/Screenshot%202019-01-30%20at%2017.11.13.png?dl=0.

The fact that you do not see the request for donations from Thunderbird
confirms what I have written in my previous message: only a tiny number
of users looks at what is on the screen and is positively or negatively
impacted based on his experience/background. Sorry, but you are one out
of millions of users, and even 1000 complaints - which we do not have -
would be enough to get rid of the request for involvement/donations.

Of course, this does not mean that the current solution is the best one
and therefore there is space for improvement (which is not getting rid
of the request, as that would not be an improvement at all).

-- 
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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice

2019-01-30 Thread Justin Luth

On 1/30/19 12:00 PM, Italo Vignoli wrote:

... Thunderbird - who shows the donation message at
every launch of the program, so even multiple times per day - but I have
not seen any similar complaints on Thunderbird support mailing lists.


I have used Thunderbird on a daily basis for over 10 years and also 
frequently set it up for all of our office users (about 50 computers).  
I never see advertising in Thunderbird (60.2.1 64bit on Ubuntu) and I 
can't recall ever having seen it - let alone having it pop up and 
request a response to dismiss it. So quite honestly I have no idea what 
you are talking about - I am completely unaware of any Thunderbird 
advertising. However, I couldn't help immediately noticing and disliking 
the advertisement as soon as it started in LibreOffice 6.1.



Thanks to the involvement of volunteers and to donations money we are
able to organize events around FOSDEM, the LibreOffice Conference, pay
for volunteer travels to events either internationally or locally, have
a team who manages the day to day activities of the foundation, and so
on.


Yes - and this has been happening for a very long time, without any 
assistance from pop-up, in-app advertisements.


On 1/30/19 12:16 PM, Mike Saunders wrote:

Hi Justin,

I've read many hundreds of feedback messages across those channels since
the release of LibreOffice 6.1, and haven't seen a *single* complaint
(or even mention) relating to the "Get involved" infobar.


In the ESC meeting, pretty much every person (including those 
pro-Infobar) indicated that being asked to "GetInvolved" was irritating 
when they were already involved. Nobody has seen the "Donate" request 
yet (since LO 6.2 isn't released yet), and that's why I want to avert 
the negative response that a donor will feel when his financial 
contribution is also overlooked.



And now my personal view: I think we are absolutely right to keep it.
Even if a few people find it naggy (and again, given that I've seen no
mention of it on social media, I don't think it's many), I think it's
extremely important that we remind people: this software doesn't just
happen by magic. It's the hard work of a community and ecosystem
members. If you want it to keep improving, contribute back.


The vast majority of users are incapable of meaningfully contributing 
towards any software program (except of course with money). For example, 
I would love to add tons of comments to the code - but since I don't 
understand the code well, it is better for me not to document my 
inaccurate thoughts, and I certainly do not want to turn to the help 
manual to find someone's random opinion on how to accomplish some task. 
FOSS does not want to target the general non-passionate user. It wants 
to target tech-savvy, self-motivated, idealistic folks. You know, the 
kind of people who will seek out the information they want, not those 
who must have it flashed in front of their eyes.


I do want it to keep improving.  That's why I bring up this topic - 
because what I see is definitely not an end-user improvement and this is 
the only avenue remaining for me to positively contribute.


Justin


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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice

2019-01-30 Thread Nigel Verity
When I first saw this issue this morning, my initial reaction was to agree that 
perhaps a request for donations appearing within the application is 
inappropriate but, on reconsideration, I've changed my mind.

Whenever I have been promoting the use of LO, the advantages of its open source 
heritage are usually acknowledged but the fact that it can be downloaded and 
installed without any financial outlay is almost always the deciding factor. 
Once the "sale" is made, it is likely that many users don't really consider how 
LO is developed while continuing to enjoy its benefits.

There is a big difference between displaying an unsolicited 3rd party ad in an 
application, such as is common with phone apps, and a tasteful reminder of how 
LO is funded and developed. In fact I would not even consider the latter to be 
an ad at all.

The difference between an "informative reminder" and a "nagging ad" is probably 
a combination of appropriate, considered wording and the way in which the 
reminder appears - frequency, what part of LO usage, etc.

I have to admit I was staggered to learn that Thunderbird gets more funding 
than LO. Perhaps looking closely as Thunderbird's funding methods could be 
informative.

Nige


From: Mike Saunders 
Sent: 30 January 2019 09:16
To: marketing@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from 
LibreOffice

Hi Justin,

Thanks for raising this. I just want to offer my perspective:

I closely monitor the social media channels for LibreOffice and TDF
(Twitter with 23,000 followers, Facebook with 54,000 page likes, Google+
with 16,000 followers), along with Reddit and other sites.

I've read many hundreds of feedback messages across those channels since
the release of LibreOffice 6.1, and haven't seen a *single* complaint
(or even mention) relating to the "Get involved" infobar. (Of course,
there's a chance I've missed something, especially over the Christmas
break, but I hope you see my point!)

Now, that's not to deny that some people may find it a bit naggy. But I
just want to add those data points -- that it doesn't seem to be
bothering the vast majority of users.

Another data point: the infobar in the app brings around 800-900 users
every day to the "Get involved" page on our website. Of course, we
cannot easily measure how many of those visitors become active
contributors in the project, but it's a good start IMO.

And now my personal view: I think we are absolutely right to keep it.
Even if a few people find it naggy (and again, given that I've seen no
mention of it on social media, I don't think it's many), I think it's
extremely important that we remind people: this software doesn't just
happen by magic. It's the hard work of a community and ecosystem
members. If you want it to keep improving, contribute back.

One thing I *do* see a lot on social media is a rather entitled attitude
of "LibreOffice should do X" or "Why hasn't LibreOffice got Y?". I
gently remind those people that changes and improvements only happen if
someone steps up to do them :-) So a very occasional reminder in the app
is fine by me. People are getting a massively feature-rich office suite
for completely free, after all -- they should bear in mind who makes it!

Mike




On 30/01/2019 06:21, Justin Luth wrote:
> Someone on ask.libreoffice.org wrote:
>
> “Lately, in LibreOffice 6.1.2.1 I get a nag window on top asking me to
> get involved. Are you trying to become obnoxious windows-like software?
> How do I get rid of that thing?” This succinct post is very revealing,
> and perfectly mirrors my own initial and ongoing impressions.
>
>
> First, note the user perception of this new “feature”. It is classified
> as naggy. It is not seen as a legitimate request for help, but as an
> untargeted and intrusive irritant.
>
> Secondly, it is totally unwanted. This user terms it as obnoxious, and
> references the disrespectful and heavy-handed Windows attitude that has
> driven so many of us to FOSS in the first place.
>
> And that all leads to the obvious reaction of “how can I never see this
> again.” Seeing it once is already too much, and every 90 days is not an
> improvement.
>
>
> Do we really want to market LibreOffice as yet another piece of
> unprofessional[1] beggarware? Everyone already acknowledges that
> “GetInvolved” irritates us, but now imagine the scenario where someone
> has donated to LibreOffice and a week later the donate message pops up!
> That will feel extremely offensive!
>
> Having places (like help - get involved/donate/about) where the user can
> discover and actively seek out ways to support LibreOffice is fine, but
> intentionally irritating the user base is sure to back-fire. Please, let
> us remove the infobar advertisements before they c

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice

2019-01-30 Thread Mike Saunders
Hi Justin,

Thanks for raising this. I just want to offer my perspective:

I closely monitor the social media channels for LibreOffice and TDF
(Twitter with 23,000 followers, Facebook with 54,000 page likes, Google+
with 16,000 followers), along with Reddit and other sites.

I've read many hundreds of feedback messages across those channels since
the release of LibreOffice 6.1, and haven't seen a *single* complaint
(or even mention) relating to the "Get involved" infobar. (Of course,
there's a chance I've missed something, especially over the Christmas
break, but I hope you see my point!)

Now, that's not to deny that some people may find it a bit naggy. But I
just want to add those data points -- that it doesn't seem to be
bothering the vast majority of users.

Another data point: the infobar in the app brings around 800-900 users
every day to the "Get involved" page on our website. Of course, we
cannot easily measure how many of those visitors become active
contributors in the project, but it's a good start IMO.

And now my personal view: I think we are absolutely right to keep it.
Even if a few people find it naggy (and again, given that I've seen no
mention of it on social media, I don't think it's many), I think it's
extremely important that we remind people: this software doesn't just
happen by magic. It's the hard work of a community and ecosystem
members. If you want it to keep improving, contribute back.

One thing I *do* see a lot on social media is a rather entitled attitude
of "LibreOffice should do X" or "Why hasn't LibreOffice got Y?". I
gently remind those people that changes and improvements only happen if
someone steps up to do them :-) So a very occasional reminder in the app
is fine by me. People are getting a massively feature-rich office suite
for completely free, after all -- they should bear in mind who makes it!

Mike




On 30/01/2019 06:21, Justin Luth wrote:
> Someone on ask.libreoffice.org wrote:
> 
> “Lately, in LibreOffice 6.1.2.1 I get a nag window on top asking me to
> get involved. Are you trying to become obnoxious windows-like software?
> How do I get rid of that thing?” This succinct post is very revealing,
> and perfectly mirrors my own initial and ongoing impressions.
> 
> 
> First, note the user perception of this new “feature”. It is classified
> as naggy. It is not seen as a legitimate request for help, but as an
> untargeted and intrusive irritant.
> 
> Secondly, it is totally unwanted. This user terms it as obnoxious, and
> references the disrespectful and heavy-handed Windows attitude that has
> driven so many of us to FOSS in the first place.
> 
> And that all leads to the obvious reaction of “how can I never see this
> again.” Seeing it once is already too much, and every 90 days is not an
> improvement.
> 
> 
> Do we really want to market LibreOffice as yet another piece of
> unprofessional[1] beggarware? Everyone already acknowledges that
> “GetInvolved” irritates us, but now imagine the scenario where someone
> has donated to LibreOffice and a week later the donate message pops up!
> That will feel extremely offensive!
> 
> Having places (like help - get involved/donate/about) where the user can
> discover and actively seek out ways to support LibreOffice is fine, but
> intentionally irritating the user base is sure to back-fire. Please, let
> us remove the infobar advertisements before they cause too much damage.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Justin - volunteer developer, promoter, user-support  (who is damaged in
> each of these capacities by this adware), and self-appointed end-user
> advocate.
> 
> 
> [1] It is completely unprofessional. Speaking about the “get involved”
> pop-up, Michael Meeks writes that “No vendor (or in-house team)
> providing an actually supported version would show this to their users”.
> 
> 
> P.S. Sorry for not realizing that the ESC decision to remove GetInvolved
> from 6.1.5 Stable should have been confirmed by other bodies before
> being acted on.
> 
> 

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice

2019-01-30 Thread Italo Vignoli
Increasing involvement and donations is instrumental for the success of
the project. We have an estimated user base of over 100 million unique
users, and probably a similar amount of non unique users, but we have
less donations than Thunderbird - who shows the donation message at
every launch of the program, so even multiple times per day - but I have
not seen any similar complaints on Thunderbird support mailing lists. I
think that the right approach to this issue - which, by the way, does
not seem to be an issue for many users, as I had to show a screenshot to
several LibreOffice users to explain what I was referring to (including
my wife), as they did not even notice the banner - is to improve the way
we are showing it (including, of course, the form and the place) and not
asking to get rid of it based on a number of opinions which is not
representative of our user base.

Thanks to the involvement of volunteers and to donations money we are
able to organize events around FOSDEM, the LibreOffice Conference, pay
for volunteer travels to events either internationally or locally, have
a team who manages the day to day activities of the foundation, and so
on. Missing the involvement of volunteers and the donation money, we
should probably reduce over time and then stop all activities.

I am happy to discuss a contructive way to improve the situation, with
the objective of increasing the number of involved volunteers and the
amount of donations, but I strongly oppose a simple removal of the banner.

On 30/01/2019 06:21, Justin Luth wrote:
> Someone on ask.libreoffice.org wrote:
> 
> “Lately, in LibreOffice 6.1.2.1 I get a nag window on top asking me to
> get involved. Are you trying to become obnoxious windows-like software?
> How do I get rid of that thing?” This succinct post is very revealing,
> and perfectly mirrors my own initial and ongoing impressions.
> 
> First, note the user perception of this new “feature”. It is classified
> as naggy. It is not seen as a legitimate request for help, but as an
> untargeted and intrusive irritant.
> 
> Secondly, it is totally unwanted. This user terms it as obnoxious, and
> references the disrespectful and heavy-handed Windows attitude that has
> driven so many of us to FOSS in the first place.
> 
> And that all leads to the obvious reaction of “how can I never see this
> again.” Seeing it once is already too much, and every 90 days is not an
> improvement.
> 
> Do we really want to market LibreOffice as yet another piece of
> unprofessional[1] beggarware? Everyone already acknowledges that
> “GetInvolved” irritates us, but now imagine the scenario where someone
> has donated to LibreOffice and a week later the donate message pops up!
> That will feel extremely offensive!
> 
> Having places (like help - get involved/donate/about) where the user can
> discover and actively seek out ways to support LibreOffice is fine, but
> intentionally irritating the user base is sure to back-fire. Please, let
> us remove the infobar advertisements before they cause too much damage.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Justin - volunteer developer, promoter, user-support  (who is damaged in
> each of these capacities by this adware), and self-appointed end-user
> advocate.
> 
> [1] It is completely unprofessional. Speaking about the “get involved”
> pop-up, Michael Meeks writes that “No vendor (or in-house team)
> providing an actually supported version would show this to their users”.


-- 
Italo Vignoli - Marketing & PR
email italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org
mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - skype italovignoli
hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com
The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice

2019-01-29 Thread Takeshi Abe
Hi,

I second Justin, simply because the infobar prevents users from focusing on
what they'd like to do at the moment with LibO.

Cheers,
-- Takeshi Abe

On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 08:21:05 +0300, Justin Luth  wrote:
> Someone on ask.libreoffice.org wrote:
> 
> “Lately, in LibreOffice 6.1.2.1 I get a nag window on top asking me to get
> involved. Are you trying to become obnoxious windows-like software? How do I 
> get
> rid of that thing?” This succinct post is very revealing, and perfectly 
> mirrors
> my own initial and ongoing impressions.
> 
> 
> First, note the user perception of this new “feature”. It is classified as
> naggy. It is not seen as a legitimate request for help, but as an untargeted 
> and
> intrusive irritant.
> 
> Secondly, it is totally unwanted. This user terms it as obnoxious, and
> references the disrespectful and heavy-handed Windows attitude that has driven
> so many of us to FOSS in the first place.
> 
> And that all leads to the obvious reaction of “how can I never see this
> again.” Seeing it once is already too much, and every 90 days is not an
> improvement.
> 
> 
> Do we really want to market LibreOffice as yet another piece of
> unprofessional[1] beggarware? Everyone already acknowledges that “GetInvolved”
> irritates us, but now imagine the scenario where someone has donated to
> LibreOffice and a week later the donate message pops up! That will feel
> extremely offensive!
> 
> Having places (like help - get involved/donate/about) where the user can
> discover and actively seek out ways to support LibreOffice is fine, but
> intentionally irritating the user base is sure to back-fire. Please, let us
> remove the infobar advertisements before they cause too much damage.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Justin - volunteer developer, promoter, user-support  (who is damaged in each 
> of
> these capacities by this adware), and self-appointed end-user advocate.
> 
> 
> [1] It is completely unprofessional. Speaking about the “get involved” pop-up,
> Michael Meeks writes that “No vendor (or in-house team) providing an actually
> supported version would show this to their users”.
> 
> 
> P.S. Sorry for not realizing that the ESC decision to remove GetInvolved from
> 6.1.5 Stable should have been confirmed by other bodies before being acted on.
> 
> 
> -- 
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems? 
> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/
> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

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