Re: [Marxism] A More Specific Letter on Justice and Open Debate - The Objective

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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I get that she's a racist. But to me there's a huge difference between her
writing from the perspective of a Latin American character (assuming she
did a good job of it, which she clearly didn't) and her actually
identifying as Latina (Puerto Rican) when she isn't. As a writer she can
try to put herself in the shoes of a Latina (or a Latino) character.
Writers have to do that or all their characters would just be the same
character (the writer) in different stories. But her claiming to be Latina
when she's actually white is different. That's like Rachel Dolezal claiming
to be black.

So it seems to me the Jeanine Cummins issue is not *just* that she's a
racist writer, but also that she is claiming to be someone she's not.
Rachel Dolezal weaseled her way into the NAACP because she "identified as
black". How is that different? Apart from the fact that Rachel Dolezal
seems to have meant well.


On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 12:35 PM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> *************
>
> On 7/10/20 7:39 PM, John Edmundson via Marxism wrote:
> > So being trans-racial is not OK. Fair enough. Jeanine Cummins should be
> > able to write a book from the perspective of someone with experiences
> other
> > than her own (all writers have to do that all the time) but deciding that
> > she can start "identifying as Puerto Rican" is a whole different thing.
> She
> > can't claim that the experience of*being*  Latina is hers because it's
> not.
> > Because saying you 'feel' Latina (or any other race) doesn't make you
> one.
> > Are we agreed on that?
>
> Sure you can do that. The problem was that her book was filled with
> racist stereotypes, and even worse treated like the book of the year by
> gringo critics.
>
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Re: [Marxism] A More Specific Letter on Justice and Open Debate - The Objective

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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It is interesting that "[T]his could be a reference to *American Dirt*, a
book by Jeanine Cummins — a non-Mexican white woman

who
recently began identifying as Puerto Rican — about a Mexican bookseller,
which was roundly criticized by Latinx writers and authors like Myriam Gurba

 and *Los Angeles Times *writer Esmeralda Bermudez
.
That book was featured as a part of Oprah’s Book Club, despite the fact
that Latinx journalists like Bermudez said the story was a far cry from
real-life immigrant experiences."

So being trans-racial is not OK. Fair enough. Jeanine Cummins should be
able to write a book from the perspective of someone with experiences other
than her own (all writers have to do that all the time) but deciding that
she can start "identifying as Puerto Rican" is a whole different thing. She
can't claim that the experience of *being* Latina is hers because it's not.
Because saying you 'feel' Latina (or any other race) doesn't make you one.
Are we agreed on that?

Comradely,
John

On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 9:34 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> Rank-and-file journalists answer the big-shots on Harper's
>
> https://theobjective.substack.com/p/a-more-specific-letter-on-justice
>
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-- 
"All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks."
Sarah Moore Grimke, abolitionist (1792-1873)
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Re: [Marxism] Harper's Published an Awful Open Letter About "Toleration" | The Mary Sue

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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It's not just about liberal academics whinging about a few negative emails
though. It's also about incidents like the 2019 'deplatforming' of Cindy
Sheehan.

Cheers,
John

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:34 PM A.R. G via Marxism <
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>
> So Noam Chomsky is a transphobia-defender now?
>
> This piece is garbage. Of course some of the people in the list are
> right-wing hypocrites (Bari Weiss, obviously) but the rest of this piece is
> trash. Indeed, the list of examples that the author presumes the
> signatories are criticizing don't consist of examples of people using their
> platforms to be awful. Some of them, particularly the quoting of the N-word
> show the exact opposite: that positions of power and influence are being
> used to teach the works of anti-racist luminaries like MLK and James
> Baldwin. Another example was a graphic video that showed the (graphic)
> nature of lynchings and slavery. This echoes the manipulative campaign that
> was used by neoliberal types to get rid of the communist mural at the high
> school in San Francisco that properly labelled George Washignton a slave
> owner. I wonder if any of these trigger-warning types would suggest
> shutting down the Holocaust museum because its content is graphic?
>
> That the author of this piece throws in quoting the N-word from one of
> their books with trying to dehumanize transgender people or something is
> absolute nonsense.
>
> Moreover, the author seems to have conveniently left out all of the times
> where leftist causes have faced cancellation and censorship, the most
> obvious being Palestine. I'm inclined to agree with the author that people
> criticizing you is not a form of "censorship" per se but the use of
> Twitter, Facebook, etc. to swarm on professors for making ideological faux
> pas is a deeply troubling development in my book.In my view the bigger
> issue is that this dynamic is simply ignored when the targets are leftists,
> and indeed, this piece simply erased the most prominent example of cancel
> culture and censorship on college campuses, which is the attempts to
> destroy the lives of scholars and activists for Palestine.
>
> Amith R. Gupta
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 7:04 PM Michael Meeropol via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
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> >
> > And Deirdre McCloskey is a trans-phobe?
> >
> > (answer:  She was born Donald McCloskey )
> > _
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-- 
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Re: [Marxism] Jair Bolsonaro, Brazil's President, tests positive for the coronavirus - CNN

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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I must confess that when, early on in this pandemic, my stepson (wrongly it
transpired) told me Bolsonaro had contracted the coronavirus I punched the
air and cried "YES". A bit uncharacteristic of me to react like that . . .

This morning I was able to inform him that - second time around - he really
does have it. Of course now his chances of surviving it will be
significantly higher than they would have been when I heard that fake news
because the medical staff know more about it and will probably reject any
insistence from him that they give him a dose of hydroxychloroquine.

He'll probably bounce back relatively unscathed and even more convinced of
his beliefs.

John

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 12:34 PM Dayne Goodwin via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> who is that with Brezhnev, Ioannis?
>
> On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 1:34 PM ioannis aposperites via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Now can he visit Trump and cough repeatedly in his face???
> > >
> > Well, as for style and efficacy, this method is much better:
> > https://i.pinimg.com/564x/2d/24/e3/2d24e34de899572a15cdb6561f75a542.jpg
> > JA
> >
> >
> >
> >
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-- 
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Re: [Marxism] The Struggle to Oust Duterte, Imperialism, and Capitalist Rule - COSMONAUT

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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The "Anti Terror Bill" referred to in this interview was signed into law by
Duterte yesterday.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Duterte-signs-controversial-Philippine-anti-terror-bill-into-law


John

On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 12:04 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte is pushing through the “Anti Terror
> Bill.” If it were passed, it would give Duterte dictatorial powers,
> allowing the imprisonment of any political opposition without a trial.
> However, the bill has sparked national outrage and resistance. The
> situation is volatile, and he may be forced to back down.
>
> Teodorico “Teody” Duran Navea is Secretary General of the Partido Lakas
> ng Masa (Party of the Laboring Masses – PLM), a socialist party in the
> Philippines. Navea was gracious enough to grant this interview while he
> himself is recovering from COVID-19. Thankfully, he seems to be making a
> full recovery.
>
> In this interview with Ryan Powers, recorded on June 8, Navea explains
> the political, economic, and imperialist causes driving Duterte to push
> through the bill. He also discusses the popular resistance against the
> bill and the corresponding government repression and hypocrisy. We
> publish this transcript of Ryan’s conversation with Teody with very
> minor edits, in a wish to preserve his voice and not substitute it for
> an Americanized version.
>
>
> https://cosmonaut.blog/2020/07/04/the-struggle-to-oust-duterte-imperialism-and-capitalist-rule/
>
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-- 
"All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks."
Sarah Moore Grimke, abolitionist (1792-1873)
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Re: [Marxism] Are riots revolutionary? | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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My gut reaction is that if riots were revolutionary the police wouldn't put
so much energy into using agents provocateurs to start them.  They may
allow an expression of anger but only in a way that is unsustainable,
doesn't go anywhere or build anything, and which excludes most people from
participating. They (most people) instead hide in their homes in fear and
emerge to burnt neighbourhoods.

On Sun, 31 May 2020, 06:47 Louis Proyect via Marxism, <
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>
> About a week ago, someone posted a link to a Verso book by Joshua Clover
> titled “Riot. Strike. Riot: The New Era of Uprisings” that I took a
> quick gander at on the Verso website. It stated that “Political theorist
> Joshua Clover theorizes the riot as the form of the coming
> insurrection.” I didn’t pay that much attention to it except to note
> that insurrection is a problematic term if you are a Marxist, at least
> if it is understood as anything like October 1917. There wasn’t much
> that was insurrectionary about it or for that matter neither was there
> much rioting going on in Russia. Mostly, there were mass protests
> demanding peace, bread and land.
>
> full: https://louisproyect.org/2020/05/30/are-riots-revolutionary/
>
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[Marxism] Turkish folk musician dies in hunger strike

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/07/second-member-banned-turkish-folk-group-grup-yorum-dies-hunger-strike--ibrahim-gokcek

John

-- 
The law locks up the man or woman
Who steals the goose from off the common
But leaves the greater villain loose
Who steals the common from the goose
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Re: [Marxism] Two Truths from the Pandemic No One Is Mentioning - CounterPunch.org

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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To be honest, I'm not sure who the "no one" in the title is because these
seem to be pretty widely expressed views. The green movement is certainly
arguing both pretty stridently and some mainstream people are picking up on
them too.

 Point one, while true in a sense, appears more religious than scientific,
especially when accompanied by such statements as "the earth is telling us
that the capitalist world is using her up, fouling her systems, killing off
species useful and needful to her, and no one species however sapient can
be allowed to do that." The earth hasn't "struck back", which requires some
sort of conscious or unconscious decision making. It's just that
(capitalist) human activity has pushed elements of our ecosystem to a
breaking point where mass condensing of animals into cramped environments,
whether 'wet markets' in Asia or antibiotic drenched factory farms in the
West, into conditions that could not have better replicated the petri
dishes of the 1918 trenches.

Point two too has been made loud and clear by the environmentalist movement
since the 1970s at least - probably earlier. "Small is beautiful" has been
a rallying cry of that movement since its inception. So while eliminating
the mass factory farming elements of our production systems and fetishising
huge scale 'efficiency' may well be a good plan, claiming that "no one is
mentioning" it seems odd to say the least. Any mainstream liberal
publication you open will be airing these views.

Cheers,
John

On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 12:18 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> Two truths at least are certain in this post-pandemic world:
>
> 1) Humans have so dominated the world, destroying much of non-human life
> and systems in the process, that the world has struck back in recoil and
> seeks to readjust the balance.
>
> 2) Human sustenance systems are far too large and unwieldly to be
> effective and the smaller the system or operation the more efficient,
> useful, friendly, or supportive.
>
> full:
>
> https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/05/07/two-truths-from-the-pandemic-no-one-is-mentioning/
>
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-- 
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Who steals the goose from off the common
But leaves the greater villain loose
Who steals the common from the goose
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[Marxism] [SUSPICIOUS MESSAGE] Re: WA Post: "Record government and corporate debt risks tipping point"

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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What I don't understand is how MMT can be simultaneously a progressive
approach compatible with socialism and also a good strategy for capitalist
survival. Mike Roberts seems to have similar misgivings. I think these may
have been posted here before but seem pertinent to this discussion.

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1Wqew6QP9O2Ek8dFTiizOrSlxRFkpSDcl30AoiY2WcRBgyH6-IZEe4u7bYBX5Xp2GgSAFiyQznAdoWWMyst3HXRW6CwyMzx_tVX3LvXT8e3E1FCmoW3uzom92SIDVxZUGPQWtGa5oYoKuoEeWKtRI1DvPzdoj-iLbIHK26edovgzDl4naJrPteHE7jXvUC33bHGK3IrFi7o6nd7tKudmsAfu_Xh7fs9wBiWaoU0cWXL4bwAvs1cAxKtQtrmCvUM8O5OMihhJYx-s4VxB_0ZUnyJ-1TdmwOoSUmGu0vk6uGj0dcjkrvHJwisksoVQT-mmtu4QCMRD_mjcZGaR6vCTShvkfDvZqalURBw2NurRn_CRWb8PoRYjODfFJjoe6auXn/https%3A%2F%2Fthenextrecession.wordpress.com%2F2019%2F01%2F28%2Fmodern-monetary-theory-part-1-chartalism-and-marx%2F

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1sZmYPmpVFYeL8bvtQ4xSih0Qmdw_yYtiKD1qb9uFxrswfWEPJQ_T7puAA5OITJuU3Cd4bx6v2nPxLhaDpnvTEsa4Fhu938EBos4L1-83qrnk0bfDYAAi8jzXoeKJgXXlLtrlQZGSq05rRQ0rf5NT9WWtVwMX6znDPBH8Fcev9RgNf02RxTcGDEDCirSrVn_Yd0jTmDMLeH-0soCNbtSdmdM6utx8gFiomtpTGcdbyje8cuTLIdB8cC_nS0Z146g7KelGsCA8jAvdbAR3xXhcGRe3JZU4zVDV2Ph2zpqjU7x5JlsuUon8NEpKDIuN7tFvzfcGhL0UHwynWbmtsihEbSnpQQWQg9kl0YQqYyu0HEJAmxJeE8UXHqAFRMboNshs/https%3A%2F%2Fthenextrecession.wordpress.com%2F2019%2F02%2F03%2Fmmt-2-the-tricks-of-circulation%2F

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1fDk08lfT8sc-cCnad1linEIeiyJELkx87wj31mVacm6YaGcp3KaIjEM23phQQpZihA_2ls9YiSlgkP_g2asWyPkba17hjhDRbvpDrsFl4H-rgpnehErZXd54RUF2s26nCBVr3HxjVfzYoclic8mSAT3wqRwSRFHDighlcZmytkwqTmETJWOjmyKhFQfm3zxmFa8dpl48O0dTGBnt_IR9IQw2SglZXwn6bQM_cJWAauz5yb8IlBzcfdQQtzWESc8k9HbSmO4DZ6GJL2yyBF9vroxSFE17cP4npqrTYAVG0p2DkftTB_Mdd1A_1LtIu7C0_m11gvWcn1-mdfmZSDg0YXGWC41cxDv5f8QkhTy0INuH4S6B8Ru-nukIBPdHsEaf/https%3A%2F%2Fthenextrecession.wordpress.com%2F2019%2F02%2F05%2Fmmt-3-a-backstop-to-capitalism%2F


I'm not an economist but this does seem a pretty convincing argument from a
Marxist economist.

Cheers,
John

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 1:47 PM MM via Marxism 
wrote:

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>
> > On Apr 20, 2020, at 9:09 PM, Louis Proyect  wrote:
> >
> > I'd be willing to read something written by an MMT proponent.
>
> I’m almost sure you don’t realize how that comes across. Almost.
>
> > I used to be in contact with Nathan Tankus but lost touch.
>
> I posted the link to Nathan’s new substack website earlier; it’s here:
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1zq0d1FMyn7KjXIhIKmd1Mp0PjL569ugItSKDAxlhemzmBef7CyghKWdfrLIvnft0u2Vin4L38ThsNwYWWHpj56C6xZulkCf7I4ATHti9Oof2K3miZn6BZCppFrCOpgBqbgVTWCSExJPYC28T5TcZqGIEsuxh0BdUcTiRD-njl9xXVA_Q3JhEBc5Z5NBLXZCkKE90fXUyZIEuvD9KM0H4D9qY2JTM5BVYLY1Orxof0zsQPjwK5rYdPJflAELZQr4F9PlkNkQHcFsg-46HRvgK5h7zPDxN6PTieFoLmwHyBuThcltV34dBewNRFCkL0abCEATAZMyc78QB1Opx0B-t4HEvrJ-kqCT0o_vbe1IT2Ny5oG2mnMfL_KoYL7q6M7lJngJ2vBVqwwYZf1dYSfgWEQ/https%3A%2F%2Fnathantankus.substack.com%2F
>
> > Much of what I've heard about MMT seems geared to G7 nations.
>
>
> The first thing you say here is a nearly universal misunderstanding based
> on a simple failure to use Google. The podcast I posted is the best single
> source I know of, and frankly I don’t have a lot of patience with anyone
> who isn’t willing to listen to it. Fadhel is incredibly busy — he gave more
> than 400 presentations last year alone, in dozens of countries.
>
> > If it was so easy to lift a country up by its own bootstraps, it seems
> made to order for the global South. Right?
>
> Who said it was easy? This is a stupid, ignorant comment. It’s beneath you.
>
> > So, why hasn't it been adopted universally?
>
> Believe it or not, we’re working on it. This is from South Africa, less
> than 24 hours ago:
>
> Former Treasury official Donaldson says Bank can buy up to R20bn of bonds
> a week
>
> Current shocks to global and domestic demand mean inflation is not an
> immediate concern, says former Treasury official
>
> BL PREMIUM
> 20 April 2020 - 05:10 Lukanyo Mnyanda
> The Reserve Bank should scale up its bond purchases to as much as R20bn a
> week to help reduce borrowing costs for the government as it seeks to fund
> emergency measures to deal with the Covid-19 crisis, according to one of
> the economists briefing advisers and officials in the presidency.
>
> That would be a major escalation in the use of the Bank’s firepower after
> deputy governor Fundi Tshazibana <
> 

[Marxism] [SUSPICIOUS MESSAGE] Re: Prepare For The Ultimate Gaslighting | Cognoscenti

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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I got sucked into this. Then I came to this part:

The economy is not, at its core, evil. Brands and their products create
millions of jobs. Like people — and most anything in life — there are
brands that are responsible and ethical, and there are others that are not.
They are all part of a system that keeps us living long and strong. We have
lifted more humans out of poverty through the power of economics than any
other civilization in history. Yes, without a doubt, Americanism can be a
force for good.

But, at the same time, its flaws have been laid bare for all to see. It doesn’t
work for everyone
.
It’s responsible for great destruction. Its intentions have been perverted,
and the protection it offers has disappeared. In fact, it’s been brought to
its knees by one pangolin (we have reason to believe
).
We have got to do better and find a way toward a responsible free market.

John

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 12:17 PM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> Pretty soon, as the country begins to figure out how to “reopen” and
> move forward, very powerful forces will try to convince us all to get
> back to normal.
>
> Billions of dollars will be spent on advertising, messaging and media
> content to make you feel comfortable again. It will come in traditional
> forms — a billboard here, commercials there — and in new-media forms,
> like memes.
>
>
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1TJ1nXO2LQF_YNiIg9COe99Cc6NcU1EknH8MGMB6XKW2HnNb6CwYi_OnS3mh0gq_E2NZ4BNMvUuBRZOnfFMDq1BBh6-0arjg8lEHw4vBKJGcbNl_Uxslvz8kDKIRGj9aXRYbHNC6P7BVMOqcTmotP5vimbLQSUsP-5CHPoOqLldrLthde-ODVlc4D6B7E6DW3JOgOWJaNSl2CkoBLBifqbGneTwym_z4-3M2_nRh9asFS9EJcWF5TXUMqbWxGyCfhLjPG89AE5tNjFLnNPFO09uqz1pT92WEnlT6j1Ghp9RV-PHRpPfPF0QgS40RbujnjXyPJ6laCgYz6neXkrWzHatZ1OQ9Mqtrerrdg-2HDiGo6kMEkKllHNJmlJxQkOlYC38ClK55VW7owOeuT8nuUdA/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wbur.org%2Fcognoscenti%2F2020%2F04%2F14%2Fgaslighting-coronavirus-julio-vincent-gambuto
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[Marxism] It was only a matter of time . . .

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/13/sanders-endorses-biden-183961


“Today, I am asking all Americans — I'm asking every Democrat; I’m asking
every independent; I’m asking a lot of Republicans — to come together in
this campaign to support your candidacy, which I endorse, to make certain
that we defeat somebody who I believe is the most dangerous president in
the modern history of this country,” Sanders told Biden.

“I will do all that I can to see that that happens, Joe,” Sanders pledged,
after calling Trump a racist, a sexist, a xenophobe and a religious bigot
who botched the nation’s initial response to the coronavirus pandemic.

Bleah,

John


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Re: [Marxism] The Leaked Labour Party Report Is Shameful. It’s Time for an Investigation.

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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And concludes with, "For all those socialists in the Labour Party, there is
one final lesson: don’t let this demoralize you. Stay in the party and seek
justice. As this document makes clear, the very worst elements of our party
would be only too happy for you to leave." Yawn . . .

Cheers,
John

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 10:47 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> Casual snobbery. Sexist and racist commentary. Clandestine plotting.
> Contempt for democracy. A sense of privilege and entitlement.
>
> This is not the Bullingdon Club, it is what runs through the messages
> revealed in the leaked document which found its way online yesterday.
>
> Many of its revelations are truly shocking.
>
> It shows that some of the most senior employees of the Labour Party held
> its elected leadership in contempt, despised their own party members and
> even acted in a conspiratorial manner that undermined our 2017 general
> election campaign.
>
> https://jacobinmag.com/2020/4/labour-party-report-corbyn-2017-election
>
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[Marxism] [SUSPICIOUS MESSAGE] Re: This Pandemic Will Lead to Social Revolutions

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Interesting that they're worried. "The great pandemic of 2020 is
therefore an ultimatum to those of us who reject populism. It demands that
we think harder and more boldly, but still pragmatically
,
about the underlying problems we confront, including inequality. It’s a
wake-up call to all who hope not just to survive the coronavirus, but to
survive in a world worth living in", could have been written by Robert
"Save Capitalism" Reich.

https://secure-web.cisco.com/11PqIq6c7NMjryvRiQzf5wOCveo2KBK-W8_4wQW5dKxQqW-e3quxZ_6WoxXBTjsDLeCWdOjddizD-JS0qxjk8pYBc1DAA8wBdaxDE-TKm-r5LDdYsI6SCsogtFQmOJHfcrB1mw6ik3Vk-6GvCsieiLBPhPMyj3o80kftF-M2I3wG2Xg9kikMr-JmSEpjPXVQrrgRyu-8ME8zf87j8JGgbiIzYuq42xfSuZq5VCaHk96misbE9la9M-3OJm1e-VZRit6VzSsU_-LJisghR1i7pYFkEnS-cza-q35i4jKi5TuUgYFlPeyJ67YlGLYfSApYJjSnJpYDoJr9wimFqKkN3vkPBpCn5BaFnS388CTt-B4hUdc_ssiXlTClPsQHWWtMc/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fcommentisfree%2F2020%2Fapr%2F12%2Famericas-billionaire-class-donations

Cheers,
John

It seems quite a few people in the liberal wing of the capitalist class are
feeling a bit jittery right now.
Cheers,
John

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 12:47 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1ZYIX3k5QSTZu-_kfjN1lxCK6jr3EXUKYq0uJ6mO6jFALaufwJblk1HJCgjf8MgDZR3mNin8hC0AHZ9SUOaidIYfRq_7Wir-7jnoHASAyeBOfGmoJGfvNsfgSD8JnpLVqjrHLmk-h9-KF9DuCkQXGjuQPZgBJ1lbRNUoqTWsE6v0z5j_gYWR24P-9zBO-NUsk5WZsgCQGhvLbI2BFiZb-hZA7ltYJPSfFTkJHhLxeDzrz4kV8iO97HBLK03qWrBf7pl4lq_7VpRKJ-g4S1cbkFxXOs8AGiqPIE6mTcZ3Ftx9NxFUTsWTBws3zCN_L6Frqo4sgKt5Cv2LX14ModNikxpebNWlAmGcgDU8ag0DG0ODaxpBiRRi0oIUbvtqyzWHYpRFjROdZGvWfZvBeZthpAw/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Famp%2Fopinion%2Farticles%2F2020-04-11%2Fcoronavirus-this-pandemic-will-lead-to-social-revolutions
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Re: [Marxism] South Africa: A Step towards Dictatorship?

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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It seems to me that that exact issue has been well covered on this list.

Cheers,
John

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 5:48 AM John Reimann via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> The measures taken to slow or stop the spread of this pandemic are
> necessary. It is also inevitable that the capitalist class will use these
> measures to try to increase their power over the working class. The one
> doesn't rule out the other, nor should we be ignoring either side of this
> equation.
>
> But what most socialists do seem to be ignoring is the most important class
> aspect of this disaster, the aspect that is the very basis of it. I am
> referring to the clash between capitalist development and the laws of
> nature. To be more specific: How habitat loss and factory farming are
> together responsible for the spread of these new zoonotic diseases.
>
> John Reimann
>
> --
> *“In politics, abstract terms conceal treachery.” *from "The Black
> Jacobins" by C. L. R. James
> Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
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But leaves the greater villain loose
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Re: [Marxism] Corbynism Lost, Sandersism is Losing: Why Working Within Capitalist Parties Fails | Left Voice

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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I do think a Sanders legacy will be the readmittance of the word socialism
as a positive into US political language, even though he isn't an actual
socialist.

Cheers,
John

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 7:48 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> On 4/5/20 3:16 PM, John Obrien via Marxism wrote:
> > The actual truth is that the word: socialist and the concepts of what
> socialism is, have been brought to millions
> > by both the 2016 and 2020 Bernie Sanders for U. S. President Campaigns -
> Not by these sectarians.
>
> Odd. Sanders made a speech equating socialism with FDR's New Deal. So
> maybe the idea is to resurrect the word communism. Or maybe ask the
> Sandernistas to call themselves Democratic Capitalist Socialists. Or
> better yet, take any books you own by Karl Marx and burn them.
>
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Re: [Marxism] Relief Package is neither stimulus nor workers' lifeline, it’s again massive bailout to tottering corporations By Mike Whitney

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Also, you can't spin slinging the word cocksucker at someone as an insult
as ""I'm sorry I shouldn't -- there's some
people who get offended when I say 'cocksucker' in a derogatory way. I love
having my
cock sucked. And I respect all cocksuckers." Does he really think we're
going to believe that when he uses the term as a pejorative, we're going to
think, ah, right, he's just letting us know how much "respect" he has for
the person?

I agree that language choice is not the highest priority issue at the
moment but he called his political opponents slags, whores and faggots I
think he'd raise a few eyebrows and rightly so. Choice of words always
matters.

Cheers,
John

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 1:18 PM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> *
>
> On 3/31/20 7:42 PM, J.B. Nicholson via Marxism wrote:
> > Around 16 minutes into https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX3DDvrbPmM he
> > addresses this choice of language from himself. He said, "I'm sorry I
> > shouldn't -- there's some people who get offended when I say
> > 'cocksucker' in a derogatory way. I love having my cock sucked. And I
> > respect all cocksuckers.". I remain unconvinced that petty namecalling
> > and ugly language is the important take-away message as people lose
> > their lives during this pandemic and now stand to lose their income and
> > homes (maybe even more) even if they live, all while seeing their
> > self-described "progressive" Congressional representatives and so-called
> > "progressive" media support the largest business bailout without a fight.
>
> This is a curse used against man, not women. Dore knows this but evades
> its obvious meaning. Dore is a two-bit shock jock whose politics are
> coming from the same general area as Chapo Trap House and targeting the
> same market. A few years from now when this Sandernista crap has passed
> its shelf life, we'll look back at Jacobin, DSA, Joe Rogan, Jimmy Dore,
> A. O-C and wonder what the fuck was wrong with the left at the time. Put
> briefly: careerism.
>
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Re: [Marxism] Relief Package is neither stimulus nor workers' lifeline, it’s again massive bailout to tottering corporations By Mike Whitney

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Sorry, didn't see that John O'Brien had already made the point I was trying
to make.

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 1:51 PM John Edmundson 
wrote:

> Also, you can't spin slinging the word cocksucker at someone as an insult
> as ""I'm sorry I shouldn't -- there's some
> people who get offended when I say 'cocksucker' in a derogatory way. I
> love having my
> cock sucked. And I respect all cocksuckers." Does he really think we're
> going to believe that when he uses the term as a pejorative, we're going to
> think, ah, right, he's just letting us know how much "respect" he has for
> the person?
>
> I agree that language choice is not the highest priority issue at the
> moment but he called his political opponents slags, whores and faggots I
> think he'd raise a few eyebrows and rightly so. Choice of words always
> matters.
>
> Cheers,
> John
>
> On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 1:18 PM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
>>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
>> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
>> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
>> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
>> *
>>
>> On 3/31/20 7:42 PM, J.B. Nicholson via Marxism wrote:
>> > Around 16 minutes into https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX3DDvrbPmM he
>> > addresses this choice of language from himself. He said, "I'm sorry I
>> > shouldn't -- there's some people who get offended when I say
>> > 'cocksucker' in a derogatory way. I love having my cock sucked. And I
>> > respect all cocksuckers.". I remain unconvinced that petty namecalling
>> > and ugly language is the important take-away message as people lose
>> > their lives during this pandemic and now stand to lose their income and
>> > homes (maybe even more) even if they live, all while seeing their
>> > self-described "progressive" Congressional representatives and
>> so-called
>> > "progressive" media support the largest business bailout without a
>> fight.
>>
>> This is a curse used against man, not women. Dore knows this but evades
>> its obvious meaning. Dore is a two-bit shock jock whose politics are
>> coming from the same general area as Chapo Trap House and targeting the
>> same market. A few years from now when this Sandernista crap has passed
>> its shelf life, we'll look back at Jacobin, DSA, Joe Rogan, Jimmy Dore,
>> A. O-C and wonder what the fuck was wrong with the left at the time. Put
>> briefly: careerism.
>>
>> _
>> Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
>> Set your options at:
>> https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/johnedmundson4%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> The law locks up the man or woman
> Who steals the goose from off the common
> But leaves the greater villain loose
> Who steals the common from the goose
>


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Re: [Marxism] COVID-19 Crisis: When Bourgeois Sources Reveal the Truth

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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The issue here, as the article states is not about conspiracy but
opportunity. But between those two can be a vast chasm. We had a series
highly destructive earthquakes (and thousands of aftershocks) in
Christchurch, NZ where I live nearly ten years ago. There was no conspiracy
to beat up the seriousness of them - in fact I went to my step son's school
singing event and the then Minister of Education (National Party, the
approximate equivalent of the Tories) made an off hand remark about not
letting "a few little earthquakes" stop us. Likewise, the Earthquake
Recovery Minister and various bureaucrats on a number of occasions played
down the seriousness and tried to claim things were progressing more
quickly than we all knew they were. And of course, the responses were
bourgeois response. No seizing the opportunity to plan the rebuild of the
city centre as a state of the art sustainable people centred showpiece. No
plan that saw the poorer East of the city having its needs addressed as a
priority. Because bourgeios governments think in bourgeois ways.

Likewise now. The latest figures put the infection numbers in the 700,000s
and deaths at about 35,000. So a mortality rate of about 5% (probably more
like 2% when the asymptomatic and otherwise undiagnosed are factored in).
And that's because governments have taken pretty drastic steps. NZ is in a
virtually total lock down for non-essential services. No bourgeoisie
benefits from locking down the country, telling the workers to stay home
and stop producing surplus value and, in New Zealand's case upping the
national debt further by paying a wage subsidy to stay at home (and making
clear that employers who pocket the subsidy rather than pay it to their
staff will be prosecuted.) This is damaging to the economy. Yes, of course
the government and business will try to blame the recession (or depression
if that occurs) on Covid 19; it's what they do. But to have taken lesser
measures would have been grossly irresponsible. Johnson (UK), Morrison
(Aus) and Trump (USA) have taken huge risks in that direction and may yet
pay a horrific (it already is horrific) price.

John

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 8:04 AM RKOB via Marxism 
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>
> COVID-19 Crisis: When Bourgeois Sources Reveal the Truth
>
> On the plans and motivations of the ruling classes behind the global
> mass lock down and the suppression of democratic rights
>
> by Michael Pröbsting, 31 March 2020
>
>
> https://www.thecommunists.net/worldwide/global/covid-19-crisis-when-bourgeois-sources-reveal-the-truth/
>
>
> --
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[Marxism] [SUSPICIOUS MESSAGE] Re: [SUSPICIOUS MESSAGE] Re: There is a god

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Should sneeze, or am I being too harsh?

Cheers,
John

On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 2:47 PM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> *****
>
> On 3/27/20 8:30 PM, John Edmundson via Marxism wrote:
> >
> > Bojo gets the bug:
> >
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1FkIMS7XXxq7CWJJC0X00umyYbnh2fniVuUejW5EpElHrbJeITlCtI6V6blqvi7XIF-FSne_5nSNE4pApW3xlH2xJeCc0ApfUuSX-Mfie8GIDPDvT6qEL1xcnZSxC2YVIQIjsNWkygu4jHlycTtV-W3HiweER8puDN_ovj_pbusChw8054vszMPMPBxiL2Ekdo_30cRNjVjPlX5dTpIBa6nNMYwIwWiA0-M9lHcnPXfAeXZTZNdv6NB5KaSBOIG8fqjX0PSePhGY1OEW-Evo0cCx354yy_Rm_sbLdcM9JpPjjD8RWnbUsPqmRYf2Kuz7DY4Htbwil9-NjoVx76EoczPSga7PR_wajLdGIewYAellWiPsNdBXIsJYuXvSJQPLt/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2F2020%2Fmar%2F27%2Fnonchalant-boris-johnson-accused-of-covid-19-complacency
> >
> >
> > Now he's self-isolating . . .
> >
> > Cheers,
> > John
> >
>
>
> Like I said in my CounterPunch article today:
>
> Ironically, the susceptibility of poor people to the disease through
> their largely service-oriented jobs working as doormen, janitors, maids,
> security guards, hospital orderlies, etc. threatens the rich as well.
> Viruses, like zombies, are equal opportunity killers. Walking past some
> hedge fund manager on the street, Julio Jiminez might sneeze, after all.
>
>
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1qa9DYSM0wME5Buq1PF83uCYx-S6zufAkyZuvs2zRgBLjFu4hj-nEhEFxC_-NDx6VrhOeLDML-KaFYoYVBGlRTgVe-92d8y6yVi4xqeV1IVGCIONV9h9DGRYJ3ELahgBM3yZPKnQEv7Z3xW9pGuuPd0MqPrEDXGyPYpWMHy45gXCfUhWHLKTdjfu3zJJLwb4OYXMM7rCbMuCaRLPI8oZTKwU4hST_Got98ZPuTx5yut4H9UbQox-3cRQHc47ovQI8aT5Zrn6Ce4qyV4o_TlRRwVAcM6G7M7TnX79ogry83LE4rFL_DCMV8dkg3LWWUp-iFhlkXvBZrG3v0kwe6J4Nkc850zKIScvrax-RMyu82HreHItzjr72W84T1agUoAjj/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.counterpunch.org%2F2020%2F03%2F27%2Flife-and-death-in-the-epicenter%2F
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[Marxism] There is a god

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Bojo gets the bug:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/27/nonchalant-boris-johnson-accused-of-covid-19-complacency


Now he's self-isolating . . .

Cheers,
John

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[Marxism] Gilead profits off antiviral

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Or as Louis would put it, dog bites man . . .

https://theintercept.com/2020/03/23/gilead-sciences-coronavirus-treatment-orphan-drug-status/


I hope this hadn't already been posted by someone else.

Essentially Gilead took at least $79 million in federal money, developed
the drug and got it classified as a treatment for a "rare disease". The
financial implications for them are gargantuan, the medical  implications
for poor and working people horrific . . .

John

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Re: [Marxism] Idlib: Putin-Erdoğan Deal is a Sell-Out of the Syrian Revolution!

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Was it not already Marxism 101 that Turkey and Russia would have more in
common with each other as capitalist powers in the region than either would
have with a revolutionary Syria? Therefore it would be obvious that at some
point, in order to avoid a war with each other they would be willing to
come up with a deal that would sell the Syrians short. I don't think anyone
needed to be claiming great prophetic skills to see that outcome in the
frame.

Cheers,
John

On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 12:17 PM mkaradjis . via Marxism <
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>
> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 6:56 PM RKOB via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>
> wrote:
> I agree that "This sell-out deal was almost as predictable as night
> becoming day". However, it is one thing to say so AFTER such an event has
> happened or to warn about such a danger AHEAD of it.If comrades have
> written such warning/predictions ahead of it, please forward the respective
> link.
>
> Reply:
> Well, since you're responding to me, when I wrote that Turkey's attacks
> smashing up Assad's genocide-arsenal and downing warplanes deserves the
> total support of humanity, I followed this with:
> obviously I am not saying rebels should trust Turkey or subordinate
> themselves or put much faith in Turkish actions; the reality is that Turkey
> will do little, caught up as it is in deals with Assad's owners, Russia and
> Iran. Turkey did nothing to prevent the cities of the revolution falling;
> we all know why. However, Turkey also has 3.7 million Syrian refugees, the
> highest number of refugees in the world by far, and it cannot handle
> another million or two crossing the border; right now it is blocking them,
> so the displaced are trapped between Assad and Putin's genocidal bombing
> and Turkey's wall. To the extent that this forces Turkey to draw a line
> somewhere, in the northern half of Idlib, to keep it, not as a centre of
> revolution obviously, but as a giant refugee camp, we must say: GOOD. Not
> anywhere good enough of course, but that is now done. No-one ever expected
> the US or Turkey or Gulf countries to support a revolution and they didn't,
> but if Turkey's own needs now correspond to protecting civilians from
> slaughter, then that must be supported.
>
> Seems a pretty clear description of exactly what occurred.
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Re: [Marxism] David Brooks gets it right

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Really? "It’s still better to work the room than storm the barricades"
"gets it right"? It might be true that that's how the Democratic Party and
bourgeois politics works but how is that "right" to a Marxist.

And as for "If Joe Biden wins the nomination but loses to Donald Trump . .
. young progressives will turn on the Democratic establishment with
unprecedented fury. . .”  and  "If Biden wins the White House but doesn’t
deliver . . . the populist uprisings of 2024 will make the populist
uprisings of
today look genteel by comparison." Is this not the same old Leninist
wishful thinking (support the Labour Party like a rope supports a hanging
man) that the left has grimly clung to for the last 100 years. When Lenin
said that, the British Labour Party had never been tested in government.
The Democratic Party has been given more than enough opportunity to show
its true colours. A Biden Presidency will be exactly the "restoration or a
return to normalcy" that David Brooks can't see happening. Four years of
"at least we got rid of Trump, now be grateful and swallow this dead rat".
 I'm no Sandernista (I don't even live in the States, as my spelling will
attest) but I just can't see this Biden propaganda piece ("Let's just be
grateful we've re-found unity in the Dems") ringing true.

Brooks in this very article notes that Sanders has been unable to get that
much discussed surge of younger voters out to back him. His is a failed
parliamentary strategy. If there had been a mass movement in support of
Sanders, what he said may have had a ring of truth. In the absence of any
such movement, it sounds to me like a fantasy.

Cheers,
John

On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 8:49 AM John Reimann via Marxism <
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> *
>
> "I don’t know about you, but the election results this week filled me with
> more hope than I’ve felt in years. It felt like somebody turning down the
> volume.
>
> The angry and putrid shouting that has marked the last four years — and
> that would mark a Trump vs. Sanders campaign — might actually come to an
> end. Suddenly we got a glimpse of a world in which we can hear each other
> talk, in which actual governance can happen, in which gridlock can be
> avoided and actual change can come.
>
> But the results carried a more portentous message as well. For those of us
> who believe in our political system, it’s put up or shut up time. The
> establishment gets one last chance.
>
> If Joe Biden wins the nomination but loses to Donald Trump in the general
> election, young progressives will turn on the Democratic establishment with
> unprecedented fury. “See? We were right again!” they’ll say. And maybe
> they’ll have a point.
>
> If Biden wins the White House but doesn’t deliver real benefits for
> disaffected working-class Trumpians and disillusioned young Bernie Bros,
> then the populist uprisings of 2024 will make the populist uprisings of
> today look genteel by comparison. “The system is rotten to the core,”
> they’ll say. “It’s time to burn it all down.”
>
> Some people are saying a Biden presidency would be a restoration or a
> return to normalcy. He’ll be a calming Gerald Ford after the scandal of
> Richard Nixon.
>
> But I don’t see how that could be. The politics of the last four years have
> taught us that tens of millions of Americans feel that their institutions
> have completely failed them. The legitimacy of the whole system is still
> hanging by a thread. The core truth of a Biden administration would be
> bring change or reap the whirlwind.
>
> There would be no choice but to somehow pass his agenda: a climate plan,
> infrastructure spending, investments in the heartland, his $750 billion
> education plan and health care subsidies. If disaffected voters don’t see
> tangible changes in their lives over the next few years, it’s not that one
> party or another will lose the next election. The current political order
> will be upended by some future Bernie/Trump figure times 10.
>
> This week’s results carried a few more lessons:
>
> Democrats are not just a party; they’re a community. In my years of
> covering politics I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything like what happened
> in the 48 hours after South Carolina — millions of Democrats from all
> around the country, from many different demographics, turning as one and
> arriving at 

Re: [Marxism] Isabel dos Santos and the African lumpen-bourgeoisie | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Start bringing out the bodies https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51224655

On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 11:59 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> Thirty years ago, I was part of a Tecnica delegation that visited the
> African National Congress headquarters in Lusaka, Zambia. We were there
> to discuss the feasibility of a technical aid project for the ANC and
> the frontline states with Thabo Mbeki, the future president of
> post-apartheid South Africa. Back then, the term frontline referred to a
> group of other sub-Saharan nations that were also fighting for liberation.
>
> Chief among them was Angola that had defeated the Portuguese colonial
> army and gained independence in 1975. However, peace did not ensue.
> Three rival guerrilla armies began to fight for control over the newly
> liberated country. The international left identified with the Popular
> Movement for the Liberation of Angola (MPLA). Unfortunately, the MPLA
> had to contend with both the National Front for the Liberation of Angola
> (FNLA) and the National Union for the Total Independence of Angola
> (UNITA). Israel backed the FNLA, an alliance that most would view as
> unsavory. However, China also backed the FNLA, which only goes to show
> that Maoism had its own unsavory aspects. As for UNITA, it was wholly
> reliant on CIA support and guilty of the same kind of war crimes the
> Nicaraguan contras were carrying out.
>
> full:
>
> https://louisproyect.org/2020/01/24/isabel-dos-santos-and-the-african-lumpen-bourgeoisie/
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Re: [Marxism] Global Research discusses tragic airliner crash

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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No, I'm saying if their "false claim" argument about Iran turns out to be
true, which it is, then their parallel "false claim" about MH17 is also
true. Sorry I was being a bit too facetious and it didn't come across
clearly in a brief message. I am as convinced that Russia was responsible
for MH17 as I am that Iran was responsible for 752. Haven't they actually
tracked the missile back to a specific Russian anti-aircraft unit?

Cheers,
John

On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 2:26 PM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> *************
>
> On 1/13/20 8:10 PM, John Edmundson via Marxism wrote:
> > One bit I would agree with them on, in the light of Iran's admission is
> > this parallel:
> >
> > "Falsely claiming an Iranian missile may have brought down Ukraine
> Airlines
> > Flight 752 is similar to wrongfully accusing Russia for downing Malaysian
> > Airlines MH17 on July 17, 2014 in eastern Ukraine airspace."
> >
> > Cheers,
> > John
>
> What are you saying? That it wasn't a Russian missile that brought down
> MH17?
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Re: [Marxism] Global Research discusses tragic airliner crash

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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One bit I would agree with them on, in the light of Iran's admission is
this parallel:

"Falsely claiming an Iranian missile may have brought down Ukraine Airlines
Flight 752 is similar to wrongfully accusing Russia for downing Malaysian
Airlines MH17 on July 17, 2014 in eastern Ukraine airspace."

Cheers,
John

On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 7:56 AM Richard Fidler via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> From the egg on our faces department at Global Research, the article
> (still there) is now preceded by this:
>
> "Update
>
> "The latest information suggests that the Ukraine plane was brought down
> by a missile, following statements emanating from the Iranian government."
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Marxism [mailto:marxism-boun...@lists.csbs.utah.edu] On Behalf Of
> Ken Hiebert via Marxism
> Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2020 1:46 PM
> To: rfid...@ncf.ca
> Subject: [Marxism] Global Research discusses tragic airliner crash
>
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>
> As of this morning, this article still appears on the Global Research
> website.
> I have omitted some of the article.
> ken h
>
> “Fake Intelligence”? Washington Blames Iran for Ukraine Airliner Crash.
> Was the Plane Brought down by a Missile?
> Stephen Lendman
>
> https://www.globalresearch.ca/blaming-iran-ukraine-airliner-crash/5700207
>  >
>
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] Behind the attack on New York Times Project 1619 | Louis Proyect

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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"In a more general sense, how North America developed would have been a lot
more similar to the development of India/Pakistan or Nigeria - or even
Ireland - than it was, with the difference being that outright slavery
would have been woven into the overall fabric of US society and the US
economy even more than it was."

I would have thought more like Australia. In Nigeria, Ireland and
India/Pakistan, there were millions of people who were ruled over by a
British minority. In Australia, with the obvious exception of slavery, the
pattern of colonisation (convict colonies, free European settlers) was
similar to that of America. The principle of terra nullius - ie extinguish
any "native title", drive off or kill the prior inhabitants and settle the
country as though it were empty - was applied in both cases. Similarly in
New Zealand, except Maori proved too difficult to simply eliminate with the
resources Britain was willing to commit, so a treaty was implemented
instead and the land still subsequently confiscated in many cases. In
Ireland too, the Irish were widely deprived of their land but they still
remained as a potential workforce. In America, the indigenous population
were not seen as such, by and large, hence the importation of slaves, which
is the main factor that makes America different.

On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 7:56 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> On 12/27/19 1:17 PM, John Reimann via Marxism wrote:
> >   (As far as the Native
> > Americans - they were the ones who truly had no interest in the outcome
> of
> > the Revolution since British troops would have been used to slaughter
> them
> > like the American troops were after the Revolution.)
>
> It's more complicated than that. The British tended to be more
> supportive of native land claims because they had no vested interest in
> their removal. It was the colonists who were far more threatening for
> the simple reason that they coveted Indian lands.
>
> Joseph Brant, the Mohawk leader, fought alongside the British in the
> same manner that some slaves signed up with Lord Dunsmore. When
> Washington was victorious over the British, the consequences for the
> Mohawks was disastrous. Their villages were burned to the ground and
> their women and children slaughtered along with the men. General
> Sullivan carried out this attack. My village in upstate NY is in
> Sullivan County, named after this war criminal and racist.
>
> As for the British and slavery, this article is worth reading:
>
>
> https://www.counterpunch.org/2011/05/23/was-the-american-revolution-fought-to-save-slavery/
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Re: [Marxism] Rich Nations Block All Progress at U.N. Climate Talks

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Dog bites man . . .

Interesting article though.

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 2:37 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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> https://theintercept.com/2019/12/18/un-climate-cop25/
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Re: [Marxism] British election results

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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"Under a Johnson parliamentary dictatorship, years of volatility, conflict
and crisis lie ahead, erupting in an explosion of protest which could well
bring it crashing to its downfall. In countries around the world, from
Europe to Africa, the Middle East to Latin America, tens of thousands are
marching on the streets, braving police bullets and in many cases
overthrowing their oppressors. Britain is plunging into the turmoil that is
already gripping at least thirty countries throughout the rest of the
world. Let Boris Johnson chortle in his moment of glory while he can. He
least of all will be equipped to withstand the era of revolution and
resistance that is sweeping the world."

Sounds more like a victory than a defeat then.

Cheers,
John

On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 2:16 PM John Reimann via Marxism <
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>
> Roger Silverman writes:
> "This is no time for glib slogans. This is a serious defeat; a disaster. It
> clears the way for the most brutal Tory attacks yet seen on our living
> standards and our democratic rights. It will destroy the last remaining
> vestiges of the welfare state established 75 years ago. It will at least
> for a period demoralise a generation of youth desperate for the chance of a
> future. And it puts at risk the huge advances made in the last four years
> towards the reconquest of the Labour Party as the party of the working
> class and the 99%.
>
> "In a lesser-known story by Lewis Carroll, there is a scene where the
> masses are rioting in the streets demanding: “Less Bread! More Taxes!”. In
> Victorian England, that was a piece of playful nonsense fantasy, along with
> the Cheshire Cat’s grin or the Mad Hatter’s Tea Party. In 21st century
> Britain, the population have actually in real life elected a grotesque
> pantomime prime minister who could easily have walked straight out of Alice
> In Wonderland, promising exactly that very programme
>
> "Under a Johnson parliamentary dictatorship, years of volatility, conflict
> and crisis lie ahead, erupting in an explosion of protest which could well
> bring it crashing to its downfall. In countries around the world, from
> Europe to Africa, the Middle East to Latin America, tens of thousands are
> marching on the streets, braving police bullets and in many cases
> overthrowing their oppressors. Britain is plunging into the turmoil that is
> already gripping at least thirty countries throughout the rest of the
> world. Let Boris Johnson chortle in his moment of glory while he can. He
> least of all will be equipped to withstand the era of revolution and
> resistance that is sweeping the world."
> https://oaklandsocialist.com/2019/12/14/british-election-results/
>
> --
> *“In politics, abstract terms conceal treachery.” *from "The Black
> Jacobins" by C. L. R. James
> Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
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Re: [Marxism] No False Consolations | Novara Media

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Yes, but perhaps part of the problem was the Left's faith in the Labour
Party. Have we still not figured that out. It's disappointing to see that
Richard Seymour, who used to get this, has dived deep into such a failed
project. When your only mass movement is to the ballot box, a la Bernie
Sanders' campaign, why should anyone expect a deep commitment from the
voters?

Cheers,
John

On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 3:25 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> By Richard Seymour
>
> This is our defeat, and we have to own it. As if we have a choice. And
> we know what this means. The body count from austerity and the hostile
> environment will multiply. An already fairly awful society is going to
> get brutally worse. And it is difficult to see how this won’t feed into
> yet more violent racism and hatred of foreigners predicated on zero-sum
> ethnic competition.
>
> https://novaramedia.com/2019/12/13/no-false-consolations/
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Re: [Marxism] Quantum Experiment

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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It;s ironic that the outcome of this would be to objectively prove the
subjectivity of science :-)

Cheers,
John

On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 4:53 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> On 11/16/19 10:19 AM, Marla Vijaya kumar via Marxism wrote:
> >
> > Louis,The subject is extremely interesting and I am working
> on the philosophical aspect of it.
> > But unfortunately, it requires subscription.
> > Can you post the text?
> > Vijaya Kumar M
>
> Vijaya, this was from Alternet, which does not have paywalls. In any case:
>
> Quantum physics: our study suggests objective reality doesn’t exist
> November 14, 2019 7.40am EST
>
> Authors
> Alessandro Fedrizzi
> Professor of Quantum Physics, Heriot-Watt University
>
> Massimiliano Proietti
> PhD Candidate of Quantum Physics, Heriot-Watt University
>
> Alternative facts are spreading like a virus across society. Now it
> seems they have even infected science – at least the quantum realm. This
> may seem counter intuitive. The scientific method is after all founded
> on the reliable notions of observation, measurement and repeatability. A
> fact, as established by a measurement, should be objective, such that
> all observers can agree with it.
>
> But in a paper recently published in Science Advances, we show that, in
> the micro-world of atoms and particles that is governed by the strange
> rules of quantum mechanics, two different observers are entitled to
> their own facts. In other words, according to our best theory of the
> building blocks of nature itself, facts can actually be subjective.
>
> Observers are powerful players in the quantum world. According to the
> theory, particles can be in several places or states at once – this is
> called a superposition. But oddly, this is only the case when they
> aren’t observed. The second you observe a quantum system, it picks a
> specific location or state – breaking the superposition. The fact that
> nature behaves this way has been proven multiple times in the lab – for
> example, in the famous double slit experiment (see video below).
>
>
> In 1961, physicist Eugene Wigner proposed a provocative thought
> experiment. He questioned what would happen when applying quantum
> mechanics to an observer that is themselves being observed. Imagine that
> a friend of Wigner tosses a quantum coin – which is in a superposition
> of both heads and tails – inside a closed laboratory. Every time the
> friend tosses the coin, they observe a definite outcome. We can say that
> Wigner’s friend establishes a fact: the result of the coin toss is
> definitely head or tail.
>
> Wigner doesn’t have access to this fact from the outside, and according
> to quantum mechanics, must describe the friend and the coin to be in a
> superposition of all possible outcomes of the experiment. That’s because
> they are “entangled” – spookily connected so that if you manipulate one
> you also manipulate the other. Wigner can now in principle verify this
> superposition using a so-called “interference experiment” – a type of
> quantum measurement that allows you to unravel the superposition of an
> entire system, confirming that two objects are entangled.
>
> When Wigner and the friend compare notes later on, the friend will
> insist they saw definite outcomes for each coin toss. Wigner, however,
> will disagree whenever he observed friend and coin in a superposition.
>
> This presents a conundrum. The reality perceived by the friend cannot be
> reconciled with the reality on the outside. Wigner originally didn’t
> consider this much of a paradox, he argued it would be absurd to
> describe a conscious observer as a quantum object. However, he later
> departed from this view, and according to formal textbooks on quantum
> mechanics, the description is perfectly valid.
>
> The experiment
> The scenario has long remained an interesting thought experiment. But
> does it reflect reality? Scientifically, there has been little progress
> on this until very recently, when Časlav Brukner at the University of
> Vienna showed that, under certain assumptions, Wigner’s idea can be used
> to formally prove that measurements in quantum mechanics are subjective
> to observers.
>
> Brukner proposed a way of testing this notion by translating the
> Wigner’s friend scenario into a 

Re: [Marxism] Report from Bolivia

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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"Néstor Gorojovsky". Wow, there's a blast from the past! Great to hear.
This all sounds very positive. I hope it is a realistic assessment of what
is going on.

Cheers,
John

On Sat, Nov 16, 2019 at 1:58 AM Greg McDonald via Marxism <
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> *
>
> Report from Bolivian Trade Unionists
>
> 7:50 pm local time
> La Paz Bolivia, The masses who demand the return of EVO, in the Alto area,
> gained control of the police weapons depot there. The police in the Alto
> area have surrendered. Currently the masses are advancing on the city of La
> Paz.  The police who are in La Paz are asking the masses in support of Evo
> to avoid armed confrontations. They want to negotiate their surrender with
> the masses loyal to Evo. *In the next few hours the return of the
> legitimate President of Bolivia to his post of command is expected.
>
> THE COUP D'ÉTAT IS IN RETREAT.
>
> 1.- 1st Vice-President of the Bolivian Congress (MAS militant) Clarifies
> that she has not resigned, therefore, by order of succession she is the
> President of that institution and takes the decision to suspend the
> Congressional session. The right is bogged down.
>
> 2.- The main workers' unions call to dismantle the coup, otherwise they
> will go on general strike and paralyze the country.
>
> 3. The main Campesino union center begins to block the country's
> highways...pressuring the right to dismantle the coup.
>
> 4. Countries like Mexico, Argentina (President-elect), Paraguay, Venezuela,
> Nicaragua, Spain...emphasize that the coup must be dismantled...
>
> 5. World mobilization of political parties, social and trade union
> organizations, intellectuals, artists, human rights organizations demand
> the dismantling of the coup d'état.
>
> 6. The Police Force has been divided...a large number of police have joined
> the anti-coup forces
>
> These elements are strongly influencing the weakening of the right-wing
> fascist forces that executed the coup d'état...so that in the next few
> hours...according to international analysts the coup could be dismantled.
> : 珞珞
> Viva Bolivia 
> Viva Evo
>
> Report by fellow trade unionists in Bolivia."
>
> Sent to me by Néstor Gorojovsky.
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Re: [Marxism] Are belching cows really driving climate change?

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Thanks David,
I've just checked and both those Montgomery books are in libraries near me.

I was pretty sure that in a practical sense, it isn't an "either/or"
situation, that both are good things. I just found the rival claims a bit
contradictory. Thanks for replying promptly. I'll look at these books and
see if my brain can cope with the science!

In New Zealand we have some of the most intensive dairy farming in the
world. Agriculture (NZ agriculture is highly capital intensive and
industrial, but largely free of feedlot style farming, although with
massive supplementary feeding due to the intensity of the stock numbers) is
accounted to be New Zealand's single biggest greenhouse gas emitter as well
as, due to methane emissions. In Canterbury, dry land farming has been
converted to dairy to the massive detriment of river quality through
irrigation. The government has just given the agricultural sector another 5
years to come up with its own plan before it is brought into the emissions
trading scheme, which is, if course a virtually worthless attempt to let
the market solve the climate change issue. So this is really topical and
there are some interesting experiments with more sustainable and
regenerative models being undertaken in New Zealand

On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 10:44 AM DW via Marxism 
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>
> John,
> I have been active student (courses and all that) of soil fertility for
> almost 3 years now. I've learned about 20% of what I think I may need to
> know. It is a highly complex issue. I've written on some of this as well
> and posted links here. Others are "getting into science of soil fertility"
> as well. Knowing how our food is produced, a we can *change* the way it is
> produced, is part and parcel of both climate activism and the science of
> geology, agronomy and soil.
>
> I think the question is poised wrong. It is not "grasslands vs forests" at
> all. Everyone I know loves to have new forests planted. Even the far right
> is into forest conservation if it' doesn't mean we can't ever cut down a
> tree. Forests do indeed sequester lots of carbon. I won't even attempt to
> give a flip answer on the question of the indigenous genocide against
> native peoples as cause for "Little Ice Age" of the mid to late 18th
> Century. I haven't a clue.
>
> No, the issue of "grasslands" (pastures, steppes, sahels, prairies and so
> on) is not really an issue. The only real issue fpr the "land question" is
> over  climate change with regards to standard commercial farming practices
> vs regenerative agricultural practices. Few would dispute the value of
> forests. It does come down to the soil. That is a good place to start in
> studying this. One can read authors like David Montgomey's (the geologist
> and soil scientist, not the labor historian) two books on the subject:
> "Dirt" and more recently "“Growing a Revolution: Bringing Our Soil Back to
> Life". Both are good reads and one learns a helluvalot on soil, the climate
> and agriculture.
>
> I poised the question this way, commercial vs regenerative agriculture
> because that is largely how we can, *dynamically*, change the soil
> fertility, reverse the nitrogen glut into the water and oceans, and
> sequester enough carbon to also effect positively the climate. Trees do it
> even better but we need to grow food too, dirive some sort of economic
> intercourse between farmers, urban workers and the land ("healing the
> metabolic rift between our species and nature") Just planting forests
> (which actually require lots of maintenance actually, and water...see our
> forest fires out here where I live) won't hack it, IMO though, again, it is
> very wrong to counterpoise the two systems: forests and regenerative
> agriculture. They easily work in harmony with each other.
>
> It also doesn't require us to give up eating meat, I might add, which is
> why political vegans are quite upset about regen agriculture since it
> relies heavily on integrating animal husbandry with such farming practices
> where practical. (zing!)
>
> David Walters
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Re: [Marxism] Are belching cows really driving climate change?

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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I'm not a scientist so I'm dependent on the expertise of others to
understand the science around this, but I do want to know what is really
going on. So I'm a bit confused. On this list I've read that the decimation
of the native American population through disease etc resulted in arable
land being abandoned and returning to woodlands. This is supposed to have
led to so much carbon sequestration through the return of forest that it
brought on a mini-ice age, that froze the Thames over. I've also read that
in the US, lawns are a huge but inefficient form of planted land use,
because they don't sequester much carbon. Then I read this, that argues
that regenerative farming is far more efficient that trees as a form of
carbon sequestration. I get that the lawn article can be qualified by the
fact that people fertilizing their lawns reduces the benefits, as this
article suggests for contemporary industrialised farming. But I would
imagine that the native American farming methods would have been largely
regenerative and low intensity by today's standards. So which is correct?
That switching from regenerative farming to wilderness and woodland
massively absorbed carbon to the point of Northern hemispheric cooling due
to the expansion of forest (trees) or that regenerative farming is more
efficient than tree planting as a solution to current climate woes.
Obviously there is some overlap - the story about the Portuguese
regenerative farming experiment posted here included trees as part of the
picture. But there does seem to be two competing claims - one arguing that
well managed pasture is better, the other that reforestation (and
rewilding) is better. I'm also aware that arguments for depopulation could
be drawn from the example of rewilding and I am clearly not some kind of
racist misanthrope so I don't need that to be explained to me. I know there
are neo-Malthusians around that want to just get rid of people; I'n not one
of those.

I'd really appreciate an informed layperson's perspective on this.

On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 5:13 PM Ratbag Media via Marxism <
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>
> This is no minor point, given the obscurantism being engineered about the
> role of livestock in agriculture -- a distraction that suits the fossil
> fuel corps and undermines the impetus of the movement against climate
> change by exaggerating consumption politics and blaming family farmers.
>
>
> https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/are-cow-farts-really-driving-climate-change
>
> "The debate about agriculture’s contribution to greenhouse gases has been
> perverted. Methane is not the important issue — nitrate fertilisers and
> soil carbon loss are the important issues."
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Re: [Marxism] Open Letter In Support Of Trans Labour Members

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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As for women's spaces being about safety vs prudery, of course women were
not safe in that world when "People pissed,
shit, washed, and did all manner of human social intercourse without
regards to any sort of gender." Women would use chamber pots and empty them
the next day rather than risk going out at night. So just because that was
how things were didn't make it some kind of utopia. As Marxists we get that
about the past, right. We don't romanticise it. And of course this is, and
always has been a class issue.The wealthy were of course the first to get
the gains.

And in the third world, it a massive class issue for poor women. In places
like India, poor women are fighting for those spaces now. Women have to
'hold on' all day, risking urinary tract infections, because there are no
safe facilities and rapes often occur when they attempt to find somewhere
to relieve themselves.
https://www.wbur.org/cognoscenti/2014/06/25/human-rights-gang-rape-sharmila-l-murthy
It should be natal women who get to decide if self declared women are to be
allowed into women's spaces.

Cheers,
John

On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 4:02 PM John Edmundson 
wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 3:02 PM DW via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
>>   [So...this is my first tippytoe into this debate, something I've avoided
>> as it is impossible to have a calm rational debate about this, it seems,
>> at
>> least on the left. Ergo, my own ignorance around these questions will
>> remain as such since no one can discuss it with me or others who are
>> trying
>> to figure it all out.--David W.]
>>
>
> I certainly  know where you're coming from there. This list should be a
> place where such a civil discussion should be able to be held.
>
>
>> John wrote the following:  "
>> So concern about trans women having unfettered access to women's spaces is
>> patently *not* about transphobia, but about male violence - exactly the
>> reason such female only spaces were established in the first place."
>>
>>
>> Yeah...no it wasn't and it's both historically and anthropologically so
>> much BS to say that.
>>
>
> I was thinking of rape crisis centres when I made that point. Apologies
> for being unclear about that. Obviously places like huts to keep women
> apart during menstruation weren't what I was thinking about and are not an
> issue for trans activists either as far as I know . . .
>
>
>> Where I live in the Bay Area womens
>> washrooms are going away replaced by non-gender specific ones in public.
>> GOOD.
>
>
> So you, a *man*, think it is good that "*womens* washrooms are going away
> replaced by non-gender specific ones". Hmmm, I just don't see why women
> should be being expected to give their spaces up yet be de-platformed or
> threatened for questioning whether that is the way forward.
>
>
>> Like the single non-gender bathroom and washrooms we find at small
>> businesses (and that have always been found there) separating out
>> washrooms
>> and bathrooms was a function of KEEPING women separate from men for the
>> obvious religious/cultural reasons and had zero to do with women spaces as
>> "safe spaces".
>>
>
> Washrooms etc, yes. Evidently the first incarnation of that was in Paris
> (maybe the great exhibition?) and was seen as a curiosity. I used to think
> the best option was to go for unisex but my wife pointed me to evidence
> that unisex facilities are higher risk for male assaults on women, even
> though obviously it is possible for men to assault women in women's toilets
> etc also. She also pointed out that sometimes women really want that space,
> such as when they have a heavy period to deal with, or even to get away
> from unwanted attention. I've rethought my view on that.
>
>
>> I've always felt the washroom/bathroom (as opposed to the changing room or
>> locker room...a related but quite different issue) was a silly argument in
>> terms of transwomen (or for transmen) who, for all appearances, are the
>> sex
>> they identify and whose outward appearance is what they choose...as wholly
>> irrelevant to the trans rights issue anyway as trans people for centuries
>> have used bathroom of their choice and no one is the wiser.
>
>
> I won't argue with you on that. I think the current demand for this is all
> about asserting a political point - that trans women are women - rather
> than something that really needs to change. No one asks for ID now and
> won't where self ID is enacted.
>
>
>> Only the right
>> wing has ever raised this as something to go after trans folks for. They
>> lose every time in these arguments for that very reason. I believe in safe
>> spaces for women *when they chose to 

Re: [Marxism] Open Letter In Support Of Trans Labour Members

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 3:02 PM DW via Marxism 
wrote:

>   [So...this is my first tippytoe into this debate, something I've avoided
> as it is impossible to have a calm rational debate about this, it seems, at
> least on the left. Ergo, my own ignorance around these questions will
> remain as such since no one can discuss it with me or others who are trying
> to figure it all out.--David W.]
>

I certainly  know where you're coming from there. This list should be a
place where such a civil discussion should be able to be held.


> John wrote the following:  "
> So concern about trans women having unfettered access to women's spaces is
> patently *not* about transphobia, but about male violence - exactly the
> reason such female only spaces were established in the first place."
>
>
> Yeah...no it wasn't and it's both historically and anthropologically so
> much BS to say that.
>

I was thinking of rape crisis centres when I made that point. Apologies for
being unclear about that. Obviously places like huts to keep women apart
during menstruation weren't what I was thinking about and are not an issue
for trans activists either as far as I know . . .


> Where I live in the Bay Area womens
> washrooms are going away replaced by non-gender specific ones in public.
> GOOD.


So you, a *man*, think it is good that "*womens* washrooms are going away
replaced by non-gender specific ones". Hmmm, I just don't see why women
should be being expected to give their spaces up yet be de-platformed or
threatened for questioning whether that is the way forward.


> Like the single non-gender bathroom and washrooms we find at small
> businesses (and that have always been found there) separating out washrooms
> and bathrooms was a function of KEEPING women separate from men for the
> obvious religious/cultural reasons and had zero to do with women spaces as
> "safe spaces".
>

Washrooms etc, yes. Evidently the first incarnation of that was in Paris
(maybe the great exhibition?) and was seen as a curiosity. I used to think
the best option was to go for unisex but my wife pointed me to evidence
that unisex facilities are higher risk for male assaults on women, even
though obviously it is possible for men to assault women in women's toilets
etc also. She also pointed out that sometimes women really want that space,
such as when they have a heavy period to deal with, or even to get away
from unwanted attention. I've rethought my view on that.


> I've always felt the washroom/bathroom (as opposed to the changing room or
> locker room...a related but quite different issue) was a silly argument in
> terms of transwomen (or for transmen) who, for all appearances, are the sex
> they identify and whose outward appearance is what they choose...as wholly
> irrelevant to the trans rights issue anyway as trans people for centuries
> have used bathroom of their choice and no one is the wiser.


I won't argue with you on that. I think the current demand for this is all
about asserting a political point - that trans women are women - rather
than something that really needs to change. No one asks for ID now and
won't where self ID is enacted.


> Only the right
> wing has ever raised this as something to go after trans folks for. They
> lose every time in these arguments for that very reason. I believe in safe
> spaces for women *when they chose to assert this*.


My problem is that right now, "when they [do] chose to assert this", they
are dismissed as transphobes, threatened with sexual violence etc by people
who simultaneously claim to also be women themselves.


> The issue is trickier
> when we are talking what substantiates a trans person and what is "merely"
> *just* a self-declaration of same. THAT is a huge issue (locker rooms --
> also a prudery issue I should add -- and women's sports). I'll await more
> discussion on those if it comes up.
>

I don't think the changing room thing is just a prudery issue - women who
have been subjected to sexual violence in the past are not simply being
prudish in wanting a place to undress where they won't be subject to men
looking at them. It does surprise me though how many women I know who used
to fight tooth and nail for women's spaces at universities etc, who now
tell me they have no problem with mixed gender changing rooms. I suspect
they don't believe they will ever have to face it in reality.

Another issue of course is the "cotton ceiling", where lesbians who won't
have sex with trans women with penises are condemned as transphobic. All
power to those lesbians I say, but they are demonised by this movement. I
just can't see the liberation in this. How is this not a 

Re: [Marxism] Open Letter In Support Of Trans Labour Members

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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One of the problems with the way this debate is framed is the determination
to claim that anyone who is gender-critical is transphobic, in the same way
that anyone opposed to Israel is deemed to be antisemitic. An example from
one of the links in MM's post follows. Quoting a "Women's Place UK"
speaker, the article proceeds:

*"And there are predatory men who will use any means to gain … access  to
women’s spaces when they are vulnerable* -yes, she means trans women"

Actually, the insertion "yes, she means trans women" is pure editorialising
slotted in as fact. The speaker is discussing the possibility of self
declared MtF women entering women's spaces. Right now, no one checks
anyone's ID when they enter a changing room. But with self ID, the taboo to
men simply walking into women's changing facilities is massively lowered.
And evidence suggests that male violence against women and male violence in
general is significantly higher that that perpetrated by women. Even
getting gender reassignment surgery does not change this fact:

*“[R]egarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk
for crime compared to female controls (aHR6.6; 95% CI4.1-10.88
)
but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5-1.2).  This indicates that
they retained a male pattern regarding criminality.  The same was true for
violent crime.”*

*“ Criminal activity, particularly violent crime, is much more common among
men than women in the general population….Crime after sex reassignment,
however, has not previously been studied.  In this study, male-to-female
individuals had a higher risk for criminal convictions compared to female
controls but not to male controls. This suggests that the sex reassignment
procedure neither increased nor decreased the rate of criminal offending in
male-to-females.”
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
*

Ironically, only by accepting that "trans women are women" does the
statement become transphobic. Because if trans women are women, then trans
women are six times more violent than "cis" women. But if trans women are
men, they are no more violent than other men, so the concern is with any
men, not trans. Which is, of course, what most gender critical people have
always maintained.

So concern about trans women having unfettered access to women's spaces is
patently *not* about transphobia, but about male violence - exactly the
reason such female only spaces were established in the first place. If we
one day get to a point where male violence against women as a phenomenon is
a thing of the past, the issue of who uses what spaces will be
substantively different. But as long as the evidence suggests that all
male-born, *regardless of their gender identity*, are statistically more
likely to present a risk to women, I believe women have the right to retain
those spaces. If women-only spaces are no longer valid now, when male
violence against women is still high, how were they ever valid before. It
is not up to male born people to decide they have the right to those
spaces, regardless of how sincerely they identify as women. And I would
have thought that those male born who genuinely identify as women would get
that. Some, of course, like Miranda Yardley, do get it and want no part in
these campaigns.

Bottom line - what are men being asked to compromise on? Nothing.
What are women being told to compromise on? Hard won gains that women and
socialists fought for decades to achieve. Are women (particularly lesbians)
really the oppressor group they are portrayed as? I don't think so.

The reality is, we need specialist facilities to cater to the needs of
trans people rather than taking spaces from women. Trans wings in prisons,
trans shelters, unisex *as well as* sex segregated toilet and changing
facilities etc, rather than requiring women and girls to relinquish their
spaces (changing rooms etc) to people with penises.

On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 11:33 AM MM via Marxism 
wrote:

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>
> Text:
>
> We are members of the Labour Party expressing solidarity with trans people
> in the face of hate from the media and by anti-trans groups in the 

Re: [Marxism] New Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual Alliance founded in London

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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OK, so "there’s no way to judge the accuracy of the first statement". So I
could be lying. I'm not.

And I'm sure you have seen, amongst worse, the "Give the TERF a platform"
memes, with the picture of a gibbet. I'm sure you are aware of the concept
of the "cotton ceiling" (referencing women's underwear) and the
anti-lesbian violent misogynistic statements that circulate around lesbians
who refuse to have sex with trans women who haven't undergone surgical
transition. These things aren't made up. "Vague accusations of alleged
failures by leftists to live up to leftist values has become a standard
trope of the alt-right". Point me to a left site that supports the trans
agenda but has condemned the misogyny. I'm not saying they don't exist. I'd
be really pleased to see the evidence. And please don't conflate my
concerns with the alt-right. In Iran gay people can by executed but trans
people can access gender realignment surgery. That doesn't make you a
homophobe. So guilt by association is a weak argument.

So I've just extended a "red-herring-laden “invitations” to debate like
this one are so tedious." Feel free to point to the "red herring[s]" that I
put out there. But please don't include the straw man quotes that you
yourself posted.

Having concerns about the hard fought gains made by women over the decades
is not 'transphobia'. I absolutely support the right of trans people to
live free of discrimination and threats of violence. There are trans people
on both sides of this debate.

Having concerns that children too young to give informed consent are being
prescribed puberty blockers (not fully reversible despite the claims) and
in many cases then progressing to a lifetime of sex hormones (linked to
some cancers and other side effects) is not transphobia. It should not be
left to private clinics to "support gender affirmation" without adequate
provision of alternative counseling to make these life changing decisions.

I'm concerned that the important rights of a tiny minority seem to require
the trading away of a majority (women and girls)'s rights. There should be
a way forward that does not involve such a 'zero sum' solution. And it does
seem that it's only women, not men, who are being expected to give up these
rights. How about properly funded shelters for abused trans women instead
of abused and vulnerable women having to share their crisis shelters with
people who seem to them to all intents and purposes to be men? Men's,
women's and unisex toilets etc. Some of the trans activists I've discussed
this issue with have been women, including some lesbians who have no
problem with surrendering the women only status of their changing rooms.
That's their prerogative. But if this list and my general experience is
anything to go by, the Left (in the West where this debate seems most
prevalent), is still overwhelmingly male. If that overwhelmingly male Left
is deciding that discussion with women over this issue is off limits, it's
hardly surprising and unlikely to change.

This is not an easy issue but the solution should not be to shut down the
discussion.

On Sun, Oct 27, 2019 at 12:53 PM MM  wrote:

> On Oct 26, 2019, at 5:12 PM, John Edmundson via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
> I have seen
> calls for "TERFs" to be raped and murdered (without a squeak from the
> leftist allies involved in the same discussion)….
>
>
> It seriously concerns me that calls for women to be raped and murdered
> should be able to go unchallenged by the Left.
>
>
> Without knowing which discussion this was or which “leftist allies” were
> involved, there’s no way to judge the accuracy of the first statement.
> Calls for violence have no place in these discussions and have been
> frequently condemned — including on this list. Vague accusations of alleged
> failures by leftists to live up to leftist values has become a standard
> trope of the alt-right. It’s the main reason that red-herring-laden
> “invitations” to debate like this one are so tedious.
>
> Meanwhile, I’ll just offer this as my final response on this thread:
>
> “The current storm around trans people bears all the hallmarks of a moral
> panic. Trans people are blamed for a number of – often contradictory –
> harms. In 2017, these included corrupting children, changing the English
> language and threatening free speech, violence against women and seeking to
> both dismantle and reinforce problematic gender norms.
>
> “The “news” often turns out

Re: [Marxism] New Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual Alliance founded in London

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Apologies if this appears twice.

It is not as simple as you suggest. No gender critical feminist I have ever
discussed this issue with sees sex as a simple XX/XY chromosome issue. They
realise that what results in someone being 'male' or 'female' is a
combination of chromosomes, hormones etc. And they don't appreciate being
called transphobic for simply wanting these issues to be discussed rather
than shut down (per Daniel's post above, "I can say that their arguments
tend to be exactly the same as racists and homophobes use against gay
and/or black men as predators. And they are as little open to actual facts
as racists and homophobes tend to be. Contradict them politely once or
twice and they’ll start going on about transwomen as ”rapists in drag”. ’m
not one for censorship, but if people get warned and thrown off this list
for racist, misogynistic or homophobic posting, why then are repeated
transphobic posting permitted?"

This characterisation could not be further from my experience of
discussions on this issue. I have personally never encountered
gender-critical people using arguments "exactly the same as racists and
homophobes use against gay and/or black men as predators." I have seen
calls for "TERFs" to be raped and murdered (without a squeak from the
leftist allies involved in the same discussion). Left allies of the trans
activist community tend to just pretend some of their allies don't hold and
express such views.

It seriously concerns me that calls for women to be raped and murdered
should be able to go unchallenged by the Left. It concerns me when I see
trans-activists (whether trans or allies I wouldn't know) being cheered for
saying lesbians just need a bit of their "ladydick", or that a lesbian's
refusal to have sex with a "lesbian" with a penis makes that "lesbian with
a penis" a victim of a transphobic "cotton ceiling". In any other context,
where the speaker didn't identify as a woman, statements like that would be
seen for the misogynist and anti-lesbian homophobia they are. Meanwhile,
all trans people are subsumed into a monolith. There are trans people who
see their situation as a "disorder" that they have to struggle with every
day of their lives. There are MtF trans people who refuse to use the term
trans woman to avoid being associated with the current trans activism. And
of course there are trans people who see gender self ID as the way forward.

It is a mistake for the Left to ride in, deciding the discussion is over
before it has really begun, and declaring anyone with a different view to
be in need of a warning and a possible ban.

If you think the long struggle undertaken by women to have safe spaces was
a mistake or is an outdated concept, if you think the existence of women's
toilet and changing facilities where women and girls can undress without
being watched by or exposed to self identifying women with male genitalia
(and possibly opportunistic men taking advantage of the relaxed
guidelines/taboos around such spaces) are an anachronism, then make that
case and engage in a discussion.

It would be an interesting opportunity for a debate that didn't degenerate
rapidly into name calling and calls for banning.

John

On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 10:37 PM Philip Ferguson via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
>
> https://rdln.wordpress.com/2019/10/26/new-lesbian-gay-bisexual-alliance-formed-in-london/
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Re: [Marxism] New Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual Alliance founded in London

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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It is not as simple as you suggest. No gender critical feminist I have ever
discussed this issue with sees sex as a simple XX/XY chromosome issue. They
realise that what results in someone being 'male' or 'female' is a
combination of chromosomes, hormones etc. And they don't appreciate being
called transphobic for simply wanting these issues to be discussed rather
than shut down (per Daniel's post above, "I can say that their arguments
tend to be exactly the same as racists and homophobes use against gay
and/or black men as predators. And they are as little open to actual facts
as racists and homophobes tend to be. Contradict them politely once or
twice and they’ll start going on about transwomen as ”rapists in drag”. ’m
not one for censorship, but if people get warned and thrown off this list
for racist, misogynistic or homophobic posting, why then are repeated
transphobic posting permitted?"

This characterisation could not be further from my experience of
discussions on this issue. I have personally never encountered
gender-critical people using arguments "exactly the same as racists and
homophobes use against gay and/or black men as predators." I have seen
calls for "TERFs" to be raped and murdered (without a squeak from the
leftist allies involved in the same discussion). Left allies of the trans
activist community tend to just pretend some of their allies don't hold and
express such views.

It seriously concerns me that calls for women to be raped and murdered
should be able to go unchallenged by the Left. It concerns me when I see
trans-activists (whether trans or allies I wouldn't know) being cheered for
saying lesbians just need a bit of their "ladydick", or that a lesbian's
refusal to have sex with a "lesbian" with a penis makes that "lesbian with
a penis" a victim of a transphobic "cotton ceiling". In any other context,
where the speaker didn't identify as a woman, statements like that would be
seen for the misogynist and anti-lesbian homophobia they are. Meanwhile,
all trans people are subsumed into a monolith. There are trans people who
see their situation as a "disorder" that they have to struggle with every
day of their lives. There are MtF trans people who refuse to use the term
trans woman to avoid being associated with the current trans activism. And
of course there are trans people who see gender self ID as the way forward.

It is a mistake for the Left to ride in, deciding the discussion is over
before it has really begun, and declaring anyone with a different view to
be in need of a warning and a possible ban.

If you think the long struggle undertaken by women to have safe spaces was
a mistake or is an outdated concept, if you think the existence of women's
toilet and changing facilities where women and girls can undress without
being watched by or exposed to self identifying women with male genitalia
(and possibly opportunistic men taking advantage of the relaxed
guidelines/taboos around such spaces) are an anachronism, then make that
case and engage in a discussion.

It would be an interesting opportunity for a debate that didn't degenerate
rapidly into name calling and calls for banning.

John

On Sun, Oct 27, 2019 at 5:15 AM MM via Marxism 
wrote:

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>
> > On Oct 26, 2019, at 11:41 AM, Me  wrote:
> >
> > Biology is such a terf hey?
> >
> > https://twitter.com/lecanardnoir/status/1129742277134508033 <
> https://twitter.com/lecanardnoir/status/1129742277134508033>
>
> Ah yes: A random Twitter thread as authoritative source. Why didn’t I
> think of that? Actually, he sounds a lot like those “edgy
> anti-imperialists” explaining how criticizing US involvement in “regime
> change” in Syria doesn’t make them supporters of Assad. The fact that their
> premise is self-servingly wrong is irrelevant to them.
>
> Meanwhile, this seems better (as does the piece Daniel Lindvall posted):
>
> “Some sexual scientists have tried to chart the many different expressions
> of sex/gender identity, putting together formal models of what we know
> about variations in sexual identity (man, woman, something else), gendered
> identity (masculine, feminine, androgynous, something else; note: the term
> “gender identity” is often conflated with sexual identity, here I use
> gendered identity to refer to the degree a person is typically masculine
> and/or feminine for 

[Marxism] [SUSPICIOUS MESSAGE] Re: [SUSPICIOUS MESSAGE] The single, four-year-old tweet that told us everything we were in for with Donald Trump | The Independent

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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It is somewhat bizarre that a candidate for the world's top political post
thought a Twitter account called " @CheesedBrit"  looked like a suitably
reliable source. But then that assumes he wasn't being disingenuous all
along.

John

On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 7:53 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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-- 
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Who steals the goose from off the common
But leaves the greater villain loose
Who steals the common from the goose
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Re: [Marxism] [UCE] New Zealand’s Prime Minister is Facing an Indigenous Uprising. She’s Fucking it Up. - Regeneration Magazine

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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I think the headline is a bit over-excited and I notice that the article
itself makes no such claim. There is some interesting stuff in there
though. Ihumatao is an important struggle in New Zealand at the moment and
if I were living in Auckland I would definitely be actively supporting it.
The writer is correct to link it back to the Bastion Point occupation and
Te Whiti o Rongomai's occupation of Parihaka. There is long and honourable
tradition of land occupations and other land struggles in this country.
Interestingly Pania Newton is calling for the Ihumatao land to become a
public reserve, which has made it difficult for racists to complain about
it.

I think the anti-Jacinda Ardern rhetoric is a bit over the top too. She was
an intern under Tony Blair and I have no illusions in her whatsoever. But
to claim she "avoided" the Ihumatao issue by going to visit the New Zealand
Empire abroad is hyperbolic. She went to Tokelau, a New Zealand
protectorate north of Samoa on a visit that had been planned long before
the escalation occurred at Ihumatao. She's the first NZ PM to bother to
visit there in years, probably in part because her father is the High
Commissioner there. Ironically the opposition National Party have levelled
the same criticism at her. She sent three Maori members of her Labour led
coalition to meet the occupiers and said she was initially leaving the
issue in their hands. I think she should have gone when she returned but it
would only have been symbolic. Incidentally, Tokelau does not have a
majority in favour of independence from New Zealand and it is a tiny
collection of atolls at severe risk of inundation due to sea level rise.
Nevertheless Ardern has kept the option of independence open. Furthermore,
Tokelau'ans are New Zealand citizens by birth and therefore do not need a
visa to enter the country. Independence could be a negative move for them
if their country disappears beneath the waves and they no longer have the
automatic right to come here because they relinquished their citizenship.

On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 12:32 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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Re: [Marxism] A Popeyes Chicken Sandwich Under Socialism

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Andrew wrote:
" A last note on how such socialization would happen: my guess is that
during
general strikes, instead of just setting up food banks for strikers in a
particular company or industry (as we've seen in recent strikes by teachers
et al.), that strikers will take over the thousands of restaurants -- and
keep them in public hands if the strikes are victorious."

Which is a nice idea. But short of "the strikes are victorious" meaning the
revolution is victorious, it won't happen. Site-occupying fast food workers
could hand out free or cheap food but the entire supply chain would have to
have been seized for anything approaching this to work. Also hopefully they
would improve the quality . . .

Cheers,
John

On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 11:48 PM Andrew Pollack via Marxism <
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>
> First to get a potential straw man out of the way: I find the article by
> Kampf-Lassin fairly tepid when it comes to speculating on post-revolution
> eating practices and institutions.
> But the article should be motivation for more wide-ranging speculation.
> For instance, Trotsky pointed out the impact of the low state of
> development on collective kitchens, as workers preferred home meals to
> poorly provisioned centers:
> https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/women/life/23_07_13.htm
> In the meantime mammoth chain restaurants, fast food and otherwise, have
> mushroomed under capitalism on a generally higher state of development from
> a technical standpoint. Going to an objectively-socialized restaurant is
> viewed generally as a treat (while also reducing time spent cooking at
> home).
> So the question is: What are we to do with them once they're socialized?
> A last note on how such socialization would happen: my guess is that during
> general strikes, instead of just setting up food banks for strikers in a
> particular company or industry (as we've seen in recent strikes by teachers
> et al.), that strikers will take over the thousands of restaurants -- and
> keep them in public hands if the strikes are victorious.
>
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Marxism] Rojava revolution - seven years on

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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I think statements like "However, [the Syrian Army's] failure to retake the
north-western city of Idlib from al Qaeda and its Islamist allies" conforms
to the simplification of the Syrian revolution that characterises it as
completely dominated by and representative of Islamist fundamentalism.
Ironically, if Rojava had never existed, a lot of leftists would have been
more willing to support (at least from the comfort  their own homes) the
Syrian revolution. Green Left Weekly should know better.

Cheers,
John

On Sat, Aug 3, 2019 at 10:17 AM Chris Slee via Marxism <
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> https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/rojava-revolution-seven-years
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Re: [Marxism] James Heartfield was a candidate with Nigel Farage's Brexit Party

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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I find this very sad too. I met James once when he visited New Zealand and
found him very interesting and worth talking to. I also hoped that he would
come out of the whole Spiked thing on the right, but not "Right" side, if
you know what I mean.
John

On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 9:10 AM Gary MacLennan via Marxism <
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> I am sad to read this Lou. I corresponded with him a few times and he was
> always polite. Lou this is what happens when one switches from Marx to
> Nietzsche but almightyjesus  Farage
>
> Comradely
>
> Gary
>
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] Agriculture: The Worst Mistake Humans Ever Made

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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More important than the evils or otherwise of the invention of agriculture
is, where to from here? Hunter-gathering did have an impact (extinction of
megafauna - including in Australia) and, as Mark pointed out, even in
America, it did deplete native species like bison. In New Zealand, the moa
were extinct within a very short time (only a few hundred years) of the
first human arrivals. And we've had this discussion before. But, despite
vast traditional knowledge, neither hunter-gatherers nor early farmers,
knew what longterm impact they were having or would have over an extended
period to the extent that we now know about their experience or our own. We
can't survive as hunter gatherers with our current population and I doubt
many of us would want to. The necessary knowledge now exists though to farm
in an efficient and sustainable manner, feed the world and retire a lot of
existing farmland, which means our planet can be a much more pleasant
place, not just for us, but for currently endangered species. The issue is
political, not technical. Is that solution possible under capitalism?
Possibly, but I wouldn't count on it. How though do we build a movement
that makes clear that the urgent need of the planet can best, and
permanently, be resolved by a socialism?

John

On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 11:16 AM Ratbag Media via Marxism <
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>
> I'd be very wary about ruling that 'agriculture' is/was an advance on
> hunter gathering. Aside from the fact that both systems so often
> co-exist in the same region (such as Central America during the time
> of the Maya culture), in places like New Guinea agriculture was
> embraced initially 7,000 – 10,000 years ago.
> http://press-files.anu.edu.au/downloads/press/p53311/pdf/history.pdf
> But it used to be argued that across the Torres Strait --despite the
> example --  Australian aborigines chose not to farm, when in fact they
> were the first farmers on the planet.
> Indeed, when you look at the phenomenon of agriculture it all depends
> on what is at hand in way of plants...and access to water.
> And how you manage it.
> Across the Mediterranean, it's tempting to rule that the agricultural
> protocols that grew out of the Fertile Crescent were an ecological
> disaster.  A feature that even Frederick Engels noted.This was the
> price paid for successive civilisations.
> Was it the wheat and olives or was it the plough?
> Similarly, you cannot separate the supposed difference between the
> agricultural and 'hunter gatherer'  lifestyle without reference to
> changes in climate.Nor can you infer that the 'hunter gatherer' didn't
> know what their patch of existence was capable of.
> In that sense 'agriculture' isn't so much an 'invention' but an extension.
> A different approach to stewardship.
> The real question, I guess, isn't so much the invention of
> agriculture, but the invention of surplus.
> In my region -- in Gubi Gubi country -- it is very clear that the land
> was bountiful and the culture rich. That there was no reason to
> ratchet up the demands made of the landscape.
> Disaster struck, of course, and I can stand on the beach here and look
> out to where that tragedy began -- where the Brits first arrived to
> this place then invaded.
> But let's get this clear: aside from the gun, what savaged the Gubi
> Gubi economy was disease. Then the dispossession.
> What's happening now -- across Australia --  is an attempt to embrace
> Aboriginal landcare practices. This may be as a small movement at the
> moment but  with fire management, for instance, there is a major
> deference. There is also a major debate growing around the traditional
> practice of indigenous management of river systems.
> You can't  live in a land for 60,000+ years without knowing what's what.
> Indeed, there is no future -- no future -- for Australian agriculture
> without learning  -- and applying --from the Aboriginal tradition of
> what was supposedly 'hunter gathering'.
>
> dave riley
>
>
>
>
>
> dave riley
> .
>
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Re: [Marxism] Agriculture: The Worst Mistake Humans Ever Made

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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I think smarter agriculture, as in the Guardian article Louis posted,
reporting from Portugal, is a much more useful contribution than Diamond's
adulation of the past. If the idea is that we return to a human population
of a few hundred thousand then Diamond's idea might have merit.

John

On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 2:15 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> Arguments for hunting and gathering are ahistorical but are worth
> considering. Essentially, rice, potatoes, and wheat are of dubious value
> nutritionally even though they are the staples of class society.
>
>
> https://returntonow.net/2016/05/29/agriculture-worst-mistake-humans-ever-made/
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Re: [Marxism] Honduras Is Still Bleeding... | Eric Draitser on Patreon

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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It seems you have to become a patron to access this article.

John

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Re: [Marxism] Platypus “Nobody wanted to hear, ‘You’re reactionary in what you’re doing’”: An Interview with Earl Silbar - Platypus

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Ha, I thought you were being facetious . . .

Cheers,
John

On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 6:55 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> On 6/10/19 2:53 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
> > I guess the fact that they are generating much public hatred indicates
> > that they have backed off from some very bad positions.
>
> Obviously meant to say not generating.
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Re: [Marxism] Remembering lesbians in the lesbian and gay liberation movement

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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I don't think the concern this article raises can be automatically written
of as trans-phobic or repugnant. There is an issue here that needs to be
addressed.

The article claims, among other things, that lesbian women are being
subjected to pressure to have sex with people who claim to be lesbian
women, but who have male genitals. I don't know to what extent this is
happening but unless I learn otherwise I would take that allegation in good
faith. We can't just declare it a fiction. If it isn't happening, and if
women are not in fact finding that people with male genitals but who
identify as women are entering women's spaces (changing areas etc), then
perhaps there is no issue. But the fear seems real and needs to be
addressed.

None of this need in any way belittle the struggle of trans people, who are
clearly amongst the most viciously persecuted minorities in our
communities. It just means there is a conflict of interests that needs to
be resolved in a comradely manner to the benefit of all. If I were a
lesbian woman and felt that spaces that previously seemed safe were now the
equal preserve of people who are physically male but declare that they feel
female, that would be a concern to me. It wouldn't make me trans-phobic. It
would make me concerned about what was happening or might happen.

I certainly don't find the suggestion that lesbians are suddenly being
written out of history especially convincing but I'm not in the US. There
seems to be a strange contradiction between the rise of implementation of
trans ideology (as claimed in the article) and a repression of lesbians
coming about through the resurgence of right wing Christian fundamentalism,
Trumpism etc (also claimed by the article). I can't imagine a world where
the US evangelical right and the political demographic that elevated Trump
to the presidency would simultaneously condemn lesbianism and embrace trans
ideology. That link seems tenuous to me.

I don't think though that Menasche can be simply written off as a
"repugnant" "transphobe". Such allegations require actual evidence and
rational accurate rebuttal of her arguments.

John Edmundson

On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 4:40 PM MM via Marxism 
wrote:

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>
> > On Jun 1, 2019, at 9:36 PM, Philip Ferguson via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Excellent piece by veteran lesbian, trade union and socialist activist
> Ann
> > Menasche.  Also sets the record straight re Stonewall riots.
> >
> >
> https://rdln.wordpress.com/2019/06/02/remembering-lesbians-in-lesbian-and-gay-liberation/
> <
> https://rdln.wordpress.com/2019/06/02/remembering-lesbians-in-lesbian-and-gay-liberation/
> >
>
> "We are being pressured and guilt-tripped on the one hand to accept men
> calling themselves women into our communities and our bedrooms."
>
> Really? Into your bedrooms? Are you sure about that?
>
> Meanwhile, maybe we should step outside the fevered delusions — delusions
> of a scenario which I contend has never, ever happened — and “remember” the
> ongoing slaughter of trans-women:
>
> “Muhlaysia Booker and Michelle Washington were killed less than 24 hours
> apart in separate incidents. They are among at least five transgender
> people — all of whom were black — who have been killed nationwide in 2019,
> according to advocacy group the Human Rights Campaign.”
>
>
> https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/two-transgender-women-color-killed-one-weekend-one-arrest-made-n1008386
>
> But maybe Muhlaysia and Michelle were killed by lesbians for trying to
> guilt-trip them into “accepting them into their bedrooms.”
>
> What a sick and repugnant obsession Ferguson has.
>
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Re: [Marxism] Australia: luck running out? | Michael Roberts Blog

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Surely though it is the job of leftists to avoid "lesser evilism".
Obviously there will be ways in which Labor is "better", just as Labour is
in some ways "better" in New Zealand, where I am. But as long as the
message from the left is that Labor/Labour/the Democrats is the lesser
evil, people will never shift far. I see it all the time. The flip side of
Labour being the lesser evil is that the Tories, in NZ that's the National
Party, are more evil. Next thing, and I see this all the time, it's evil
John Key (the former National Party leader and Prime Minister), the Fascist
Nats, and then, because the Labour Party's coalition partner is New Zealand
First, led by ex-Nat Winston Peters, an old school Keynesian, xenophobe and
social conservative, anything the government does that they don't like,
such as dumping their proposed Capital Gains Tax, is "Winston's fault".

Actually no, it isn;t Winston's fault. Labour saw the strength of reaction
from the business community, landlords etc and decided, because
parliamentary democracy is all about "winning the middle", a CGT wasn't an
election winner, even though a significant majority of New Zealanders when
polled, supported one. One of the most important things the left in the
West has to do is break people from "lesser Evilism", not just reflect it.

Cheers,
John

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 9:37 AM Chris Slee  wrote:

> The Labor Party was in some respects (not all) a lesser evil than the
> Coalition.
>
> For example, Labor promised to increase the unemployment benefit, which
> had been kept at a poverty level for decades.
>
> However Labor refused to commit itself to a specific amount, saying this
> would be determined by an enquiry.  This would have meant unnecessary
> delay.  Still, it would have eventually resulted in an increase.
>
> On many issues Labor agrees with the Coalition - for example, continuing
> the detention of refugees on islands in the Pacific (Manus and Nauru), and
> continuing the policy of turning back refugee boats.
>
> However Labor did promise to restore the meagre financial support given to
> asylum seekers currently living in the Australian community, which had been
> cut off by the Coalition government.
>
> On some issues Labor failed to take a clear position (for example, on the
> proposed Adani coal mine).
>
> But there were enough issues on which Labor had a somewhat better position
> than the government that we could say it was a lesser evil.
>
> After the defeat one Labor politician has said the party lost because it
> was too left-wing.  I would not be surprised if the Labor Party moves even
> further to the right.
>
> Chris Slee
>
> --
> *From:* Marxism  on behalf of John
> Edmundson via Marxism 
> *Sent:* Sunday, 19 May 2019 8:27:02 PM
> *To:* Chris Slee
> *Subject:* Re: [Marxism] Australia: luck running out? | Michael Roberts
> Blog
>
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>
> A comment about Union independence from Labor aside, this GLW article still
> seems to see a Labor win as a positive thing . . .
>
> Cheers,
> John
>
> On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 6:49 PM Chris Slee via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
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> >
> > Michael Roberts notes that opinion polls were predicting a Labor Party
> > victory in the election.  But this did not happen - the Liberal-National
> > Coalition has won.  (There are still some undecided seats, but these will
> > not enable a Labor victory.  At best they might force the Coalition
> > government into reaching an agreement with some right-wing independents).
> >
> > One factor affecting the result was a huge media campaign by Clive
> Palmer,
> > a wealthy businessman who spent an estimated $60 m

Re: [Marxism] Australia: luck running out? | Michael Roberts Blog

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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A comment about Union independence from Labor aside, this GLW article still
seems to see a Labor win as a positive thing . . .

Cheers,
John

On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 6:49 PM Chris Slee via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> Michael Roberts notes that opinion polls were predicting a Labor Party
> victory in the election.  But this did not happen - the Liberal-National
> Coalition has won.  (There are still some undecided seats, but these will
> not enable a Labor victory.  At best they might force the Coalition
> government into reaching an agreement with some right-wing independents).
>
> One factor affecting the result was a huge media campaign by Clive Palmer,
> a wealthy businessman who spent an estimated $60 million on advertisements
> attacking Labor.  This amount is roughly equal to the combined spending of
> Labor and the Coalition.
>
> On a more positive note, the Victorian Socialists - a coalition of left
> groups and individuals  in the state of Victoria - averaged about 5 percent
> in the 3 electorates it contested, which is much larger than other election
> results for left groups in federal elections in recent years.
>
> Here is an article about the election result by Jim McIlroy in Green Left
> Weekly:
>
> https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/coalition-win-makes-fightback-urgent
>
> Chris Slee
>
>
>
> 
> From: Marxism  on behalf of Louis
> Proyect via Marxism 
> Sent: Saturday, 18 May 2019 10:03 PM
> To: Chris Slee
> Subject: [Marxism] Australia: luck running out? | Michael Roberts Blog
>
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>
> Australia may be a ‘lucky country’ but luck can change.  The economy
> relies on raw material exports and so is vulnerable to any plunge in
> commodity prices and if China were to slow down or the trade war with
> the US really spike, then Australia is vulnerable.  The OECD put it this
> way “a negative external shock cold prompt a sharp cut to incomes, a
> rise in unemployment and downturn in consumption.  This would increase
> mortgage stress and further escalate a fall in house prices.  A currency
> depreciation would also be likely.”
>
>
> https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2019/05/17/australia-luck-running-out/
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Re: [Marxism] A Green New Deal Must Prioritize Regenerative Agriculture

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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I absolutely agree about the recent intensification in NZ dairy herds and
the impact in terms of fertilisers, irrigation etc. One of the horrendous
changes has been the conversion of dry land farms over to dairy. Where I am
in Canterbury, it is very dry, our prevailing summer weather is a hot dry
Föhn wind and our winter is characteristically frosty, dry and sunny.
Canterbury farms were growing wheat and running sheep when I was growing
up. The wheat went years ago and the sheep are now few and far between.
Massive irrigation schemes have been sucking water out of the rivers,
affecting the aquifers from which town and city water is drawn. Some rivers
don't consistently make it to the sea and popular swimming holes of my
childhood are now foetid pools with safety warnings around water quality. A
few years back, our Canterbury Regional Council challenged a big new
irrigation scheme. The government stepped in, sacked the CRC and appointed
a commissioner to get the proposal through.

I also agree that the new proposed legislation, celebrated by António
Guterres yesterday on his visit here, is a joke. Farmers have had a huge
"get out of jail free" card around GHG emissions and they still do. I just
couldn't see how the farming model in the article, where farmers were still
talking about fertiliser regimes and the like, would be that different from
what happens now in New Zealand. I'm sure it's better than the current
industrial model in the States, but if, as in NZ, we don't see it as
sustainable, how can it be a sustainable model globally?

I may not have been clear enough in my previous post.

Cheers,
John

On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 8:04 PM Ratbag Media via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> The recent laws pending  in New Zealand  is not the way to proceed.
>
> https://theconversation.com/nz-introduces-groundbreaking-zero-carbon-bill-including-targets-for-agricultural-methane-116724
> Putting it on farmers to fix their emissions themselves won't work.
> They are too much contaisned by the market and debt.
>
> As the original article argues:
> "This transformative vision for the future of agriculture is possible,
> but only within the context of a national paradigm shift with the full
> backing and resources of the state. We don’t have time for individual
> farmers to adopt regenerative practices on a case-by-case basis. The
> 2018 Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report is very clear:
> In order to keep the consequences of global warming from becoming
> irrevocably cataclysmic, we need to reduce emissions by 45 percent by
> 2030 and reach net-zero emissions by 2050. That will be
> extraordinarily difficult, if not impossible, without converting our
> country’s nearly 1 billion acres of farmland into a deep carbon
> sink.:"
>
> https://truthout.org/articles/a-green-new-deal-must-prioritize-regenerative-agriculture/?utm_source=sharebuttons_medium=facebook_campaign=mashshare
> The same one-approach  ruled by imperatives misses the dynamic we have
> to foster.
>
> As this article on New Zealand regenerative agriculture  points out :
> http://www.fao.org/3/a-bt439e.pdf
> "New Zealand has had one of the world’s highest rates of agricultural
> land intensification over recent decades (Ministry for the
> Environment, 2017).Over the last fifteen years dairy farming in
> particular has intensified beyond natural and environmental limits
> through imported feed, fertiliser and irrigation. This intensive form
> of farming has caused increases in production but carries associated
> environmental problems with rising greenhouse gas emission, increasing
> water pollution and decreasing biodiversity.
> "Greg Hart,a regenerative farmer from Hawke’s Bay,reflects on these
> environmental issues: “We have a very clear understanding that where
> it’s all heading is not working”.
> "It is also a heavily debt laden model. New Zealand dairy farmers are
> among the most highly indebted in the world with around eight thousand
> farmers collectively holding around $38 billion worth of debt. This
> has led to high levels of strain among rural communities.
> "Steve Broughton, one of the regenerators,says: “There are a lot of
> stressed out, depressed farmers out there”.Greg characterises the
> situation like this: “There are two paths laid out in front of us now,
> one is 

Re: [Marxism] https://truthout.org/articles/a-green-new-deal-must-prioritize-regenerative-agriculture/

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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I don't know much about this issue but I have some nagging questions. Here
in New Zealand, where we have intensive dairy farming but the cattle are
outdoors, grazing in paddocks, dairy is deemed to account for about 50% of
NZ's greenhouse gas emissions. There are debates here about whether or not
the country's farmers need to cull their herds, use as yet undeveloped
(future) technologies, GM to modify the herd to reduce emissions etc.

I don't think the kind of diary farming New Zealand does is sustainable -
one tiny country producing and exporting such a disproportionate amount of
the world's milk seems out of kilter to me, but if New Zealand farming
practice already uses outdoor herd grazing, rotational practices that leave
land fallow for periods of time, and it still produces a nett greenhouse
gas surplus, then what does this all mean? Obviously vegans would say stop
drinking milk, stop any kind of animal farming, but I don't buy that as a
genuine solution.

Thoughts?
John

On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 5:14 AM DW via Marxism 
wrote:

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>
> an excellent overview. I fully support the views of this article and have
> written a more extensive essay that dovetails with it here:
>
> https://oaklandsocialist.com/2018/10/10/developing-a-marxist-approach-to-global-agriculture-a-primer-on-the-role-of-animals-in-maintaining-soil-health/
>
> I've visited the Marin Carbon Farming Project as well. The author leaves
> out the most important aspect of this and other similar projects:
> regenerative agriculture is based on the use of animal husbandry,
> specifically mob grazing of cattle, to sequester the carbon. The Marin
> project does a kind of "free range" but it works similarly.
>
> David
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Re: [Marxism] The Mueller Report: Glenn Greenwald vs. David Cay Johnston on Trump-Russia Ties, Obstruction & More

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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John Reimann writes, quoting Glenn Greenwald:
" I think that left and right as we understood them for the last four
decades
are starting to morph into pro-establishment and anti-establishment
dynamics and that will only continue." That last comment especially, in
which he dismisses a left-right divide, is the exact position of the likes
of Steve Bannon and Alexander Dugin."

I think part of the problem there is the confusion on the left these days.
For the likes of Bannon, anyone in or left of the Democrats is 'left', and
that encompasses a lot of different thinking, some of it having little or
nothing to say about class. So in a sense Greenwald is right. Some on the
"left" are generically anti-establishment. Until there is a genuine
significant movement on the left, distinguishing what left means and
separating it from incoherent anti-establishment thinking will be difficult.

Cheers,
John

On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 9:27 PM John Reimann via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> I'm not sure if Ralph Johanson was asking me to document my claims about
> Greenwald or if he was just commenting, but in case it's the former, here
> goes:
>
> I had written that he is a somewhat more subtle version of Ben Norton/Max
> Blumenthal and that he supports the Assadist, Tulsi Gabbard. I had
> forgotten to mention that he too supports Assad. He does so in a more
> subtle way than do Blumenthal and Norton, for example in this article:
>
> https://theintercept.com/2017/04/07/the-spoils-of-war-trump-lavished-with-media-and-bipartisan-praise-for-bombing-syria/
> Note
> how he implies that US policy has been regime change in Syria and how he
> casts doubt on who was responsible for the gas attack there.
>
> As for his support for Gabbard, see this article:
>
>
> https://www.businessinsider.com/tulsi-gabbard-homophobic-history-defended-tucker-carlson-glenn-greenwald-2019-1
>   This article also documents his collaboration with Tucker Carlson. This
> article (
>
> https://www.mediaite.com/tv/glenn-greenwald-rips-msnbc-to-tucker-carlson-they-fed-people-total-disinformation-and-exploited-fears-on-russia/
> )
> does likewise. It also shows how he aligns himself with the likes of Jeremy
> Scahill.
>
>
> As for his defense of the red-brown alliance and his equating the Tea Party
> with Occupy, see this interview he did with RT while he was in Russia
> https://www.rt.com/usa/432042-greenwald-rt-interview-moscow/ In it he is
> quoted as saying, "Two of the most important protest movements in the US –
> one was the Tea Party, the other was Occupy Wall Street – were both
> perceived to be on different ends of the political spectrum. Yet they had
> very similar issues in common. They were protesting the bailout of Wall
> Street after the Wall Street crisis, the domination of corporations I
> think that left and right as we understood them for the last four decades
> are starting to morph into pro-establishment and anti-establishment
> dynamics and that will only continue." That last comment especially, in
> which he dismisses a left-right divide, is the exact position of the likes
> of Steve Bannon and Alexander Dugin.
>
> In that interview, Greenwald continues "There are factions within the
> intelligence community of the United States, the NSA, the CIA, the FBI that
> hate Donald Trump and will do anything to destroy him, including leaking
> classified information against him." While Greenwald dismisses the
> Trump-Russia collusion as "conspiracy theory", it is he, himself, who
> engages in this sort of nonsense here. Why would these "factions" inside
> the CIA, etc. hate Trump? The reason given by his type in the past is that
> "Trump wants peace". Is that what he's claiming?
>
> Greenwald an "exceptionally astute, well-informed spokesperson"? Hardly.
>
> Johanson dismisses my criticisms of Greenwald as being ad hominem attacks,
> but in considering the views of a commentator on a particular issue it is
> perfectly legitimate to consider their overall views. And I do think that
> Greenwald's overall views mean that he's not to be taken seriously.
>
> John Reimann
>
> --
> *“In politics, abstract terms conceal treachery.” *from "The Black
> Jacobins" by C. L. R. James
> Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
> 

Re: [Marxism] a thought on Badiou on the Gilets Jaunes

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Every organisation that ever was was a contradictory formation surely. I
think for some people no group or movement will ever be pure enough.

Cheers,
John

On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 1:24 PM Gary MacLennan via Marxism <
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>
> I am far from an expert on France or French politics and so was very
> pleased to see Badiou's thoughts on that movement.  But I cannot say I
> agree with his conclusions. I suspect that his characterisation of the
> movement is fairly correct when it comes to their reactive nostalgic
> nature. But to condemn them for not waving the red flag seems to me to be
> highly sectarian. Whatever the nuances of their politics the fact is that
> they are being brutalised each weekend by the State and that moves me to
> sympathy at least.
>
> Clearly they are a contradictory formation, but surely if one was in France
> one would be supporting them at some level?
>
> comradely
>
> Gary
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Re: [Marxism] Protest in Miraflores

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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The USA is probably a more appealing destination the Colombia.

Cheers,
John

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 12:42 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> *****
>
> On 4/2/19 12:39 AM, John Edmundson via Marxism wrote:
> > Without the sanctions, but with Maduro and all his faults, do you think
> > Venezuelans would be leaving in such numbers for a better life in
> Colombia?
>
> The images of the Cuban exodus are unforgettable.
>
> 1980: Shrimp boats jammed with refugees sailing from Mariel to Key West.
> In five months, 125,266 arrived in a tumultuous exodus that forever
> changed Cuba and South Florida.
>
> 1994: Flimsy rafts of wood and inner tubes overloaded with Cubans float
> in the Florida Straits. After dramatic U.S. Coast Guard rescues, and
> months in limbo at dusty camps in the U.S. Naval Base at Guantánamo Bay,
> 35,000 settled in Dade County.
>
> Twice in two decades, Cuban leader Fidel Castro opened wide the gates to
> his island and allowed disaffected Cubans to leave en masse for the
> United States. But the floodgates were never really closed throughout
> his decades in power.
>
>
> full:
>
> https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/cuba/article117194848.html
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Re: [Marxism] Protest in Miraflores

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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I saw an item on Al Jazeera this morning about a woman who left for
Colombia with her grandmother, hoping to be able to get insulin for her, as
it has become unavailable in Venezuela. Tragically, the grandmother died.
The truth is that without the blockade, insulin would have been available
in Venezuela. On the other hand, had the woman been a poor Colombian, what
chance would she have had of receiving the insulin she needed to survive
even that long. That question was not asked in the item. So the story is a
human tragedy, I have no reason to believe it's untrue, and it is being
replicated many times over, but it isn't the whole story. What's going on
in Venezuela is,in part, the fault of Maduro and the corruption in his
government, partly the retreat from some of the best bits of Chavismo,
partly the fact that a single third word country can't really build
"socialism in one country" and partly the fact that the US has backed the
coup plotters with massive sanctions. It's not an either / or situation.
There were huge Sandinista rallies right before the party was voted out of
power - rallying with their hearts and voting with their stomachs - was how
I heard it explained. There is not necessarily a contradiction between
people still "supporting Maduro" , and on the other hand trying to get to
Colombia because it looks like offering a better life right now.

Without the sanctions, but with Maduro and all his faults, do you think
Venezuelans would be leaving in such numbers for a better life in Colombia?
Because Colombia doesn't usually rank high on Marxists' lists of top
countries to be in.

Cheers,
John

On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 1:27 AM John Reimann via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> *
>
> Here is a video of a protest in Caracas. The woman in the video is saying
> "more than eight days without electricity or water."
>
> http://elpitazo.net/gran-caracas/video-alrededores-de-miraflores-llenos-de-protestas-y-exigencias-de-cambio-este-31marzo/
>
> It is also interesting to note that none of the reports that defend Maduro
> mention that 10% of the population (over 3 million people) have fled the
> country. I saw one video of people walking and hitch hiking for four days
> to reach Colombia. If things are more or less normal there, if the support
> for Maduro remains so widespread, then how can that be?
>
> John Reimann
>
> --
> *“In politics, abstract terms conceal treachery.” *from "The Black
> Jacobins" by C. L. R. James
> Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
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Re: [Marxism] Algerian activist criticises NZ liberal women wearing hijab as 'solidarity' re the mosque murders

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Here's what I wrote in response to this post on Redline:

I absolutely support Marieme Helie Lucas comments about the cancelling of
the atheist speaker in Canada. But the wearing of the veil as a statement
of solidarity is a very different issue. Of course in places like Iran and
Algeria women have been attacked and killed for not wearing the veil. It is
important that the left does not confuse solidarity with Muslims with
support for fundamentalism. But at the moment, the actual enemy of Muslims
in Christchurch was a white nationalist killer who sees someone the wearing
of a veil as a legitimate target for execution. The circumstances are very
different so the symbolism of an action are also different.

A woman I know who decided to wear the hijab for a day did her regular 15
minute duty outside the school gate 1km from the Linwood Muslim centre
where some of the killings occurred. Within that 15 minutes, she was told
at least six times to fuck off by passing drivers. No one on the staff is
now under any illusions about the level of racist abuse Muslims, and
particularly women, are subjected to on a daily basis. On the other hand,
giving zakaat would be an invisible act of solidarity in terms of sending a
message to the people whose white supremacist politics have given support
to this killer. And of course, in a sense, people have done that too,
because crowd sourcing pages have raised large amounts of money to support
the survivors of the massacre.

Ironically, I've just recently been engaged in an argument with a woman who
also objected to the veil because, as a woman, she saw it as a mark of
women's subservience and wanted to raise veiling as an campaign worth
raising now. In my opinion it would actually divert attention from the
solidarity issue into a campaign Islamophobes could feel comfortable in. I
asked her if her solidarity with women forced to wear the veil would extend
to supporting their right of return to her "home", from whence they had
been expelled in 1948. I haven't heard from her since.

We have to see the differences between our situation in New Zealand, where
White Nationalism is the immediate threat and the situation of struggle in
Muslim majority countries where Islamic fundamentalism is the threat.
Different situation, different tactics.

Cheers,
John

On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 4:44 PM Philip Ferguson via Marxism <
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>
> "New Zealand Prime Minister Ms Jacinda Ardern, followed by other officials
> (and then by ordinary citizens as well) saw it fit to wear a so-called
> Islamic head covering during their public functions.
>
> "We believe that there were many other symbols that could have been chosen
> in order to comfort Muslim believers, than one which is contested the world
> over by women of Muslim heritage, - believers and unbelievers alike. . . .
>
> full at:
>
> https://rdln.wordpress.com/2019/03/27/open-letter-from-algerian-woman-activist-on-the-wearing-headscarves/
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Re: [Marxism] Dr Who the leftist | Matthew Trinder | The Morning Star

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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I can't agree with this article's positive spin on the Rosa Parks episode
of Dr Who. It's the only episode I've seen in years and I stumbled upon it
by accident and thought it was awful. Rosa Parks' action, a well planned
act which she had prepared herself for as part of a civil rights campaign,
was reduced, in this Dr Who episode, to an accidental act of defiance by a
tired woman on her way home from work. The Doctor and co have to ensure
that she gets on the right bus and when she wants to stay on to get some
work finished, they have to orchestrate a means to ensure that she gets on
the right bus. She has no idea that she is part of any movement. It's
actually the "white" Doctor who knows all, and ensures that the Black Civil
Rights Movement gets underway. Rosa is an unwitting pawn in the whole
"white run" event. I think the entire episode was embarrassing and a huge
missed opportunity to actually tell the story of Rosa Parks. The fact that
Dr Who has had a tradition of anti-racism doesn't mean every writer for the
show has a good perspective.

John

On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 3:58 AM Kevin Lindemann and Cathy Campo via Marxism
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> https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/dr-who-leftist
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Re: [Marxism] Erdogan uses Christchurch attack to demonise Peoples Democratic Party

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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The desperation in Erdogan's actions are there for all to see. Not a single
Turk was killed or wounded as far as I know.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/19/world/asia/new-zealand-shooting-victims-names.html

He has backtracked slightly since but I doubt it has been widely reported
to his domestic audience. Of course around about now is when a lot of young
NZ and Australian travelers go to Turkey to commemorate the Gallipoli
landings of April 25th 1915. Of course this is actually an antipodean
contribution to British imperialist ambitions but it's still presented here
in NZ as the forging of our nation.

Christchurch, and NZ as a whole, has been being defined by the outpouring
of love and support that has occurred. And there has been that. But of
course that hasn't been the whole picture. Being a week now since the
massacre, a lot of women decided to wear hijab in solidarity. A colleague
of mine did her 15 minute duty slot on the school gate this morning wearing
the hijab. In that 15 minutes, she was told to "fuck off" on at least six
occasions by passing drivers; this has never happened to her before. The
school we work at is only 1km from the Linwood Mosque and the cars were
either coming from or driving to the intersection where the cordon still
stands. That suggests the outpouring of love for our Muslim community is
far from unanimous. There have been other moments though that do show that
positive side. Today as I pulled up at that intersection, a woman was
leaving the vigil that has stood outside the mosque every day since last
Friday. She was wearing the hijab. As she walked in front of the car she
stopped, turned and pointed to her skirt. She had written "Christchurch"
across the front. She then turned round and she had written "We stand
together" on the back.

No city is completely free of white supremacists. There's been an
insulation contractor whose vans have been driving around Christchurch with
a Sonnenrad logo and a claim that their pricing starts at $14.88/m2 (14 for
"the 14 words" and 88 for "Heil Hitler"). He's been gaoled for forwarding
the shooter's live streamed video but he's been flaunting his politics like
that for years. One good thing to have come out of this is a heightened
awareness of the discrimination Muslims and other minorities face, which
white New Zealanders have been largely oblivious to, or convinced
themselves was an aberration.

Cheers,
John

On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 12:12 PM Chris Slee via Marxism <
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> https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/erdogan-uses-christchurch-attack-demonise-people%E2%80%99s-democratic-party
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[Marxism] NZ mosque attacks

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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I have felt that I should write something about the events of March 15th
here in Christchurch, but I've struggled to think what to write that
actually adds anything that people don't already know. I can make a couple
of comments on things a few politicians have said.

Mayor Lianne Dalziel came out saying that in her years in politics in
Christchurch (a Labour member of Parliament for working class Christchurch
East for 23 years, Cabinet Minister from 2002-2008, followed by mayor since
2013), she had never been aware of far right political activity in
Christchurch. Anyone who has the slightest political awareness in
Christchurch knows that this city has been a key centre of organising for
the far right in New Zealand. This is not to suggest that the far right is
strong, it hasn't been and the perpetrator has turned out to be from
Australia, but the dishonesty of claiming Christchurch to have been free of
white supremacist politics was quite brazen.

Jacinda Ardern, current Prime Minister at the head of a Labour-led
coalition government, has said all the right things - that "we" aren't
intolerant, blah blah". But she hasn't pointed out that New Zealand has had
troops continuously deployed in the Middle East since 1954. There have been
NZ combat troops in Afghanistan since 2001 and she's re-extended the
deployment. They were recently found to have committed an atrocity against
a group of villagers, but oh, the "inquiry" found that it was one rogue
soldier who's since left the military. When our army are fighting Muslims
(jihadis, insurgents, terrorists), 'protecting' Israel from Muslims, doing
reconstruction work for Muslims who are seen as incapable of helping
themselves, it's hardly surprising that Islamophobia, the acceptable racism
for our time, has taken root in New Zealand. The vast bulk of New
Zealanders have, I believe, been genuine in their shock and their goodwill.
But it's no thanks to Ardern or Dalziel, and Muslims here, both refugee and
New Zealand born, have reported harassment in the time they've lived here.
Even when it was very clear that this was an Islamophobic attack on a
mosque, some of my students (15 year olds) thought this was an Islamist
attack - it just fitted their paradigm.

John Edmundson


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Re: [Marxism] Democrats More Positive About Socialism Than Capitalism

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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I do find results like this heartening, not through any illusion in the
Democratic Party, but because it does suggest that the Cold War era where
socialism was a dirty word may be losing its grip on the US. For all that
it's true that Bernie Sanders et al are not really socialists, I do think
that they can take some of the credit for that state breaking down.

Cheers,
John

On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 5:03 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> Granted that this means that they support a Scandinavian style welfare
> state, it is still significant.
>
>
> https://news.gallup.com/poll/240725/democrats-positive-socialism-capitalism.aspx
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Re: [Marxism] A Nuclear Site Guard Accused Colleagues of Sexual Assault. Then She Was Fired.

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Sounds like "North Country" all over again . . .

On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 3:54 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> NY Times, Jan. 25, 2019
> A Nuclear Site Guard Accused Colleagues of Sexual Assault. Then She Was
> Fired.
> By Katie Benner
>
> Smoke blinded the security guards inside a warehouse at a nuclear
> weapons facility in Nevada. Clangs and shouts filled the air.
>
> Amid the din, a guard named Jennifer Glover was thrown to the ground,
> handcuffed and hit across the face with the butt of a gun. One man ran
> his hands up her legs, she said, then grabbed her buttocks and groin.
> Another flipped her over, reached into her top to grab her breasts and
> ripped out her nipple ring.
>
> By the time the smoke cleared, they had disappeared.
>
> Ms. Glover could not identify her attackers. But she said she knew they
> were her colleagues, fellow guards taking part in a training exercise at
> the Energy Department’s highly classified Nevada National Security Site,
> where researchers and scientists conduct top-secret nuclear experiments
> and develop responses to chemical, biological and nuclear emergencies.
>
> The encounter in November 2017 followed months of sexual harassment that
> she said began soon after she was hired. Her troubles worsened after she
> reported the attack: Men continued to harass and intimidate her, she
> said, and they accused her of informing on them. She was reprimanded for
> calling out sick, which she said she did to avoid her attackers, and was
> ordered to undergo psychiatric evaluations.
>
> “Work went from being so exciting to being a nightmare,” said Ms.
> Glover, who described her experience in an interview with The New York
> Times, as did three other current or former security guards, all of whom
> she had confided in as the events unfolded.
>
> Ms. Glover accused her co-workers, called security police officers, or
> SPOs, of repeated harassment.
>
> Her accusations highlighted an entrenched culture of discrimination and
> retaliation on her team, known as the Proforce, that employees say
> flourished under two government contractors, Centerra and SOC, according
> to the interviews; Equal Employment Opportunity Commission complaints
> she filed against the contractors; and a review of internal documents,
> including emails between Ms. Glover and human resources managers.
>
> “A significant portion of the Proforce do not believe they can raise a
> safety issue without fear of reprisal,” officials wrote in a 2015 health
> and safety report by the Energy Department.
>
> The attack on Ms. Glover underscores the difficulty of changing a
> hypermasculine culture, even as accounts of workplace sexual harassment
> and assault have drawn widespread condemnation and pledges to do better
> in the #MeToo era.
>
> Ms. Glover was never told whether management identified or disciplined
> her attackers. After the encounter, two guards were suspended for days
> for “knowingly spreading false and malicious stories or rumors about
> other employees,” according to letters between Centerra and their union
> representative obtained by The Times. Their role in Ms. Glover’s attack,
> if any, was unclear.
>
> Ultimately, after The Times began asking about the attack, Ms. Glover
> was fired for scheduling infractions and taking a photo of her schedule,
> which SOC called “company documents.” Her use of profanity also placed
> “the safety of the site in jeopardy,” according to her termination
> letter from SOC, which began managing the security force last spring.
>
> Ms. Glover’s termination letter cited her use of profanity and “general
> disrespect.”
>
> Centerra, the nuclear site’s security contractor at the time of the
> assault, declined to comment beyond saying that it creates “work
> environments free from all forms of harassment and retaliation.” A
> spokeswoman for SOC, Holly Holt, said this article contained
> “significant inaccuracies in the facts and premise” but declined to be
> more specific.
>
> “We expect our contractors to address any allegations of inappropriate
> behavior and hold employees accountable for any misconduct that occurs
> following a full and timely investigation,” said Lindsey Geisler, a
> spokeswoman for the Energy Department.
>
> Early Worries
>
> When a recruiter for Centerra reached 

Re: [Marxism] Venezuela Military Backs Maduro, as Russia Warns U.S. Not to Intervene

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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From the NY Times article:
". . . the oil-rich and formerly prosperous country upended by political
repression and severe economic
hardship under Mr. Maduro."

So the economic hardship came with Maduro then. Did the NY Times ever refer
to Venezuela as prosperous under Chavez?

John

On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 10:57 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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> On 1/24/19 3:57 PM, STEVEN ROBINSON via Marxism wrote:
> >
> > Still, it seems that Mr. Guaidó MUST have some backing in the military,
> police or other coercive apparatus.
>
> Venezuela 'foils national guard rebellion' against Maduro
>
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-46945690
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Re: [Marxism] Impeach Trump Now - The Atlantic

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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This article seems to me an example of an unfounded reverence for the
infallibility of the US Constitution: "It is absurd to suggest that the
Constitution would delineate a mechanism too potent to ever actually be
employed." Actually it is perfectly possible for the constitution to be
flawed, it allows for slavery after all.

It surprises me that these people are so keen to impeach Trump. Do they
really see a rosier future under President Pence?

Cheers,
John

On Sat, Jan 19, 2019 at 2:13 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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Re: [Marxism] The-Opportunity-Costs-of-Socialism.pdf [not sent]

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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In New Zealand we have a national health-care scheme that has its origins
mainly in a deal between the private medical sector (GPs etc, but excluding
dentists, who refused to buy in) and the 1st Labour government in the
1930s. t was a classic part of Labour's 'rescue capitalism from itself'
plan in the depression, but it did at least give us access to a hospital.
It demonstrates all the inadequacies suggested by the two previous posters
but still seems vastly better than a fully private (or Obamacare type)
model. My wife has had ten operations (plus numerous scans etc) in the last
ten years, one operation was private because her rich brother in law paid
for it. This resulted mainly in avoiding a six-month wait. One was carried
out in a private hospital because the specialist doctors tend to work in
private practice for part of their time and do some hours in the state
system, so the state sector farms some procedures out to the
private hospitals. On at least one occasion she's had the same surgeon
operate in both the private and public system. the public system is always
struggling but I will say that once you are in (the system has accepted
your GP's referral), you are in and we've found the staff to be really good.

I'd take this system any day over the kind of abomination that passes for a
hospital system in the States but it's still far from socialism. The
alternative, largely insurance funded private system that runs parallel to
the public hospitals doesn't cover accident and emergency and other high
risk, low margin work, provides hotel style facilities with cable TV and
blah blah blah, but increasingly we're seeing the same problems that the US
faces with staff in the insurance companies being employed to find the
loopholes (like "was this a pre-existing condition?" etc) to avoid paying
out.

Cheers,
John

On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 7:06 AM jgreen--- via Marxism <
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>
> On 24 Oct 2018 at 19:23, Ralph Johansen via Marxism wrote:
>
> >>> Thoughts on single payer which, no less than Medicare, is at best a
> > way
> > station to what everyone deserves as birthright: adequate preventive
> > and
> > curative health assistance, at commensurate costs which do not
> > obscenely
> > enrich a few. In other words, it's an arrangement which if
> > implemented
> > still masks serious shortcomings. Present single payer schemes from
> > what
> > I see would not at all disturb the over all regime of the
> > pharmaceutical/medical complex in this country. ...
>
> Indeed! I strongly agree that the issue isn't simply financing the health
> care, and
> that single-payer would be simply one step forward, albeit a very
> important one.
>
> Back in 2007 I prepared a chart comparing four different things,
> * the present US system
> * Calif. and Mass. plans
> * national health care
> * socialist medicine.
>
> See.
> http://www.communistvoice.org/40cChart.html
>
> Being prepared before the ACA (Obamacare), it didn't include that. But it
> provided
> a framework that could deal with that as well.
>
> I prefaced it as follows:
>
> "A single-payer system of national health insurance would be a tremendous
> advance on the present system, but it still will not be socialist care. It
> will be
> subject to cost containment and budget-cutting, as all social benefits
> have been in
> the period of neo-liberal economic restructuring of the last few decades,
> and it will
> be important for the working class to insist that national health
> insurance is truly
> universal and covers all residents of this country, including the
> undocumented
> immigrants. Meanwhile the California and Massachusetts plans would funnel
> yet
> more money to private insurers, have a hard time finding the money to do
> so,
> continue the privatization of social services, and despite their promises,
> will not
> solve the problem of universal coverage."
>
> And I elaborted on this in such articles such as "What would socialist
> health care
> be like?"  I contrasted a truly socialist system with capitalist medicine
> on such
> topics as
>
> -Universal coverage vs. private insurance
> -The limits of single-payer plans and national health care
> -It's still connected to profit
> -What is socialism?
> -Universality
> -Preventive care
> -Two-tier care
> -At the work place
> -Pollution
> 

Re: [Marxism] Tom Waits releases anti-fascist folk ballad, his first new song in 2 years

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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I first heard this Tom Waits rendition on the car radio this weekend -
being played on our state-owned radio station. I assumed I was hearing some
obscure old Waits recording that I hadn't known about so as soon as I got
home I wanted to find out more about it. I was surprised to find RNZ
National was playing a track from a new album of revolutionary songs. I
wish that signified something . . .

John

On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 12:20 PM Ken Hiebert via Marxism <
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>
>
> https://news.avclub.com/tom-waits-releases-anti-fascist-folk-ballad-his-first-1829013036
> <
> https://news.avclub.com/tom-waits-releases-anti-fascist-folk-ballad-his-first-1829013036
> >
>
> AVNEWS
>
> Tom Waits releases anti-fascist folk ballad, his first new song in 2 years
>
> Sam Barsanti
>
> It's been a while since we had any new Tom Waits music, but he's back with
> a new version of a very old song that is depressingly relevant for the
> world we're in today. As reported by Pitchfork, the track is 'Bella Ciao',a
> collaboration with guitarist Marc Ribot for his upcoming album Songs Of
> Resistance 1948-2018. If you don't recognize the name, 'Bella Ciao' was an
> Italian folk ballad that was revised and re-written during World War II for
> the Italian anti-fascist resistance fighters, and it has since become an
> anthem of sorts for anyone looking to stick it to fascists.
>
> The song also comes with a video (directed by Jem Cohen) that makes its
> parallels with modern life very explicit, pairing Waits' vocals with
> footage of police and soldiers guarding barricades at anti-Trump protests.
> It may sound heavy-handed, but fuck it, nobody said fighting fascists had
> to be subtle.
>
>
> Video: Marc Ribot - "Bella Ciao (Goodbye Beautiful)" (feat. Tom Waits) <
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2=50GvkAO0OIg>
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[Marxism] [UCE] Re: excerpts from an excellent critique of "self-help" books

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Useful yes, but the continual use of the term neoliberal in articles like
this irritates me. In every place that the word neoliberal appeared, the
word capitalism would have fitted equally well. Using the term neoliberal
actually lets capitalism off the hook; it's only a particularly venal,
Gordon Gekko type of capitalism that denies the existence of collective
benefit. Ordinary capitalism is somehow the benevolent lost golden age.
This isn't extreme capitalism we're living in. It's run of the mill, boom
bust capitalism that should be called what it is.

Cheers,
John

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 6:09 AM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism <
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>
> A really useful article, thanks.
> Question: where in this context would you place bell hooks and other
> movement figures who've written about self-help/self-love for activists?
>
>
> >
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[Marxism] Ann Coulter's attacks on Trump

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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http://www.thedailybeast.com/ann-coulter-on-trump-i-bet-on-a-loser

Does this mean the theory that the right always saw Trump as a means to get
Pence was correct or is that just conspiracy mongering?

Cheers,
John
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Re: [Marxism] Dunkirk, the War and the Amnesia of the Empire

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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David wrote:

"Yes...there were Indian Muslim troops at Dunkirk. 4 companies to be exact.
That equals approx 1,000 to 1,600 troops...out of 400,000 or, about 1/4 of
1% of the total."

Technically, if 4 companies is correct it would have been more like about
4-600, because a British (or British Indian) company was only about 150
strong. But Khan's point is still a valid one. She really only uses Nolan's
film as a topical way to raise the issue of the "invisibility" of Britain's
colonial/Empire troops. As a New Zealander, I'm very aware of the role of
NZ troops', including the Maori Battalion's, role in the war, fighting at
El Alamein, Monte Cassino etc. I'm well aware of Australia's involvement
too, in the Desert War and later in the Pacific. I'm aware of the Canadian
Army's role in Normandy on D-Day and beyond. I've even seen reference to
the South African troops at Tobruk etc. But what do these British
Commonwealth/Empire countries all have in common? That's the point Khan
wanted to make and I think it's valid. Of course, film makers can't
incorporate all minorities into every film they make and watching Dunkirk,
I was just relieved to see the French being depicted as other than cowards
or irrelevant. Without knowing the specifics of which French units were
involved in holding the line while the Brits were evacuated, I couldn't
comment on David's suggestion that French colonial troops could plausibly
have been depicted in the film.

But the point remains that the role that Britain's non-white Imperial
possessions played and the price they paid, is not part of the mainstream
narrative of Britain's experience of WW2 and if the release of a big budget
movie by a celebrity director like Christopher Nolan presents an
opportunity for someone to make that point in the NY Times, then I say good
on Yasmin Khan for getting herself published there.

Cheers,
John

On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 9:00 AM, DW via Marxism 
wrote:

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>
> The reviewer in criticizing C. Nolan, for his film 'Dunkirk' made a rather
> interesting omission. In deriding Nolan over his lack of people of color
> (save for one of the two scenes of *French* troops in the film). What the
> reviewer fails to draw on are any...facts. Yes...there were Indian Muslim
> troops at Dunkirk. 4 companies to be exact. That equals approx 1,000 to
> 1,600 troops...out of 400,000 or, about 1/4 of 1% of the total. I have no
> doubt that Nolan wanted to enforce the collective amnesia of Britain over
> the role of the Colonial Troops of which, the review noted, were over
> 2,000,000. But there were not 2,000,000 at Dunkirk OR in the whole British
> Army...most of these were recruited after Dunkirk.
>
> There were then two scenes that *should* of included the various South
> Asian and African participants that WOULD of made sense: the crews of
> various ships which is noted to have been over 50% and were not shown, and
> the scene of the one the British soldiers who makes it to French lines
> guarding the rear at Dunkirk, they could of shown the double-digit % of
> French African troops. That would of made sense. But on the beaches? I
> don't think so it was necessarily deliberate based on what I know about the
> composition of the British soldiers seeking to escape capture.
>
> David
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Re: [Marxism] PYD: US bombing of airbase good, but it should bomb rebels too

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Chris Slee writes:


   Michael Karadjis claims that Saleh Muslim made a "spurious assertion
   about an alleged use of chlorine" by the rebels.

   Readers can look at Amnesty International's report on the siege of
   Sheikh Maqsoud (a predominantly Kurdish neighbourhood of Aleppo) by some
   rebel groups and decide for themselves if the accusation is "spurious":


   
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/05/syria-armed-opposition-groups-committing-war-crimes-in-aleppo-city/

   This amnesty article includes the following, which suggests that on one
   isolated occasion a chemical weapon was used: I would suspect from the
   context that someone found and used one, and was being dealt with for it,
   although what that means is anyone's guess. It's still comparing apples and
   oranges (or watermelons and grapes) to liken this one incident to the
   regime's record.
  "A toxicologist consulted by Amnesty International, who viewed
  video-clips of the apparent attack and reviewed the doctor’s testimony,
  said the patients’ symptoms could be the effects of a chlorine attack. A
  subsequent statement purportedly issued by the leader of the
Army of Islam
  armed group said that a field commander had deployed an “unauthorised
  weapon” on Sheikh Maqsoud and that he would be held to account."
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[Marxism] What's up with this?

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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   . . . supporting Trump


   . . .  pro-Trump


   . . . smearing Hillary


   . . . negatives around Hillary

Why is it that Trump is always Trump but Clinton (or Rodham Clinton but she
seems to have dropped that of late . . .) is always Hillary. Do these
people know her personally or is there a sort of familiarity that the
Democratic Party engenders in its supporters? Perhaps it's a Democratic
Party thing, like, you know, like "Hey Bill, how many Somalis 'ya killed
today?" or "Hey Barack! Dropped any Hellfire missiles on Yemen lately?"

Puzzled,
John
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[Marxism] Thanks . . .

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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. . . to everyone who responded to my query.

Regards,
John
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[Marxism] Request re ACW, ante-bellum South etc

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Hi,
I'm teaching a bunch of 16-18 year old history students and we're looking
at the causes and consequences of the American Civil War.

We have started looking at the nature of the Southern States pre-war and
the nature of US chattel slavery. They need to understand issues like the
idea that if the Union had not pressured the South (over things like
Lincoln's plan to not expand slavery into new states), slavery might have
died out anyway. At this stage I have suggested to them that chattel
slavery was more robust and flexible than pre-modern slavery (eg slave
owners could hire out their slaves to the railway building companies etc)
and that therefor the institution could conceivably have survived a lot
longer. I pointed out to them that slave owners could choose to make more
"conventional" investment choices but chose to reinvest in slaves and
cotton lands as a means of achieving a return - that "unfree" slave labour
is different from "unfree" peasant labour in that it can be sold to another
slaver where a peasant is bound to the land. I've suggested that in many
ways US slavery was a distorted version of capitalism rather than a whole
different pre-modern economic system.

However I feel a bit out of my depth here and have been improvising a bit.
I wonder if anyone could point me to some accessible online resources on
this question (and the Civil War issue itself) that I could use.

Obviously when we come to the consequences, I'll be looking at
reconstruction, the enduring legacy (Jim Crow etc), ongoing loyalty to the
Southern flag with all that that suggests, popular culture (music etc). I
know there are lots of US people on this list and y'all know about this
stuff . . .

Thanks in anticipation,
John
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Re: [Marxism] Regarding Russian Airstrikes

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Ron wrote:
"We should be talking about the current situation, which is partially the
result of the US decision to not support the progressive rebels of Gopal's
article, but the socially reactionary ones."

But of course that was who the US would back. It's what they do. If we
abandoned every revolutionary struggle because the US found some compliant
faction to support, we would rule out revolution everywhere, and the US's
job would be made very easy. We would not have supported the anti-apartheid
movement because the US liked Buthilezi. We would not have supported the
MPLA because the US supported Unita. Etc.

If I have to choose between a mass murderer with Israel's seal of approval
and a less than perfect resistance, I'll support the resistance. And saying
"a plague on both their houses" won't cut it.
Cheers,
John
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Re: [Marxism] on economics & Michael Roberts

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Shalva wrote:

"I can't say that I've read much of Michael Roberts' non-blog work (or that
of the other new prophets of "the tendency" like Carchedi and Kliman), but
I have to agree with the old RPE critique (explicated best in Howard
Sherman's work) of their intellectual forefathers that "the tendency" is a
technologically determinant view of capitalism that leaves little to no
room for the political."

Marx's entire life's work is premised on the fact that workers have the
capacity to organise to replace capitalism. Given that reality, that some
Marxists feel the need to claim that the LTRPF "leaves little to no room
for the political" is slightly odd. If it were an inflexible "technologically
determinant view of capitalism", it would have either been objectively
disproved or we would be on an inexorable and rapid path toward the
overthrow of capitalism and the establishment of communism. Instead, the
'LTRPF' is quite clearly described as just that, a *tendency*, and subject
to many countervailing forces, which makes for a fluid and unpredictable
world. It is precisely within that fluidity and unpredictability that the "room
for the political" exists.

Certainly there have been Marxists in the past, and I am sure there are
some today, who see these things in mechanistic and inevitable, rather than
dynamic and dialectical ways. That such people and views exist does not
disprove the LTRPF.
Cheers,
John
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Re: [Marxism] Australia will take Syrian refugees, by Christ

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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   John Passant wrote:


   "Germany will on current estimates take 800,000 refugees this year.
   Germany and Australia are comparable rich countries. Germany has not quite
   four times Australia's population. So why aren't we talking about Australia
   taking 200,000 refugees this year? We used to take that if not more
   migrants. We could do it easily."


   Australia will on current estimates take 12,000 additional refugees this
   year. Australia and New Zealand are comparable rich countries. Australia
   has not quite five times New Zealand's population. So why aren't we talking
   about New Zealand taking 2,500 refugees this year? We typically take far
   more migrants. We could do it easily.


   Many New Zealanders look across 'the ditch' and criticise the Australian
   government's horrific policy of internment on Nauru, and I understand that.
   But New Zealand takes only 750 refugees per year (although the full quota
   is often not even filled) and PM John Key's* great humanitarian response to
   the current crisis is to take an extra 600 Syrian refugees over the next
   two years. That's right, we don't even take in 1000 a year. The figure was
   set at 800 in 1987 and *reduced* to 750 in 1997. It is due to be reviewed
   next year but I'm not holding my breath for much change.


   New Zealand loves to appear to have the high moral ground - when the
   Howard government in Australia refused to take in the Tampa refugees (the
   Tampa was a ship full of Afghan refugees), New Zealand Prime Minister Helen
   Clark 'stepped up' and offered to take them all in. Great humanitarian act
   eh! Except these became part of our 750 quota, so all they did was queue
   jump other refugees. It was all about looking good but doing nothing.


   Cheers,


   John Edmundson


   *  Ironically, Key himself is the son of a Jewish refugee from Nazi
   occupation, who grew up in a modest state house close to where I live, went
   to his local state school (which he, as Prime Minister, closed), got a
   state funded university education, then went on to become a
   multi-millionaire currency trader in the City of London, before returning
   home to grace us with his presence.
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Re: [Marxism] Agent Scully explains Karl Marx's theory of alienation

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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While I agree that 'The Fall' is great TV, I have one reservation about it,
and that isn't that the villain went on to play Christian Grey in 50 Shades.

I couldn't help but notice that the character of Anderson's boss is written
as a Catholic and I found myself wondering if that was a deliberate choice,
given that the RUC was a sectarian force and the PSNI is supposed to be a
non-sectarian symbol of the new Northern Ireland - hence the presence of a
high ranking Catholic in the show. I could be reading too much into it and
I'm not up to date with how successful Adams and co have been in getting
the PSNI to seem like a more neutral arm of the state. Others on this list
(eg Phil F) would be much more knowledgeable than I on this subject.
Cheers,
John

On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 6:47 AM, Mark Lause via Marxism 
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:

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 I second Louis's suggestion of The Fall.  I stumbled onto it via Netflix
 myself.   I suspect that she turned her success in the X-Files into a
 career that seems heavily centered on the UK at this point.

 Good for her.

 ML
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