Re: [Marxism] Could Sanders win? | Red Flag
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * It doesn't matter any more. Sanders isn't going to get the chance to do anything. We might as well be discussing Jesse Jackson or what-ifs about RFK . . . or William Jennings Bryan. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Could Sanders win? | Red Flag
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I've actually sworn off "lesser of two evilisms" on this list Sanders would re-instate DACA -- would stop separating children from parents ---would use his Labor Department to really combat wage theft --- would use his role as commander in chief to really begin to cut back on the American military empire --- would use his bully pulpit to wean as many of the white working class as possible away from fascism and xenophobia --- he would use the entire panoply (sp?) of the Federal Government to make sure that the population understands the dangers of climate change The education department would no longer be protecting rip-off private colleges --- Just check out the book OUR REVOLUTION for more aspects of his program --- (much of which, admittedly, requires Congrss --- but also there is a lot a President can do --- note what Trump has done with just executive orders which a PResident Sanders could reverse on day one) (And I agree with some of the other postings which answered this first challenge) _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Could Sanders win? | Red Flag
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 3/3/20 4:58 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: Very sharp analysis by an Australian Marxist who puts the Sandernista crap in Greenleft to shame. https://redflag.org.au/node/7048 From the same author on FB: Super Tuesday: 1. Forget any notion that the Democrats are not a party as we know it, are a ballot line, are a part of the state. They are a powerfully cohered political party with a big mass base. That base is trained to actively favour class collaboration and neoliberalism. Why wouldn't 70% of Democrats in California vote against Sanders? They are activists and fundraisers for Pelosi and Newsom. There are other currents in the Democrats but that is their base, as you would expect in a bourgeois party more than a century old. 1b) There is also a base of active and pretty conscious opposition to this which Sanders cultivates and relates to. Its size in real terms is hard to determine. 2. The black bureaucracy is probably the only bureaucracy in the USA that has made great sacrifices in struggle, appeared to win, and entered the ruling class while its constituency remains intensely oppressed. For that reason it is more influential than the union bureaucracy. 2b) but it only corrals a minority of the black population, and is weak among the young. It has been unable to contain major social outbursts even in the last five years. 3. Sanders has a serious dilemma that will affect how his campaign shapes consciousness. His hard supporters respond to left wing attacks on Biden, and upping the ante might be necessary to inspire them to keep fighting; but he also has to cultivate acceptance from the Democratic apparatus if he is going to really try to win. His supporters may increasingly be taught to accept, and admire, a cynical mixture of verbal denunciations with practical capitulations. This makes oppositional candidacies an effective way to restore the authority of apparently discredited institutions. 3b) but if he loses, the question of how to defeat America's bourgeoisie around health care and inequality will remain open to be answered, having been raised, and with the blame having been directed clearly towards the broad Democratic apparatus. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Could Sanders win? | Red Flag
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I don't know why people think that Bernie Sanders would be a revolutionary president. Has he been a revolutionary senator for the last fourteen years? a revolutionary congressman for the sixteen years before that? I have loosely followed Bernie's political activities since the 1970s; they have become totally electoral and appropriately circumspect. Bernie has focused on becoming a successful career politician of now nearly forty years. He now has a well developed careful populist rhetoric - not the systemic socialist criticism of the capitalist system that i first heard from him. Is supporting Bernie's election campaign an endorsement of electoral politics as the most effective way to work for fundamental social change? What if for the last four years Senator Bernie Sanders had made his priority putting time, energy and resources into building a mass movement for single-payer healthcare? What could Senator Sander's first-order commitment have done for Healthcare-Now! (healthcare-now.org), the Labor Campaign for Single-Payer (laborforsinglepayer.org), Physicians for a National Health Program (pnhp.org) and Health Over Profit for Everyone ( healthoverprofit.org)? Will movement building or Bernie Sander's personal electoral success turn out to be more decisive in ever achieving a single-payer healthcare system? On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 9:57 PM MM via Marxism wrote: > The sad history of the left is littered with this kind of > misrepresentation and false dichotomy. I didn’t for a moment espouse the > DSA / Jacobin line; not in the least. But maybe Lou needs a cheap foil to > vent against. > > Anyone who thinks a second Trump term affords a better opportunity to > “draw clear class lines” than would a Sanders presidency is a delusional > and dangerous accellerationist. The serious tactical question is how to > take advantage of the space a Sanders presidency would afford, under either > of the scenarios I mentioned, to draw those “clear class lines” and build > the forces necessary for more radical change. That requires political > education, among other things, and political education that doesn’t connect > with people’s concrete struggles is sectarian cultism. > > You want people to fight against the system? Give them healthcare and get > the debt burden that’s giving them anxiety attacks off their fucking backs. > Then tell them there’s more where that came from, including a future for > their children, but only if they’re willing to fight like hell for it. And > tell them to hold onto each other for dear life because it’s going to be > harder than anything they’ve ever done — harder than anything they’ve ever > imagined. And there’s homework — lots of homework. But hell, we got Bernie > elected despite everything they threw at us, so maybe we can win the rest > of it after all. Let’s give it our best shot, and if nothing else let’s go > out swinging. > > That’s what you tell them, or something like that, if you’re interested in > “resolving the crisis of revolutionary leadership.” Leadership doesn’t just > have an opinion or an analysis; it has a voice. Find that voice. Be that > voice. > > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Could Sanders win? | Red Flag
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * > On Mar 3, 2020, at 11:18 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism > wrote: > > On 3/3/20 10:30 PM, MM via Marxism wrote: >> The point of a Sanders Presidency isn’t that he’s going to usher in >> socialism or even make real inroads towards “structural reforms” (not sure >> what that means, actually), but that he either: >> 1. Makes progress towards reforms that make a real difference in people’s >> lives — healthcare, student debt, union rights — and / or towards reining in >> the fossil fuel industry and its enablers, which would be “not enough but >> better than nothing” in dealing with the ecological emergency(ies); >> or: >> 2. Is visibly and indisputably thwarted by “the establishment” at every turn >> in his efforts to do the kinds of things mentioned in #1 — which will almost >> certainly crystallize a wave of resistance among the millions of young >> people who are putting their hopes in the vision he has articulated as part >> of his campaign, and unleash a wave of civil disobedience the US hasn’t seen >> in decades. >> Either 1. or 2. would be a major step in the right direction. > > That's certainly the expectation of Jacobin/DSA but for those of us still > Quixotic to believe in the need for a socialist revolution, there's an > entirely different agenda that has to do with drawing clear class lines and > gathering together like-minded people for the long haul. > > Voting certainly makes a difference in peoples' lives. For example, I have > indigent relatives who are on Obamacare. It makes a real difference in their > lives. > > But facing monumental threats to the continuing existence of the human race > and life on earth and general, a different kind of tool is needed than the > one wielded by the Sandernistas. It might seem total like self-delusion but > the crisis of revolutionary leadership has to be resolved or else we will end > up like the brontosaurus. The sad history of the left is littered with this kind of misrepresentation and false dichotomy. I didn’t for a moment espouse the DSA / Jacobin line; not in the least. But maybe Lou needs a cheap foil to vent against. Anyone who thinks a second Trump term affords a better opportunity to “draw clear class lines” than would a Sanders presidency is a delusional and dangerous accellerationist. The serious tactical question is how to take advantage of the space a Sanders presidency would afford, under either of the scenarios I mentioned, to draw those “clear class lines” and build the forces necessary for more radical change. That requires political education, among other things, and political education that doesn’t connect with people’s concrete struggles is sectarian cultism. You want people to fight against the system? Give them healthcare and get the debt burden that’s giving them anxiety attacks off their fucking backs. Then tell them there’s more where that came from, including a future for their children, but only if they’re willing to fight like hell for it. And tell them to hold onto each other for dear life because it’s going to be harder than anything they’ve ever done — harder than anything they’ve ever imagined. And there’s homework — lots of homework. But hell, we got Bernie elected despite everything they threw at us, so maybe we can win the rest of it after all. Let’s give it our best shot, and if nothing else let’s go out swinging. That’s what you tell them, or something like that, if you’re interested in “resolving the crisis of revolutionary leadership.” Leadership doesn’t just have an opinion or an analysis; it has a voice. Find that voice. Be that voice. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Could Sanders win? | Red Flag
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 3/3/20 10:30 PM, MM via Marxism wrote: The point of a Sanders Presidency isn’t that he’s going to usher in socialism or even make real inroads towards “structural reforms” (not sure what that means, actually), but that he either: 1. Makes progress towards reforms that make a real difference in people’s lives — healthcare, student debt, union rights — and / or towards reining in the fossil fuel industry and its enablers, which would be “not enough but better than nothing” in dealing with the ecological emergency(ies); or: 2. Is visibly and indisputably thwarted by “the establishment” at every turn in his efforts to do the kinds of things mentioned in #1 — which will almost certainly crystallize a wave of resistance among the millions of young people who are putting their hopes in the vision he has articulated as part of his campaign, and unleash a wave of civil disobedience the US hasn’t seen in decades. Either 1. or 2. would be a major step in the right direction. That's certainly the expectation of Jacobin/DSA but for those of us still Quixotic to believe in the need for a socialist revolution, there's an entirely different agenda that has to do with drawing clear class lines and gathering together like-minded people for the long haul. Voting certainly makes a difference in peoples' lives. For example, I have indigent relatives who are on Obamacare. It makes a real difference in their lives. But facing monumental threats to the continuing existence of the human race and life on earth and general, a different kind of tool is needed than the one wielded by the Sandernistas. It might seem total like self-delusion but the crisis of revolutionary leadership has to be resolved or else we will end up like the brontosaurus. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Could Sanders win? | Red Flag
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * So, what "structural change" could Sanders enact in the WH without a majority from a sympathetic party in the Congress (and enough political moxie to handle the Supreme Court). Right now, he can't even get fair coverage from the gasbags on the idiot box. The bottom line is you'd better be retooling all those old rationalizations because a bit down the line, you're going to be arguing that we'll get serious political change by voting for Biden or Bloomberg. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Could Sanders win? | Red Flag
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I also agree that it is good analysis about the limits Sanders faces. I
think all of the points he argues -- being thwarted by the DNC, being
expected to compromise with Congress and the Courts, and being expected to
water down all his proposals even if he doesn't want to compromise -- are
actual issues and there is no guarantee that Sanders will overcome any one
of them let alone all of them.
But the problem to me is I don't see anyone actually putting forward any
real-world organizing strategies. They also seem to discount the relevance
of the Sanders presidency for the sake of organizing moving forward. Others
have noted that U.S. history is replete with "left-wing" candidates vying
for the presidency and getting put in their place, like McGovern and Jesse
Jackson. But the part that I think they are missing are that those
candidacies happened at a time in which certain voter demographics were in
a better position and had much more to lose and less to gain given that the
effects of neoliberalism/austerity had not yet been implemented as
thoroughly as now. And more importantly, the people who make up Sanders'
army -- people who are under the age of 35 -- were not alive for those
events. Sanders is the first candidate running for President in my lifetime
(I'm 30) that has actually suggested socialist and anti-imperialist
politics, even if in watered down form. That was not true of Obama. And
even had it been, the reality was that Obama won his first term before the
financial crisis. The defining political events that are shaping the
consciousness of Millenials are the Iraq War, the financial crisis, and
ultimately the election of Trump. For an even younger bunch it is the
increasingly noticeable effects of climate change.
Seeing Sanders either being denied the nomination in a post-Trump era, or
being forced to compromise the aspects of his presidency that speak to
those issues (i.e. economic inequality, ending the wars, curbing right-wing
extremism and climate change) will probably do a lot more to discredit the
existing political machinery than anything else. In short, if he wins and
manages to put forward some meaningful changes ("socialism" not being one
of them), then great. But if he loses or wins but has his hands tied, I
think that will have a dramatic effect on the voter base and their ideas of
what kind of politics is needed. Already there are socialist clubs, DSA,
local protest movements (BLM, etc.). If these groups and community
associations become the basis for a sort of mass civil disobedience
movement, I imagine that being shown, explicitly, how far the existing
elite will go to prevent them from having any sort of democratic
representation via Sanders-style candidates will trigger the kinds of mass
popular mobilization that I think others would rather see.
Amith R. Gupta
On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 1:59 PM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
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>
> Very sharp analysis by an Australian Marxist who puts the Sandernista
> crap in Greenleft to shame.
>
> https://redflag.org.au/node/7048
> _
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Re: [Marxism] Could Sanders win? | Red Flag
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Of course even with Sanders taking office as president the "few positive steps", i.e. single-payer healthcare, he talks about would not necessarily be implemented. On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:41 PM Michael Meeropol via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > I read the article --- I agree it is a very good analysis --- > > The question is --- would the "few positive steps" of a Sanders presidency > be a STRUCTURAL REFORM of US capitalism or not? > I think it would be --- and therefore worth wholeheartedly supporting > > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Could Sanders win? | Red Flag
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I read the article --- I agree it is a very good analysis --- The question is --- would the "few positive steps" of a Sanders presidency be a STRUCTURAL REFORM of US capitalism or not? I think it would be --- and therefore worth wholeheartedly supporting _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Could Sanders win? | Red Flag
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Very sharp analysis by an Australian Marxist who puts the Sandernista crap in Greenleft to shame. https://redflag.org.au/node/7048 _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
