Re: [Marxism] Israel is being defeated in Gaza as it was in Lebanon
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Well, Lüko, this is not entirely accurate. There are some Irish and Puerto Rican's who might disagree. Secondly, it's a ridiculous statement anyway: that in the end the people win. Wowso? We're supposed to sit back and wait? So far the Palestinians have been fighting for almost 80 years (if we use the 1936 Uprising against the British as a starting date for Palestinian nationalism). It doesn't look like the Zionist state is going anywhere soon. I reject the idea that because it is perceived as inevitable that the Crusader state will be overturned that someone this makes everything ok...which is what you are implying. In fact nothing is inevitable. That most, but not all such states have been is not a guide for future results, at all. David Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Israel is being defeated in Gaza as it was in Lebanon,
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == -Original Message- From: Andrew Pollack via Marxism Finally there's the question of Resistance supporters such as Hezbollah, Syria and Iran, whose support is limited to training and material aid, and certainly has nothing to do with a strategy to mobilize the Arab and Iranian masses. And of course at the moment all three are involved in genocidal attacks on the Syrian component of those masses. The idea of these three along with the Palestinians as the Resistance or the Rejectionists is completely laughable. It is true that Iran has in the past provided weaponry to Hamas, and that Hezbollah's past conflicts with Israel, particularly in 2006, were at least in part motivated by opening another front to help Palestine. The Syrian regime has nothing to do with this dynamic; it has spent decades slaughtering the Palestinian resistance, assassinating its leaders, trying to destroy and take over its organisations, and while allowing some to have headquarters in Syria, making damned sure, with an iron fist, that none of them ever got anywhere near the occupied Golan border to do any resistance there. Israel fully understands and appreciates this and has said so clearly. As for support to the Palestinians in Gaza, states alleged to be part of an imaginary pro-imperialist or perhaps non-rejectionist (whatever that means) camp, such as Qatar, have certainly provided far more concrete aid than the Syrian regime. As for Iranian support, it was cut off in 2012 when Hamas made the principled decision to support the Syrian uprising, citing the fact that the Syrian people were undergoing a struggle similar to their own. Iran put its sectarian/geopolitical alliance with the Syrian counterrevolution ahead of any support to Palestinian resistance. This also strained Hamas-Hezbollah relations, being on opposite sides in Syria, but Hamas made sure to try to maintain a working relationship with Hezbollah inside Lebanon, in the interests of the safety of the Palestinian refugees, who largely live in similar areas to Hezbollah's Shia base. But as Andy said, even Hezbollah is irrelevant to the situation now; with both Iranian troops and Hezbollah fully engaged in the main counterrevolutionary war in the region in defense of tyranny, the time for Israel to launch another savaging of Gaza was perfect. World attention focused on ISIS' sudden surge in Iraq also made the time perfect. As people joke now, Hezbollah will come to the aid of the Palestinian resistance via Homs, Aleppo, Damascus and perhaps even Iraq, where Hezbollah was rumoured to be sending some forces to fight ISIS (and the Sunni rebellion) on behalf of its Iranian master. That's a pretty long road to Palestine. Let's be perfectly clear - all the talk of resistance in the region is a giant pot of shit. The one and only resistance is Hamas and the Palestinians it leads and its allies. The other alleged members of this ex-group were fairweather friends at best. And whatever its faults, of which there are plenty, Hamas' decision to back the Syrian uprising represents something that would have been good to see from the Cubans, Venezuelans etc - seeking allies among the masses rather than from among the class enemy. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Israel is being defeated in Gaza as it was in Lebanon,
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I don't like articles like this. It give a false sense of 'victory' based on a totally faulty, wishful-thinking analysis. The author writes Israel has so far admitted to 25 dead soldiers in just four days of ground operations. That’s a higher daily casualty rate than it suffered in Lebanon. Had Netanyahu known that would be the price, he would not likely have launched this foolish and criminal slaughter in Gaza. This betrays a lack of understanding of Zionist gov't politics and the reasons and...price...these gov'ts will pay to achieve what ever goal they think is the target. The target is, in fact, to punish the people of Gaza for tolerating Hamas. It has nothing to do with wiping out Hamas, though that is for public, mostly western, consumption. This is prat of the continual program to suppress and Bantustand the whole of the Palestinian nation. In fact 25 dead soldiers is irrelevant to local Israeli politics except to the degree that they are paraded as martyrs. Yes, Israel uses the 'martyr' tactic as well. To measure this as a success or failure based on the criteria laid out in this article does one any good...least of the people of Gaza under Israeli assault. David Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Israel is being defeated in Gaza as it was in Lebanon,
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Totally agree with David. On Facebook I've been sharing reports on number of IOF soldiers killed; mention of supposedly improved Resistance training and weaponry; and Resistance operations. It APPEARS that Hamas et al. are not melting away to fight another day as they did in past wars. But it also appears that they are as of yet either unable or unwilling to exact significant casualties on the IOF. This gets to broader strategic questions. How large are the Resistance forces? They certainly are not militias based in workplaces or neighborhoods, but rather a combined conventional/guerrilla force run by a bourgeois national liberation party in a colonial country. What does that say about the involvement of Palestinians in the battles? Then there's the question of the Resistance missiles, rockets and mortars: how they're used and to what political end. Finally there's the question of Resistance supporters such as Hezbollah, Syria and Iran, whose support is limited to training and material aid, and certainly has nothing to do with a strategy to mobilize the Arab and Iranian masses. And of course at the moment all three are involved in genocidal attacks on the Syrian component of those masses. On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 11:05 AM, DW via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I don't like articles like this. It give a false sense of 'victory' based on a totally faulty, wishful-thinking analysis. The author writes Israel has so far admitted to 25 dead soldiers in just four days of ground operations. That’s a higher daily casualty rate than it suffered in Lebanon. Had Netanyahu known that would be the price, he would not likely have launched this foolish and criminal slaughter in Gaza. This betrays a lack of understanding of Zionist gov't politics and the reasons and...price...these gov'ts will pay to achieve what ever goal they think is the target. The target is, in fact, to punish the people of Gaza for tolerating Hamas. It has nothing to do with wiping out Hamas, though that is for public, mostly western, consumption. This is prat of the continual program to suppress and Bantustand the whole of the Palestinian nation. In fact 25 dead soldiers is irrelevant to local Israeli politics except to the degree that they are paraded as martyrs. Yes, Israel uses the 'martyr' tactic as well. To measure this as a success or failure based on the criteria laid out in this article does one any good...least of the people of Gaza under Israeli assault. David Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Israel is being defeated in Gaza as it was in Lebanon,
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Would you also say that the Vietnamese claim of victory in 1975 after suffering 4 million dead, widespread birth defects from Agent Orange, unexploded bombs killing people to this day, and widespread destruction leaving their nation an economic basket case unable to serve as a positive model for other former colonial nations were also guilty of wishful-thinking? Was their victory merely Pyrrhic as Chomsky has suggested? The fight against Israel is, unfortunately a long process - made longer by the derailment of The Arab Spring - because of their military superiority over the combined Arab world. The Palestinians don't have a military weapon to force the apartheid regime to the negotiating table. Neither do they have the social weapon of a powerful and strategically-placed working class that can bring the regime to its knees, as in apartheid South Africa. It's an achingly slow political process involving what the Israelis correctly call de-legitimization - increasing worldwide revulsion with their policies and thus their diplomatic isolation. Because of the crucial nature of US military, economic, and diplomatic support, we here in the US carry the extra heavy burden of making the case against Israel in the face of total mainstream sycophancy and the $$$ of The Lobby. After what the bastards did in Lebanon in 2006, dropping over one million cluster bombs as they were about to start a ceasefire, the slaughter of 1300 Gazans in late 2008/early 2009, and now today, it's natural to ask - how much more of this shit is necessary before masses of Americans wake up and demand a change in policy. I've been fighting battles against Zionist crimes for over four decades and it's frustrating as hell, but viewed with the long-term perspective, even small steps forward - victories - bring us closer to the final goal. On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 11:05 AM, DW via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: I don't like articles like this. It give a false sense of 'victory' based on a totally faulty, wishful-thinking analysis. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Israel is being defeated in Gaza as it was in Lebanon
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == As I understand it, the Israeli military has a gag order on reporting any attacks on military installations in Israel. Thus one would not know whether or not Hamas has attacked them. On 7/22/2014 12:23 PM, DW via Marxism wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Dennis writes: Would you also say that the Vietnamese claim of victory in 1975 after suffering 4 million dead, widespread birth defects from Agent Orange, unexploded bombs killing people to this day, and widespread destruction leaving their nation an economic basket case unable to serve as a positive model for other former colonial nations were also guilty of wishful-thinking? Was their victory merely Pyrrhic as Chomsky has suggested? Terrible analogy, Dennis. The Vietnamese *won*. The Palestinians? Not so much. I think the correct analogy here would be the Ted Offensive, which was a lost by the NLF but proceeded the ultimate victory about 8 years later. And we can discuss the Tet Offensive in this light perhaps later since one can make the argument that though the offensive was totally smashed, the costs to the U.S. and their S. Vietnamese puppets was something they *may* of never recovered from, but in Vietnam and domestically, in the U.S. I don't see this as the same or as so analogous to the Ted Offensive. At least not yet. Comparisons with Lebanon are apt though. But here you had an abject *military* defeat for the IDF. They achieved none of their goals though, as expressed in Israel, the Katyusha rockets *did* stop being lobbed into Israel. Why the Hezbollah not once aimed those rockets at Israeli military fortifications goes the stupid politics of these resistance organizations which we can also discuss. [IDF forces are concentrated and bunched up formation in known assembly points right outside Gaza, *without Iron Dome protection*!!!]. And Dennis, you are correct, the situation of Palestinians is completely fucked in terms of choices in strategy and tactics given the military and geographic reality of both Gaza and the West Bank. No doubt about it. But to 'claim' victory might be good for the Gaza street (which makes sense *there*), while Israel STILL occupies parts of the Strip and continued *unabated* is simply not a victory. When Israel withdraws, after the destruction of whole sections of the Stip and the murder of perhaps thousands, then 'victory' can be discussed. Until then it *disorients* those fighting in solidarity with Gaza specifically and for Palestine in general. I will not circulate such poorly proclamatory crap as that article in question. David (also fighting for over 40 years against Zionism). Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/mikesola%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Israel is being defeated in Gaza as it was in Lebanon
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Certainly from Israeli sources, but Hamas would not observe such a gag order. Couldn't Hamas launch such an attack and get someone from Al Jazeera to report that? On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 12:29 PM, Mike Sola via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == As I understand it, the Israeli military has a gag order on reporting any attacks on military installations in Israel. Thus one would not know whether or not Hamas has attacked them. On 7/22/2014 12:23 PM, DW via Marxism wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Dennis writes: Would you also say that the Vietnamese claim of victory in 1975 after suffering 4 million dead, widespread birth defects from Agent Orange, unexploded bombs killing people to this day, and widespread destruction leaving their nation an economic basket case unable to serve as a positive model for other former colonial nations were also guilty of wishful-thinking? Was their victory merely Pyrrhic as Chomsky has suggested? Terrible analogy, Dennis. The Vietnamese *won*. The Palestinians? Not so much. I think the correct analogy here would be the Ted Offensive, which was a lost by the NLF but proceeded the ultimate victory about 8 years later. And we can discuss the Tet Offensive in this light perhaps later since one can make the argument that though the offensive was totally smashed, the costs to the U.S. and their S. Vietnamese puppets was something they *may* of never recovered from, but in Vietnam and domestically, in the U.S. I don't see this as the same or as so analogous to the Ted Offensive. At least not yet. Comparisons with Lebanon are apt though. But here you had an abject *military* defeat for the IDF. They achieved none of their goals though, as expressed in Israel, the Katyusha rockets *did* stop being lobbed into Israel. Why the Hezbollah not once aimed those rockets at Israeli military fortifications goes the stupid politics of these resistance organizations which we can also discuss. [IDF forces are concentrated and bunched up formation in known assembly points right outside Gaza, *without Iron Dome protection*!!!]. And Dennis, you are correct, the situation of Palestinians is completely fucked in terms of choices in strategy and tactics given the military and geographic reality of both Gaza and the West Bank. No doubt about it. But to 'claim' victory might be good for the Gaza street (which makes sense *there*), while Israel STILL occupies parts of the Strip and continued *unabated* is simply not a victory. When Israel withdraws, after the destruction of whole sections of the Stip and the murder of perhaps thousands, then 'victory' can be discussed. Until then it *disorients* those fighting in solidarity with Gaza specifically and for Palestine in general. I will not circulate such poorly proclamatory crap as that article in question. David (also fighting for over 40 years against Zionism). Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/mikesola% 40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/sranz18% 40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Israel is being defeated in Gaza as it was in Lebanon
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == on Dienstag, 22. Juli 2014 at 18:23, DW via Marxism wrote: The Vietnamese *won*. The Palestinians? Not so much. I think the correct analogy here would be the Ted Offensive, which was a lost by the NLF but proceeded the ultimate victory about 8 years later. Let me quote from a recent short note by Fidel Castro An unheard of provocation on the US-war drive against Russia and the Israeli terror in Gaza: At the same time, coinciding with the Malaysian aircraft crime, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, head of the nuclear state, ordered his army to invade the Gaza Strip, where, over the last several days, hundreds of Palestinians have died, many of them children. The President of the United States supported the action, describing the repugnant act as legitimate defense. Obama does not support David against Goliath, but rather Goliath against David. As is known, young men and women from the Israeli people, well prepared for productive work, are being exposed to a death without honor, without glory. I am not aware of the Palestinian?s military strategy, but I know that a combatant prepared to die can defend even the ruins of a building, as long as he has his rifle, as the heroic defenders of Stalingrad demonstrated. The Israel government wants the Arabs in the Gaza strip to suffer the fate of the uprising in the Jewish Ghetto in German-occupied Warsaw, but it might well be that they rather encounter what the German army suffered at Stalingrad. Cheers, Lüko Willms Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
