Re: [Marxism] [pen-l] Re: Brief Reflection on Trump?s Impeachment By Roberto Savio
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * "Mainstream" American politics is always about what defines that "mainstream." The pundits and professional politicians tend to treat this as a contest over the same set of voters. It isn't. To take a particularly dramatic example of this, the difference between the Democratic landslide of 1964 and what the media dishonestly called an "electoral landslide" for the Republicans in 1980 came down to who voted. Studies that broke down the statistics indicated that the demographics broke the same way in both elections, but that those groups favorable to the Democrats didn't vote in 1980 in the numbers they had in 1964, while groups inclined to the Republicans turned out in much larger proportions. Some of the sharper (and more progressive Democrats) understand that the road to victory leads through mobilizing those voters who are understandably disengaged from this inbred quasi-masonic 18th century game. For us, of course, the question is to have to bring the necessary social and political weight to bear where it counts . . .. in the streets and in the workplaces . . . and in the numbers to make it matter. Just imagine what could have been happening over the last year if we had the political savvy, independent sense, and organization to have brought several hundred thousand demonstrators to Washington during the great tax "reform"--or during those Kavenaugh hearings. Or if we could have brought to the capital a fraction of the legions of citizens disgusted with the administration and the Democratic sluggishness in calling it to account. The major features of Trump's agenda could have been checked--or, if they had been, would have been generating mass, political disaffection and radicalization. And we'd have would have contributed sorely needed examples of how sustained independent mass action can turn politics on its head--the most important practical lessons that could have been passed on to young radicals. Isn't it a pity it didn't happen? Cheers, Mark L. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [pen-l] Re: Brief Reflection on Trump?s Impeachment By Roberto Savio
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I was on record beginning in 2017 as being totally opposed to impeachment --- even up till relatively recently, I urged the House to impeach BARR and the director of HOMELAND SECURITY over the real crimes the trump administration was committing --- I argued that the DEMS should let the Republicans impeach Trump if they got tired of him and our side (the coalition that includes Dems) should focus on exposing and opposing POLICIES of the trump administration --- But events have over-taken my skepticism and foot dragging --- I believe that it is essential that the left be as involved as possible in the fight over impeachment -- and I totally disagree with Ralph's recent post arguing that Dems will not vote to impeach because once they vote the House becomes irrelevant -- This MIGHT be true if the Senate does not hold a "real" trial-- but if the Senate holds a real trial where House managers get to present their case on national TV in the Senate trial this will give the majority of people WHO ARE ALREADY INFAVOR OF IMPEACHMENT and REMOVAL FROM OFFICE even without knowing all the facts REAL INFORMATION to chew on I don't think we can underestimate the value of giving REAL ammunition about Trump's criminality -- self-dealing -- etc. to millions of people in this country who will be arguing with friends, neightbors and family about the 2020 election --- If Ralph is right that an acquittal in the Senate will allow trump to take a "victory" lap IMAGINE the nature of the victory lap if the House fails to impeach --- ("THE DISHONEST DEMOCRATS LED BY CRAZY NANCY couldn't even come up with to VOTE against me even though they had a majority!" --- and trump would be right!! ) --- at least a failure to convict in the SENATE would be supportive of the line that DEMS are pushing that the republicans put party before patriotism and EITHER the purple state Republicans will have a good chance of losing in the general if they vote with Trump OR the few Republican votes will make it difficult for trump and his enablers to attack the impeachment effort as purely partisan ... This will be especially true if Trump's line of defense is the same as Clinton's -- YES, I did it but it's no big deal --- having DENIED he did it forever and a day, it will make his new line of defense hard to -- -well --- defend. OF COURSE what I am writing could be wishful thinking but this is how I've changed my position -- just in the last couple of months --- On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 1:19 AM Bill Barclay wrote: > I am skeptical of this cynical analysis. But time will tell. > > Bill Barclay > > > On Thursday, October 17, 2019, 09:41:12 PM PDT, Ralph Johansen < > mdriscol...@charter.net> wrote: > > > Opinion: Don’t Be Surprised If Trump Is Never Impeached > David Marcus - The Federalist - Thursday, October 17, 2019 > > Yesterday, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi announced that the House of > Representatives would not move forward with a vote on impeachment any time > soon. The statement comes as a month of pressure has built up behind > efforts to unseat the president over a phone call with the Ukrainian > president. While Democrats insist, contrary to precedent, that they do not > need to hold a vote, their unwillingness to hold one may show the > impeachment train is skidding off the tracks. > > In the giddy early days of the “impeachment investigation” over Ukraine, > Democrats saw the polls move in their direction. But those polls have now > stabilized and in some cases crept back against impeachment. Even at the > peak, impeaching and removing the president was only popular among those > who already opposed the president. > > So as the groundswell subsides, could Democrats really reverse course and > abandon an impeachment that just last week seemed imminent? Surprisingly, > yes, they could. > > The central thing to consider here is that impeachment is a political, not > a legal, process. Despite their insistence that there are plenty of reasons > to impeach Trump, Democrats have yet to do so. Why not? It seems clear that > they do not believe they have sufficient political support in the country > for the move. Not only do they risk infuriating Trump’s base, there are > also many independent voters who seem to have little interest in this > process. > > Along with this, consider that when and if the House Democrats ever > actually hold a vote on impeachment, which could leave incumbents in purple > seats vulnerable, the ball will move into the Senate’s court and Pelosi and > the House will have no more control over it. That’s a very big deal, > because from the day they took over the House the Democrats have been able >
Re: [Marxism] [pen-l] Re: Brief Reflection on Trump?s Impeachment By Roberto Savio
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Opinion: Don’t Be Surprised If Trump Is Never Impeached David Marcus - The Federalist - Thursday, October 17, 2019 Yesterday, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi announced that the House of Representatives would not move forward with a vote on impeachment any time soon. The statement comes as a month of pressure has built up behind efforts to unseat the president over a phone call with the Ukrainian president. While Democrats insist, contrary to precedent, that they do not need to hold a vote, their unwillingness to hold one may show the impeachment train is skidding off the tracks. In the giddy early days of the “impeachment investigation” over Ukraine, Democrats saw the polls move in their direction. But those polls have now stabilized and in some cases crept back against impeachment. Even at the peak, impeaching and removing the president was only popular among those who already opposed the president. So as the groundswell subsides, could Democrats really reverse course and abandon an impeachment that just last week seemed imminent? Surprisingly, yes, they could. The central thing to consider here is that impeachment is a political, not a legal, process. Despite their insistence that there are plenty of reasons to impeach Trump, Democrats have yet to do so. Why not? It seems clear that they do not believe they have sufficient political support in the country for the move. Not only do they risk infuriating Trump’s base, there are also many independent voters who seem to have little interest in this process. Along with this, consider that when and if the House Democrats ever actually hold a vote on impeachment, which could leave incumbents in purple seats vulnerable, the ball will move into the Senate’s court and Pelosi and the House will have no more control over it. That’s a very big deal, because from the day they took over the House the Democrats have been able to frustrate Trump with impeachment talk any time they want to step on his initiatives or triumphs. Once a vote is held, that is over. Put simply, the build up to impeachment is much more politically valuable to Democrats than impeachment itself. An actual vote to impeach Trump puts the story out of their hands and into Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell’s. He could choose, like a cat playing with a soon-dead mouse, to drag the inevitable acquittal of Trump out as long as he wants. Meanwhile, the entire Democratic Party, including its eventual nominee for president, will be demanding a Senate conviction that won’t happen. Instead, Senate Republicans and Trump himself would use the Senate trial as an opportunity to prove that this has all been a witch-hunt. They would argue that, after the special counsel investigation, once promised to be Trump’s Waterloo, failed, the floundering Party of Jefferson and Jackson found a second-rate scandal to hang impeachment. Yet it isn’t any kind of crime or misdemeanor, high or otherwise. An eventual Trump victory in a Senate trial, whenever it comes, perhaps leading into his convention for example, will be used by the president to proclaim total exoneration. “Not guilty!” he will insist. “Proof of the witch hunt!” He'd take victory laps that would put Mario Andretti to shame. And what can the House Democrats say when that happens? That they knew it would happen? That it was inevitable with a GOP majority in the Senate? Well, if so, why did they engage in this farce to begin with? No. Today the inevitable is starting to seem far less likely. The pros of formally impeaching the president are a molehill next the mountain of cons. If they finish their process, impeach, and yield to the Senate, they become irrelevant. Their constant yammering about wrongdoing turns into a legal process where facts will be demanded and the president will walk free. Anyone paying attention knows this is what Pelosi has feared from day one, and with good reason. Her far-left caucus has been goading her, as has the president, into an informal impeachment, and she clearly still does not want it. She is wise not to. There is one more issue here: the media. Won’t the leftist press be outraged if once again the House Democrats demur on impeachment? No, they won’t. As always, they will call the move brave and wise, and laud Pelosi for keeping the House the narrator of the White House story with forever investigations instead of handing that story to the Senate. Nothing ventured, something gained, the stories will say. The bottom line is this. Once the gavel falls on an actual impeachment, the House, the only chamber the Democrats hold, becomes
Re: [Marxism] [pen-l] Re: Brief Reflection on Trump?s Impeachment By Roberto Savio
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * It is soon before the fact. It's more like reading tea leaves at this premature point. But just for the sake of argument, I recall that Trump was down and out in polls assessing the popular vote last time around, but they had it wrong. 'Class dynamics' did not prevail over media and electoral savvy, and he has part of the ruling class, at least and possibly a preponderance, going along with him, especially if he shows promise of leading the Republicans into majorities in Congress. Without some countering crisis, always. With that in mind and no alternative strong candidate in the wings for them, with their ability to twist rules and procedure, McConnell, Graham and House Republican counterparts may well be effective in shutting off and damping criticism as partisan and distorted. The Democratic-led House placing disproportionate emphasis on Ukraine and China, or maybe even finances and emoluments seems like a loser for a 2/3 majority to impeach, and so what else? No prospects for 29th amendment. Proof of incompetence to voter and Senate-majority satisfaction? Pence as alternative? Rock and a hard place. And given his demonstrated capacity to manipulate and virtually command a generally hostile msm, the blowback and his declaration of victory and cleanliness with an unsuccessful attempt to impeach him has to be factored. Moreover, as to his 'demented' condition, that may be but with all his practice on his tv show he plays on that quality of sarcastic, outraged, zany, off-the-prompter unpredictability quite effectively. Watch that speech in Minneapolis https://tinyurl.com/yxvc4ncj; it's the first time I have watched all the way through a Trump rally. There's a woman in about the third row on his left, looks like just out of a tanning parlor. She also looks as though she might be on something mind-altering. But she epitomizes to me a Trump supporter: going ape at his every exaggerated, distorted, deflecting or untruthful phrase, without a critical or reflective cell in her brain. I fear, when the frenzy rises near election time, in a severely divided, disaffected polity, with an unspoken background elements of class, xenophobia, resentment at elitism and lost status driving it, that this is an amplifying trend. We know the history of authoritarian rule and the irrational and the present course and we should not ignore it. And the uncertain disarray among the discredited Democrats - they're not like the Republicans last time, set to field a runaway candidate, not one with appeal to enough of their base, at any rate, out of a pack where the leaders, equally divided in preference, are 71, 78 and 79 (historically, according to Nate Silver, 55 is the median age for presidents) with heart problems suddenly on the minds of Democratic votersand never mind Trump at 73 with his domination of candidacy and his conservative, older, more committed constituency. I don't have to present as a Cassandra to conclude that we're in dire, dangerous straits, regardless of the outcome of all of this, given the larger picture and all that is coming at us - and the absence of visible, viable alternatives. So what of that? https://www.other-news.info/2019/10/brief-reflection-on-trumps-impeachment/ On 10/14/2019 8:30 PM, Michael Meeropol wrote: Some people are worried that the promise of a civil war may become a reality --- the democratic majority (especially if the election is close in some key states) will have to rely on the "discipline" of the police forces and the military -- especially the hierarchy --- Granted the military hierarchy will stick with the ruling class -- but there could be SERIOUS civil disorders by the "militias" and who knows where the local police forces will be -- (throw in ICE agents who are BIG supporters of Trump as well as the military folks who have been brainwashed) --- I do believe that unless there is very successful voter suppression, that the Dems will pull it out -- BUT -- it will depend on the Obama coalition coming out to vote --- :I do not agree with this article. I don’t think it’s a good analysis. Firstof all, the author completely fails to understand what’s really at work inthese proceedings, which is another way of saying he ignores the classdynamics. In my opinion, the mainstream of the capitalist class has finallydecided that it cannot allow a demented (seriously) person to continue hisdrive for one man rule unchecked. In his Ukraine actions, Trump showed thathe was going to do whatever it took to continue down that path for anotherfour years. His Syria blunder “worse than a crime - a mistake”