Re: [Marxism] [pen-l] Some may have to die to save the economy?

2020-04-20 Thread Dayne Goodwin via Marxism
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On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 5:17 PM Michael Meeropol via Marxism
 wrote:
 . . .
> Thus -- the only way the capitalists remain on top is with fascist type 
> governments.
> Q.E.D.
> (so what do we do about it?)


This is good (Louis put it on list April 15):

A Party of Our Own
Adam Turl and Saman Sepehri
Red Wedge, April 14, 2020
http://www.redwedgemagazine.com/online-issue/party-4-ur-right-2-fight

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Re: [Marxism] [pen-l] Some may have to die to save the economy?

2020-04-19 Thread Michael Meeropol via Marxism
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Thoughts on what Ralph wrote ---

Back in 1974, Robert Heilbroner wrote a VERY PRESCIENT book called An
Inquiry Into the Human Prospect.   The first part was about environmental
problems -- which (even at that early date) mentioned global warming as a
long term problem.   The second was whether we in the "west" would succumb
to totalitarian governments to force through the changes necessary to ride
out this problem [here he was dead wrong as by the end of the 1970s led by
Thatcher in Britain and then after 1981, Reagan in the US, the "west" opted
for neo-liberalism (on this see Yergin and Stanislaus THE COMMANDING
HEIGHTS (where they never once mention neo-liberalism!) --- but only as to
timing.  It took longer (till very recently) for environmental problems
plus the ultimate failure of neo-liberalism to move many countries towards
authoritarianism.  The third problem focused on my Heilbroner was the idea
that (perhaps) human nature CRAVED a boss-figure to tell us what to do ---
that we humans have an instinct to succumb to totalitarianism.  (This in
direct contrast to Noam Chomsky's optimistic speculation that we humans
have an "instinct for liberty.")

Ralph's description of the failure of the neo-liberal Humpty Dumpty to be
put back together again when the virus is finally tamed (I really do
believe there will be a vaccine --- unlike AIDS which affected small
percentages of the population in the developed world therefore not creating
this great search for the treatments that would earn big pharma big bucks,
COVID-19 given the structure of compensation in Big Pharma will earn some
companies mega-billions --- ) may be right --- AFter all, what caused the
2008-9 financial meltdown has NOT been remedied --- In Europe's "south"
there really never was much of a recovery --- in the US it was stronger but
not enough to satisfy large swaths of the population leading to support for
Bernie AND Trump --- So rebuilding from the terrible economic destruction
wrought by the pandemic will be extremely hard if not impossible.

Thus -- the only way the capitalists remain on top is with fascist type
governments.

Q.E.D.

(so what do we do about it?)

On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 5:28 PM Ralph Johansen 
wrote:

> My response to a friend who wrote this to his family copy to me:
>
> On 4/18/2020 11:02 AM, - wrote:
>
> Some may have to die to save the economy?
> This headline in my paper today summarizes my opinion about the "early"
> opening.  It is easy to want a return to normality. Our Wall Street
> government will lie and downplay the dangers. Our family shouldn't be
> seduced.
> Pops
>
> Well I don't know. I've lived in the relatively good times, for anyone in
> the American middle class especially. And now I feel as if I as one of an
> age bracket most susceptible could go out, willingly, gloriously, to save
> Trump by saving the economy and helping to make America even greater again,
> for another term.
>
> I have thoughts about these things. Something like this:
>
> I can't for the life of me see how the economy recovers. First and
> foremost there's the whole global environment collapsing and we're either
> oblivious or frozen in place, business as usual, and it's coming with its
> penumbra to our neighborhood as sure as we're sitting here. And do we
> maybe think we're just going to wait alongside and watch it happening
> somewhere else?
>
> And what do we really know about this virus or possibly others to follow,
> how long they last and spread in a closely-packed, interdependent if
> seemingly remote slum, favela, barrio and ghetto world, and how they relate
> to what we're doing to the environment and where there might be prevention
> or testing or cure or vaccination or some sort of magic foresight or
> scientific breakthrough?
>
> And then because look, we all stop, supposedly just for the time being,
> buying cars and washing machines and electronic gismos and chotchkies and
> we stop going to the barbershop and the theater and the hardware and
> restaurants and air travel and other tourism stuff and everybody either
> loses their job or is cut so far back that nobody can pay the mortgage or
> the rent or the utilities or the credit cards and loans or medical and
> dental bills and the debt and interest pile up and shops, stores,
> warehouses and offices and hospitals close down along with their employees
> and municipal, state and local governments lose their tax revenue and the
> supply chain that's supposed to ship us sustenance collapses and big
> corporations eat more small corporations and strip their assets and fire
> everybody and declare a big dividend and the government prints endless