Re: [Marxism] Anarchist speaks from Afrin
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 12/31/18 3:17 PM, Chris Slee wrote: However sectarian forces have become increasingly dominant within the rebel movement. That's true but so what? Your pal Tony Iltis characterized the FSA as led by thieves and warlords so don't tell me you guys were ever for anybody against Assad who didn't match up to your Bookchinist standards. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Anarchist speaks from Afrin
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I don't "view the entire opposition to Assad as sectarian". However sectarian forces have become increasingly dominant within the rebel movement. A key turning point was in 2014, when the non-sectarian Syrian Revolutionaries Front was attacked and suppressed by Jabhat al-Nusra. The part of Idlib province that Nusra captured included Druze villages. The Druze were forced to convert to Sunni Islam. See: http://www.aymennjawad.org/15969/jabhat-al-nusra-and-the-druze-of-idlib-province Other rebel groups in Idlib province were either unwilling or unable to prevent Nusra's attack on the SRF and its forced conversion of the Druze. Some of the SRF members who survived Nusra's attack fled to Afrin and later became part of the Syrian Democratic Forces. Chris Slee From: Marxism on behalf of Louis Proyect via Marxism Sent: Tuesday, 1 January 2019 12:04:14 AM To: Chris Slee Subject: Re: [Marxism] Anarchist speaks from Afrin POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 12/31/18 7:50 AM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote: > Secondly, he has support (if only as a lesser evil) from a significant > section of the population, particularly the religious minorities who fear > persecution by sectarian elements of the rebel movement. Since you (or Tony Iltis, is there any difference?) view the entire opposition to Assad as sectarian, this is a distinction without a difference. Or is it a difference without a distinction? _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/chris_w_slee%40hotmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Anarchist speaks from Afrin
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * In the first place, it's clear from what *wasn't* said in the article that there was a "settlement" of sorts all along with Assad. The settlement was an agreement that we'll leave you alone if you leave us alone. What necessarily must have gone along with that agreement was that "we" - the PYD/YPG - will make sure that no sort of anti-Assad activity is carried out in the territory we control. Otherwise, there is no way that Assad would have accepted this agreement. That means that the PYD/YPG would have had to have been acting as the enforcers for Assad to some degree or another. This, of course, would have suited their backers - US imperialism - to a T also. What will happen if and when Assad's forces move into NE Syria? They are not going to just move in and leave the situation as is. Over time they will have to gradually tighten their grip on the area. There must be anti-Assad elements in the area, ones that maybe were forced to be more or less silent up until now, but ones that exist anyway. Assad's forces will have to search them out. In any case, given how his forces operate, given the corruption, the brutality, over time an ant-Assad sentiment will start to develop, and Assad's forces know it. There are probably some in the region who have relatives in Assad's prisons, or relatives who have been killed by Assad elsewhere. They will immediately be suspect. The supporters of the PYD can argue that given the situation, inviting Assad's forces in is the least bad alternative. For the PYD that might be true, although I'm not sure for many others in the region if it is. This argument just shows the disastrously mistaken (and that's putting it mildly) position they took right from the start. And in any case, it is even questionable even from their strictly limited, nationalist point of view. After all, the Assad regime brutally persecuted the Kurds in the past. Will it not return to that policy once the time is right? "Yes, but the revolution failed and wold have failed with or without the PYD, so what choice did they have?" it could be argued. We didn't know that in 2011 or 2012. There never has been a revolution in all of history what was guaranteed victory at the outset, nor will there ever be. Nor was there ever a revolution in which the majority embarked with a clearly thought out plan and clear goals. But the PYD did have a more or less clear goals and a more or less clear plan - to use the situation to create a situation of semi-autonomy in their region and let the rest of the Syrian people go to hell. That is not something that any socialist should support. John Reimann On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 4:50 AM Chris Slee wrote: > A "settlement" with Assad seems likely to be necessary, for three > reasons. > > Firstly, there seems no realistic prospect of militarily defeating him, so > long as he retains the support of Russia and Iran. > > Secondly, he has support (if only as a lesser evil) from a significant > section of the population, particularly the religious minorities who fear > persecution by sectarian elements of the rebel movement. A peace agreement > would ease their fears and might make them more open to a political > critique of the Assad regime. > > Thirdly, a peace agreement would make it more difficult for Turkey to > continue its occupation of parts of northern Syria, and invade new areas. > > This does not mean that a peace agreement would be a panacea. Colombia is > a case where a peace agreement has so far failed to end the violence. > > Still, it seems better than the alternative of continued war with little > prospect of success. > > Things could change if mass protests in Iran and Russia forced the > withdrawal of Iranian and Russian military forces from Syria. In Iran this > may be possible, but in Russia it seems very unlikely. > > Chris Slee > > > From: Marxism on behalf of John > Reimann via Marxism > Sent: Sunday, 30 December 2018 5:43:22 PM > To: Chris Slee > Subject: [Marxism] Anarchist speaks from Afrin > > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > Here is a report from a US or European anarchist in Afrin. Notice that his > entire narrative i
Re: [Marxism] Anarchist speaks from Afrin
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 12/31/18 7:50 AM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote: Secondly, he has support (if only as a lesser evil) from a significant section of the population, particularly the religious minorities who fear persecution by sectarian elements of the rebel movement. Since you (or Tony Iltis, is there any difference?) view the entire opposition to Assad as sectarian, this is a distinction without a difference. Or is it a difference without a distinction? _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Anarchist speaks from Afrin
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * A "settlement" with Assad seems likely to be necessary, for three reasons. Firstly, there seems no realistic prospect of militarily defeating him, so long as he retains the support of Russia and Iran. Secondly, he has support (if only as a lesser evil) from a significant section of the population, particularly the religious minorities who fear persecution by sectarian elements of the rebel movement. A peace agreement would ease their fears and might make them more open to a political critique of the Assad regime. Thirdly, a peace agreement would make it more difficult for Turkey to continue its occupation of parts of northern Syria, and invade new areas. This does not mean that a peace agreement would be a panacea. Colombia is a case where a peace agreement has so far failed to end the violence. Still, it seems better than the alternative of continued war with little prospect of success. Things could change if mass protests in Iran and Russia forced the withdrawal of Iranian and Russian military forces from Syria. In Iran this may be possible, but in Russia it seems very unlikely. Chris Slee From: Marxism on behalf of John Reimann via Marxism Sent: Sunday, 30 December 2018 5:43:22 PM To: Chris Slee Subject: [Marxism] Anarchist speaks from Afrin POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Here is a report from a US or European anarchist in Afrin. Notice that his entire narrative is about fighting ISIS and Turkey. Not a hint that the PUD/YPG opposes Assad. And it's clear that he got this from the PYD/YPG. Here's the best he can say: " *Overthrowing Assad by military means is a dead project—or, at least, the things that would have to happen to make it plausible again in the near future are even more horrifying than the regime is. I hope that somehow, someday, there can be some kind of settlement between the regime and YPG/YPJ, and the regime and the rebels in Idlib, and everyone else who has been suffering here."* A "settlement" with Assad? Really? https://crimethinc.com/2018/12/28/the-threat-to-rojava-an-anarchist-in-syria-speaks-on-the-real-meaning-of-trumps-withdrawal?fbclid=IwAR2i6ytRiLIpn9MiDPPvOl8DD0FYlf3C1iyDKUhgWmBFn0Pa0WDXRDkzlD4 John Reimann -- *“In politics, abstract terms conceal treachery.” *from "The Black Jacobins" by C. L. R. James Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/chris_w_slee%40hotmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Anarchist speaks from Afrin
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Kind of indicates that those types take extreme stances only when convenient, and then suddenly find a way to "settle" for everything that isn't convenient. I know it's not worth grouping all anarchists together but it would explain why they are ready to go larping against fringe hate groups while adopting talking points from J-Street when it comes to Israel inside the Western countries. Same thing here: the anarchists from afar condemn the Assad regime, but the handful that actually go to Syria are ready to make concessions to him while fighting everyone else. Wherever they are, they operate within the lines rather than re-drawing them. Amith R. Gupta On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 1:45 AM John Reimann via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > Here is a report from a US or European anarchist in Afrin. Notice that his > entire narrative is about fighting ISIS and Turkey. Not a hint that the > PUD/YPG opposes Assad. And it's clear that he got this from the PYD/YPG. > Here's the best he can say: " > *Overthrowing Assad by military means is a dead project—or, at least, the > things that would have to happen to make it plausible again in the near > future are even more horrifying than the regime is. I hope that somehow, > someday, there can be some kind of settlement between the regime and > YPG/YPJ, and the regime and the rebels in Idlib, and everyone else who has > been suffering here."* > A "settlement" with Assad? Really? > > > https://crimethinc.com/2018/12/28/the-threat-to-rojava-an-anarchist-in-syria-speaks-on-the-real-meaning-of-trumps-withdrawal?fbclid=IwAR2i6ytRiLIpn9MiDPPvOl8DD0FYlf3C1iyDKUhgWmBFn0Pa0WDXRDkzlD4 > > John Reimann > -- > *“In politics, abstract terms conceal treachery.” *from "The Black > Jacobins" by C. L. R. James > Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Anarchist speaks from Afrin
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Here is a report from a US or European anarchist in Afrin. Notice that his entire narrative is about fighting ISIS and Turkey. Not a hint that the PUD/YPG opposes Assad. And it's clear that he got this from the PYD/YPG. Here's the best he can say: " *Overthrowing Assad by military means is a dead project—or, at least, the things that would have to happen to make it plausible again in the near future are even more horrifying than the regime is. I hope that somehow, someday, there can be some kind of settlement between the regime and YPG/YPJ, and the regime and the rebels in Idlib, and everyone else who has been suffering here."* A "settlement" with Assad? Really? https://crimethinc.com/2018/12/28/the-threat-to-rojava-an-anarchist-in-syria-speaks-on-the-real-meaning-of-trumps-withdrawal?fbclid=IwAR2i6ytRiLIpn9MiDPPvOl8DD0FYlf3C1iyDKUhgWmBFn0Pa0WDXRDkzlD4 John Reimann -- *“In politics, abstract terms conceal treachery.” *from "The Black Jacobins" by C. L. R. James Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
