Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Obama Helped Lay the Groundwork for Trump’s Thuggery | The Nation

[Mark Lause via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Frankly, this entire thread convinces me that monarchist assumptions and
premises remain functional for parts of the Marxist list.


On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Mark Lause  wrote:

> The "Bush" policies were not really those of Bush as an individual nor
> even of his party but a shit-stew cooked up from a bipartisan recipe and
> sold on a bipartisan basis.   So have been the "Obama" policies. The
> difference is that one of them sold the shift-stew with a sprig of parsley
> on the side away from the consumer.  The other had the sprig of parsley on
> the side towards the consumer.
>
>
> ML
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
>>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
>> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
>> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
>> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
>> *
>>
>> Here's another opinion along those lines, from Andrew Stewart on this
>> list:
>>
>> More typical non-Marxist silliness from The Nation. Obama did cause the
>> > rise of Trump.
>>
>>
>> Clay Claiborne, Director
>> Vietnam: American Holocaust 
>> Linux Beach Productions
>> Venice, CA 90291
>> (310) 581-1536
>>
>> Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 
>> 
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Louis Proyect  wrote:
>>
>> > On 8/28/16 12:43 PM, Clay Claiborne wrote:
>> >
>> >> And as sadly typical of many "Left" articles that try to blame Trump on
>> >> Obama or Clinton
>> >>
>> >
>> > What in the world are you talking about? I haven't seen a single one
>> > except this. Nearly the entire left views Trump as a total departure
>> from
>> > American political traditions, understood as either DP liberalism or
>> > centrism (obviously) or RP conservatism in the National Review mold. He
>> is
>> > seen as channeling either Adolf Hitler or Benito Mussolini. I never
>> posted
>> > any of those articles to Marxmail because they were so obvious and so
>> > widely available on Salon, Huffington Post and even the Nation. I posted
>> > the article because it was striking to see it in the Nation.
>> >
>> >
>> _
>> Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
>> Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/opt
>> ions/marxism/markalause%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Obama Helped Lay the Groundwork for Trump’s Thuggery | The Nation

[Mark Lause via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

The "Bush" policies were not really those of Bush as an individual nor even
of his party but a shit-stew cooked up from a bipartisan recipe and sold on
a bipartisan basis.   So have been the "Obama" policies. The difference is
that one of them sold the shift-stew with a sprig of parsley on the side
away from the consumer.  The other had the sprig of parsley on the side
towards the consumer.


ML






On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
> *
>
> Here's another opinion along those lines, from Andrew Stewart on this list:
>
> More typical non-Marxist silliness from The Nation. Obama did cause the
> > rise of Trump.
>
>
> Clay Claiborne, Director
> Vietnam: American Holocaust 
> Linux Beach Productions
> Venice, CA 90291
> (310) 581-1536
>
> Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 
> 
>
> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Louis Proyect  wrote:
>
> > On 8/28/16 12:43 PM, Clay Claiborne wrote:
> >
> >> And as sadly typical of many "Left" articles that try to blame Trump on
> >> Obama or Clinton
> >>
> >
> > What in the world are you talking about? I haven't seen a single one
> > except this. Nearly the entire left views Trump as a total departure from
> > American political traditions, understood as either DP liberalism or
> > centrism (obviously) or RP conservatism in the National Review mold. He
> is
> > seen as channeling either Adolf Hitler or Benito Mussolini. I never
> posted
> > any of those articles to Marxmail because they were so obvious and so
> > widely available on Salon, Huffington Post and even the Nation. I posted
> > the article because it was striking to see it in the Nation.
> >
> >
> _
> Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
> Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/
> options/marxism/markalause%40gmail.com
>
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Obama Helped Lay the Groundwork for Trump’s Thuggery | The Nation

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Here's another opinion along those lines, from Andrew Stewart on this list:

More typical non-Marxist silliness from The Nation. Obama did cause the
> rise of Trump.


Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Louis Proyect  wrote:

> On 8/28/16 12:43 PM, Clay Claiborne wrote:
>
>> And as sadly typical of many "Left" articles that try to blame Trump on
>> Obama or Clinton
>>
>
> What in the world are you talking about? I haven't seen a single one
> except this. Nearly the entire left views Trump as a total departure from
> American political traditions, understood as either DP liberalism or
> centrism (obviously) or RP conservatism in the National Review mold. He is
> seen as channeling either Adolf Hitler or Benito Mussolini. I never posted
> any of those articles to Marxmail because they were so obvious and so
> widely available on Salon, Huffington Post and even the Nation. I posted
> the article because it was striking to see it in the Nation.
>
>
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Obama Helped Lay the Groundwork for Trump’s Thuggery | The Nation

[A.R. G via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

"Did Alex Jones ghost write this article? The lack of history here is
> astounding. Donald Trump did not rise out of the swamp last week. This is
> who he's been for his entire life. Obama has absolutely nothing to do with
> Trump's behavior, unless you want to blame him for Presidenting While
Black."

The fact that Donald Trump has been a racist all his life is distinct from
what possessed a significant chunk of the electorate to see him as a
suitable presidential candidate. Given that Alex Jones has almost
uncritically defended Donald Trump every step of the way -- hosting him on
his show for a bizarre ranting session where Alex Jones did his usual
schtick about pretending to be in contact with "Top Men," and rallying his
supporters to the RNC -- I don't see how one can blame the Alex Jones crowd
for this kind of rhetoric, attributing Trump to Obama.

Nonetheless, while I do hold Obama somewhat responsible for the direction
the country has gone in the last 8 years, the article is an overstatement.

The article itself focuses only on two policy items: refusing to prosecute
the Bush torture lawyers, and the assassination of Osama Bin Laden. The
former is largely a relic of the Bush administration, which does hold a
significant amount of the blame for openly embracing the status of a rogue
state, as the article suggests. Obama's role, then, is the fact that he
played into this rogue state behavior by not investigating and prosecuting.
The second item, extrajudicial assassinations of "terror" suspects, took
off under Obama, but this is itself an extension of Bush era policies. So
basically it sounds like the argument she is making is that Obama did not
do a good enough job reining in the guy before him. Not sure how much of
that is truly Obama's fault as opposed to simply being part of a slow and
creeping expansion of executive authority that predates him.

- Amith
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Obama Helped Lay the Groundwork for Trump’s Thuggery | The Nation

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Oh,  and I forgot - Jill on Hill:
>
> She supported the Wall Street deregulations that lead to the financial
> meltdown and the economic misery that gives rise to demagogues like Donald
> Trump.
>

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Obama Helped Lay the Groundwork for Trump’s Thuggery | The Nation

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Louis Proyect  wrote:

> On 8/28/16 12:43 PM, Clay Claiborne wrote:
>
>> And as sadly typical of many "Left" articles that try to blame Trump on
>> Obama or Clinton
>>
>
> What in the world are you talking about? I haven't seen a single one
> except this.


Jill Stein in Jacobin:

> Donald Trump doesn’t stand alone. He’s part of a right-wing extremist
> movement that is getting traction now all around the world. This isn’t
> happening by accident. This is because of neoliberal policies —
> globalization, financialization, the trade agreements that empower
> unaccountable, abusive multinational corporations and throw working people
> under the bus.

These are the policies of the Clintons and the centrist Democratic Party.


These are the policies of capitalism. To target only the Clintons and the
centrist Democratic Party is to support the fascist Trump line on our
current problems.

I think the important point here is that neo-liberalism also creates the
conditions for a revolutionary movement. The alt-right is winning the
support of young whites at least in part, because the Green Party doesn't
even try to compete with the racists. They don't even acknowledge the
problem!

Trump is getting to be Trump because of the Left's failure to execute. This
shows that the corruption most visible around Syria, a "Left" worldview
corrupted by white supremacy, is probably the main issue holding back the
world revolutionary movement.

More, later...

Clay

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Obama Helped Lay the Groundwork for Trump’s Thuggery | The Nation

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 8/28/16 12:43 PM, Clay Claiborne wrote:

And as sadly typical of many "Left" articles that try to blame Trump on
Obama or Clinton


What in the world are you talking about? I haven't seen a single one 
except this. Nearly the entire left views Trump as a total departure 
from American political traditions, understood as either DP liberalism 
or centrism (obviously) or RP conservatism in the National Review mold. 
He is seen as channeling either Adolf Hitler or Benito Mussolini. I 
never posted any of those articles to Marxmail because they were so 
obvious and so widely available on Salon, Huffington Post and even the 
Nation. I posted the article because it was striking to see it in the 
Nation.


_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Obama Helped Lay the Groundwork for Trump’s Thuggery | The Nation

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

And as sadly typical of many "Left" articles that try to blame Trump on
Obama or Clinton, no mention is made of the white nationalism that is at
the core of Trump's "thuggery" - interesting choice of words to connect to
Obama.

I also liked this comment:

 Did Alex Jones ghost write this article? The lack of history here is
> astounding. Donald Trump did not rise out of the swamp last week. This is
> who he's been for his entire life. Obama has absolutely nothing to do with
> Trump's behavior, unless you want to blame him for Presidenting While Black.



Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Obama Helped Lay the Groundwork for Trump’s Thuggery | The Nation

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

I liked these comments:

>  The whole bashing of Obama as being on Trumps level makes me want to
> puke out here in the Pacific. Yuk.


 This country has indulged in the murder and genocide of innocents since
> its beginning. I suggest you do some reading before you try to make
> President Obama responsible for this country's attitude towards killing and
> the lack of consequence for doing so.


Blaming Clinton [and Obama] for the ills of imperialism is Trump propaganda
now being parroted by many voices on the Left.

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Obama Helped Lay the Groundwork for Trump’s Thuggery | The Nation

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

>
>  Moral complacency in the face of brutality can all too easily
> degenerate into full-blown corruption,
>

This is choice coming from the Nation given their support for Assad &
Putin, 2 who have exampled thuggery rule better than Obama. Which is why
Trump, like the Nation, points to them approvingly.  Also because the
Nations long support for these characters has also indirectly aided the
rise of Daesh and the Syria refugees that Trump is using as its main
issues.

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
> *
>
>
>
> https://www.thenation.com/article/how-obama-helped-lay-the-
> groundwork-for-trumps-thuggery/
> _
> Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
> Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/opt
> ions/marxism/clayclai%40gmail.com
>
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

[Marxism] Fwd: How Obama Helped Lay the Groundwork for Trump’s Thuggery | The Nation

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*



https://www.thenation.com/article/how-obama-helped-lay-the-groundwork-for-trumps-thuggery/
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com