Re: [Marxism] t?s Time for the Left to Build a Force Outside the Democratic Party | Left Voice

2020-02-06 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 2/6/20 1:41 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
I remember coming back from Albany in 2001 after a weekend I spent with 
my wife-to-be who was a graduate student. Across the aisle from me were 
4 guys whose conversation I eavesdropped on. They were all working for 
UPS and all they could talk about between Albany and NYC was whether he 
would run again in 2004. He was their guy.


I neglected to mention that their guy was Ralph Nader.
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com


Re: [Marxism] t?s Time for the Left to Build a Force Outside the Democratic Party | Left Voice

2020-02-06 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 2/6/20 1:09 PM, John Reimann via Marxism wrote


It seems to me that this whole discussion is based on idealism rather than
historical materialism.

Different parties are based on different classes. In other words, a
material force. A new party of any significance in the US will be based on
a movement of the working class. That is what it will arise from. Instead
of considering how such a movement can develop and how it could lead to the
creation of a working class party, what we have is simply a replay of the
call of Socialist Alternative for a "new left party". In other words,
abandoning a class view of politics and instead adopting a view that we
socialists can build a party based on our ideas.


It depends on what you mean by the working class. You were a carpenter 
by trade before you retired. In my entire life on the left, no 
significant motion has been detected by construction workers except 
maybe on May 8, 1970, in New York City when about 200 construction 
workers were mobilized by the New York State AFL-CIO to attack some 
1,000 college and high school students and others who were protesting 
the Vietnam War.


Don't forget that many people on this list have been through the process 
of "colonizing" factories. I did it myself as a spot welder in 1978 and 
all I needed was one morning to realize that SWP leader Frank Lovell was 
bullshitting us when he said that there was a deeper working class 
radicalization going on back then than at any time in the 20th century.


It is about time we stopped with the "proletarian orientation" that 
looks for every little disturbance, like the workers who occupied 
Republic Windows and Doors in 2008. You'd think that the USA was 
Argentina from the feverish coverage in the Leninist press.


Except for the civil rights movement, all of the major movements in the 
USA since the time I was an undergraduate have been spearheaded by 
students or what Jack Barnes dismissed as "petty bourgeois". It was an 
engineer and unicycle rider named Ben Linder who went to Nicaragua in 
solidarity, not construction workers. In fact, the construction brigades 
that went to Nicaragua from NYC to build homes were made up of the 
"petty bourgeoisie".


John writes these things out of a deeply felt need to be authentic. 
Maybe in 20 years or so, construction workers, miners, auto workers, and 
teamsters will be ready to build that proletarian party that all of us 
would love to see. But in the meantime, I will back any 3rd party to the 
left of the DP.


I remember coming back from Albany in 2001 after a weekend I spent with 
my wife-to-be who was a graduate student. Across the aisle from me were 
4 guys whose conversation I eavesdropped on. They were all working for 
UPS and all they could talk about between Albany and NYC was whether he 
would run again in 2004. He was their guy.


History does not move in a straight line. I would drop my backing for 
the Green Party in a split second if I saw something developing that had 
anything close to John Reimann's fantasies. But until it materializes, 
I'll stick with real motion--warts and all.








_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com


Re: [Marxism] t?s Time for the Left to Build a Force Outside the Democratic Party | Left Voice

2020-02-06 Thread John Reimann via Marxism
  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

It seems to me that this whole discussion is based on idealism rather than
historical materialism.

Different parties are based on different classes. In other words, a
material force. A new party of any significance in the US will be based on
a movement of the working class. That is what it will arise from. Instead
of considering how such a movement can develop and how it could lead to the
creation of a working class party, what we have is simply a replay of the
call of Socialist Alternative for a "new left party". In other words,
abandoning a class view of politics and instead adopting a view that we
socialists can build a party based on our ideas.

John Reimann

-- 
*“In politics, abstract terms conceal treachery.” *from "The Black
Jacobins" by C. L. R. James
Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

[Marxism] It?s Time for the Left to Build a Force Outside

2020-02-06 Thread Anthony Boynton via Marxism
  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

I think that this year is a good time to talk about building a third party
to the left of the Democrats, but it is not the time to actively organize
it. For, now supporting Howie Hawkins as a protest vote, or whoever the
Peace and Freedom Party in California runs, is the least evil option.

However, both the Green Party and the Peace and Freedom Party have
undemocratic internal structures and leaderships committed to preventing
them from challenging the Democrats or even to running robust slates of
candidates. In other words, neither is likely to be a vehicle for a
resurgence of the left.

However, I think the possibilities for the formation of a third party of
the left are growing rapidly. The Sandernista movement is its unlikely
incubator, but the millions of Sanders activists and voters, mostly young
people, will have to go through the experience of this election and the
hatred and sabotage against their campaign orchestrated by the Democratic
National Committee.

The DNC's failed attempt to steal Iowa from Sanders is a direct
continuation of Hillary Clinton's unprincipled campaign against Sanders in
2016. Does anyone doubt it will continue to escalate this year?

What will the Sanders do if he is robbed of the nomination?

Will he launch a third party himself? I think this is very unlikely, but
not impossible.

What will the Sandernistas do if Sanders is robbed of the nomination, and
then meekly decides to support Butttigieg, Klobuchar, Biden, Bloomberg or
whomever the DNC anoints (Hillary Clinton wouldn't mind the job)?

Will some of them set off on the path of building a third party?

I think that this is the most likely scenario for the emergence of a third
party of the left in the USA.

Of course, there is the very unlikely possibility that the Democrats will
actually nominate Sanders for president. In that case the emergence of such
a party will be off the table in the near term. The "new left" that is now
growing would move deeper into the Democratic Party. It would likely stay
there for at least the following four years if only electoral factors were
at work.

The biggest unknown however, is not in the electoral arena. Mass movements
of the working class lead to the formation of mass working class parties.
This is sort of an ABC of the history of class struggle. In recent years,
we have seen momentary and partial mass movements, immigrant rights, black
lives matter, occupy, Me Too, and even a noticeable revival of trade union
militancy as demonstrated by the ongoing series of teachers' strikes.

What happens on the streets will ultimately determine the possibilities for
forming a viable new party of the left in the United States.

Anthony
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com