[Marxism] Moderator's note

2020-06-19 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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A reminder. If you include more than 3 recipients in a post to Marxmail, 
it will be held in a moderation queue. We instituted this years ago to 
put a stop to comrades cc'ing to other mailing lists since that led to 
all sorts of confusion with non-subscribers replying, etc.


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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2020-04-11 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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I've just removed Michael Probsting from Marxmail. It is clear by now 
that he is gone off the deep end.


Generally, I have low tolerance for self-styled Bolshevik leaders but 
considered Michael to be a positive contributor on the whole. But this 
insatiable need to promote a bizarre analysis akin to what I just wrote 
about with respect to the American SWP is driven half by politics and 
half by psychology.


Enough.

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2020-03-23 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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My advice is to avoid getting into debates with RKOB over coronavirus 
because clearly the differences are too great. The list can be a 
valuable resource as a source of information. There is no need to try to 
refute RKOB's posts since clearly they are not resonating. If I were 
Michael, I'd probably let it drop since if after posting at least 40 
posts with this line, he's wasting his time. It only reflects a certain 
need to educate backward layers on his part. I know all about this from 
my own experience as an SWP member 50 years ago.


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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2020-03-20 Thread RKOB via Marxism

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Sure, Louis. I was not aware of this. I will take this into account in 
the future.


Am 20.03.2020 um 15:11 schrieb Louis Proyect via Marxism:

 POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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Reminder. We try to limit posts to six a day. I understand that this 
coronavirus stuff is urgent, but I have already seen arguments being 
repeated. I was about to say something myself earlier but realized 
that I would only be repeating myself.


Okay?

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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2020-03-20 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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On 3/20/20 10:11 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:


Reminder. We try to limit posts to six a day.


I should have written six a day per subscriber.

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2020-03-19 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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On 3/19/20 12:16 PM, Walter Daum via Marxism wrote:


Yesterday Ralph Johansen raised two issues: how to address the Sanders 
enthusiasts; and what about the Democratic Party majority who are wary of 
Sanders’ far-reaching reforms? I’ll take up just the first for now.
Agreed, the Bernie activists aren’t bound by the No Vote for Capitalist Parties 
principle. This particular document wasn’t addressed to them directly, although 
it does indicate our approach. It was addressed to a left audience (and 
therefore posted here) in order to explain why our traditional position needs 
changing – a position we’ve shared with many on the left.
The Sanders movement is an important development that no one on the left, 
including my group, found a satisfactory (i.e., revolutionary) way to connect 
with. The DSA by and large dove in uncritically. The ISO in 2015-16 stayed 
aloof, counterposing the Green Party. But that went nowhere, since the Sanders 
activists believed that his campaign offered genuine hopes of transforming 
America politics and achieving concrete reforms that could relieve the economic 
precariousness they were facing. The Greens weren’t a contender. Socialist 
Alternative straddled those two approaches, pretending not to be working in the 
Dem Party but in reality behaving more like DSA. Both SAlt and the ISO called 
for Sanders to run independently, knowing full well (I assume, since he made it 
absolutely clear) that he would support the Democratic nominee, both last time 
and this. That meant reinforcing illusions in bourgeois politics.
What should have been tried, in my opinion, is an approach like Lenin’s 
“critical support.” Not just offering a few criticisms (or even worse, 
“reserving the right to criticize” without doing so), but telling the truth 
about the racist, imperialist, anti-working-class Dem Party and the candidates 
who accommodate to it. We and others could not get much of a hearing if we said 
it’s a capitalist party so don’t vote for its candidates. We might have gotten 
a hearing if we’d said, OK, let’s put Sanders to the test of office. Let’s 
elect him and see whether the Democrats adopt his program and whether he 
mobilizes his movement to come out into the streets to fight for it. He hasn’t 
done that so far, even though there were several key opportunities during 
Trump’s reign when that deserved to be done. Why hasn’t he? Because his 
strategy is purely electoral. His “political revolution” means political in the 
everyday bourgeois sense, i.e.,electoral. But his supporters will more easily 
see the limitations of his strategy if he gets into office. That would be a 
step forward toward creating an independent working-class party.
Now that Sanders is in all likelihood out of the race, the issue for the 
Sanders activists is what to do next. This I think our statement does deal 
with. We’re not advocating critical support for Biden in the Leninist sense. 
Voting for him would be purely defensive, to get rid of Trump. A few years ago 
it might have been comforting to think that Trump’s incompetence tempered his 
malevolence. In the present crisis they reinforce each other. Keeping him in 
power would not only boost the drive to autocracy, as we argue in our 
statement. It could doom us all.


This week I have sent private messages to 2 other Marxmailers about the 
need to skip lines between paragraphs. I am now making it public in 
order to save me the trouble of contacting others who might not be aware 
of the importance of readability.


Walter's post is difficult to read.  If you are reading an article or a 
book, there are lines in between grafs. We should follow the same 
standards here.


In addition, you need to clip extraneous text. There have been too many 
posts recently that failed to do this. We instituted this formatting 
rule back in the early 2000s when many people were still using phone 
lines to go online. By removing extraneous text, the mail downloaded 
quicker.


Even though most people are using high-speed connections now, I still 
want to keep this rule in place because brevity is the soul of wit. 
Thank you very much.

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2020-03-16 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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On 3/16/20 6:05 PM, Alan Ginsberg via Marxism wrote:

March 16, 2020

http://secure-web.cisco.com/1yx-HgfZZafGV1o0Eot0VhH7QiSjYoEpLzTnGf_nZIARSGx0ZJnnfW08WhFQT_sAnGaOs2b-4u2KaZ82iN7FZFJJC30kxkwiL-ZZ72XNOa7eiKPrmGZUCVNuHFOoHyAGHeJi8Aj4RsrkMCpBGh5HidlQVyWXGdS8id39Qw037KM1FZdoq3tab2SEpYJMZk6d_nlPmFIZug30-U6Xtj3P31vC78aJ1yuczrrpQy6urfxZi96Qp5fRMV6D9nXG7mqpWO0vAWi8TKrzOnNSkZzQhqsykTCq5TRy39z4TKO-qetB-R0h-vuQ7C26RdtRDZxd5JauY-V7M8Jd4K1B9Z2NQ30uE4o9XUarGfHNGPRQR_s47kR_AN_1nRPpk552agCpA/http%3A%2F%2Finsurgentnotes.com%2F2020%2F03%2Fintroduction-3%2F


For newer subscribers, this warning message is generated because of a 
flaw in the U. of Utah security system supplied by Cisco Systems that 
generates false positives. You should always click it without worries. 
You will be prompted to go to the website or not. Since it is part of a 
message from a Marxism list subscriber, it will be legitimate like this 
one, directing you to a symposium on the late Noel Ignatiev who was a 
friend and comrade of mine.


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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2020-02-06 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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On 2/6/20 2:34 PM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:


https://secure-web.cisco.com/1UuPJEwAgg9b7PiVkneOszD9SDm-n4il_4KqDcGcDuxLIf9KKuOEDExIU7MctZ94YujnkbMHEti8kfhrcrVu-zmtpUAXRi8dFy7nGsLsnM1O-Og3Z_hBxXwAMr1fSIeH4vX7aCMU5z9G2yKS9N018UEmM7CDMbh2ECHRZffLPfcAQy6DjB6gbVta_9NN1_27y_RTcZll_Mo-MfpbOsknD4VjYlvele6t-piUtflSAl4xb3QAGXiJOVoK8PCS02XVr0XJLoFLv_V7tkw8PMkKwndhZ6nK1Dq3Gd8iSas8L-Xg2hYcG7iCZutTnK7j3VkhS_L76yQXFNDuvvXvQl4tUhThiRxWDiMbspO-r0JjLq7lYOrCRNHcUxI4rCKqhkcjr/https%3A%2F%2Fwashingtonbabylon.com%2Fwhy-hollywood-sucks-starship-troopers-children-of-men%2F


Best regards,
Andrew Stewart
- - -
Subscribe to the Washington Babylon newsletter via 
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1u8nK6_o6FxgCe6xZd31R3Y4krt5IM9KeECN_ZR1FcTuGP_vBd9ecm8PVgwgUMMNgVzZ5APGPuWYRHmRC3hdHU044LKxAHWRRn5ilglsBsE8ahXj2OhtA_eog-j5Go-Ut4D6BT7bUHznUY9D3dKw7bD1Z5e-l2QD3ipG2DEolTygMP3nRuu_Mw914xEVNK9-5viopN0okl95a7hjOHspU1D4HSXxISzpw2MkCTA9CQ2BLEut4ZfWFfnZwmB1h3SExLZiQwFLtxAYiB3LkGBOQGiy1O3GI80YLvyYSHd6WyYfg8xh8P6sQpqwtP1G8b1tH27wl5xQ9RqRRfRxsGRVHVpsqGo9Oa8821Z8XFKtuJgKZH4AlM58Pq0D8VAm2upyz/https%3A%2F%2Fwashingtonbabylon.com%2Fnewsletter%2F


For new subscribers, please don't be intimidated by the "suspicious 
message" business. The computer systems at the U. of Utah, where 
Marxmail resides, have a quirky anti-malware system from Cisco that 
generates false positives. Clicking a link above or any other with the 
scary looking link will only result in you being connected to a Cisco 
page that asks if you want to see the page you are being protected from, 
as if messages to Marxmail originated in a Moscow basement. Just click 
the link on the Cisco page saying that you want to go ahead and 
everything will be just fine. I promise.

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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2019-09-07 Thread Joseph Green via Marxism
  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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Louis, that's not my experience. Instead of being connected to a page that asks 
permission to go to the website it deems suspicious, I always get a Cisco 
Security 
page that simply says "404 Bad Request".   I have to use google to get to the 
actual page. 


On 6 Sep 2019 at 22:06, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
> 
> A reminder.
> 
> When you see that scary "suspicious message" thing, it only means
> that 
> the malware-protection system at U. of Utah has issued a "warning".
> It 
> is not a real problem since the target links are ALWAYS legitimate.
> All 
> you need to is click the U. of Utah-generated link and then you will
> be 
> connected to a page that asks your permission to go to the website
> it 
> deemed suspicious. A bit of a hassle but only 15 seconds worth.
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> org



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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2019-09-06 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
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A reminder.

When you see that scary "suspicious message" thing, it only means that 
the malware-protection system at U. of Utah has issued a "warning". It 
is not a real problem since the target links are ALWAYS legitimate. All 
you need to is click the U. of Utah-generated link and then you will be 
connected to a page that asks your permission to go to the website it 
deemed suspicious. A bit of a hassle but only 15 seconds worth.

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2019-08-06 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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On 8/5/19 10:54 PM, Philip Ferguson via Marxism wrote:

At the risk of being repetitive, these frightening looking links are 
harmless. Just click them and you will be prompted to approve going to 
the pages Phil forwarded. This will be the last time I remind comrades 
of this. Since we have no control over Cisco's stupid security system, 
we just have to live with it.




Text of oration at Dungiven oration for INLA Volunteer, hunger striker
Kevin Lynch, Sunday, July 28:
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1JvNAjTPgoseBducyT9P1NzlMSEwSHlmvtnsaW1Is4T05HhOtno-WDXZu1YEnTX7uy8Ya4vK1opVNF8k2Krh0H3Ff67pBqRh5HekeeKxEwcOl851PfsasWG9jVZAD35z8YHJ6lP5Ty02orBw8yT8HOoum9GNmFqK4hkn9UaDgBkXBy1CfXn9VKfneaZqK9XPQDCTjIvKKrEtH_QxhBW-5c85vOwwxqBCxF5bIW4wmvs3dcInILDkW9fqsyIAzJqAHWhdsuCWBuq-R4o1b1N4lyZF2LxLIBirXSpZSScH72-j2o7wPjTbcje0HakEz0Gy7podYcSQCPXRxvfLp9xcdPryEZ2Z89ZHNgQUbAbFAQwhrUEc2X0GXoYCCgODCx0K4UbDJIo-bmKoVBOYRcu5Tkw/https%3A%2F%2Ftheirishrevolution.wordpress.com%2F2019%2F08%2F02%2Ftext-of-main-oration-at-dungiven-commemoration-for-inla-volunteer-kevin-lynch-sunday-july-28%2F

Support August 10 anti-internment protest, Belfast:
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1aqBKsCC7yDX9N2iNklOBn4NLy1rqRDix9JVjnLXIygQpS-cwkzmh_FcEz9ZTSfojRgY5c964eAMPN8NkayFlSb__0sDpiMoDENtTQ4seSsMQ2m1RCdadpdaGsT0z-AgW0W7AZwku-CBx8HbEDE87Evjozac5Ie7ZDNbQqU0BQPhq4bx6wlvOOmfhi-MWt_UvlkjBEh_fsGdsFYWrntVv-hg_STMDMPMd_qVdF4Xia3reQPzVzgQEDufFv3I13DI49dceIReAKalVcT1rte9LHkC3eGxJY3ZI8fVzo2225NNU8CASXQjE6kR-X7TlWpoU5BHfQK3GC1Xy2A63xrxG4pZidg3oVObvnjFhzbyhC08K3KTaxuZRSvnbt63G7sCk-Ea1olWSgBpo7FSM6SywTA/https%3A%2F%2Ftheirishrevolution.wordpress.com%2F2019%2F08%2F04%2Fsupport-august-10-anti-internment-protest-belfast%2F

"They or we must quit this island" - James Fintan Lalor on the landlord
class (1848):
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1UBIYyDtD-Ay9tseJMrWJA2IFS0NGRmsymaFIz-iQ6DtxWX4jWZXo6RFio1fTYK0ZbkPYhLQl1ARNiV3HxTXUibqcyZGqWNiipI7qN7Rqn1JI8pfNmhJQ4SjfeK4iM-irJihzE5Y5CceBMPrf37T7Pr8zGy8-qxZUntvGw8HBf6nouxl0RJFYDGX8HUBk_Ofth6FYxX5-1HHPIeqaUCDVmAvL84_uIH_0esSNKf_TtBtsKIyXa4cy5LJYSRDOqBdn6Er1XLqLKxuOWEDBk_5ul3pBmDvZByBnenLg9ucIHdv2LqOTq7iB3f-EM1bJljdi0bYXCfzpV5A3SC_4lJVNNp_jG6_gP_K1eMCb_DYPynkXg7rTzrchWJ3-hfl3xesaojHMeT2hLygXKvF52DF7sg/https%3A%2F%2Ftheirishrevolution.wordpress.com%2F2019%2F07%2F29%2Fthey-or-we-must-quit-this-island-fintan-lalor-on-the-landlord-class-june-1848%2F

 From the slums of Dublin to the battlefields of Spain - Brigadista Bob
Doyle:
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1PIgR61wgew14tGIbP1aXE8od8gVA-9SANDhuYcjr-UEhdcVvokqCtIYeRe3VdcRLZEAhr_CYsEQFWryAtlZ8Hv38rvytRRtqYsxg3rmbbEX_qqz1oIvyF-1OuXFMHcJXXrOYksxRO7gxSawsB4t61i-hP_7_h6K7ubZKfvD_192eF-f_y0zd4ct_b1JkEVjVNwH2ax7SlsVkG4yXEloehlNDxZf5YR-pkNYK5UKccBR4KMvQu_uR66WhVN1RAr410g3DH9wAHi-isenDwtw6Ob6r7NUqsajxsnEZQEi8Xxef41Tp97LWlF_XTCo5opKoOJ7VGKSivQRYP1bg-dpznpi0YircEmB4nyiTvd3CfREQzcNMAUMKeERI6ZGldfZcFhOfaGL_GRWLUhs00_fGlw/https%3A%2F%2Ftheirishrevolution.wordpress.com%2F2019%2F07%2F24%2Ffrom-the-slums-of-dublin-to-the-battlefields-of-spain-brigadista-bob-doyle-1915-2009%2F

The political evolution of the Provisionals:
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1_XLGhSULY9zmQ_FlZ1WFUv7zG7d_Lwez6zIJlCJ7njjEGmzc1FMhkwavXZuagqPle5ASJYjsIBVE1LHEcLTBoUPx6-RyXDSzM0T9Xb447It26xGmtSnT7rhpzqtD8qn5PNzLCyCi0zNI6gs3dS87jL9Fxf3ji_pTbj6i8Tp1RtfsrfTYBIgYerE91sunY_swiJO5Aurvr1Z4si0cWsAOvdnFjjFBeAGpg_VFGOvMU0G2dV1AOnDRQpwjjTJOUH2IhAmltek--v_wutTaWQXl6U5FVDATkwAPhufg2u4MuG5bNMqvk1JZ_aCkDGmaM-_Gl2RQwVYbt8CNGIEsvwq_NkAXqaEsMqWQiWeNvYKjG70vwnbwc646yVodhrUK8GxTCFDJ5yJgTeLU6lUODxp_Nw/https%3A%2F%2Ftheirishrevolution.wordpress.com%2F2019%2F07%2F07%2Feddie-oneill-and-mark-hayes-on-the-political-evolution-of-the-provisionals%2F

When CS gas came to the floor of the House of Commons:
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1nu4nUrIn6d6PNcqTlNwWnggsJAoGONwYV02vP9KFh6kZ9gHvkksvDC98xYYPIpMaFwBdkhBYh1txK6RqKhpOtKcnkiyRGkqkbDeQlMRMbPDniDL8xNi5_V5G38GWZPdRATqjb-ISRC_cHcO8LsQ_KCTcQR_beGO2u5Vh4q4yMvgeHWWt-qDkoz2Q7KNAiR85tkBtkkNlVg94owSmKtqHDr5GlLwVVmYSd-GbrgnO8x6ot2G1J6L1NDbE_eA-hhdzxKNZHEYBheGoZkkjIbRT0eV6jQ_1zccKjHC01PDHoquHviseMC9TwTef-ce8glK7gUOuJsomub3UmV03GhAnVscNQcem3MQkFE8wtQDBQg0si0agisSNWhExstEQ9McwCD8INAAMRRR6boETQ5oJiQ/https%3A%2F%2Ftheirishrevolution.wordpress.com%2F2019%2F07%2F01%2F6696%2F
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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2019-07-24 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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*

On 7/24/19 1:49 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:\
The reader can’t help but empathize with Tiitu and her fight to create 
and maintain a community. This is everyone’s fight. Most of us on this 
planet but face the basic need of affordable housing. Tiitu, in her 
youth, stumbles upon what could be the answer for her in the long term. 
A block of homes are available to the right buyers, those with a certain 
determination and persistence. Tiitu understands that she must be 
willing to not only rebuild her home from scratch but also be ready to 
fight the local bureaucracy and keep the forces of gentrification at 
bay. Tiitu Takalo charms and informs with her words and pictures: part 
history, part memoir, and part quirky observation. Takalo offers up a 
most inviting narrative that just goes to show that, no matter where one 
lives, whether in Seattle or in Finland, we are more alike than we are 
different. We all need shelter. We all have an instinct to fight for our 
lives. And it is all too often the least fortunate going up against the 
powers that be. Takalo brings all of that home for the reader.


https://secure-web.cisco.com/1hdoU0j3eGv0as4BBRpVCnJeoBZ2-W2HPoJ7yZlD_9y9wE1y1Qy4Q8vVNScruYj0lYd6xJXxB1XM6bHQoS2MrvH0aImR_4-NI-q1cS9ZSD_dkD79jlPLJkaSaDDG0EY625R6m0sCMXJbkwCVWzNBvJF3wSegnPVNfeSlFMEBIJ7HUYAobSP0eC2gHnLFbNNxDH4VeI8bswG0wJU8V40bYoQ5H7Q5iNV0S8R743HZaIPrNDfpx3eS3m4auQYgWwV9Fd23U_fL8MeA3H5MPX781sMhmjMnkAAivTDUmtKg74E_wlB-DZURiOgPeYZ-wCQy_i44Brqh2eiagaRZpHrJ-EobCV-vJqPTzKgH78fQD2rAWl2ly3XCerm3BsdLCLPf7/https%3A%2F%2Fcomicsgrinder.com%2F2019%2F07%2F23%2Freview-me-mikko-and-annikki-by-tiitu-takalo%2F 



Just another reminder. Click the link above and you will be prompted by 
the security software to allow access to the website that was viewed 
(falsely) as "suspicious". These links look scary but are routine.

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2019-07-22 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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On 7/22/19 2:44 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:


https://secure-web.cisco.com/1owzT-ckNDAJcDIY2NsW2mzunsnRe8Yx2_PKJ_esgU6t7QgK_bIIGgkfYS311VtU2ZxcSRcuxdfRxecMX-kGZ--g3h1yTQLbVCPybUUt7R-mhbUzMW0upbU9YiqwLk6Ngl-8qsuBdpBkhndAxUoer4eJKwDjopaEvA9rn5L8NR8XMGA90oiFJS8bbFibzxb1TK4kQ7BwNaa0LsWBy-27sGLICUCbwttYT7GnqKPcYjFMkwowYymXvOuJfEgbRfVXOjFLAzTDG4Sm5TT8IH8acF18i_AZdQeB3XW1Ql1L3EQvpo3yj-LPFruH_0BVLDo7SclCvaJ953sGd3FETGTOQpBpGjSZA2_hNxcT_8idk5d0YavzKTTMx9xxOEPrl4Ab7/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworld%2Famericas%2Fstudent-thesis-presentation-underwear-cornell-university-new-york-a8348716.html 



Reminder. This is only a warning. If you click the link above, you will 
be directed to the Cisco website and be allowed to proceed to the 
article if you click "yes".

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[Marxism] Moderator's note follow-up

2019-07-21 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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Just out of curiosity, I clicked that "suspicious message" link that 
comes up from time to time and that cropped up more frequently than 
usual in the last day or two. What happens is that you are directed to 
the Cisco website (Cisco is the vendor of the security software) and 
allowed to go to the website if you click "yes". Since everything that 
is posted here is trustworthy (like an article on economist.com), I 
encourage comrades to simply go through this exercise when you see a 
"suspicious message" warning.

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2019-07-20 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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We seem to be having some kind of technical issues with links being 
flagged as "suspicious" by U. of Utah's security system. For the time 
being, try to remember not to send URL's to the list until we get it 
sorted out. It may take a while to get IT to fix it. I'll try to figure 
out a workaround but in the meantime, let's try to avoid it.

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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2019-02-26 Thread Jeffrey Masko via Marxism
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Perhaps you meant me, J.Masko? I was unaware of this as I mostly lurk. Ty

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 5:25 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
> *
>
> I just purged a number of messages from A. Stewart and J. Pasco from the
> moderator's queue because they had more than 3 recipients. In the
> future, please stay within 3 recipients if you want to avoid being held
> in a moderator's queue.
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-- 

J.A. Masko

"The challenge of modernity is to live without illusions and without
becoming disillusioned."

   Antonio Gramsci.
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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2019-02-26 Thread Mark Lause via Marxism
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Will do.

This was the result of my using email via the phone, with which I'm not
familiar (nor particularly happy).



On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 8:25 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> *
>
> I just purged a number of messages from A. Stewart and J. Pasco from the
> moderator's queue because they had more than 3 recipients. In the
> future, please stay within 3 recipients if you want to avoid being held
> in a moderator's queue.
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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2019-02-26 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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I just purged a number of messages from A. Stewart and J. Pasco from the 
moderator's queue because they had more than 3 recipients. In the 
future, please stay within 3 recipients if you want to avoid being held 
in a moderator's queue.

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2018-09-23 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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On 9/23/18 4:53 PM, ioannis aposperites via Marxism wrote:

You have received a secure message from University Of Utah Health.

*The University of Utah Health takes the protection of your health 
information very seriously. To avoid having our email communications 
opened by unauthorized recipients, and to comply with Federal law, email 
messages from our institution are encrypted.*




I have no idea why this happened. Les Schaffer and I will be monitoring 
this.

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2018-08-31 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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Just for comrades' information, we are dealing with a strange 
political/technical issue. RKOB tried to post a message to the list that 
has neither shown up or is being held in the moderator's queue. It is 
about the USA meeting with Assad. Since the RKOB website is not having a 
problem, I advise those interested in reading the article to go to 
https://www.thecommunists.net/ and read the article at the top of the 
list titled "High-Ranking U.S. Delegation Meets Assad’s Security Chief".

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2018-07-23 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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Comrades have to pay attention to the reminder to clip extraneous text. 
This got caught in the moderator's queue because it exceeded 35k, a 
result of the previous emails that got reposted in their entirety. I am 
only including the whole thread just for illustration's sake.


So REMEMBER TO CLIP EXTRANEOUS TEXT.


On 7/23/18 8:25 AM, John Reimann via Marxism wrote:

I've seen the same statistics on Republican voters' approval of Putin. I
think it has a lot to do with similar social and political attitudes
(anti-gay, religious, etc.) But in any case, I think that those statistics
actually support my contention. The reason is that the old, mainline
conservatives in the Republican Party have lost out. This is exactly the
wing that represents the capitalist class. Take what happened in the
presidential primaries. The mainstream conservatives and the wing of the US
capitalist class they represented had it all set up for Jeb Bush to win the
nomination. It was a sure thing. Guaranteed. We know how well that worked
out.

Now, we hear it over and over again - how different Republican politicians
are afraid to stand up to Trump because he will get them "primaried". In
other words, the next time they run for reelection, he'll mobilize their
base to get them knocked out in the primaries.

In fact, this is a common theme heard over and over in US politics - how
Trump has completely captured the Republican Party. How the traditional
conservatives have capitulated to him. This is why a series of Republicans
are not running again - they don't want to get "primaried" but they fear
that continuing to capitulate to Trump will tarnish their future careers
and reputation. Probably the foremost Republican strategist, Max Boot, has
actually left the Republican Party because of this.

In other words, the capitalist class has not only lost control over the
presidency; they have lost control over their preferred political party.
(Not that the Democrats won't do when needed.) This is a huge development.

On the US-Russian rivalry: Even the closest capitalist allies are always
rivals also to some degree or another. I agree that the basis for the
US/Russian rivalry is not the same as it is with the US/Chinese rivalry.
There, economic competition is clear. But look at the whole issue of the US
alliance with Germany and other Western European countries. Is there not a
conflict there with a Russian alliance? Yes, maybe the whole world order
can get shaken up and a whole new alignment could develop. But it seems to
me that this could not happen without a reordering of the pecking order -
who is on top. And that cannot happen without a real settling of accounts,
meaning without a new world war.

I think the capitalist class in the main dreads something like that too.

Meanwhile, the daily attacks on Trump continue. NBC just did a short
segment on Trump's role as a money launderer for the oligarchs. As I said,
if this starts to come out, then all hell could break loose, but maybe
they'll have to bring it out. If Trump is not a "traitor" to their class,
then we have to explain why they are attacking him in such strong language.
It certainly is unprecedented.

John Reimann

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:26 AM, mkaradjis  wrote:


Lots of good discussion. John and others are emphasising how
"treasonous" Trump appears to be from the point of view of much of the
ruling class; his highly idiosyncratic nature; his financial ties to
the Russian oligarchy etc. My post wasn't aimed at suggesting he was a
"perfect" representative of a wing of the ruling class, whatever that
may look like; and probably some of his wing would prefer he didn't
come with the personality defects and sheer brazenness etc.

But on the ties to the Russian oligarchy for example. Is that unique
to Trump? Would be interesting to know how much of the US ruling class
has ties to the Russian oligarchy. After all, that' what 1991 and the
"fall of Communism" was supposed to be all about wasn't it? If members
of the US ruling class developed ties to Russian oligarchs in the
Yeltsin era, would anyone have batted an eyelid? Wouldn't it have been
considered normal business activity now that Russia had done the right
thing and got rid of "communism"? It might seem less normal than the
powerful ties the US ruling class has with the Israeli ruling class,
but it seems to me that's mainly about tradition, especially when we
consider that the US-Russia connection goes so strongly through
Israel.

Consider these stats:

"in just four years, Gallup shows Republican approval of Russia and
Putin has increased from 18% to a whopping 40%. CBS polling shows a
27-point swing toward a 

[Marxism] MODERATOR'S NOTE NUMBER 4

2018-03-30 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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DON'T PEOPLE FUCKING GET IT BY NOW? I JUST THREW JEFF MEISNER OFF 
MARXMAIL AND I AM NOT FINISHED. IT IS ONE THING FOR PHIL, DAVID AND GARY 
TO WEIGH IN (AS LONG AS THEY DON'T OVERDO IT) BUT I DON'T WANT TO HEAR 
FROM SHELDON RANZ AGAIN.


ENOUGH.
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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2018-03-29 Thread Gary MacLennan via Marxism
  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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 Lou Wrote: This thread on Corbyn et al is getting repetitious. I suggest
that comrades compose a final statement on it and then we move on.

I hear what you are saying Lou but it was good to see the list expand
beyond Trump and the ME. I had started something last night on the evil of
antisemitism but did not feel that I had much to offer beyond what was
canvassed in the thread.

I was interested in your comments (negative) about Corbyn's advisor Seamus
Milne.  He seems though to have a high reputation among the Novara Media
mob whom I follow.

What did interest me was that in the middle of all the fracas Corbyn pulled
off what was by all accounts his best parliamentary performance at PMQT.
Significantly he chose to attack the Tory Government around their treatment
of the mentally ill.

For me that indicates the central weakness of the Right in the Tory and in
the Labour Party at this juncture.  They have no good news to give.  Ditto
for Australia BTW. Accordingly, they can only offer the politics of
distraction. But the politics of distraction does not "put food on the
family" as George Bush might have said.  I suspect in terms of the UK that
outside the MSM and the Westminster Political caste no one gives much of a
damn about a mural -vile and all as it absolutely was.

If I am correct the local election on May 3rd will prove a watershed when
the Tories suffer a well deserved political thrashing.

What then will the Right of Labour do?  Apparently they call themselves the
"kamikazes".  Not the most hegemonic of nicknames I would have thought.
Will they split from the Party?  If they do so their careers will end in
inglorious ignominy. The SDP split in 1981 took place and was part of the
combative phase of neoliberalism.  While he was at the Treasury in 1970 the
Friedmanites in the Bank of England were already beginning to influence
Jenkins, the SDP leader.

The primary intent of the SDP split was to defeat Bennism and it succeeded
in that. But we are in a different phase now. Neoliberalism is no longer
normative and has instead entered a phase of irrational punitive doubling
down.  If the Blairites split now their fate would even be worse than that
of Roy Jenkins and co.

So the UK remains for me the fulcrum of my hopes for a better world. And
Corbyn seems to be still in the game

comradely

Garyn

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 3:58 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
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> *
>
> This thread on Corbyn et al is getting repetitious. I suggest that
> comrades compose a final statement on it and then we move on.
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[Marxism] MODERATOR'S NOTE #3

2018-03-29 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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I have just removed Jeff Meisner from Marxmail for ignoring my instructions.
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[Marxism] MODERATOR'S NOTE NUMBER 2

2018-03-29 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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*

I DON'T NEED ANY FUCKING FLAME WARS ON MARXMAIL. I AM GOING TO BEGIN TO 
UNSUB PEOPLE IF THEY DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT I WROTE EARLIER. I SAID 
TO WRITE ONE LAST STATEMENT AND THEN WE MOVE ON.


ONE OF THE THINGS THAT USED TO MAKE ME QUESTION THE USEFULNESS OF 
LISTSERV'S 20 YEARS AGO WAS HOW THESE THINGS BREAK OUT. A SMALL GROUP OF 
PEOPLE START GOING AFTER EACH OTHER WITHOUT REGARD TO WHETHER ANYBODY 
ELSE IS PARTICIPATING.


ENOUGH.
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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2018-03-29 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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This thread on Corbyn et al is getting repetitious. I suggest that 
comrades compose a final statement on it and then we move on.

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2017-11-16 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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Strange things going on. I was trying to post a link to a Vietnamese 
anarchist's blog but the Utah email system keeps generating weird 
messages rejecting it. I give up!

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2017-02-07 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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Comrades need to remember that when you reply to a message, the Mailman 
software sometimes--for reasons I never was able to figure out--will 
only go to the person you are responding to and not the list. So just 
make sure to include marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu when you post.

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2017-02-05 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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On 2/5/17 2:29 PM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism wrote:


What an insulting, offensive, patronizing entry into this latest refugee
horror.
Prashad has helped exacerbate the refugee crisis with his pandering to
Assad's lies and crimes, and therefore, like the stalinoid
"anti-imperialist" organizations, has no business shedding crocodile tears
for those he helped shipwreck.


This kind of abuse is totally uncalled for.

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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2016-10-17 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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On 10/17/16 8:34 AM, Paddy Hackett wrote:

Hi Louis

Please inform me as to how I broke the list rules. Not aware of having
broken any. To save bandwidth I advise that such postings, as this one
of yours, be sent privately.

Take Care
Paddy Hackett



The Marxism list was created in 1998 not as a platform for people to 
call for the need for socialism (or communism). To even waste bandwidth 
issuing such a call indicates to me that you don't understand why it was 
created.


It was created for experienced Marxists to discuss the finer points of 
Marxist theory and strategy/tactics. By analogy, a mailing list on 
psychotherapy geared to professionals would not need a subscriber 
posting messages to the effect that neurosis is a bad thing.


I am making this public to the list because I am afraid that a private 
message to you would be a waste of time since you seem to be persistent 
in posting these "we need communism" type emails.

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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2016-10-17 Thread Paddy Hackett via Marxism
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Hi Louis

Hi Louis

Please inform me as to how I broke the list rules. Not aware of having
broken any. To save bandwidth I advise that such postings, as this one of
yours, be sent privately.

Take Care
Paddy Hackett

On 17 Oct 2016 13:03, "Louis Proyect via Marxism" <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> *
>
> On 10/17/16 7:21 AM, Paddy Hackett via Marxism wrote:
>
>> I don't share the view that the armed opposition in Syria is serving the
>> interests of the Syrian masses.
>>
>
> Paddy, this is ridiculous. You have to remember that Marxmail has over
> 1500 subscribers worldwide anxious to get correspondence from the list that
> has useful and concrete analysis about the class struggle. Sending a
> message to the list to the effect that Syria (or Ireland) needs a socialist
> revolution is a waste of bandwidth since it is essentially preaching to the
> choir. Don't do it again.
>
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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2016-10-17 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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On 10/17/16 7:21 AM, Paddy Hackett via Marxism wrote:

I don't share the view that the armed opposition in Syria is serving the 
interests of the Syrian masses.


Paddy, this is ridiculous. You have to remember that Marxmail has over 
1500 subscribers worldwide anxious to get correspondence from the list 
that has useful and concrete analysis about the class struggle. Sending 
a message to the list to the effect that Syria (or Ireland) needs a 
socialist revolution is a waste of bandwidth since it is essentially 
preaching to the choir. Don't do it again.


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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2016-10-05 Thread Mark Lause via Marxism
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A simpler explanation than Stalinism is that it's simply a variation of the
stupidities the Clinton camp peddles about how anyone not supporter her is
anti-female, racist and secretly working for Trump.

Every election it seems to me that the civic consumers of one or the other
brand of corporate rationalizers present escalating demonstrations of their
voluntary willingness to make outrageous and plainly idiotic statements.
One hates to see people who are otherwise radicals sucked into it, because
there's no way to have a rational discourse when the contest is about
proving the strength of your feelings with a willines to be irrational.

ML
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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note #2

2016-10-05 Thread A.R. G via Marxism
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I believe the exact quote was "Its no accident that US Greens turn out to
be big supporters of fascism worldwide. In my next blog post I will show
how fascist Trump supporters are warming up to Jill."

That doesn't sound like saying tolerance or cluelessness about fascism. It
sounds like Clay was straight up saying Greens are pro-fascist. I remember
when I (mistakenly) suggested that another member of this forum was
reblogging stuff from a fascist Ukrainian group, I was nearly banned and I
had to apologize to that member and so on. Clay suggested that those of us
who are Green Party people -- including Louis (and Andrew, and me, and I
suspect a significant chunk of this list) are "big supporters of fascism
worldwide". Maybe that's not what he meant, but I don't know what kind of
lefty list-serv would tolerate those sorts of accusations in general. I
think it is obvious that Clay misspoke regardless of how anyone feels about
Louis' moderating policies.

- Amith

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 8:22 PM, Jeff via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
> *
>
> I really don't have any time to be writing this, but I have to strongly
> object to Louis' emotionally-driven action against Clay, and indeed the
> entire capricious manner in which decisions are made. Possibly this doesn't
> have to do so much with Louis himself, as having essentially a dictator in
> place to make such decisions on a whim, which is one reason that dictators
> (like Gaddifi, come to think of it) are a bad idea, even when they start
> out good. I'd be embarrassed for other people to know that I'm on an email
> list in which I find such GOOD politics but gets run in a way that could
> only remind one of the very systems that we are trying to bring down and
> bury in the dustbin of history.
>
> I'm sure Louis genuinely felt that Clay's words amounted to an "amalgam"
> between him and fascism, but that's only because he worked himself up into
> a frenzy rather than trying to understand what Clay was saying. And then 9
> minutes after making an ultimatum, he just said "fuck it" and pushed the
> nuclear button on him. I think Louis needs to attend an anger management
> workshop. Or otherwise to join the black-block and direct his anger against
> deserving targets. I just can't believe someone can stand for the pinnacle
> of democracy that communism is, and abuse their power in such a way.
>
> When Clay made the poorly qualified statement that "Its no accident that
> US Greens turn out to be big supporters of fascism worldwide." he was only
> saying EXACTLY what people on this list -- very much including Louis
> himself! -- have been saying: that the bulk of the left (Jill Stein's fans
> in this case) is frequently comfortable supporting fascists (or far-right)
> such as Assad and Putin. Not because they ARE fascists, but because they
> can't perceive the difference between left and right "anti-imperialism." Of
> course I and Clay are allied to those leftists regardless, but their
> leftism becomes useless when it is so extremely misdirected, sometimes
> literally causing more harm than good. That's the same thing most of us
> (not Andrew Stewart, I'm afraid) have been crying out about, and if Louis
> had taken a minute to get Clay's clarification it would have been clear he
> certainly was not calling any leftist a fascist. Just clueless.
>
> Louis should apologize to Clay for loosing his temper and resub him.
> Period.
>
> - Jeff
>
>
> P.S. Clay: your message is NOT falling on deaf ears! But it's being
> drowned out by those who can't listen.
>
>
>
>
>> On 10/5/16 2:59 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Clay, the next time you make this kind of outrageous amalgam between
>>> Marxmail subscribers like me who back Jill Stein and fascism, I will
>>> unsub you. Once upon a time you were a constructive member of the list.
>>> No matter how hard you try, people are not buying your Democratic Party
>>> sermons. You have turned into a first-class troll and just about
>>> outstayed your welcome. In fact I invite you to unsub yourself because I
>>> doubt that anything can dissuade you from the course you are on. In the
>>> 18 years I have been moderating this list, I have learned to detect when
>>> people have written it off. You are right up there with the worst.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Just after posting this, I 

Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note #2

2016-10-05 Thread Jeff via Marxism

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I really don't have any time to be writing this, but I have to strongly 
object to Louis' emotionally-driven action against Clay, and indeed the 
entire capricious manner in which decisions are made. Possibly this 
doesn't have to do so much with Louis himself, as having essentially a 
dictator in place to make such decisions on a whim, which is one reason 
that dictators (like Gaddifi, come to think of it) are a bad idea, even 
when they start out good. I'd be embarrassed for other people to know 
that I'm on an email list in which I find such GOOD politics but gets 
run in a way that could only remind one of the very systems that we are 
trying to bring down and bury in the dustbin of history.


I'm sure Louis genuinely felt that Clay's words amounted to an "amalgam" 
between him and fascism, but that's only because he worked himself up 
into a frenzy rather than trying to understand what Clay was saying. And 
then 9 minutes after making an ultimatum, he just said "fuck it" and 
pushed the nuclear button on him. I think Louis needs to attend an anger 
management workshop. Or otherwise to join the black-block and direct his 
anger against deserving targets. I just can't believe someone can stand 
for the pinnacle of democracy that communism is, and abuse their power 
in such a way.


When Clay made the poorly qualified statement that "Its no accident that 
US Greens turn out to be big supporters of fascism worldwide." he was 
only saying EXACTLY what people on this list -- very much including 
Louis himself! -- have been saying: that the bulk of the left (Jill 
Stein's fans in this case) is frequently comfortable supporting fascists 
(or far-right) such as Assad and Putin. Not because they ARE fascists, 
but because they can't perceive the difference between left and right 
"anti-imperialism." Of course I and Clay are allied to those leftists 
regardless, but their leftism becomes useless when it is so extremely 
misdirected, sometimes literally causing more harm than good. That's the 
same thing most of us (not Andrew Stewart, I'm afraid) have been crying 
out about, and if Louis had taken a minute to get Clay's clarification 
it would have been clear he certainly was not calling any leftist a 
fascist. Just clueless.


Louis should apologize to Clay for loosing his temper and resub him. 
Period.


- Jeff


P.S. Clay: your message is NOT falling on deaf ears! But it's being 
drowned out by those who can't listen.





On 10/5/16 2:59 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:


Clay, the next time you make this kind of outrageous amalgam between
Marxmail subscribers like me who back Jill Stein and fascism, I will
unsub you. Once upon a time you were a constructive member of the 
list.
No matter how hard you try, people are not buying your Democratic 
Party

sermons. You have turned into a first-class troll and just about
outstayed your welcome. In fact I invite you to unsub yourself because 
I
doubt that anything can dissuade you from the course you are on. In 
the
18 years I have been moderating this list, I have learned to detect 
when

people have written it off. You are right up there with the worst.



Just after posting this, I realized that there is no point retaining
Clay Claiborne on Marxmail and unsubbed him. 3 months of his
provocations were tolerated by me because he hadn't caused problems in
the past. I guess when some people can't accept the fact that their
message is falling on deaf ears, they only raise their voice. But
they'd better figure out whether we are deaf before going on and on.
My ears are pretty good even though I have serious eye problems.


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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note #2

2016-10-05 Thread William Quimby via Marxism

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In behalf of the lurker community, Thank You!

- Bill

-

Louis Proyect wrote...

Just after posting this, I realized that there is no point retaining 
Clay Claiborne
on Marxmail and unsubbed him. 3 months of his provocations were 
tolerated by

me because he hadn't caused problems in the past. I guess when some people
can't accept the fact that their message is falling on deaf ears, they 
only raise their
voice. But they'd better figure out whether we are deaf before going on 
and on.

My ears are pretty good even though I have serious eye problems.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note #2

2016-10-05 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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On 10/5/16 2:59 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:


Clay, the next time you make this kind of outrageous amalgam between
Marxmail subscribers like me who back Jill Stein and fascism, I will
unsub you. Once upon a time you were a constructive member of the list.
No matter how hard you try, people are not buying your Democratic Party
sermons. You have turned into a first-class troll and just about
outstayed your welcome. In fact I invite you to unsub yourself because I
doubt that anything can dissuade you from the course you are on. In the
18 years I have been moderating this list, I have learned to detect when
people have written it off. You are right up there with the worst.



Just after posting this, I realized that there is no point retaining 
Clay Claiborne on Marxmail and unsubbed him. 3 months of his 
provocations were tolerated by me because he hadn't caused problems in 
the past. I guess when some people can't accept the fact that their 
message is falling on deaf ears, they only raise their voice. But they'd 
better figure out whether we are deaf before going on and on. My ears 
are pretty good even though I have serious eye problems.

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2016-10-05 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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On 10/5/16 2:42 PM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism wrote:

Its no accident that US Greens turn out to be big supporters of fascism
worldwide. In my next blog post I will show how fascist Trump supporters
are warming up to Jill.


Clay, the next time you make this kind of outrageous amalgam between 
Marxmail subscribers like me who back Jill Stein and fascism, I will 
unsub you. Once upon a time you were a constructive member of the list. 
No matter how hard you try, people are not buying your Democratic Party 
sermons. You have turned into a first-class troll and just about 
outstayed your welcome. In fact I invite you to unsub yourself because I 
doubt that anything can dissuade you from the course you are on. In the 
18 years I have been moderating this list, I have learned to detect when 
people have written it off. You are right up there with the worst.

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2016-09-02 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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On 9/2/16 11:15 AM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism wrote:


I feel like the treachery of the "anti-imperialist" Left,which is no
stranger to white chauvinism, has come home/



Stop name-calling, Clay. Calling people traitors is strictly prohibited 
here. The Marxism list that preceded this one was destroyed by that kind 
of invective. In fact the 60s left imploded because every major 
political difference was escalated into exposing traitors to the left. I 
saw the SWP collapse because dissidents were regarded as a "petty 
bourgeois" opposition while the Maoists were always splitting over who 
was the "revisionist". I don't mind heated debates but try to stick to 
the issues.

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2016-07-13 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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On 7/13/16 9:17 AM, Jeff via Marxism wrote:

I just forwarded Tony Greenstein's reply to Amith's accusations. Tony tried
to join the list but has some technical problems. I trust the moderator
will help him straighten that out so he can participate normally in the list.
- Jeff


I am not interested in Greenstein showing up here to duel with Amith. I 
put him on moderation as soon as I saw that he had subscribed. This is a 
Marxism mailing list, not a list about anti-Semitism in the Palestinian 
solidarity movement. Frankly, I am getting fed up with these flame wars 
that erupt every few months over the same god-damned issues over and 
over again. Years ago I set up a Yahoo mailing list to discuss the SWP. 
I might be forced to do the same thing with the by now tired old 
bullshit about Allison Weir et al.

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2016-05-10 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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The next time I see someone ignoring my instructions to clip extraneous 
text, they will lose their posting privileges for a month. I am sick and 
tired of reminding people about this especially when every message you 
get from the list indicates that right at the top.

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[Marxism] Moderator's note -- final

2016-04-30 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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It is 4:42pm in NYC. At midnight EST time, the Allison Weir thread is 
terminated. Frankly, it is nothing except a repeat of the same arguments 
I heard on the first go-round and I can kick my ass for even saying a 
single word about it this time.


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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2016-04-29 Thread A.R. G via Marxism
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Jeff can have "the last word," I am not engaging in this nonsense any
further. I'm more than happy to discuss the actua substance of Nada Elia's
article.

On Friday, April 29, 2016, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> *
>
> On 4/29/16 12:58 PM, Jeff via Marxism wrote:
>
>> What's more, the day's almost over here and I have plans
>> for the evening, so I guess you're saying that Amith gets the last word on
>> the subject.
>>
>
> Where are you? In Holland? Just give yourself another 24 hours starting
> now and then that's that.
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>


-- 
- Amith
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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2016-04-29 Thread Kevin Lindemann and Cathy Campo via Marxism
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Jeff wrote:

> You can't just start a discussion
> and then shut it down when it's starting 
> to get to the point.

Jeff, I agree with everything you've said about Alison Weir and If Americans 
Knew (and I agreed with DW's post and Louis' comment that "Allison Weir is a 
person whose views are shaped by the general milieu, one that is not favorable 
to a class analysis"), but your comment above is wrong: It's Louis' list, and 
he can do whatever he wants.

> Now if I'm wrong, I have the right to view
> replies to my mistakes so that I can correct 
> my mistakes. I, like all, am
> here to learn 

The discussion can be continued off of the list, but I doubt there's much that 
can be added. I think Louis was wrong to call you a "tiresome troll" (your 
posts have been thoughtful and substantive), but the discussion has become 
repetitive. Can't we agree on that and drop the subject for now? (I suspect 
Alison Weir and If Americans Knew will come up again in a different context, 
and perhaps then there will be something new to say.) 

--Kevin
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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2016-04-29 Thread Jeff via Marxism
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At 12:47 29-04-16 -0400, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
>
>On 4/29/16 11:52 AM, Jeff via Marxism wrote:
>> You can't just start a discussion
>> and then shut it down when it's starting to get to the point
>
>Of course I can. Feel free to write whatever you want but tomorrow we 
>move on.

That's not ok, for all the reasons I listed before which you clipped (but I
restored below). What's more, the day's almost over here and I have plans
for the evening, so I guess you're saying that Amith gets the last word on
the subject. You yourself made some brief but sharp remarks on the subject
(essentially denying what I thought I proved in my post) so you should
either be willing to defend that, retract your erroneous position, or admit
that you're unsure. If you are unsure, then you should be soliciting
additional information and discussion, not preventing it. Pretending the
issue doesn't exist on this list does nothing to resolve the issue among
the other 99% of the left who face the same issues.

- Jeff


At 17:52 29-04-16 +0200, Jeff via Marxism wrote:
>
>At 11:29 29-04-16 -0400, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
>>
>>I made a mistake by getting into the Allison Weir question. We spent far 
>>too much time on that originally
>
>Wait a minute! I spent considerable time compiling the information that,
>yes, I should have posted earlier when YOU permitted a "guest post" on your
>blog unjustly attacking the very organizations that brought the problem
>with her and her organizations to light. You can't just start a discussion
>and then shut it down when it's starting to get to the point. According to
>a leading and prolific poster on this list, all that I have written about
>her is wrong or misleading. Now if I'm wrong, I have the right to view
>replies to my mistakes so that I can correct my mistakes. I, like all, am
>here to learn (FYI I am not involved in any party that has a stake in the
>questions).
>
>So let us now "learn" why all the facts I compiled shouldn't justify the
>positions reached by Jewish Voice for Peace, the US Campaign to End the
>Israeli Occupation, and Stanford Students for Justice in Palestine.
>Obviously this isn't an unimportant discussion nor is it going away. If we
>have a fundamental disagreement about whether the far-right should be
>involved in Palestine solidarity, then we need to know that. But the post I
>was directly addressing asked for evidence of any such thing, I provided
>that evidence, and I expect a reply from any and all concerned quarters.
>Including the moderator whose (tentative?) position on right-wing
>involvement in support of Palestine is so contrary to his admirable
>positions regarding the right in Russia, the Ukraine, Syria, etc. that I
>can barely believe I'm talking to the same person.
>
>- Jeff

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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2016-04-29 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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On 4/29/16 11:52 AM, Jeff via Marxism wrote:

You can't just start a discussion
and then shut it down when it's starting to get to the point


Of course I can. Feel free to write whatever you want but tomorrow we 
move on.

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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2016-04-29 Thread Jeff via Marxism
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At 11:29 29-04-16 -0400, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
>
>I made a mistake by getting into the Allison Weir question. We spent far 
>too much time on that originally

Wait a minute! I spent considerable time compiling the information that,
yes, I should have posted earlier when YOU permitted a "guest post" on your
blog unjustly attacking the very organizations that brought the problem
with her and her organizations to light. You can't just start a discussion
and then shut it down when it's starting to get to the point. According to
a leading and prolific poster on this list, all that I have written about
her is wrong or misleading. Now if I'm wrong, I have the right to view
replies to my mistakes so that I can correct my mistakes. I, like all, am
here to learn (FYI I am not involved in any party that has a stake in the
questions).

So let us now "learn" why all the facts I compiled shouldn't justify the
positions reached by Jewish Voice for Peace, the US Campaign to End the
Israeli Occupation, and Stanford Students for Justice in Palestine.
Obviously this isn't an unimportant discussion nor is it going away. If we
have a fundamental disagreement about whether the far-right should be
involved in Palestine solidarity, then we need to know that. But the post I
was directly addressing asked for evidence of any such thing, I provided
that evidence, and I expect a reply from any and all concerned quarters.
Including the moderator whose (tentative?) position on right-wing
involvement in support of Palestine is so contrary to his admirable
positions regarding the right in Russia, the Ukraine, Syria, etc. that I
can barely believe I'm talking to the same person.

- Jeff


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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2016-04-29 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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I made a mistake by getting into the Allison Weir question. We spent far 
too much time on that originally and I have no interest in a repeat. So 
the discussion is closed after today.

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2016-01-12 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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Lueko has been removed from the list for ignoring my instructions to 
cease posting about Cologne.

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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2016-01-12 Thread Dennis Brasky via Marxism
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He should have been removed for his rape apologia!

On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 11:25 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> Lueko has been removed from the list for ignoring my instructions to cease
> posting about Cologne.
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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2016-01-12 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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You'll be the next to go if you don't can it.

On 1/12/16 11:41 AM, Dennis Brasky wrote:

He should have been removed for his rape apologia!

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2015-07-31 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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Let's let this Council for the National Interest thread drop. More heat 
than light is being generated at this point.

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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2015-07-19 Thread Thomas via Marxism
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Having been subjected face to face to the raving, incoherent spittle-laced 
yelling of JIm Robertson, on one occasion, in those long lost 1960's, and 
having been physically attacked on another occasion decades later by a 
Spartacist League member, Creegan [sp?] seems to me a pussycat in comparison. 

That said, perhaps a red line is whether or not anyone uses a personal insult, 
grounds for removal from any discussion group.

If someone wishes to write that some political view of mine is stupid, or will 
lead inevitably to a reformist disaster, or is an accommodation to the swamp of 
petite bourgeois veganism, fair enough.  That’s a discussion.  From time to 
time I have expressed political views that were stupid.  Who has not?  Those 
who bluntly pointed that out did me a service, painful as it was at the time.

If someone calls me stupid, or says I am a reformist disaster, or calls me a 
petite bourgeois veganist, that's over the line.  Name calling is over the line 
in any discussion group.  One warning would be sufficient.

Of course it is the option of the creator of a discussion group to set what 
limits seem reasonable and proper.

T

-Original Message-
From: Mark Lause via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
Sent: Jul 19, 2015 11:49 AM
To: Thomas F Barton thomasfbar...@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

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The list isn't a party or a movement body. Yes, there are inconsistencies
and injustices result.

The fact of the matter has always been that this is Louis' operation.  That
has been the most functional solution to having an ongoing 24/7 flame war
over who should or shouldn't be here.

There simply exists no mechanism for a democratic email list, Much less a
democratic-centralist email list.  Or does someone have an alternative that
they've not implemented or are keeping secret?

In this case, a second chance would not be amiss, particularly if there's a
general acknowledgement of the remote possibility that the working class
can be betrayed by people trying to figure out the situation in Greece in
an email discussion.

Solidarity!
Mark L.
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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2015-07-19 Thread Mark Lause via Marxism
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The list isn't a party or a movement body. Yes, there are inconsistencies
and injustices result.

The fact of the matter has always been that this is Louis' operation.  That
has been the most functional solution to having an ongoing 24/7 flame war
over who should or shouldn't be here.

There simply exists no mechanism for a democratic email list, Much less a
democratic-centralist email list.  Or does someone have an alternative that
they've not implemented or are keeping secret?

In this case, a second chance would not be amiss, particularly if there's a
general acknowledgement of the remote possibility that the working class
can be betrayed by people trying to figure out the situation in Greece in
an email discussion.

Solidarity!
Mark L.
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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2015-07-18 Thread Andrew Pollack via Marxism
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You're booting Jim for doing class analysis?
That's fucked up.
To be precise, that's Stalinism.

On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:

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 On 7/18/15 11:55 AM, James Creegan via Marxism wrote:

 I make this prediction because I think that the left-reformism you speak
 of, more than just a set of mistaken ideas, is closer to a class ideology
 based upon the position of middling layers (small business people,
 professionals of various kinds, union bureaucrats and party politicians)
 in
 capitalist society. And it is, unfortunately, these layers that are most
 prominent in the Western left today.



 Let Jim Creegan play scratch to gangrene somewhere else. I really don't
 listen to someone play-act Leon Trotsky versus James Burnham here. He is
 getting the boot.
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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2015-07-18 Thread Andrew Pollack via Marxism
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When push comes to shove, it's always Louis's list.
Unsub me.

On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote:

 On 7/18/15 4:00 PM, Andrew Pollack wrote:

 You're booting Jim for doing class analysis?
 That's fucked up.
 To be precise, that's Stalinism.


 No, it's not. This is not a party. I don't collect dues or ask people to
 sell a stupid newspaper at plant gates 6am in the morning.

 It is a mailing list that I have the right to edit, to create boundaries
 around just like any other publication, print or electronic. I don't tend
 to remove people from the list unless I decide that their purpose here is
 only to do class analysis as you put it. I had 11 years of this kind of
 class analysis in the Trotskyist movement and that was enough for me. If
 anybody wants to set up a mailing list where you can blather on about the
 petty-bourgeoisie, contact me privately and I'll help you get started.

 This list has been around for 17 years and has over 1500 subscribers. If
 there's one thing I've learned over the years, it is that is not the place
 to do Leon Trotsky imitations. Here's a reminder from the Marxmail website
 subscription page for anybody tempted to repeat the Cannon-Shachtman debate:

 MODERATION PRINCIPLES: The Marxism mailing list is extremely permissive.
 There are a couple of things that are frowned upon strongly. If you come to
 the list with the attitude that you are a true Bolshevik, who needs to
 convert 'Mensheviks' to your beliefs, you will be unsubbed. Members of
 self-declared vanguard parties who can adjust to the tolerant atmosphere of
 the list are more than welcome, since they usually bring with them years of
 Marxist study and political experience.


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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2015-07-18 Thread Marv Gandall via Marxism
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On Jul 18, 2015, at 4:18 PM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism 
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:
 
 When push comes to shove, it's always Louis's list.
 Unsub me.

It always has to be Louis’ list, because he’s incapable of functioning in a 
broader mileu over a sustained period of time. He would be quickly chewed up in 
a trade union, workers’ party or other mass organization where his belligerent 
egotism would not be tolerated for very long. And he claims to be building an 
inclusive, non-sectarian left in the USA! How preposterously self-deluding can 
you get?

I thought the exchange between Creegan and Karadjis was thoughtful and 
respectful on both sides. I’ve had my differences with both of them and others 
on the list over the past decade, but would happily call them comrades and 
function collectively with them in the same party. Not so Proyect, whose first 
instinct is to denounce. Most recently, he’s had the colossal gall to denounce 
those who have not followed him across the aisle to the austerian side as 
ideological purists and wild-eyed proponents of a new revolutionary 
international. I hope I’m wrong, but this is the kind of language I associate 
with those embarking, without fully realizing it, on that well-trodden path of 
many former leftists.

I can’t abide petty martinets. For all its merits and the presence of good, 
serious people who subscribe to it, leaving this iist is not, after all, like 
leaving the old mass parties of the left. Unsub me also.


 
 On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote:
 
 On 7/18/15 4:00 PM, Andrew Pollack wrote:
 
 You're booting Jim for doing class analysis?
 That's fucked up.
 To be precise, that's Stalinism.
 
 
 No, it's not. This is not a party. I don't collect dues or ask people to
 sell a stupid newspaper at plant gates 6am in the morning.
 
 It is a mailing list that I have the right to edit, to create boundaries
 around just like any other publication, print or electronic. I don't tend
 to remove people from the list unless I decide that their purpose here is
 only to do class analysis as you put it. I had 11 years of this kind of
 class analysis in the Trotskyist movement and that was enough for me. If
 anybody wants to set up a mailing list where you can blather on about the
 petty-bourgeoisie, contact me privately and I'll help you get started.
 
 This list has been around for 17 years and has over 1500 subscribers. If
 there's one thing I've learned over the years, it is that is not the place
 to do Leon Trotsky imitations. Here's a reminder from the Marxmail website
 subscription page for anybody tempted to repeat the Cannon-Shachtman debate:
 
 MODERATION PRINCIPLES: The Marxism mailing list is extremely permissive.
 There are a couple of things that are frowned upon strongly. If you come to
 the list with the attitude that you are a true Bolshevik, who needs to
 convert 'Mensheviks' to your beliefs, you will be unsubbed. Members of
 self-declared vanguard parties who can adjust to the tolerant atmosphere of
 the list are more than welcome, since they usually bring with them years of
 Marxist study and political experience.
 
 
 _
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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2015-07-18 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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On 7/18/15 4:00 PM, Andrew Pollack wrote:

You're booting Jim for doing class analysis?
That's fucked up.
To be precise, that's Stalinism.



No, it's not. This is not a party. I don't collect dues or ask people to 
sell a stupid newspaper at plant gates 6am in the morning.


It is a mailing list that I have the right to edit, to create boundaries 
around just like any other publication, print or electronic. I don't 
tend to remove people from the list unless I decide that their purpose 
here is only to do class analysis as you put it. I had 11 years of 
this kind of class analysis in the Trotskyist movement and that was 
enough for me. If anybody wants to set up a mailing list where you can 
blather on about the petty-bourgeoisie, contact me privately and I'll 
help you get started.


This list has been around for 17 years and has over 1500 subscribers. If 
there's one thing I've learned over the years, it is that is not the 
place to do Leon Trotsky imitations. Here's a reminder from the Marxmail 
website subscription page for anybody tempted to repeat the 
Cannon-Shachtman debate:


MODERATION PRINCIPLES: The Marxism mailing list is extremely permissive. 
There are a couple of things that are frowned upon strongly. If you come 
to the list with the attitude that you are a true Bolshevik, who needs 
to convert 'Mensheviks' to your beliefs, you will be unsubbed. Members 
of self-declared vanguard parties who can adjust to the tolerant 
atmosphere of the list are more than welcome, since they usually bring 
with them years of Marxist study and political experience.


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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2015-07-18 Thread Michael Yates via Marxism
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I thought that Michael K replied to Jim C with well-argued points and without 
rancor. Jim C answered in the same way. These are complex issues, and passions 
run deep. So perhaps Louis should reconsider giving Jim C the boot. Jim's 
position would surely not be one alien to Greek radicals, and some would surely 
agree with him. I might argue that his definition of class position is too pat 
and somewhat formulaic. But on the other hand, as Michael Lebowitz argues in 
his new book, The Socialist Imperative: From Gotha to Now, and he has 
consistently argued for years, as we participate in production, we produce not 
only goods and services but ourselves as well. So, and especially because the 
class position we are in has a great deal to do with that of our parents, it 
seems self-evident that whatever their intentions and character, those who come 
from highly educated professional families with high incomes are likely to 
follow in their parents' footsteps. They may be sympathetic to working p
 eople and radical in their writing and thinking, but this doesn't always 
translate into knowing what it is like to be a working person without such 
advantages, to really feel it. They also may well have an entire set of 
unexamined notions and emotions that buttress modes of being that take for 
granted what they have materially and make it seem crazy that they should ever 
have to give these things up. All of this can condition politics, even behind 
the back, so to speak, of such persons.

Anyway, I often go off the deep end berating people, at least in my head, for 
not seeing that their life circumstances, including parental income, education, 
and employment, as well as their own income, education, and employment, shape 
what they believe and the political actions they are willing to take. But there 
is I think always some truth in what I say or think about this. 
  
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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2015-07-18 Thread aaron s. amaral via Marxism
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the tolerant atmosphere of the listlmao

On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism 
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:

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 When push comes to shove, it's always Louis's list.
 Unsub me.

 On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote:

  On 7/18/15 4:00 PM, Andrew Pollack wrote:
 
  You're booting Jim for doing class analysis?
  That's fucked up.
  To be precise, that's Stalinism.
 
 
  No, it's not. This is not a party. I don't collect dues or ask people to
  sell a stupid newspaper at plant gates 6am in the morning.
 
  It is a mailing list that I have the right to edit, to create boundaries
  around just like any other publication, print or electronic. I don't tend
  to remove people from the list unless I decide that their purpose here is
  only to do class analysis as you put it. I had 11 years of this kind of
  class analysis in the Trotskyist movement and that was enough for me.
 If
  anybody wants to set up a mailing list where you can blather on about the
  petty-bourgeoisie, contact me privately and I'll help you get started.
 
  This list has been around for 17 years and has over 1500 subscribers. If
  there's one thing I've learned over the years, it is that is not the
 place
  to do Leon Trotsky imitations. Here's a reminder from the Marxmail
 website
  subscription page for anybody tempted to repeat the Cannon-Shachtman
 debate:
 
  MODERATION PRINCIPLES: The Marxism mailing list is extremely permissive.
  There are a couple of things that are frowned upon strongly. If you come
 to
  the list with the attitude that you are a true Bolshevik, who needs to
  convert 'Mensheviks' to your beliefs, you will be unsubbed. Members of
  self-declared vanguard parties who can adjust to the tolerant atmosphere
 of
  the list are more than welcome, since they usually bring with them years
 of
  Marxist study and political experience.
 
 
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-- 


 Seek for food and clothing first, then
the Kingdom of God shall be added unto you.
   Hegel, 1807

  The class struggle, which is always present to a historian influenced by
Marx, is a fight for the crude and material things without which no refined
and spiritual things could exist. Nevertheless, it is not in the form of
the spoils which fall to the victor that the latter make their presence
felt in the class struggle. They manifest themselves in this struggle as
courage, humor, cunning, and fortitude. They have retroactive force and
will constantly call in question every victory, past and present, of the
rulers. As flowers turn toward the sun, by dint of a secret heliotropism
the past strives to turn toward that sun which is rising in the sky of
history. A historical materialist must be aware of this most inconspicuous
of all transformations.

-Walter Benjamin, Spring, 1940

NYCSOCIALIST.ORG
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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2015-07-18 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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On 7/18/15 4:27 PM, aaron s. amaral via Marxism wrote:

the tolerant atmosphere of the listlmao


From an ISO member, no less.

Aaron, you will find a lot more POV's represented here than in the pages 
of your newspaper or at one of your conferences


Furthermore, there were more ISO'ers who got the boot in the last two 
years from your group than were unsubbed from this mailing list over the 
past ten. So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2015-07-18 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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On 7/18/15 11:55 AM, James Creegan via Marxism wrote:

I make this prediction because I think that the left-reformism you speak
of, more than just a set of mistaken ideas, is closer to a class ideology
based upon the position of middling layers (small business people,
professionals of various kinds, union bureaucrats and party politicians) in
capitalist society. And it is, unfortunately, these layers that are most
prominent in the Western left today.



Let Jim Creegan play scratch to gangrene somewhere else. I really 
don't listen to someone play-act Leon Trotsky versus James Burnham here. 
He is getting the boot.

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2015-03-01 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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The Nemtsov thread has run its course. Let's move on to other matters 
since Marxmail is not the proper forum for solving crimes, or 
speculating on the guilt or innocence of Vladimir Putin in Nemtsov's 
murder. Our emphasis is on class questions such as the role of Russia in 
world politics, something that can be determined by examining the 
evidence of its role in Ukraine, the treatment of Pussy Riot and gays, etc.

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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2015-03-01 Thread ioannis aposperites via Marxism

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On 01/03/2015 10:27 μμ, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:


The Nemtsov thread has run its course. Let's move on to other matters
since Marxmail is not the proper forum for solving crimes, or
speculating on the guilt or innocence of Vladimir Putin in Nemtsov's
murder. Our emphasis is on class questions such as the role of Russia in
world politics, something that can be determined by examining the
evidence of its role in Ukraine, the treatment of Pussy Riot and gays, etc.


Amen
JA
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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2015-01-13 Thread A.R. G via Marxism
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So I obviously don't agree with Dan's opinion about CH, but I think that
particular question is a legitimate one. How should Marxists, Muslim or
not, view Mohamed as a historical figure?

On Tuesday, January 13, 2015, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:

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 On 1/13/15 9:14 PM, Dan via Marxism wrote:

 ising 100 lashes if you don’t die of laughter.


 And what was Mohammed if not a fairly standard oriental primitive ? He
 was oriental. He was primitive. And he was fairly standard in his lust
 for power and domination, using religion and military might to murder,
 plunder, rape and conquer. A fairly standard dictator who would order
 mass executions and torture prisoners, but also forgive certain tribes
 who swore allegiance to him.


 This kind of crude and ignorant Islamophobic trash does not belong on the
 Marxism list. I am instructing Dan and anybody else tempted to send out a
 message like this in the future that it will lead to removal from the list.


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-- 
- Amith
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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2015-01-13 Thread Andrew Pollack via Marxism
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Dan is clearly a hopeless racist.
But as for Amith's important question, best I know of is Maxime Rodinson's
biography.

On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 10:12 PM, A.R. G via Marxism 
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:

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 *

 So I obviously don't agree with Dan's opinion about CH, but I think that
 particular question is a legitimate one. How should Marxists, Muslim or
 not, view Mohamed as a historical figure?

 On Tuesday, January 13, 2015, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
 marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:

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  *
 
  On 1/13/15 9:14 PM, Dan via Marxism wrote:
 
  ising 100 lashes if you don’t die of laughter.
 
 
  And what was Mohammed if not a fairly standard oriental primitive ? He
  was oriental. He was primitive. And he was fairly standard in his lust
  for power and domination, using religion and military might to murder,
  plunder, rape and conquer. A fairly standard dictator who would order
  mass executions and torture prisoners, but also forgive certain tribes
  who swore allegiance to him.
 
 
  This kind of crude and ignorant Islamophobic trash does not belong on the
  Marxism list. I am instructing Dan and anybody else tempted to send out a
  message like this in the future that it will lead to removal from the
 list.
 
 
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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2015-01-13 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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On 1/13/15 9:14 PM, Dan via Marxism wrote:

ising 100 lashes if you don’t die of laughter.


And what was Mohammed if not a fairly standard oriental primitive ? He
was oriental. He was primitive. And he was fairly standard in his lust
for power and domination, using religion and military might to murder,
plunder, rape and conquer. A fairly standard dictator who would order
mass executions and torture prisoners, but also forgive certain tribes
who swore allegiance to him.


This kind of crude and ignorant Islamophobic trash does not belong on 
the Marxism list. I am instructing Dan and anybody else tempted to send 
out a message like this in the future that it will lead to removal from 
the list.



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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2015-01-07 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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On 1/7/15 3:46 PM, Shane Mage via Marxism wrote:




Ah, but opium, used right, is a very valuable drug!


I have removed Shane Mage from the Marxism list. When I tell you that 
six times is enough. And then repeat the word enough in upper-case, that 
means you should take me seriously. Shane has been hanging out here for 
a decade or so on and off and I have never seen anything out of him 
except 2 or 3 sentence provocations. And this was a guy who wrote a 
seminal PhD dissertation on Marx's value theory. They say that LSD fried 
his brain. Who knows. Whatever the explanation, I am sick and tired of 
his fooling around here.

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2015-01-01 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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After thinking about it for a minute more, I decided to remove Charles 
Andrews. He has no interest in having serious discussions here. It's the 
first time someone has been booted from Marxmail in well over a year. I 
think most people have figured out that it is a valuable resource. If 
you are here to expose me as a class traitor, you will get unsubbed. 
In fact, if you are here to expose anybody, you will be unsubbed. That 
kind of crap helped to destroy the mailing list that preceded Marxmail 
16 years ago and I am determined to keep this one on an even keel.

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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2014-11-30 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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On 11/30/14 12:52 PM, Charlie via Marxism wrote:

LP wrote: Our job as Marxists is simply to form the left wing of new
formations like Syriza or Podemos to keep them honest.

We must translate LP's posts into Greek and Spanish. The communists of
Greece and Spain await his guidance. Because LP knows:

A wise armchair revolutionary comments on foreign countries more than
on his own. --attributed to E. Debs


Charlie, you are smart enough to have written a book on Marxist 
economics that was pretty well-regarded. But you also seem to be stupid 
enough to waste bandwidth here with sterile sniping at me. The next time 
you do this, I will have to remove you. There are 1500 subscribers to 
Marxmail who are entitled to read serious, thoughtful and substantive 
posts. Do not waste our time again.


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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2014-11-30 Thread Wythe Holt jr. via Marxism
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There were a lot more recruits to socialist views during Debs's time, so it was 
wise to concentrate leftwing advice and organizing at home.  While there is 
still much work to be done here in the US, giving a moribund leftwing movement 
life and work at home today means using examples from abroad, while 
simultaneously attempting to help foreign leftwing movements to grow and to 
stay on a socialist path.

Wythe

From: Marxism marxism-boun...@lists.csbs.utah.edu on behalf of Louis Proyect 
via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2014 12:10 PM
To: Wythe Holt jr.
Subject: [Marxism] Moderator's note

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On 11/30/14 12:52 PM, Charlie via Marxism wrote:
 LP wrote: Our job as Marxists is simply to form the left wing of new
 formations like Syriza or Podemos to keep them honest.

 We must translate LP's posts into Greek and Spanish. The communists of
 Greece and Spain await his guidance. Because LP knows:

 A wise armchair revolutionary comments on foreign countries more than
 on his own. --attributed to E. Debs

Charlie, you are smart enough to have written a book on Marxist
economics that was pretty well-regarded. But you also seem to be stupid
enough to waste bandwidth here with sterile sniping at me. The next time
you do this, I will have to remove you. There are 1500 subscribers to
Marxmail who are entitled to read serious, thoughtful and substantive
posts. Do not waste our time again.

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Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note

2014-11-30 Thread Mark Lause via Marxism
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The reason we don't have more to discuss in the U.S. in terms of ongoing
movements isn't due to some act of God.

American radicals have had a myriad of opportunities to accomplish things
in the U.S.  It is astonishing that they actually haven't even been able to
come close to figuring out what needs to be done to hold together something
like Occupy--or to build a movement out of the mass discontent over the
militarization of the police and the quite war waged on black youth.

ML
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[Marxism] Moderator's note: removing your post from public homepage

2014-11-23 Thread Les Schaffer via Marxism
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this email is addressed to the ex-subscriber living in Europe who
continues to email Lou and myself (ten times) asking that we erase my
name out of the public homepage:

we have answered you many many times and never received a response. on
the off chance that you are reading the list on the web, i send this as
last resort. check your spam filters to see if you are blocking
responses from Lou and myself.

but, the bottom line is: we are actually UNABLE to handle your request.
what you ask for cannot be done, we do not have any control over a
number of the servers where your name appears in a posting. sorry.

Les
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[Marxism] Moderator's note

2014-09-05 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


Yesterday someone asked that a post be removed from the Marxmail 
archives because it could cause problems for someone who was mentioned 
in the post. Unfortunately, Hans Ehrbar no longer has access to the 
server that Marxmail resides on at the U. of Utah. This means you should 
exercise some caution before posting to the list, especially those of 
you who are using your real name and expect to be on the job market some 
day and don't want a potential employer finding out that you are for 
preemptive nuclear war or some other wild idea.


I should add, however, that with the Snowden revelations, there is no 
point in using an alias except for that reason. Big Brother is watching 
you and you'd better get used to it.


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