Re: [Marxism] Re antifa
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I am glad to hear from Daniel and Jeff saying all the Antifa groups they met support Palestine and wish I had the same experience. On Thu, Jun 4, 2020, 10:47 AM Daniel Lindvall via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > That surprises me. Here in Sweden the antifa milieu is as good as 100 % > strongly anti-zionist! I’ve never come across anyone associated with antifa > who was not pro-Palestinian. > > > > > Speaking from personal experience. It is of course impossible to get an > > accurate read of every Antifa-type's personal views given the nature of > > their non-organizatiom, but apologetics for Israel and suspicion of the > > Palestinian cause is fairly normal and I've come across it more than > > occasionally. > > > > > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Re antifa
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * You do realize that that's not the same a coherent movement position, don't you? I mean you could cite something I wrote as presenting the Trotskyist position on such-and-such, but it still wouldn't be that. It's just be my position. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Re antifa
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * " As is usual with people who have not chosen to identify themselves or formulate a more coherent position among themselves, serious attempts at an analysis are going to break down." I disagree...here's some evidence to the contrary in the forms of books by Rob Carley: 2019 *Culture & Tactics: Gramsci, Race, and the Politics of Practice*, in the series *Praxis: Theory in Action*. Albany, NY: State University of New York Press. 2019 *Autonomy, Refusal, and The Black Bloc: Positioning Class Analysis in Critical and Radical Theory*, in the series *Radical Subjects in International Politics: Action and Activism*. London, UK: Rowman and Littlefield International. There are of course many other scholarly articles and books on the subject in Rob's bibliography that can help folks on the subject _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Re antifa
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * That surprises me. Here in Sweden the antifa milieu is as good as 100 % strongly anti-zionist! I’ve never come across anyone associated with antifa who was not pro-Palestinian. > > Speaking from personal experience. It is of course impossible to get an > accurate read of every Antifa-type's personal views given the nature of > their non-organizatiom, but apologetics for Israel and suspicion of the > Palestinian cause is fairly normal and I've come across it more than > occasionally. > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Re antifa
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * As is usual with people who have not chosen to identify themselves or formulate a more coherent position among themselves, serious attempts at an analysis are going to break down. Follow people in masks who won't share their identity with you has historically been a good way to wind up following Special Officer Friendly . . . or worse. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Re antifa
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Speaking from personal experience. It is of course impossible to get an accurate read of every Antifa-type's personal views given the nature of their non-organizatiom, but apologetics for Israel and suspicion of the Palestinian cause is fairly normal and I've come across it more than occasionally. Re: systemic racism, I've definitely heard them *say* they see it as a problem, but their street-fighting adventures appear to focus entirely on the fringe. I am 31, I hope I'm not the Old Guard yet. On Thu, Jun 4, 2020, 9:48 AM Jeffrey Masko via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > "Antifa groups (with the sole exception of Antifa groups in Israel) > support Zionism outright or simply have shitty views on the topic > altogether. In my experience they have equally asinine views about > anti-black racism, believing it to be a problem with individuals rather > than a problem with the institutions that govern society, which they > confuse with hate groups." > > I have no idea where you came up with this as these claims are 100% > incorrect and it astonishing to see smears like this on this list. I don't > know of any U.S. based groups that are Zionist and none that don't see > racism as systemic. I don't know whose blog you read, but anyone who > actually knows these folks or work with them know that is completely > insane. "Kids" from the antifa subculture may not be as educated as some of > you on this list and may not understand the consequences of their actions > beyond the short term, but misrepresentations of them either willfully or > through ignorance will not get them to listen to the "old guard," which is > what I suspect annoys most of the haters. > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Re antifa
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * "Antifa groups (with the sole exception of Antifa groups in Israel) support Zionism outright or simply have shitty views on the topic altogether. In my experience they have equally asinine views about anti-black racism, believing it to be a problem with individuals rather than a problem with the institutions that govern society, which they confuse with hate groups." I have no idea where you came up with this as these claims are 100% incorrect and it astonishing to see smears like this on this list. I don't know of any U.S. based groups that are Zionist and none that don't see racism as systemic. I don't know whose blog you read, but anyone who actually knows these folks or work with them know that is completely insane. "Kids" from the antifa subculture may not be as educated as some of you on this list and may not understand the consequences of their actions beyond the short term, but misrepresentations of them either willfully or through ignorance will not get them to listen to the "old guard," which is what I suspect annoys most of the haters. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Re antifa
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * https://www.ibtimes.com/george-floyd-protests-despite-trumps-claims-fbi-finds-no-intel-linking-antifa-riots-2987021 _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Re antifa
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I am weary of drawing any conclusions about Antifa other than that they have no ideological coherence and the individuals attempting to create such coherence are reactionaries and imbeciles. For example, Matt Lyons who writes for Political Research Associates (where many of these Antifa types try to get the air of professionalism by working at an NGO) has written extensive blog articles on what is (basically) the premise of the Antifa worldview: that fascism is itself a revolutionary anti-capitalist ideology in its own right, like the Left, and seeks to put forward an alternative revolution in lieu of a socialist/communist one. As such, fascists sometimes use revolutionary rhetoric, and the slogan that the cops and the Klan go hand-in-hand is actually wrongheaded. Because fascists are also revolutionaries, it is therefore reasonable to subject leftist and other dissident groups to a ruthless witch-hunt to find anti-Semitism and Nazi infilitration in order to prevent the rise of a fascist takeover under the guise of leftism. The evidence of this looming threat given by Lyons and others are terrorist attacks by far-right groups and the existence of hate crimes. There are, separately, Antifa types that still hold the cops-and-the-Klan worldview, but who aren't much better. Because they also view the cops and fascists as one in the same, they view street-fighting with Nazis as an alternative to revolutionary activity and structural critiques of capitalism. Why fight the cops when you can fight the traveling circus of fringe Nazi hate groups? They end up internalizing the dominant ideologies of capitalism because they mistake fighting it with fighting fringe weirdos, which explains why Antifa groups (with the sole exception of Antifa groups in Israel) support Zionism outright or simply have shitty views on the topic altogether. In my experience they have equally asinine views about anti-black racism, believing it to be a problem with individuals rather than a problem with the institutions that govern society, which they confuse with hate groups. So while the mechanics of these factions differ, the underlying conclusion is the same: fascism poses some sort of overarching, persistent threat to society, and trying to find it and engage in street brawls with it is either an alternative to or necessary for replacing capitalism. Separate from this bizarre and leaderless series of incoherent cults is the wider "black bloc" anarchist network that, both in the US and in Europe, engages in property destruction and looting in order to thwart the police. Without knowing who they are or what they stand for (or if they stand for a coherent single thing at all) it is not worth generalizing about their ideology: they are reduced to the tactics they use and nothing more, namely rioting. So as for rioting as a tactic, I think we should view it as any other tactic: something that might effect change under certain circumstances, but not on its own. The notion that a group of people can break some windows or burn a store down and cause revolutionary change in the system is belied by the fact that far greater destruction to property has taken place during war, economic crises, etc. without suddenly prompting a revolution. If that is the goal, then it is foolish. However, I do believe that these kinds of militant tactics, under specific circumstances, might provide a sort of "force multiplier". The rebellion that is taking place throughout the United States right now is not being driven by the Antifa types or the black bloc types, whether they self-identify as Antifa or agree with the hucksters who speak on their behalf. The people flooding the streets are attempting to throw a wrench in the system. This is true whether they are smashing up department stores, blocking traffic, or even just defying curfews. Note, they all stopped following social distancing as well. It is obvious why: during a massive recession that may soon become a depression, they are watching a white supremacist who openly breaks the law and calls for shooting people egg them on and defend police racism, all while failing to ensure their basic needs are protected. Indeed, the system has actually encouraged that they put themselves at greater risk of the pandemic by returning to work as an alternative to ensuring they are bailed out and protected from landlords, etc. In essence, legitimate governance had already collapsed before the mass rebellion and the rebellion is simply a response to that crisis of legitimacy which calls for the government to be replaced. In such a circumstance, I believe that "black bloc tactics" could potentially lend to
Re: [Marxism] Re antifa
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * If they think that, are they proposing to overthrow that government with baseball bats, because I have news for them . . . . _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Re antifa
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Those within the antifa subculture have a wide range of premises, perhaps more important to them is the idea of no-platforming. They tend to feel those in power are "nazis" or at least white nationalist sympathizers and that's why they fight; they aren't fighting to keep America being taken over by the far right, they are fighting because they feel the U.S. is been controlled by the far right for a long time now. Whether or not, they are correct is another story. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Re antifa
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Antifa"s key premise--that the Nazis came to power because their opponents, for some reason, failed to fight them--is just historically dead wrong. On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 3:47 PM Jeffrey Masko via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > Jeez, antifa is a subculture like punk-rock, actually it's a sub-sub > culture of punk rock. Ask someone if they belong to punk rock and they will > shake their head, even if they still go to Gilman street punk rock shows. > Can subcultures be reactionary and violent? Sure, look at outlaw bikers. > But to ask if they are revolutionary (whether they be bikers or antifa > kids) is like asking if a left jab is revolutionary as rioting is a > technique or move and not even a tactic. > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/markalause%40gmail.com > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Re antifa
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Jeez, antifa is a subculture like punk-rock, actually it's a sub-sub culture of punk rock. Ask someone if they belong to punk rock and they will shake their head, even if they still go to Gilman street punk rock shows. Can subcultures be reactionary and violent? Sure, look at outlaw bikers. But to ask if they are revolutionary (whether they be bikers or antifa kids) is like asking if a left jab is revolutionary as rioting is a technique or move and not even a tactic. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Re antifa
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 6/3/20 2:03 PM, Ron Jacobs via Marxism wrote: The responses to my defense of antifa were predictable. Louis, like he usually does, confuses the amorphous and difficult to define antifa with the black bloc which operates somewhere between the autonomist movement and the early weatherman ( days of rage). It is not difficult at all. Antifa means street-fighting as if this were the Weimar Republic in 1928. I have not heard about some other type of activism it is involved with. Which leads me to ask what role it plays, if any, in the protests today. If the goal is to confront and beat down fascists, I am not sure how they relate. It's been a while since there's been any fascist parades, right? _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Re antifa
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * The responses to my defense of antifa were predictable. Louis, like he usually does, confuses the amorphous and difficult to define antifa with the black bloc which operates somewhere between the autonomist movement and the early weatherman ( days of rage). Once that misrepresentation is assumed, he proceeds with criticism that is both warranted and unwarranted. He and I have debated this more than once. Ken's comments seem to reflect the former ISO position, which is actually not counter to most antifa manifestations. In other words, the most effective way to shut down fascists is through mass protests. Obviously, the militance of those protests depends on the locale and other such things that always come into play at protests. Misconstruing antifa is part of what my piece was about. Even the FBI has stated they have no evidence of Antifa involvement in rioting or looting this past week-- whatever that's worth. Ron j _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
