Re: [Marxism] Syria: Slaughter in Idlib (re: How Much Does the Pentagon Pay for the YPG?)
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * > On Feb 28, 2020, at 5:01 AM, Chris Slee via Marxism > wrote: > > Michael, can you send a link to this article on Saraqeb. > > Chris Slee I’m sure Michael is referring to this one: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/10/fall-of-syrian-town-delivers-strategic-and-symbolic-prize-to-assad _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Syria: Slaughter in Idlib (re: How Much Does the Pentagon Pay for the YPG?)
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Michael, can you send a link to this article on Saraqeb. Chris Slee From: Marxism on behalf of mkaradjis . via Marxism Sent: Friday, 28 February 2020 12:36:37 PM To: Chris Slee Subject: Re: [Marxism] Syria: Slaughter in Idlib (re: How Much Does the Pentagon Pay for the YPG?) POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Saraqeb this is a quote from the article Gilbert sent: “We wanted a free Syria for all Syrians but they wanted an Islamic state. We continued against all the odds: we challenged the regime, Ahrar al-Sham, Islamic State and al-Nusra. In the end the jihadists took over but we left our city with dignity knowing how much we endured to keep Saraqeb free.” _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/chris_w_slee%40hotmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Syria: Slaughter in Idlib (re: How Much Does the Pentagon Pay for the YPG?)
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Chris: > "The strongest armed group in Idlib today is Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, a very reactionary group with a history of persecuting religious minorities. Thus the war in Idlib is now a conflict between what academic Gilbert Achcar calls 'two counter-revolutionary poles' ". Louis: You got to get out of the habit of citing authority. Gilbert also voted to give the Isaac Deutscher prize to the ultra-toxic Roland Boer. He is not always right. Me: More importantly, you need to avoid quoting people out of context. When using this phrase, which he has used for years, Gilbert is talking in sweeping terms about the entire Arab Swing period, including in Syria, but that is not a tactical prescription for every theatre of war. Gilbert does believe what he calls the '3rd pole' - the democratic forces - are more or less crushed in Syria, and while this is increasingly true, I think he simplistically jumped to that conclusion earlier than was warranted. Even then, however, it is not possible to quote his sweeping formula as a "line" on the slaughter in Idlib right now, which is essentially how your article came across, and how it used his quote out of context. I accept your regret about omitting reference to forces still resisting HTS as well as Assad, but even if put in this does not appear to be the position of SA/GLW. I happen to be on a list-serve with Gilbert and others who deal with Syria. Gilbert does not often throw in his opinion, but the titles of last few links he has sent were: The fall of Kafranbel; Investigating airstrikes on hospitals in Syria; US visa denied to researcher who exposed Assadist chemical lies;Too little, too late: Where Turkey undermined the rebellion; Syria: Fall of Saraqeb delivers Assad a strategic and symbolic prize. AS these were not his personal writing, I think it is OK I send the name of the articles here. It is fairly obvious where he stands on these issues: on Assad's conquest of Kafranbel and Saraqeb, its bombing of hospitals, on Assadist and "anti-imperilaist" lies about Assad's chemical warfare etc; Turkey's role is rightly condemned overall, but indeed "too little too late" is a perfect description of its current standing up to Assad in Idlib. If we talk about "two counterrevolutionary poles" in Idlib, even if we could be that simplistic, then how do we understand that Assad's string of conquests in the last month - Maraat al-Nuuman, Saraqeb, Atareb, Kafranbel - have all been precisely the centres of democratic resistance throughout the war. It is no coincidence that Assad and Putin, while pretending to be most concerned about HTS, have mercilessly bombed these towns throughout the war, and that they were first on the list to be conquered. Actually, their continued existence till now contradicts Gilbert's own more extreme analyses on the destruction of the democratic opposition, but it is clear where he stands. Does this mean however that, now these towns have been overrun, and thus the domination of HTS over what is remaining is even stronger, that the current massacre can be reduced to a conflict of counterrevolutions? That would be an extremely undialectical and simplistic, and in context, politically immoral, position to take. One side has an airforce and a foreign invader that is bombing hospitals, schools, refugee camps, refugees on the road, entire cities into dust. One side has driven some 2 million people into camps along the Turkish border. There is no "neutrality" here. If you want to use the "clash of counterrevolutions" thesis in a more logical way, I would say that if HTS had massive armed forces and an airforce with an awesome array of barrel bombs, cluster bombs and the rest, and it was invading the Alawite-dominated coastal provinces or besieging and bombing central Damascus, driving a couple of million Alawites into the sea, then we could make a comparison with what Assad is doing in Idlib. A situation, that is, with the same reality as Hamas breaking out of Gaza with its airforce and besieging, conquering and carpet bombing Tel Aviv and Jaffa, driving the Jews into the sea. On Saraqeb this is a quote from the article Gilbert sent: “We wanted a free Syria for all Syrians but they wanted an Islamic state. We continued against all the odds: we challenged the regime, Ahrar al-Sham, Islamic State and al-Nusra. In the end the jihadists took over but we left our city with dignity knowing how much we endured to keep Saraqeb free.” _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Syria: Slaughter in Idlib (re: How Much Does the Pentagon Pay for the YPG?)
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 2/27/20 6:53 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote: The relevant paragraph from my article reads: "The strongest armed group in Idlib today is Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, a very reactionary group with a history of persecuting religious minorities. Thus the war in Idlib is now a conflict between what academic Gilbert Achcar calls 'two counter-revolutionary poles' ". You got to get out of the habit of citing authority. Gilbert also voted to give the Isaac Deutscher prize to the ultra-toxic Roland Boer. He is not always right. Furthermore, if you had been covering Idlib more thoroughly for the past few years, you'd have more credibility. You obviously see it as a cabal of Turkish and Islamicist goons, just as you see Rojova as paradise on earth. Maybe 7 years ago (I can't be bothered tracking in down), your comrade Tony Iltis wrote that the FSA was dominated by bandits and warlords. Your problem is that you reflect the bias of the YPG, whose ineffable leader once said that if Assad was overthrown, the country would go to the dogs. I don't imagine that any of this would have any impact on you. I am writing for the benefit of people who haven't lost their senses. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Syria: Slaughter in Idlib (re: How Much Does the Pentagon Pay for the YPG?)
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Michael Karadjis says: "the US has lent its airforce to the YPG/SDF for years". But the US has "lent" its airforce only to fight ISIS, not to resist the Turkish invasion of northern Syria. The limited military supplies which the US has given to the SDF are no match for NATO-armed Turkey. Michael says: "...several weeks ago Chris sent a GLW article to the list, written, sadly, by himself (I expected better of Chris), which said, in the context of this horrific slaughter going on, that the only resistance to evil in Syria is of course "Rojava", while the "conflict" in Idlib is between two bad sides". The relevant paragraph from my article reads: "The strongest armed group in Idlib today is Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, a very reactionary group with a history of persecuting religious minorities. Thus the war in Idlib is now a conflict between what academic Gilbert Achcar calls 'two counter-revolutionary poles' ". https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/northern-syrias-two-wars Michael is right to point out that there are still people in Idlib struggling for democracy, who have "resisted HTS even as they fought off Assad". It is a deficiency of my article that I did not make this point. Michael says: "...humanity requires we give TOTAL support to any military action by Turkey, in support of the independent rebel groups there, to resist Assad's genocidal attacks and his regime's complete reconquest of the region". Probably most people in Idlib would prefer to be under Turkish protection than under Assad's rule. Such protection, if it continues, would develop into military occupation, and would be very oppressive. But still, most people in Idlib would probably regard it as a lesser evil. People in some other parts of Syria have a different view of who is the lesser evil. Kurds and religious minorities tend to view Turkey as a greater evil. Hence the acceptance of some Assad regime troops and Russian troops in northeastern Syria as a deterrent to the further expansion of the Turkish-occupied area. Chris Slee From: Marxism on behalf of mkaradjis . via Marxism Sent: Thursday, 27 February 2020 12:56:19 AM To: Chris Slee Subject: [Marxism] Syria: Slaughter in Idlib (re: How Much Does the Pentagon Pay for the YPG?) POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I don't agree that the YPG/SDF are mercenaries, Chris is right that they fight their own fight which just happens, for years and years, to be in full agreement with US aims in Syria, though at times it also corresponds to Russian aims. It's no use arguing about how many hundreds of millions of dollars: the US has lent its airforce to the YPG/SDF for years, as entire cities were obliterated. It's simply hilarious that some western YPG cheerleaders still play "anti-imperialism" and call the Syrian rebels "US-backed" etc, while of course the US never flew a single plane for any rebel group, and actively blocked them from getting manpads to shoot down Assad planes. While Assad has bombed everywhere in Syria probably 100s of 1000s of times over 8 years, the one and only time the US ever shot down an Assadist warplanes in all these years was when Assad tried to attack the US's SDF allies. Of course, all this alliance of interests with US and/or Russia could conceivably be a long coincidence, but I don't think it can be analysed outside of the arch-opportunist politics of the PYD leadership. As Louis said, its fundamental problem was that it refused, from day 1, to join the revolution against Assad, to even attempt to seek out alliances. This is now a bigger problem: can Chris find us any statement in which the PYD/YPG/SDF declares some kind of human solidarity with the people of Idlib and northwest Syria as they are facing this genocidal slaughter by Assad and Russia? Of course the answer is no. And even worse are their western cheerleaders. For example, several weeks ago Chris sent a GLW article to the list, written, sadly, by himself (I expected better of Chris), which said, in the context of this horrific slaughter going on, that the only resistance to evil in Syria is of course "Rojava", while the "conflict" in Idlib is between two bad sides. That was an appalling article. Mind you, it was written before Assad's recent reconquest of all the great revolutionary cities and towns: Maraat al-Nuuman, Saraqeb,
[Marxism] Syria: Slaughter in Idlib (re: How Much Does the Pentagon Pay for the YPG?)
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I don't agree that the YPG/SDF are mercenaries, Chris is right that they fight their own fight which just happens, for years and years, to be in full agreement with US aims in Syria, though at times it also corresponds to Russian aims. It's no use arguing about how many hundreds of millions of dollars: the US has lent its airforce to the YPG/SDF for years, as entire cities were obliterated. It's simply hilarious that some western YPG cheerleaders still play "anti-imperialism" and call the Syrian rebels "US-backed" etc, while of course the US never flew a single plane for any rebel group, and actively blocked them from getting manpads to shoot down Assad planes. While Assad has bombed everywhere in Syria probably 100s of 1000s of times over 8 years, the one and only time the US ever shot down an Assadist warplanes in all these years was when Assad tried to attack the US's SDF allies. Of course, all this alliance of interests with US and/or Russia could conceivably be a long coincidence, but I don't think it can be analysed outside of the arch-opportunist politics of the PYD leadership. As Louis said, its fundamental problem was that it refused, from day 1, to join the revolution against Assad, to even attempt to seek out alliances. This is now a bigger problem: can Chris find us any statement in which the PYD/YPG/SDF declares some kind of human solidarity with the people of Idlib and northwest Syria as they are facing this genocidal slaughter by Assad and Russia? Of course the answer is no. And even worse are their western cheerleaders. For example, several weeks ago Chris sent a GLW article to the list, written, sadly, by himself (I expected better of Chris), which said, in the context of this horrific slaughter going on, that the only resistance to evil in Syria is of course "Rojava", while the "conflict" in Idlib is between two bad sides. That was an appalling article. Mind you, it was written before Assad's recent reconquest of all the great revolutionary cities and towns: Maraat al-Nuuman, Saraqeb, Kafranbel, Atareb etc - ie, centres of the democratic revolution that always resisted HTS even as they fought off Assad, yet for GLW even then they were all already swept under the rug of being all jihadists or Turkey mercenaries. Even if you can't get yourself to do a little study and know these things, and even now after these towns have fallen, there is still no equivalence between the fascist regime with all the horrific means of mass killing, including its airforce, supplemented by the invading Russian imperial power, and the resistance in Idlib, no matter how vile some of the forces involved in leading military resistance are. This kind of simplistic nonsense analysis has been far and wide on Syria, but in the past SA/GLW may have been able to do more complex analysis; now all you have to do is check out what Rojavist sites are saying. Chris says when some rebel (or ex-rebel) groups jo0ihned Turkey's invasions of Afrin and northwest Syria and attacked the SDF and Kurdish populations, they had become mercenaries. I agree. Note by the way, that Euphrates Shield, when Turkey invaded alongside Syrian rebels to evict ISIS from mid-northern Syria, returning these rebel groups to regions they used to run before the ISIS conquest, majority Arab and Turkmen regions, this was entirely different; you can disagree 9there was much to criticise) but the rebels were not acting as mercenaries but in their own interests. In the case of Idlib let me go one better, and it doesn't really matter whether one decides to call Turkey whatever name (imperialist, sub-imperialist, non-imperialist, whatever you like): humanity requires we give TOTAL support to any military action by Turkey, in support of the independent rebel groups there, to resist Assad's genocidal attacks and his regime's complete reconquest of the region. Right now a frightful massacre is taking place. A million more people have fled their homes to escape Assad and Putin, and even as they flee they are bombed in the back, their IDP camps are bombed, countless hospitals and schools are bombed, children are freezing to death, graves are meticulously desecrated, and in this situation we want to argue about "neutrality" and everyone being bad and such bullshit. Of course when I say TOTAL support to Turkey's actions against Assad obviously I am not saying rebels should trust Turkey or subordinate themselves or put much faith in Turkish actions; the reality is that Turkey will do little, caught up as it is in deals with Assad's owners, Russia and Iran. Turkey did nothing to prevent the cities of the revolution falling; we all know why.
