Re: [Marxism] The Gay Architects of Classic Rock
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Why are people trying to re-write LGBT history on this site? It was always apparent that few on this site knew or took the time to learn such. If one does not know it - then learn, or at least do not try to re-write it. And why are music fans only male or that gender only considered important in describing that musical period? And who would state: Gay was not a descriptive term used in the early 1960's. Many Gay people were using this word description to identify themselves then and it was a term used since Medieval Europe time, as an identity term. To state: there were no expressions or known Rock musicians before David Bowie? Well let me state - how wrong that is. Ever hear of Lil Richard, Janis Joplin, etc? And if one does not remember (but I do) of Mick Jaeger stating in his first U. S. press conference in the 1960's, he and the Stones concerns for how 'homosexuals" were being treated by the U. S. government and society. It might have been filtered out by some/many non-Gay people, but it was gladly welcomed by LGBT people and their allies then. And why is Mick Jaeger identified as straight by this Marxist List contributor, when Mick Jaegar has been very clear when asked - and in his own songs, that he has never identified as straight (and Bi)? Do I sense straight privilege and comformity being defended by this attempt to re-write history? Heterosexism on display - but it gets even stranger for a Marxist list in 2017 when one writes (below) - "There was no evidence of anyone being Gay in working class circles". This is both untrue and obvious trying to excuse for one never challenging homophobia or defending LGBT people at that time. I personally am now (and was in the 1950's and 1960's) both Gay and of the working class and open. And I was not the only one and shame to someone denying the existence of Gay and Lesbian workers and those who were active and open in working class and socialist groups and events then. Some as myself were discriminated against, including by so-called socialists, but we were there - and some always open and not hiding their identity. Why the need to deny this? Either learn LGBT history - or at least stop trying to re-write it, to conform to heterosexism and failure to challenge homophobia. It is now 2017 and this just becomes more indefensible historically. Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2017 2:03 PM This article has some resemblance as this one by Alexis Petridis a few years back manager Brian Epstein was gay (not that that term was used then), and there would be snide comments from older people about the 'effeminate' pop stars of the day, with their long hair and, later on, flamboyant clothing. Rumours about Larry Parnes' predatory predilections for handsome young men seeped out, along with the more common stories about his appalling rip-off managerial style; he was popularly known as 'Parnes, Shillings and Pence'. If these tales were true, he really would have been a Der Stürmer stereotype; I can't vouch for their veracity. But the rest of the gay managers were unknown to us. Lambert, Napier-Bell... the average music fan had never heard of them, let alone knew that they were gay. I'd heard of Stigwood, but only recently learnt (via Ginger Baker's autobiography) that he was gay. These guys, along with their sexuality, were behind the scenes. As for the article's conclusion -- 'in an era when gay sexual expression was brutally suppressed, the men were able to express themselves through the most influential sex symbols of the day, creating a kind of erotic ventriloquism' -- that's not how it appeared at the time. Nobody of my generation thought that Mick Jagger was gay, whatever our parents' generation might have thought, or that his image was conjured up by some gay managerial svengali. If anything, we young lads were envious of the way he could get crowds of girls around him; the same went for the other popular music stars of the time. Likewise, I can't recall any openly gay person in the popular music scene at that time. The only man I can think of was Long John Baldry, and he wasn't publicly gay at the time; I don't think he either admitted it or was obliged to deny it publicly, although I suspect that it was known within the business. I can't recall when rumours started being heard that Dusty Springfield was gay, but I don't think it was in the 1960s, when she was first in the public eye. The whole scene appeared to be very straight. It wasn't until the early 1970s with David Bowie did real hints towards being gay, or at least a strong sense of ambiguity, become visible
Re: [Marxism] The Gay Architects of Classic Rock
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * This article has some resemblance as this one by Alexis Petridis a few years back < https://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/feb/28/how-pop-lost-gay-edge >. I grew up in Britain through the 1960s, and it was well known that the Beatles' manager Brian Epstein was gay (not that that term was used then), and there would be snide comments from older people about the 'effeminate' pop stars of the day, with their long hair and, later on, flamboyant clothing. Rumours about Larry Parnes' predatory predilections for handsome young men seeped out, along with the more common stories about his appalling rip-off managerial style; he was popularly known as 'Parnes, Shillings and Pence'. If these tales were true, he really would have been a Der Stürmer stereotype; I can't vouch for their veracity. But the rest of the gay managers were unknown to us. Lambert, Napier-Bell... the average music fan had never heard of them, let alone knew that they were gay. I'd heard of Stigwood, but only recently learnt (via Ginger Baker's autobiography) that he was gay. These guys, along with their sexuality, were behind the scenes. As for the article's conclusion -- 'in an era when gay sexual expression was brutally suppressed, the men were able to express themselves through the most influential sex symbols of the day, creating a kind of erotic ventriloquism' -- that's not how it appeared at the time. Nobody of my generation thought that Mick Jagger was gay, whatever our parents' generation might have thought, or that his image was conjured up by some gay managerial svengali. If anything, we young lads were envious of the way he could get crowds of girls around him; the same went for the other popular music stars of the time. Likewise, I can't recall any openly gay person in the popular music scene at that time. The only man I can think of was Long John Baldry, and he wasn't publicly gay at the time; I don't think he either admitted it or was obliged to deny it publicly, although I suspect that it was known within the business. I can't recall when rumours started being heard that Dusty Springfield was gay, but I don't think it was in the 1960s, when she was first in the public eye. The whole scene appeared to be very straight. It wasn't until the early 1970s with David Bowie did real hints towards being gay, or at least a strong sense of ambiguity, become visible in the popular music world. It was different in the world of the theatre, including musical theatre, and to a lesser degree cinema, where gay men, often with little attempt at disguising their gayness, were fairly common. It's a paradoxical thing that drag acts and camp comedians were popular for decades in working-class entertainment at a time when there was no apparent evidence of anyone being gay in working-class circles. But that was an entirely different scene, nothing to do with the popular music scene, even though their songs would sometimes jostle for position in the 'hit parade' with songs by performers of our generation. Paul F _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Gay Architects of Classic Rock
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 10/19/17 2:32 PM, Anthony Boynton via Marxism wrote: Classic rock in the USA, and the entire music business almost certainly had many, many LGBT people in it, but given the repressive conditions of the McCarthy era witch-hunts, nobody came out of the closet at the time, and very few came out later. One of the most interesting figures was Johnny Ray who I was reminded of when a good friend told me that his younger brother, who was my age and who just died after a long battle with cancer, was a huge Johnny Ray fan as was I when I was about 10 years old. I have vivid memories of going to NYC with my mom in 1955 to see the Rockettes do their famous Christmas show when she spotted Johnny Ray in a limousine near Radio City Music Hall surrounded by what they called bobby-soxers. She walked me up to his car and held me up so I could see Johnny. Tony Bennett called him "the father of rock and roll". Like Elvis, who is regarded as following in his footsteps, he was white but obviously influenced by Black R artists such as LaVern Baker and Ivory Joe Hunter. His career started out in Oregon, where he was born, but he relocated to Detroit when the city was thriving economically. The online Oregon Encyclopedia states: "He got his big break at the Flame Show Bar, a black nightclub in Detroit, where he said he developed his distinctive emotional and physical style of performing. He would roam freely across the stage, tear at his hair, wave his sinewy arms, rip down curtains, fall to the floor, contort his face, and let the tears flow. His phrasing was brilliant, and his lyrics were infused with passion and a sense of urgency." Wikipedia reports on the persecution of Johnny Ray as a gay man: In 1951, prior to Ray's fame, he was arrested in Detroit for accosting and soliciting an undercover vice squad police officer for sex in the restroom of the Stone Theatre, a burlesque house.[8] When he appeared in court, he pleaded guilty to the charges, paid a fine, and was released.[34] Due to his obscurity at the time, Detroit newspapers did not report the story.[8] After his rise to fame the following year, rumors about his sexuality began to spread as a result of the incident.[8] Despite her knowledge of the solicitation arrest, Marilyn Morrison, daughter of the owner of West Hollywood's Mocambo nightclub, married Ray at the peak of his American fame.[35] The wedding ceremony took place in New York a short time after he gave his first New York concert, which was at the Copacabana.[36] The New York Daily News made the wedding its cover story for May 26, 1952, and it reported that guests included Mayor Vincent R. Impellitteri.[37] Aware of Ray's sexuality, Morrison told a friend she would "straighten it out."[34] The couple separated in 1953 and divorced in 1954.[38][39] Several writers have noted that the Ray-Morrison marriage occurred under false pretenses,[40] and that Ray had had a long-term relationship with his manager, Bill Franklin.[8][34] However, a biography of Ray points out that Franklin was 13 years younger than Ray and that both their personal and business relationships began in 1963, many years after the Ray-Morrison divorce.[8] In a 1953 newspaper interview with James Bacon, Ray blamed rumors about his sexuality for the breakup of his marriage to Morrison.[41] In 1959, Ray was arrested again in Detroit for soliciting an undercover officer at the Brass Rail, a bar that was described many years later by one biographer as a haven for musicians[8] and by another biographer as a gay bar.[8] Ray went to trial following this second arrest and was found not guilty.[34] Two years after his death, several friends shared with biographer Jonny Whiteside their knowledge that Ray was homosexual.[b] Here is a trademark Johnny Ray performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIxl_ISz1Ag _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] The Gay Architects of Classic Rock
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Steve Hereen makes one good point about classic rock: it started in the late 1940's as jump blues in the United States and became rock n' roll when Alan Freed renamed it, BUT we still do not know how many of the early stars and the people behind the scene were gay. Little Richard certainly was gay, and there has always been a lot of speculation about the king himself https://gcn.ie/elvis-presley-gay/ Classic rock in the USA, and the entire music business almost certainly had many, many LGBT people in it, but given the repressive conditions of the McCarthy era witch-hunts, nobody came out of the closet at the time, and very few came out later. Anthony _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Gay Architects of Classic Rock
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 10/19/17 1:46 PM, John Obrien via Marxism wrote: Besides the NY Times never being inclusive about LGBT history in the past, that publication provides the views and interests of the bourgeoisie, so no surprise this article was written without working class context or especially of recognizing the roots of Rock N' Roll were based in the U. S. African American people who developed The Blues. 10 fucking years on this listserv and nothing but complaints. You are seriously disturbed. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Gay Architects of Classic Rock
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * By coincidence LARB just published an interview with Billy Bragg on his new book which looks at the intertwining of British folk, Black blues, Appalachian folk, rock and roll etc. etc. How Skiffle Changed the World: A Conversation with Billy Bragg https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/how-skiffle-changed- the-world-a-conversation-with-billy-bragg/ _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Gay Architects of Classic Rock
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * For some reason, this NY Times article " bothered" someone on this list, "to share their concern" about music history. Besides the NY Times never being inclusive about LGBT history in the past, that publication provides the views and interests of the bourgeoisie, so no surprise this article was written without working class context or especially of recognizing the roots of Rock N' Roll were based in the U. S. African American people who developed The Blues. There is an obvious lack of awareness by the person who "shared their concern", on both the history of musical artists in the U. S. and particularly the Blues, who were Gay and Lesbian. Alan Freed and Elvis Presley are not the origins of Rock music and like many cultural fields - many are not straight white males, either in performing, or creating in many ways. This is seriously misleading. It should have been entitled: The Gay Architects of Classic Rock in the UK. In the US "classic rock" refers, if anything, to the rock'n'roll which became popular in the early 1950s---composed and performed by black and white artists. And the linchpin of a lot of it, Sam Phillips, was not gay AFAIK. And even though homosexual relations were illegal in the UK it was in the US that homophobia more deeply gripped (still grips?) the public mind. That would be an interesting topic to research as it relates to the "classic rock" in america. Alan Freed gay? I doubt it. -- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fantivirus=02%7C01%7Ccausecollector%40msn.com%7C1ad047f397244ca6630b08d51714c7d6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636440300371382058=wgZheG4fcNfVth7T1dVfJyN2bZ6WtlBbDT9CxqcMg8c%3D=0 _ Full posting guidelines at: https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.marxmail.org%2Fsub.htm=02%7C01%7Ccausecollector%40msn.com%7C1ad047f397244ca6630b08d51714c7d6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636440300371382058=ObL%2Bc4SNIKtWeVM7bRVnQWMn6E4qtR7MthUO8tMN3gg%3D=0 Set your options at: https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.csbs.utah.edu%2Foptions%2Fmarxism%2Fcausecollector%2540msn.com=02%7C01%7Ccausecollector%40msn.com%7C1ad047f397244ca6630b08d51714c7d6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636440300371382058=hHaHSMHDROiVAo0AurajtVsISh2vbIizwvz7ugal0yE%3D=0 _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] The Gay Architects of Classic Rock
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * This is seriously misleading. It should have been entitled: The Gay Architects of Classic Rock in the UK. In the US "classic rock" refers, if anything, to the rock'n'roll which became popular in the early 1950s---composed and performed by black and white artists. And the linchpin of a lot of it, Sam Phillips, was not gay AFAIK. And even though homosexual relations were illegal in the UK it was in the US that homophobia more deeply gripped (still grips?) the public mind. That would be an interesting topic to research as it relates to the "classic rock" in america. Alan Freed gay? I doubt it. -- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] The Gay Architects of Classic Rock
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * NY Times, Oct. 19 2017 The Gay Architects of Classic Rock By JIM FARBER One of the 20th century’s most powerful creations was the rock star: the preening, erotic god of guitar-fired defiance. But those who embodied that character didn’t spring from nowhere. Managers groomed them and shaped them, and in the classic rock era those managers were often gay men. For decades, the close relationships between the managers and the predominantly straight musicians they advised were not discussed much. Lately, however, they have become a point of pride and celebration. “The Fifth Beatle,” a recent graphic novel that focuses on the personal life of the Fab Four’s gay manager, Brian Epstein, was a New York Times best seller and is now in development as a six-part mini-series, with the approval of the Beatles’ estate. And the documentary film “Lambert & Stamp” made clear the important role played by Kit Lambert, the gay co-manager of the Who, in shaping the band’s identity. Another image maker of the classic-rock era, Jann Wenner, the co-founder of Rolling Stone, is the subject of a new biography by Joe Hagan, “Sticky Fingers: The Life and Times of Jann Wenner and Rolling Stone Magazine,” which stresses the role his sexuality played in his presentations of male rock stars throughout the magazine’s history. (Mr. Wenner did not come out to the press until the mid-1990s). “Being gay gave me a finer appreciation of the sexuality of the guys up there,” Mr. Wenner says in the book. “I could understand that in a way others didn’t.” That understanding played out in memorable Rolling Stone images like David Cassidy showing off his naked torso down to his pubic hair, in a Playboy-style centerfold, and Jim Morrison smoldering next to the cover line “He’s Hot, He’s Sexy, He’s Dead.” Jock McLean, who worked as an assistant to George Harrison 50 years ago, noticed the depth of the relationship between the Beatles and Mr. Epstein one August day not long before the manager’s death. Mr. McLean’s job was to pick up the singer-songwriter Harry Nilsson, a promising new artist in those days, and drive him to a meeting with Mr. Harrison at the house he was renting on Blue Jay Way in the Hollywood Hills, Calif. There was talk of Mr. Nilsson perhaps joining the Beatles’ nascent company. That’s when things went sour, Mr. McLean said. “George was talking about how wonderful the whole thing was going to be, trying to convince Harry to join the company,” Mr. McLean recalled. “It was all great until Harry said, ‘The only thing is, I don’t think I could be managed by a gay man.’” (Mr. Epstein’s sexuality was known by many in the industry at the time.) Incensed, Mr. Harrison gave his assistant a nod. “In a heartbeat, Harry was out of the house,” Mr. McLean said. “George, like all the Beatles, was extremely supportive of Brian. To them, Brian was the man.” (After Mr. Epstein died, Mr. Nilsson had a rapprochement with the band and worked closely with John Lennon.) Roger Daltrey, the lead singer of the Who, had a similar respect for Mr. Lambert, who had an upper-class background at a time when those of his tier rarely interacted with working-class ruffians like Mr. Daltrey. “Kit was the only ‘posh’ guy I ever met who wouldn’t talk down to me,” Mr. Daltrey said in “Lambert & Stamp.” “Kit had this fearless quality.” At the time, men like Mr. Lambert had to. Up until 1967, being gay was illegal in Britain, and long after that law changed, gay men remained a target of police entrapment, blackmail and beatings. Mr. Epstein was assaulted and was the target of blackmail before he died in 1967 from an accidental overdose of sleeping pills and alcohol. At the same time, many of these men had great power within their circle. As managers of some of the era’s most potent British rock bands, they stood at the forefront of sounds, sensibilities and styles that would demolish and remake pop culture. The gay managers of that era were forthright about their sexuality, if only among friends and colleagues. Besides Mr. Epstein and Mr. Lambert, those men included Robert Stigwood (manager of Cream and the Bee Gees), Simon Napier-Bell (the Yardbirds, Marc Bolan), Billy Gaff (Rod Stewart), Ken Pitt (David Bowie), Barry Krost (Cat Stevens) and Larry Parnes (who molded pre-Beatles British rockers, including Tommy Steele and Billy Fury). Their sexual orientation was mirrored by Americans including Nat Weiss (who oversaw the Beatles’ business interests and later managed James Taylor), Danny Fields (who managed Iggy Pop and the Stooges and, later, the Ramones), as well as music
