Re: [Marxism] Trans Ideology

[Daniel Lindvall via Marxism]

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”A transgender woman has spoken of the ”hell on earth" she suffered after being 
raped and abused more than 2,000 times in an all-male prison. The woman, known 
only by her pseudonym, Mary, was imprisoned for four years after stealing a 
car."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/transgender-woman-raped-2000-times-male-prison-a6989366.html?fbclid=IwAR3GcXgjjP-pxcTwioRtDQUhZBFwEY1t6DxunDGL-jmDyCoL6mPLz5gOIUA


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> 26 nov. 2018 kl. 15:58 skrev Tristan Sloughter via Marxism 
> :
> 
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> 
>> Philip F.’s piece is a praiseworthy attempt to reject a false identity 
>> politics substitute for class politics. 
> 
> What in any of this piece is about identity politics?
> 
> And what part explains how there is any relation for the worse to class 
> politics?
> 
> This is a disgusting piece that attempts to act like it is science while 
> mixing in insults and fearmongering you find on Fox News, "a gift to 
> predatory males".
> 
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Re: [Marxism] Trans Ideology

[Tristan Sloughter via Marxism]

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> Philip F.’s piece is a praiseworthy attempt to reject a false identity 
> politics substitute for class politics. 

What in any of this piece is about identity politics?

And what part explains how there is any relation for the worse to class 
politics?

This is a disgusting piece that attempts to act like it is science while mixing 
in insults and fearmongering you find on Fox News, "a gift to predatory males".

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Re: [Marxism] Trans Ideology

[MM via Marxism]

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> On Nov 26, 2018, at 6:34 AM, C. G. Estabrook  wrote:
> 
> Philip F.’s piece is a praiseworthy attempt to reject a false identity 
> politics substitute for class politics. 

Defending class politics over identity politics is a laudible and necessary 
undertaking; doing so in relation to gender and sexuality is inevitably 
fraught, especially when so many people are so profoundly disenfranchised, 
exploited and oppressed, and thus may be expected to rely more heavily on 
identity categories to provide at least some sense of orientation and 
stability. This piece makes no serious or good-faith attempt at articulating 
the relationship between sexuality and gender, and mis-uses scientific data by 
invoking a statistical regularity as carrying normative weight in resolving 
complex social and political questions. Far from being a “praiseworthy attempt” 
at an important task, it is an abysmal and lamentable failure — a vivid example 
of the reactionary abuse of science, whether intended or not.
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Re: [Marxism] Trans Ideology

[C. G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Philip F.’s piece is a praiseworthy attempt to reject a false identity politics 
substitute for class politics. 

> On Nov 25, 2018, at 11:57 PM, MM via Marxism  
> wrote:
> 
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> 
>> On Nov 25, 2018, at 3:10 PM, Praxis Perhaps via Marxism 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> What a reactionary piece!  What ever possessed you to post such a thing!
> 
> I’d like to echo Praxis Perhaps’ sentiment, and reiterate this question. I 
> recognize that anything touching on gender or sexuality can be a prickly 
> subject, and that we may have to grapple with uncomfortable questions in 
> order to accommodate the full range of consensual human self-expression, but 
> I’d also like to hear from Philip F. why he thought this vile, fear-baiting, 
> reactionary diatribe deserved to be shared to the list without any critical 
> introductory comment — or even why anyone might consider it to be any part of 
> left discourse at all.
> 
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Re: [Marxism] Trans Ideology

[MM via Marxism]

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> On Nov 26, 2018, at 12:57 AM, MM  wrote:
> 
>> On Nov 25, 2018, at 3:10 PM, Praxis Perhaps via Marxism 
>> mailto:marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>> wrote:
>> 
>> What a reactionary piece!  What ever possessed you to post such a thing!
> 
> I’d like to echo Praxis Perhaps’ sentiment, and reiterate this question. I 
> recognize that anything touching on gender or sexuality can be a prickly 
> subject, and that we may have to grapple with uncomfortable questions in 
> order to accommodate the full range of consensual human self-expression, but 
> I’d also like to hear from Philip F. why he thought this vile, fear-baiting, 
> reactionary diatribe deserved to be shared to the list without any critical 
> introductory comment — or even why anyone might consider it to be any part of 
> left discourse at all.

Philip F. has sent a response off-list that reflects a complete failure to 
engage with the critiques and clarifications that have been offered so far. 
Hopefully he’ll eventually gather his thoughts sufficiently to formulate a 
defense that he’s prepared to offer up before the critical glare of the full 
list. Absent that, this seems to be shaping up as one of those awful, 
cringeworthy moments in the history of the left, in which otherwise basically 
decent people end up defending horrifically ill-considered positions, for 
reasons that may remain forever obscure.
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Re: [Marxism] Trans Ideology

[MM via Marxism]

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> On Nov 25, 2018, at 3:10 PM, Praxis Perhaps via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> What a reactionary piece!  What ever possessed you to post such a thing!

I’d like to echo Praxis Perhaps’ sentiment, and reiterate this question. I 
recognize that anything touching on gender or sexuality can be a prickly 
subject, and that we may have to grapple with uncomfortable questions in order 
to accommodate the full range of consensual human self-expression, but I’d also 
like to hear from Philip F. why he thought this vile, fear-baiting, reactionary 
diatribe deserved to be shared to the list without any critical introductory 
comment — or even why anyone might consider it to be any part of left discourse 
at all.

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Re: [Marxism] Trans Ideology

[Praxis Perhaps via Marxism]

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What a reactionary piece!  What ever possessed you to post such a thing!



> On Nov 25, 2018, at 2:00 PM, marxism-requ...@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:
> 
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 18:24:26 +1300
> From: Philip Ferguson  <mailto:philipfergus...@gmail.com>>
> To: marx...@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu 
> <mailto:marx...@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu>
> Subject: [Marxism] Trans ideology
> Message-ID:
><mailto:CABNfe0ACSwZB8qJgEWFZo05FiQNtkb0Y=mwraex2kthcj0g...@mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> Science is under attack as universities, workplaces and governments are
> drawing up policies and laws to codify a fiction that makes creationism
> look sensible. We are suppose to believe that trans women are women,
> lesbians can have penises, and biological sex is a social construct. The
> idea that a man can literally be transformed into a woman, and a woman can
> be a man, has gained ground over the past decade.
> 
> Parliament is considering a law that would enable anyone to change their
> sex on their birth certificate by simply filling out a form. A similar
> bill, the Gender Recognition Act, is being promoted in the UK by the
> Conservative government.
> 
> This self ID process is supposed to ease the suffering of people with
> severe body dysphoria. This is a rare condition in which a person is
> tormented by the belief that he or she was born in the wrong body. However
> the majority of trans women activists do not have body dysphoria and do not
> want any medical or surgical procedures. The majority are hanging on to
> their penises and are aggressively demanding rights that impact on women. .
> .
> 
> full at: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2018/11/25/trans-ideology-is-bollocks/ 
> <https://rdln.wordpress.com/2018/11/25/trans-ideology-is-bollocks/>
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Re: [Marxism] Trans ideology

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 11/25/18 8:41 AM, Jim Farmelant via Marxism wrote:

I would hardly be surprised to see attacks on transgender people from the right. That 
sort of thing is only to be expected from people who are committed to the existence of 
rigid hierarchies that are alleged to  be "natural." But I am astounded when I 
see the same sort of thing coming from people who identify as leftists, and even 
Marxists. And I have seen more than a few Marxists, including some quite prominent 
figures do just that.


Here's an indication of who is opposed to transgender rights:

https://www.themilitant.com/2016/8022/802253.html


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Re: [Marxism] Trans ideology

[Jim Farmelant via Marxism]

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I would hardly be surprised to see attacks on transgender people from the 
right. That sort of thing is only to be expected from people who are committed 
to the existence of rigid hierarchies that are alleged to  be "natural." But I 
am astounded when I see the same sort of thing coming from people who identify 
as leftists, and even Marxists. And I have seen more than a few Marxists, 
including some quite prominent figures do just that.


Jim Farmelant
http://independent.academia.edu/JimFarmelant
http://www.foxymath.com 
Learn or Review Basic Math


-- Original Message --
From: Stuart Munckton via Marxism 
To: Jim Farmelant 
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Trans ideology
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 17:14:33 +1100

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"We are suppose to believe that trans women are women,
lesbians can have penises, and biological sex is a social construct. "

The claim is *gender* is a social construct, not biological sex. Hence the
term is transgender, not and transexual.

On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 16:25, Philip Ferguson via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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>
> Science is under attack as universities, workplaces and governments are
> drawing up policies and laws to codify a fiction that makes creationism
> look sensible. We are suppose to believe that trans women are women,
> lesbians can have penises, and biological sex is a social construct. The
> idea that a man can literally be transformed into a woman, and a woman can
> be a man, has gained ground over the past decade.
>
> Parliament is considering a law that would enable anyone to change their
> sex on their birth certificate by simply filling out a form. A similar
> bill, the Gender Recognition Act, is being promoted in the UK by the
> Conservative government.
>
> This self ID process is supposed to ease the suffering of people with
> severe body dysphoria. This is a rare condition in which a person is
> tormented by the belief that he or she was born in the wrong body. However
> the majority of trans women activists do not have body dysphoria and do not
> want any medical or surgical procedures. The majority are hanging on to
> their penises and are aggressively demanding rights that impact on women. .
> .
>
> full at: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2018/11/25/trans-ideology-is-bollocks/
> _
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> Set your options at:
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Re: [Marxism] Trans ideology

[Daniel Lindvall via Marxism]

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Furthermore, even biological sex is a lot more complex than the kind of frankly 
vulgar diatribe below allows for. And there is much we don’t yet understand 
even as we learn more all the time. That is the pro-scientific perspective.

”The primary assumption driving most “biological sex” myths is that there are 
two discrete mutually exclusive sexes… While there are a number of sexually 
dimorphic traits — such as chromosomes, gonads, external genitals, other 
reproductive organs, ratio of sex hormones, and secondary sex characteristics — 
many times these traits do not all align (i.e., all male, or all female) within 
the same person, as is the case for intersex and many transgender people.”

https://medium.com/@juliaserano/debunking-trans-women-are-not-women-arguments-85fd5ab0e19c

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> 25 nov. 2018 kl. 07:14 skrev Stuart Munckton via Marxism 
> :
> 
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> 
> "We are suppose to believe that trans women are women,
> lesbians can have penises, and biological sex is a social construct. "
> 
> The claim is *gender* is a social construct, not biological sex. Hence the
> term is transgender, not and transexual.
> 
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 16:25, Philip Ferguson via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
> 
>> **
>> 
>> Science is under attack as universities, workplaces and governments are
>> drawing up policies and laws to codify a fiction that makes creationism
>> look sensible. We are suppose to believe that trans women are women,
>> lesbians can have penises, and biological sex is a social construct. 

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Re: [Marxism] Trans ideology

[Stuart Munckton via Marxism]

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"We are suppose to believe that trans women are women,
lesbians can have penises, and biological sex is a social construct. "

The claim is *gender* is a social construct, not biological sex. Hence the
term is transgender, not and transexual.

On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 16:25, Philip Ferguson via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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>
> Science is under attack as universities, workplaces and governments are
> drawing up policies and laws to codify a fiction that makes creationism
> look sensible. We are suppose to believe that trans women are women,
> lesbians can have penises, and biological sex is a social construct. The
> idea that a man can literally be transformed into a woman, and a woman can
> be a man, has gained ground over the past decade.
>
> Parliament is considering a law that would enable anyone to change their
> sex on their birth certificate by simply filling out a form. A similar
> bill, the Gender Recognition Act, is being promoted in the UK by the
> Conservative government.
>
> This self ID process is supposed to ease the suffering of people with
> severe body dysphoria. This is a rare condition in which a person is
> tormented by the belief that he or she was born in the wrong body. However
> the majority of trans women activists do not have body dysphoria and do not
> want any medical or surgical procedures. The majority are hanging on to
> their penises and are aggressively demanding rights that impact on women. .
> .
>
> full at: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2018/11/25/trans-ideology-is-bollocks/
> _
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[Marxism] Trans ideology

[Philip Ferguson via Marxism]

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Science is under attack as universities, workplaces and governments are
drawing up policies and laws to codify a fiction that makes creationism
look sensible. We are suppose to believe that trans women are women,
lesbians can have penises, and biological sex is a social construct. The
idea that a man can literally be transformed into a woman, and a woman can
be a man, has gained ground over the past decade.

Parliament is considering a law that would enable anyone to change their
sex on their birth certificate by simply filling out a form. A similar
bill, the Gender Recognition Act, is being promoted in the UK by the
Conservative government.

This self ID process is supposed to ease the suffering of people with
severe body dysphoria. This is a rare condition in which a person is
tormented by the belief that he or she was born in the wrong body. However
the majority of trans women activists do not have body dysphoria and do not
want any medical or surgical procedures. The majority are hanging on to
their penises and are aggressively demanding rights that impact on women. .
.

full at: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2018/11/25/trans-ideology-is-bollocks/
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