Re: M-TH: Whither the Family
Simon wrote (before the discussion was side-lined slightly): In general, the family is communal living which is resistant to mass production, a bit like reproducing labour in a series of small factory lots rather than one big factory. But if by mass production you are trying to indicate that an non-family method of housework could be provided within capitalism which generate surplus value or was productive labour, then I do not think that is possible. Although some capitalists may put some domestic workers to work capitalistically (while also carrying out their own domestic toil) this merely results in money being circulated not surplus value being created. This process will always be limited as domestic work cannot be socialised under capitalism. Domestic work is part of private production and falls outside the realm of social production. On top of this as capital comes to rely on women and children to entering the labour market so surplus value increase as well as the rate of exploitation. But this brings about a fall in the rate of profit and hence leads to a capitalist crisis resulting in an increase in the reserve army of labour and women are rapidly and easily thrown back into domestic drudgery. Hence the stuggle for women's liberation, and the abolition of the family as an economic unit, will always be united with the struggle against capitalism. 'nough said, John --- from list [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---
Re: M-TH: Fwd: Investigations belie NATO's genocide claims
Iinternational Committee for a Fourth International (ICFI), A Trotskyist group that is dedicated to web work almost exclusively. The site has been up for years, don't get so hot headed about it. Macdonald From: "THE WORLD SOCIALIST MOVEMENT(via THE SOCIALIST PARTY of Great Britain)" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: M-TH: Fwd: Investigations belie NATO's "genocide" claims Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 16:57:09 PST -- World Socialist Web Site www.wsws.org Investigations belie NATO claims of "ethnic genocide" in Kosovo By Chris Marsden and Barry Grey 9 November 1999 Main Text Body Copyright 1998-99 World Socialist Web Site All rights reserved Who is putting themselves out as the World Socialist web site? Any ideas? I mean, we must at least have a right to reply or something... I mean, if I set up a stall on a fruit market, named the same as my competitor, but selling plastic fruit instead of real fruit, I would be hauled before the courts! If you're in touch with them, can yuou arrange a debate over the issue or something? Or at least give us their organisation's name and address? Simon (member of the World Socialist Movement) Messages from [EMAIL PROTECTED] which are not signed by the General Secretary or a responsible member of a party department or committee are not to be regarded as official communications from the Socialist party of Great Britain --- from list [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --- from list [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---
M-TH: Fw: Defining Politics
From: "Charles F. Moreira" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Undisclosed-Recipient:@relay14.jaring.my; Subject: [Cuba SI] Fw: "Defining Politics" Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:38:49 +0800 Oooh! Good One! Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 10:22 PM Subject: FW: "Defining Politics" A small boy asks his Dad, What is politics?" Dad says, "Well son, let me try to explain it this way: I'm the breadwinner of the family, so let's call me Capitalism. Your Mom, she's the administrator of the money, so we'll call her the Government. We're here to take care of your needs, so we'll call you the People. The nanny, we'll consider her the Working Class. And your baby brother, we'll call him the Future. Now, think about that and see if that makes sense." So the little boy goes off to bed thinking about what his Dad has said. Later that night, he hears his baby brother crying, so he gets up to check on him. He finds that the baby has severely soiled his diaper. So the little boy goes to his parents' room and finds his mother sound asleep. Not wanting to wake her, he goes to the nanny's room. Finding the door locked, he peeks in the keyhole and sees his father in bed with the nanny. He gives up and goes back to bed. The next morning, the little boy says to his father, "Dad, I think I understand the concept of politics now." The father says, "Good, son, tell me in your own words what you think politics is all about". The little boy replies, "Well, while Capitalism is screwing the Working Class, the Government is sound asleep, the People are being ignored and the Future is in Deep Shit." __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com winmail.dat
SV: M-TH: Chechnya - the revolutionary answer
Well I am hardly with Dave or Chris on this stuff. Positive to self determination but defeatist between Moscow and the Islamic Fundamentalists. However Rob raises and interesting question in that the west who have "supported" Yeltsin in lack of anything else now are faced with a real dilema. And the main imperialist powers (especially Germany and the US) might find themselves in and escalating rivalry over this stuff. Bob - Original Message - From: Rob Schaap [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 2:53 PM Subject: Re: M-TH: Chechnya - the revolutionary answer G'day Chris'n'Dave, I'm with Chris on Chechnya (well, we were due an agreement, I reckon - and I don't see how threatening to withold funds that only ever find their way into aparatchik/mob/financier pockets is gonna hurt too many), but leaving the little matter of murder on a grand scale aside for a minute, there's some value to be had in anything that drives a wedge between Boris'n'Bill and/or exacerbates the distance between Boris and his plentiful opponents as early as possible (one can only surmise how another year or two of corruption, mass suffering and bereavement might lift the Russian far right's stocks - anyone know anything about this Barazov character?). With great chunks of Eastern Europe evincing a left-turn, the time might be right to have a contest for the Kremlin about now. Another embarrassment for Yeltsin might be just the ticket, I reckon. His administration (never mind the old bastard hisself) has gotta be living on borrowed time, no? A western-inspired Russian retreat saves lives now and might just give the Russian left the leg-up it needs in potentially auspicious times. Or am I speculating above and beyond the call of reason? Cheers, Rob. --- from list [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- --- from list [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---
Re: M-TH: Whither the Family
I think I agree with much of the thrust of the posts by John and Simon. If I understand them correctly they are both criticising the social and psychological effects of capitalism. I think this is a very important area of criticism of late capitalist society, and is essential for the battle for ideological hegemony of socialist ideas. However I have differences with the precise wording of the distinctions they make and would like to discuss this more. It is an area that Marx did not illuminate particularly strongly as his interests lay elsewhere. Domestic work is part of private production and falls outside the realm of social production. To be consistent with Marx's terminology I would not say "private production" here. I would say "outside the realm of commodity production". This BTW is not completely true. Capitalism has been able to produce commodities that save on domestic labour, like vacuums and washing machines. Companies may sell as a commodity the service of visiting your home and power-cleaning the carpets. Domestic servants may hire themselves for a few hours a week. Human beings meet many needs for each other. This is all part of the "social life process" of our species. Only a subset of these activities are organised through commodity exchange, and only a subset of this subset are organised for the production of surplus value by capital. Nevertheless the incessant drive for capitalist accumulation means that this compartment constantly eats into the quality of the other life processes with damaging effects, even at the same time as it produces an over-abundance of consumer durables. Nor do I think the distinction is quite that capitalism deals with material reality and human intercourse deals with sentiment. The majority of commodities meet needs of the imagination, especially now as the social surplus rises. Growth areas are in "quality" products that somehow have associated with them the smell of social richness that capitalism actually destroys. Designer labels give a sense of community with those to whom you wish to belong. Electronic gadgets create groups across the internet. Massive expansion of air tourism pollutes the atmosphere and carries people to idyllic settings which they do not enter with any organic relationship, but merely photograph for their cosy social charm and leave, without any understanding of the contradictions which their hosts have to work through to make their own social life process coherent. No the distinction is not that capitalism is about the material, and socialists are about the spiritual. The critique of what capitalism does to the spiritual/social, needs to grasp the essence of how commodity production under capitalism eats like a cancer into all other compartments of an organic "social life process". Chris Burford London --- from list [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---
