Re: M-TH: No Hugh Rasputin!
Here is Bob ">Well the problem is that people have not learned from history and that is why we are in the position we find ourselves today." >"Wailing about changing the human brain just won't do it.." What is "learning from history" if it is not "changing the human brain" Bob? But perhaps you only meant you were not wailing. > "I also note that many of our intellectuals today want to drag Marx Lenin and Trotsky down with the same boat as Stalin. Well, Stalin and Stalinism are responsible for what has happened and it hardly has anything to do with the first three.And unlike our petty bourgeos intellectuals who have arrived at what we call in Sweden the "du" stage we and workers should be proud of our past leaders..." Hmm. Sounds like "idealism" to me Bob, or the theory that history depends on inidividuals. > ">By the way it is interesting that Stalin worshipping seems to be coming back in certain parts of the ex SU and east block countries. But hardly as in the past. Today the cry is "It was better in the old days" and they are absolutely correct despite the Stalinists! Just replace the picture of Stalin with a hotdog...And a whole lot of social gains that held up thie bureaucracy and you got it.." > I agree that Russia under Stalin was probably better in some respects than Russia today, but it was clearly worse in respect of state terror (though gangster terrorism is closing the gap), but I think we have different reasons for this. I think that Russia under Stalin was a failed attempt at socialism (utopian socialism, in fact) but it had a lot of advantages because there was an attempt at Socialism. Bob probably has a different view. "Meaning concretely that the basic fundamentals of the working class being the only social force capable of doing the job is left behind for all kinds of utopian garbage and even more important multi class formations!" I agree that the working class is the only force that can get the job done (but this is what makes Hugh suspect me of Russian anarchism - but then Hugh did not notice that I was not rejecting military authority systems outright, but only as an absolute principle of party organisation). But it will not get the job done sponataneously and it won;'t get the job done because of the leadership of the ICL (or most other groups I can think of). I am not in principle opposed to "multi-class formations" any more than I am opposed absolutely to parties that, at the right and necessary moment, organise along miitary or quasi military lines. But if the ICL is doing that, it is definitely not the right time. > ">Revolutions dn't just happen they are made by classes and not intellecxtuals doing a seperating the mind from the body circle jerk! Maybe Hugh's makes the wrong comparison. How bout Rasputin Hugh? He was in to a lot of heady stuff." Silly abuse. The sort of "heady stuff" you complain of. This sort of posturing is a real drag on working class organisation. Workers have no confidence in loud-mouths. > >Buy the way the school principle yesterday announced at a mass gathering >of students that Bob will be employed another year at school. This only >after being confronted with all the students threatening a strike or riot >in school on Friday which would have been my last day.. Two minutes later >in my office she screamed at me. "Bob, we don't like having a gun pointed >at our heads!" > >Now this is not "communism" ala Mezaro. But the kids did take a great step >showing there social power against a horde of bureaucrats and politicians >who are constantly trying to screw them. But this is only one small battle >and not winning the war. >And it will take a vanguard party at the head of the working class to win >the war. > >This is also linked to a wave of mass student strikes that have broken out >this week up here in the north with the attempts to fire all kurators, >school nurses and school phycologists. Interestingly enough it happens to >be people claiming to be "Trotskyists" that are being blamed for all this >stuff. However not the ICL unfortunately. > Glad to hear of it Bob. > > > > > > > --- from list [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Associate Professor Ian Hunt, Head, Dept of Philosophy, Director, Centre for Applied Philosophy, Philosophy Dept, School of Humanities, Flinders University of SA, Humanities Building, Bedford Park, SA, 5042, Ph: (08) 8201 2054 Fax: (08) 8201 2556 --- from list [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---
M-TH: No Hugh Rasputin!
Ian blurps out! Reminding everybody that he defends this utopian bullshit of Mezaro which is completely outside of history and class struggle that appears to be trendy in certain parts of the left today. And I agree with Hugh that this is not new but based in early Russian anarchism. Allbut I tend to lean towards them being followers of Rasputin! Just a modern supermarket presentation... > The past is valuable regardless of allegiances. Mistakes are valuable if we > learn from them. What I was referring to is some of the more totemistic, > charismatic styles of thinking and writing that socialist movements have > been plagued with, which Meszaros' article is blissfully free of. > Trotskyist groups, for example (and only an example), are a source of lots > of ideas and experiences (I don't know whether you could speak of great > "successes" -eg, Mandel's writings, value-form school) but some of them > (here Sparticists come quickly to mind) operate as though they were some > sort of secular religion. We can do without worship (or vilification) of > Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Mao, etc. Well the problem is that people have not learned from history and that is why we are in the position we find ourselves today. And there is a bit of the "totemistic" in all of us note we all claim to subscribe to Marx and his thinking. But the real problem comes when we come to those who put Marxism to work in living reality. And the ICL certainly is not religous but defends the politics and program of Trotsky which they believe is the only way out of the mire. You my friend will sooner or later have to produce a program, tactics, history and ideology that can be proved supierior. Wailing about changing the human brain just won't do it.. I also note that many of our intellectuals today want to drag Marx Lenin and Trotsky down with the same boat as Stalin. Well, Stalin and Stalinism are responsible for what has happened and it hardly has anything to do with the first three.And unlike our petty bourgeos intellectuals who have arrived at what we call in Sweden the "du" stage we and workers should be proud of our past leaders... By the way it is interesting that Stalin worshipping seems to be coming back in certain parts of the ex SU and east block countries. But hardly as in the past. Today the cry is "It was better in the old days" and they are absolutely correct despite the Stalinists! Just replace the picture of Stalin with a hotdog...And a whole lot of social gains that held up thie bureaucracy and you got it.. I see not only the utopian petty bourgois frenxy of "hope" (almost religous by the way) as they head into outer space but deep down inside their despair and woe is me crap..In fact many intellectuals whom followed Stalin had the same position that the dirty working class ain't shit compared to the Stalinist bureaucracy. Meaning concretely that the basic fundamentals of the working class being the only social force capable of doing the job is left behind for all kinds of utopian garbage and even more important multi class formations! Revolutions dn't just happen they are made by classes and not intellecxtuals doing a seperating the mind from the body circle jerk! Maybe Hugh's makes the wrong comparison. How bout Rasputin Hugh? He was in to a lot of heady stuff. Buy the way the school principle yesterday announced at a mass gathering of students that Bob will be employed another year at school. This only after being confronted with all the students threatening a strike or riot in school on Friday which would have been my last day.. Two minutes later in my office she screamed at me. "Bob, we don't like having a gun pointed at our heads!" Now this is not "communism" ala Mezaro. But the kids did take a great step showing there social power against a horde of bureaucrats and politicians who are constantly trying to screw them. But this is only one small battle and not winning the war. And it will take a vanguard party at the head of the working class to win the war. This is also linked to a wave of mass student strikes that have broken out this week up here in the north with the attempts to fire all kurators, school nurses and school phycologists. Interestingly enough it happens to be people claiming to be "Trotskyists" that are being blamed for all this stuff. However not the ICL unfortunately. Bob --- from list [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---
