Re: M-TH: Lenin and the working class again
Lo Again, >>Not at all - who said anything about spontaneously revolutionary? What we have to do is conscientiously and consciously buoild a mass movement for >>revolution, it won't happen until the working class is willing and conscious for change. How could we have a succesful revolution with a vanguard? Make the >>programmers work at gun point? It would degenerate into tyranny, it cannot work. the only way the workers can be free is if we consciously free ourselves, >>not have someone lead us to it, or do it for us. Pace Trotsky, the revoluion is *not* made by teh minority. Dread Lord Deathy. >This is just another way of saying that you dont want social revolution and will therefore doing nothing to advance it. Your >peprspective is nothing but a disguised way of promoting capitalism and maintaining the working class in their present >conditon. Cobblers - I work hard enough towards social revolution, almost continually, and you won't find more vehemently anti-capitalist band than me and my comrades, we've only spent most of our political careers opposing attempts to reform capitalism - our one idea is, after Marx, that we believe that teh social revolution must be made by the workers themselves. I'd prefer evidence advanced rather than ad hominem accusations, maligning my honesty and integrity - call me wrong, but do not call me a liar you fuck, ok? Deathy.
Re: M-TH: Lenin and the working class again
Warm regardsGeorge Pennefather Be free to check out our Communist Think-Tank web site athttp://homepage.eircom.net/~beprepared/ Be free to subscribe to our Communist Think-Tank mailing community bysimply placing subscribe in the body of the message at the following address:mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Socialist Party To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 9:45 AM Subject: Re: M-TH: Lenin and the working class again LO All, George: If the working class is, as you claim, "potentially revolutionary" then there is no guarantee that it can spontaneously turn revolutionary which is why a vanguard party is necessary. You hoist yourself with your own petard. Not at all - who said anything about spontaneously revolutionary? What we have to do is conscientiously and consciously buoild a mass movement for revolution, it won't happen until the working class is willing and conscious for change. How could we have a succesful revolution with a vanguard? Make the programmers work at gun point? It would degenerate into tyranny, it cannot work. the only way the workers can be free is if we consciously free ourselves, not have someone lead us to it, or do it for us. Pace Trotsky, the revoluion is *not* made by teh minority. Dread Lord Deathy. This is just another way of saying that you dont want social revolution and will therefore doing nothing to advance it. Your peprspective is nothing but a disguised way of promoting capitalism and maintaining the working class in their present conditon.
Re: M-TH: Lenin and the working class again
LO All, George: If the working class is, as you claim, "potentially revolutionary" then there is no guarantee that it can spontaneously turn revolutionary which is why a vanguard party is necessary. You hoist yourself with your own petard. Not at all - who said anything about spontaneously revolutionary? What we have to do is conscientiously and consciously buoild a mass movement for revolution, it won't happen until the working class is willing and conscious for change. How could we have a succesful revolution with a vanguard? Make the programmers work at gun point? It would degenerate into tyranny, it cannot work. the only way the workers can be free is if we consciously free ourselves, not have someone lead us to it, or do it for us. Pace Trotsky, the revoluion is *not* made by teh minority. Dread Lord Deathy.
Re: M-TH: Lenin and the working class
Lo Again, >>They are condemned, then, to being revolutionary. We are condemned, King Lear like, to the duty and possiblity of revolution, it is something that is irrevomovable from our condition, but we have to choose to exorcise it. >>Now in the north of Ireland there exists thousands upon thousand of workers who would describe themselves as Protestant Unionists and who actively support British imperialism together with the rampant and intense discrimination against Catholic workers from the same geographical location. Many of these Protestant workers are proud members of the reactionary Orange Order. These workers have adhered to this reactionary counter-revolutionary culture for over a hundred years. Such workers can hardly be described as inherently revolutionary. Indeed, police officers are workers, but I wouldn't consider a police officer inherently revolution - its absurd as sayign all wopmen are inherently feminist. But, and I do have a big but, we are all potentially revolutionary, and this is why a vanguard is not only udnesirable, but also unnessary, when consciousness and necessity co-incide the revolution will happen - our job here and now is to promote consciousness as widely as possible. Deathy
M-TH: Lenin and the working class again
Deathy: Indeed, police officers are workers, but I wouldn't consider a police officer inherently revolution - its absurd as sayign all wopmen are inherently feminist. But, and I do have a big but, we are all potentially revolutionary, and this is why a vanguard is not only udnesirable, but also unnessary, when consciousness and necessity co-incide the revolution will happen - our job here and now is to promote consciousness as widely as possible George: If the working class is, as you claim, "potentially revolutionary" then there is no guarantee that it can spontaneously turn revolutionary which is why a vanguard party is necessary. You hoist yourself with your own petard. Warm regardsGeorge Pennefather Be free to check out our Communist Think-Tank web site athttp://homepage.eircom.net/~beprepared/ Be free to subscribe to our Communist Think-Tank mailing community bysimply placing subscribe in the body of the message at the following address:mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: M-TH: Lenin and the working class
Lo Again, >>They are condemned, then, to being revolutionary. We are condemned, King Lear like, to the duty and possiblity of revolution, it is something that is irrevomovable from our condition, but we have to choose to exorcise it. >>Now in the north of Ireland there exists thousands upon thousand of workers who would describe themselves as Protestant Unionists and who actively support British imperialism together with the rampant and intense discrimination against Catholic workers from the same geographical location. Many of these Protestant workers are proud members of the reactionary Orange Order. These workers have adhered to this reactionary counter-revolutionary culture for over a hundred years. Such workers can hardly be described as inherently revolutionary. Indeed, police officers are workers, but I wouldn't consider a police officer inherently revolution - its absurd as sayign all wopmen are inherently feminist. But, and I do have a big but, we are all potentially revolutionary, and this is why a vanguard is not only udnesirable, but also unnessary, when consciousness and necessity co-incide the revolution will happen - our job here and now is to promote consciousness as widely as possible. Deathy
Re: M-TH: Lenin and the working class
Title: Re: M-TH: Lenin and the working class Hugh Rodwell: If any social force can be compared to a rapist today it's the imperialist bourgeoisie. The violence of the working class should be aimed at dispossessing this bourgeoisie, ie at stopping its depradations. This is pure self-defence and what the feminist movement (or the more militant wings of it) have been advocating for women for a long time. The role of the working class is that of women in general compared to militant feminists in this particular comparison. And who would argue against the mass of women being empowered to defend themselves against the gender enemy? George Pennefather: "...should be aimed at dispossessing this bourgeoisie,..." But if, as you claim, the working class is inherently revolutionary then there is no place for "should be". This presciptive ethics is superfluous. But its very use by you is tacit acknowledgement that the working class is not inherently revolutionary. If it were inherently revolutionary then then professional revolutionaries would be out of a job. The issue of the political character of the working class and the character of its relationship to the working class is of central importance. Consequently the current debate of the issue can be of value in the efffort to clarify the issue. Warm regardsGeorge Pennefather Be free to check out our Communist Think-Tank web site athttp://homepage.eircom.net/~beprepared/ Be free to subscribe to our Communist Think-Tank mailing community bysimply placing subscribe in the body of the message at the following address:mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: M-TH: Lenin and the working class
But the theory of the vanguard is predicated on Lenin's (false) assumption of an inherently revolutionary working class - i.e. that if the working class is objectively revolutionary, then the actions of the vanguard on their behalf - whether they consciously want it or not - is the fulfillment of their historical role. Strangely, this is also the argument used by many rapists. George: I agree that this this argument of Hugh's does not hold any water which is just the point I have been seeking to make. This thing of arguing that the working class is revolutionary whether it knows it or not is illogical and amounts to saying that the prols are revolutionary whether they like it or not or whether they want to be or not. They are condemned, then, to being revolutionary. Now in the north of Ireland there exists thousands upon thousand of workers who would describe themselves as Protestant Unionists and who actively support British imperialism together with the rampant and intense discrimination against Catholic workers from the same geographical location. Many of these Protestant workers are proud members of the reactionary Orange Order. These workers have adhered to this reactionary counter-revolutionary culture for over a hundred years. Such workers can hardly be described as inherently revolutionary. Warm regardsGeorge Pennefather Be free to check out our Communist Think-Tank web site athttp://homepage.eircom.net/~beprepared/ Be free to subscribe to our Communist Think-Tank mailing community bysimply placing subscribe in the body of the message at the following address:mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: M-TH: Lenin and the working class
Title: Re: M-TH: Lenin and the working class LO Again, >>This wasn't just Lenin's assumption. It was Marx's and Engels's too. The same way as the bourgeoisie was inherently revolutionary in relation to feudalism. The historical role of the bourgeoisie was to emancipate itself from the chains of feudal property relations. Which it did. That did not mean that the bourgeoisie were inherently revolutionary, it meant that their material basis had the objective potential for creating a capitalist revolution, and that the progress of history would place them in the position of having to enact that revolution - that is different by far from the idea that the working class would automatically have their revolution if freed from the ideology of the capitalist class - a working class revolution requires the conscious awareness and determination of the working class, not their unconcious and inherent activity in the world. >>The rapist comparison is stupid. "You know what she *really* wants, don't you?" "She was asking for it..>" "All women want it really", "It is the objective historical function of women to fuck." the last highlighting the actuality of the philosophy - whilst the inherent historical tendancy of human beings is towards fucking, it does require their conscious subjective engagemnent of the human being. >>If any social force can be compared to a rapist today it's the imperialist bourgeoisie. The violence of the working class should be aimed at dispossessing this bourgeoisie, ie at stopping its depradations. This is pure self-defence and what the feminist movement (or the more militant wings of it) have been advocating for women for a long time. The role of the working class is that of women in general compared to militant feminists in this particular comparison. And who would argue against the mass of women being empowered to defend themselves against the gender enemy? Indeed, but that is different from some jumped up vanguard running along, putting guns to our heads and saying they're in charge. >>It's enough to speak of Lenin's vanguardism. Elitism has nothing to do with it. Well, élite and superiority is inherent in the vanguard concept. Bill MArtin (S.P.G.B)
Re: M-TH: Lenin and the working class
Title: Re: M-TH: Lenin and the working class LO All, >>Consequently it would seem that Lenin's vanguardist elitism was a necessary tool. But the theory of the vanguard is predicated on Lenin's (false) assumption of an inherently revolutionary working class - i.e. that if the working class is objectively revolutionary, then the actions of the vanguard on their behalf - whether they consciously want it or not - is the fulfillment of their historical role. Strangely, this is also the argument used by many rapists. This wasn't just Lenin's assumption. It was Marx's and Engels's too. The same way as the bourgeoisie was inherently revolutionary in relation to feudalism. The historical role of the bourgeoisie was to emancipate itself from the chains of feudal property relations. Which it did. Now it's the turn of the working class. The bourgeoisie took centuries. We'll do it faster -- and we'll damn well have to to prevent the bourgeoisie from destroying our world. The rapist comparison is stupid. If any social force can be compared to a rapist today it's the imperialist bourgeoisie. The violence of the working class should be aimed at dispossessing this bourgeoisie, ie at stopping its depradations. This is pure self-defence and what the feminist movement (or the more militant wings of it) have been advocating for women for a long time. The role of the working class is that of women in general compared to militant feminists in this particular comparison. And who would argue against the mass of women being empowered to defend themselves against the gender enemy? Cheers, Hugh PS It's enough to speak of Lenin's vanguardism. Elitism has nothing to do with it.
Re: M-TH: Lenin and the working class
LO All, >>Consequently it would seem that Lenin's vanguardist elitism was a necessary tool. But the theory of the vanguard is predicated on Lenin's (false) assumption of an inherently revolutionary working class - i.e. that if the working class is objectively revolutionary, then the actions of the vanguard on their behalf - whether they consciously want it or not - is the fulfillment of their historical role. Strangely, this is also the argument used by many rapists.
M-TH: Lenin and the working class
I have come to the view that the working class is not inherently revolutionary. The working class, or sections of it, becomes revolutionary as a result of the influence of a communist intelligentsia on it. The working never becomes spontaneously revolutionary. Even in the case of Russia it was the influence and leadership provided by the Bolshevik and other radical circles of intelligentsia that led to much of the political development within the working class. If the working class was spontaneonously revolutionary because of its objective character social revolution would have occurred some time ago. The number of times the working class have challenged the system are few when set against the longevity of capitalism. This is because its communist development is a function of the existence and character of the radical intelligentsia prevailing during any given period. Consequently it would seem that Lenin's vanguardist elitism was a necessary tool. However this is not to say that a Bolshevik party seizes power in the interests of the working class arbitrarily. In general a party such as the Bolsheviks can only seize power under a restricted set of circumstances. This entails a conjuncture in which the working class are in a high state of rebellious ferment. The communist vanguard party must exploit this in the interests of the working class. The political action of the working class cannot be separated out from the influence of the intelligentsia on it. The character of the inseparable combination of its own substantial conduct and the character of the influence of the intelligentsia on it. Warm regardsGeorge Pennefather Be free to check out our Communist Think-Tank web site athttp://homepage.eircom.net/~beprepared/ Be free to subscribe to our Communist Think-Tank mailing community bysimply placing subscribe in the body of the message at the following address:mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
