>>> "The World Socialist movement (via The Socialist Party of Great Britain)"
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 11/19/99 10:42PM >>>
a) I don't have handlers. One of the advantages of being in a democratic
organisation rather than a vanguard/ rank and file red star uniform fetish
club.
b) I imagine that the work of achieving socialism is done before the
revolution, in convincing them of the need and desire to organise for it,
rather than during a transitional state at gunpoint. If socialism is so
good, why don't you think workers will go for it? If they won't organise
before the revolution for it, in a society which has at least some
democratic trappings, how the hell do you think you're going to get them to
fight for it?
c) I imagine that it will be a class conscious majority which achieves
socialism. No saints and saviours there.
d) I only respond to insults with rational argument. Especially when those
insults reveal the mindset of the attacker. Your inability to conceive of
other human beings having minds of their own, and coming to conclusions
about their society and changing it for themselves, merely throws your own
humanity open to debate. And at the end of the day, the difference between
a class conscious worker and a vanguardist is that it is the vanguardist
who is at a previous stage of history, a potential ruler basing his rise to
power on the ignorance of the working class as to their own interests: the
possibility for socialism is indicated precisely by the DEATH of
vanguardism.
((((((((((((((((
Charles: Trouble is you can't claim to be more democratic and close to the working
class just by declaring it. I mean I can just declare that I am more democratic than
you and closer to the working class than you. Then where are we ? I have many essays
on the need for democracy in party organization. Your gratuitous and self-declared
superiority to all previous and other parties is not a basis for you to go around
talking like it is true.
Plus, when you say things like:
"b) I imagine that the work of achieving socialism is done before the
revolution, in convincing them of the need and desire to organise for it,
rather than during a transitional state at gunpoint. If socialism is so
good, why don't you think workers will go for it? If they won't organise
before the revolution for it, in a society which has at least some
democratic trappings, how the hell do you think you're going to get them to
fight for it?"
It kind of sounds like you are slipping some vanguardism in the back door. Why is it
that YOU are qualified to convince the workers to such and such ?
Then you say :
"a) I don't have handlers. One of the advantages of being in a democratic
organisation rather than a vanguard/ rank and file red star uniform fetish
club."
But the bottom of your posts say:
"Only messages signed by a Party officer are considered official
communications"
Your party doesn't sound quite as free of topdown structure as you keep claiming.
Your discussion is alright, but it gets to be a bit fatuous to keep declaring
yourself the superior democrat and anti-vanguardist.
Charles Brown
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