M-TH: Struggle against exploitation as learned and drive Charles Brown CharlesB at CNCL.ci.detroit.mi.us Tue Sep 8 14:39:51 MDT 1998
Previous message: M-TH: Book Review- "Reds". Next message: M-TH: Internationalism includes national tasks Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Andrew Wayne Austin writes: Charles Brown wrote: > Some material interests, like hunger do not have to be learned. They are > instinctive to the individual. First, hunger is a drive, not an instinct. An instinct is a complex set of behaviors that do not have to be learned. A spider building a web is an example of an instinct. Unlike spiders, human beings must learn to build their webs, so to speak. __________________ Charles: OK . Do humans have any instincts at all ,left ? All of our complex sets of behaviors have significant learning ? We have no pure instincts left. _______________ But even if we were to consider hunger as an instinct, it is not an analog to class struggle since both workers and capitalists hunger. ___________ Charles: The reasoning here would be as follows: If a capitalist were robbed of the fruits of his labor, he would fight to get them too. But, of course, capitalists are not, by definition ,robbed of the fruits of their labor. __________ Unlike hunger, however, the interests of the capitalist in exploiting labor-power and the interests of the worker in resisting this exploitation, are mutually exclusive (although they can be rationalized to be mutually beneficial). ____________ Charles: See what I say about your first analogy. That is it is not a good analogy. Also, it gets confused because you are. All humans have hunger and capitalists are humans (supposedly), so capitalists have hunger. But it is not true that all classes are exploited. So, no analogy can be set up between hunger and struggle for the fruits of one's labor. ______________ > What I am saying is that an individual who is exploited, i.e. labors and > then has the fruits of that labor taken does not have to learn to > dislike it. If the circumstances under which people labor are bad enough then I think some people realize this. But I don't think this is properly described as an instinct. I think it is experiential, that is learned from experience, that the given conditions are beneficial to one's oppressor and contrary to one's well-being. On the other hand, I think that a majority of workers today are grateful that there are entrepreneurs who have the good skill to create jobs. I do not believe that more than tiny minority of workers understand that the fruits of their labor is appropriated by the capitalist. I think they believe the wage is fair. ______________ Charles: Again, all human complex behavior has a significant learning component, i.e. experiential. Some of it is entirely learned or experiential. But different HISTORICAL epochs have different experiences. So, for something under the ancient slave mode to be the same thing- class struggle - as in the capitalist mode there must be something else common besides EXPERIENCE, because by definiton the experiences are different. What is common is the "drive" to own and consume the fruits of one's own labor. As to workers not understanding that they are exploited, that's the "shell game" I was referring too. The exploitation is not open and obvious, so the drive doesn't kick in. Again the class awareness is not instinctive or a drive. That is learned and combines with the individual displeasure at being ripped off. > It's like avoiding being murdered, or better, tortured. Individuals > don't have to learn to dislike being murdered or tortured, but they > would have to learn that they are murdered or tortured because they are > part of a certain social group. This is a good analogy. But I would submit to you that dislike for torture is not an instinctual response but rather is reflexive. I want to be precise in our terms. (we have to note that some people get off on pain.) _____________ Charles: OK drive , reflex. Of course, there are in born and learned reflexes too. Getting off on pain is learned, in my opinion. It is certainly true that humans are characterized by an enormous capacity to repress or reverse inborn reflexes and instincts. This is our unique characteristic. You know, we can fly and swim under water, beyond our instincts and natural abilities or inclinations. Durkheim wrote on suicide, for example. _________- > Would you elaborate what you mean in your last sentence ? My last sentence was a statement against the theory that history and culture reflect some intrinsic aspect of human biology. The range of human variation, within and across populations, is far too narrow to account for the wide range of historical and cultural variability. Therefore class struggle is a social and historical event and state of affairs, not to be explained by appeals to biologisms like instinct. _______ Charles: OK the range of human BIOLOGICAL variation is far too narrow...etc. But if class struggle is the SAME thing in different historical and social contexts, then we are not explaining a VARIABILITY but an INvariability. We wouldn't use the same scientific term to describe it if it did not have a core commonality across historical modes. Well, now we are back to the original point in question. The problem is why is class struggle in particular TRANS historical and TRANS social ? Logically, if a trait is not unique to one historical mode or social order, then how do you explain it historically or socially ? That's what it means for something to be historical or social: When the historical mode or social mode changes, the "something" would have to change too. To be transhistorical means that it remains the same , in some sense, despite historical change. See what I am saying ? Comradely, Charles Brown Detroit This message has been scanned for malware by SurfControl plc. www.surfcontrol.com _______________________________________________ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
