Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] [marxistphilosophy] Religion Marx (1)
Great reading list. Thanks. Naturally, there must have been much progress in Marxist as well as anthropological and sociological analysis of religion since Marx's time. Another question is how Marxology in relation to religion--i.e. analysis of Marx's views on religion--has progressed. There has certainly got to be more on Marx himself. I have an unverified hunch in all of this, that the distance that separates us--in spite of the contemporary existence of religious and other magical and superstitious thinking--from our premodern forbears, is much greater than generally recognized. I'll explain another time. My reading on this topic in recent months has been outside the purview of Marxism, yet these books have forced me to think in a certain dimension that I think generally escapes us moderns, even the religious among us: The Mind of the Bible-Believer (Edmund G. Cohen) Primitive Man as Philosopher (Paul Radin) Violence and the Sacred (Rene Girard) At 10:01 PM 9/25/2007, chris wright wrote: I'll add in the following: Kautsky's Foundations of Christianity; Luxemburg's article on the same matter; Paul Siegel's The Meek and the Militant; Marxism and Religion by David McLellan (1987); Walter Benjamin's musings on religion; Maxime Rodinson's excellent books Islam and Capitalism, Muhammad, and Cult, Ghetto and State; The War of Gods by Michael Lowy; Antonio Gramsci has a variety of things to say about religion in his writing on popular culture; 'Socialism and Religion', and 'Religion' by Anton Pannekoek; I believe Romila Thapar was a Marxist, and he wrote well on religion in India; Joseph Dietgen has material on religion in his essays; Slavoj Zizek writes quite a bit about religion, including The Puppet and the Dwarf and On Belief; I am also fond of the recent essay The Continuing Appeal of Religion by Gilles Dauve I have no idea if Rudolf Siebert's books on the Frankfurt School and religion are any good or even particularly Marxist Making of the English Working Class by E.P. Thompson has some brilliant stuff G.E.M. de Ste. Croix has some excellent work on religion in Antiquity such as 'Early Christian Attitudes to Property and Slavery', alongside his specifically pre-Christian Greco-Roman work. That's all that comes to mind at the moment... s ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] [marxistphilosophy] Religion Marx (1)
Another Marxist book on religion was by the social democrat, Michael Harrington, The Politics at God's Funeral: The Spiritual Crisis of Western Civilization (Baltimore: Penguin, 1985). ISBN 978-0140076899. Jim F. -- Ralph Dumain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wise, Rick B. A. Religion Marx. Austin, TX: American Atheist Press, 1988. xv, 268 p. I must have purchased this book within a few years of its publication. I even remember Madelyn O'Hair talking about it and mentioning the dialectic on some video of some American Atheists Conference program or TV show if they had one. But I never even looked at it until a couple days ago, when I was suddenly seized with the impulse to ferret it out and look it over. I was curious not only for the analysis of Marx's view of religion but to check out what kind of a book American Atheist Press would publish on Marx, seeing as no American atheist or humanist association possesses the depth or breadth to analyze social structure and causality in a manner that would take into account Marx or Marxism. Wise claims his book is the first attempt to analyze the relation between religion and other aspects of Marx's thought. He says the analysis of the Marxian approach to religion has never got beyond two articles Lenin wrote on religion by 1909. I find this assertion mighty hard to swallow, but offhand I can only think of a few books on Marx and religion, one being Trevor Ling's book on religion in the West and India, which I read a few months ago. A search of the Library of Congress database by subject yielded only a few books in English. But I have to think I'm overlooking something. There are some glitches and some odd twists and turns in this book, but also much interesting content, scarce in English let alone atheist circles. One might being with the impression that there was something fundamentally wrong when the author sets out to examine the dialectical materialism of Marx, since Marx had nothing to do with the creation of what we know as dialectical materialism, though indeed his world view was dialectical and materialist. The author also sees no warrant for treating Marx distinct from Engels, as they both substantially agreed on everything and Engels acknowledged Marx as the master. However, these faulty starting points do not damage the book. Wise points out the conceptual discrepancies between Marx and Soviet Marxism throughout the book. He also organizes his presentation of Marx's development into thesis (Hegel), antithesis (Feuerbach), and synthesis (Marx's dialectical materialism), but this too does not damage the author's actual analysis. Wise draws on some curious sources. He draws on Soviet sources for Soviet Marxism, naturally, and other introductions to dialectical materialism, which does not confuse with Marx's thought. He also draws upon Christian socialists of an earlier era, whom no one thinks about today--Julius Hecker and John Macmurray, for example. Before we get to a treatment of Marx's own views, Wise presents something one does not often find in English, and even more rarely in atheist circles--a summary of the development of Hegelian thinking on religion between Hegel and Marx. Wise does rely heavily on Engels' characterizations of Hegel and begins with the dichotomy of method and system and the inversion metaphor. Nevertheless, the key issue under examination is the notion of world as the manifestitation of the Idea and the contradiction between Hegel's logicism and the empirical content of his view of historical development. Of greatest interest, though, is the simplicity and clarity of Wise's explication of Feuerbach, the weaknesses Marx found in him, and the development of Hegelian thought via Strauss, Bauer, Feuerbach, and Stirner. You don't get this often in philosophical works in English, with quotes as well, and not in atheist literature where this material most emphatically belongs. ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] [marxistphilosophy] Religion Marx (1)
Herbert Aptheker, _The Urgency of Marxist /Christian Dialogue_; Kautsky wrote a classic on the history of Christianity. Try a search engine. Charles [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 9/25/2007 12:06 PM Another Marxist book on religion was by the social democrat, Michael Harrington, The Politics at God's Funeral: The Spiritual Crisis of Western Civilization (Baltimore: Penguin, 1985). ISBN 978-0140076899. Jim F. -- Ralph Dumain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wise, Rick B. A. Religion Marx. Austin, TX: American Atheist Press, 1988. xv, 268 p. I must have purchased this book within a few years of its publication. I even remember Madelyn O'Hair talking about it and mentioning the dialectic on some video of some American Atheists Conference program or TV show if they had one. But I never even looked at it until a couple days ago, when I was suddenly seized with the impulse to ferret it out and look it over. I was curious not only for the analysis of Marx's view of religion but to check out what kind of a book American Atheist Press would publish on Marx, seeing as no American atheist or humanist association possesses the depth or breadth to analyze social structure and causality in a manner that would take into account Marx or Marxism. Wise claims his book is the first attempt to analyze the relation between religion and other aspects of Marx's thought. He says the analysis of the Marxian approach to religion has never got beyond two articles Lenin wrote on religion by 1909. I find this assertion mighty hard to swallow, but offhand I can only think of a few books on Marx and religion, one being Trevor Ling's book on religion in the West and India, which I read a few months ago. A search of the Library of Congress database by subject yielded only a few books in English. But I have to think I'm overlooking something. There are some glitches and some odd twists and turns in this book, but also much interesting content, scarce in English let alone atheist circles. One might being with the impression that there was something fundamentally wrong when the author sets out to examine the dialectical materialism of Marx, since Marx had nothing to do with the creation of what we know as dialectical materialism, though indeed his world view was dialectical and materialist. The author also sees no warrant for treating Marx distinct from Engels, as they both substantially agreed on everything and Engels acknowledged Marx as the master. However, these faulty starting points do not damage the book. Wise points out the conceptual discrepancies between Marx and Soviet Marxism throughout the book. He also organizes his presentation of Marx's development into thesis (Hegel), antithesis (Feuerbach), and synthesis (Marx's dialectical materialism), but this too does not damage the author's actual analysis. Wise draws on some curious sources. He draws on Soviet sources for Soviet Marxism, naturally, and other introductions to dialectical materialism, which does not confuse with Marx's thought. He also draws upon Christian socialists of an earlier era, whom no one thinks about today--Julius Hecker and John Macmurray, for example. Before we get to a treatment of Marx's own views, Wise presents something one does not often find in English, and even more rarely in atheist circles--a summary of the development of Hegelian thinking on religion between Hegel and Marx. Wise does rely heavily on Engels' characterizations of Hegel and begins with the dichotomy of method and system and the inversion metaphor. Nevertheless, the key issue under examination is the notion of world as the manifestitation of the Idea and the contradiction between Hegel's logicism and the empirical content of his view of historical development. Of greatest interest, though, is the simplicity and clarity of Wise's explication of Feuerbach, the weaknesses Marx found in him, and the development of Hegelian thought via Strauss, Bauer, Feuerbach, and Stirner. You don't get this often in philosophical works in English, with quotes as well, and not in atheist literature where this material most emphatically belongs. ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] [marxistphilosophy] Religion Marx (1)
Marx on Religion ( http://www.amazon.com/Marx-Religion-John-C-Raines/dp/1566399408/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-1 ) by John C. Raines (Paperback - April 2002) Buy new ( http://www.amazon.com/Marx-Religion-John-C-Raines/dp/1566399408/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-1 ): $20.9514 Used new ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1566399408/ref=pd_bbs_sr_olp_1/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-1 ) from $14.24 Get it by Wednesday, Sep 26 if you order in the next 3 hours and choose one-day shipping. Eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping. Other Editions: Hardcover ( http://www.amazon.com/Marx-Religion-Karl/dp/1566399394/ref=sr_oe_1_1/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-1 ) 2. ( http://www.amazon.com/Marx-Engels-Religion-Karl/dp/1589637143/ref=sr_1_2/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-2 ) Marx and Engels on Religion ( http://www.amazon.com/Marx-Engels-Religion-Karl/dp/1589637143/ref=sr_1_2/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-2 ) by Karl Marx and Frederick Engels (Paperback - Feb 2002) Buy new ( http://www.amazon.com/Marx-Engels-Religion-Karl/dp/1589637143/ref=sr_1_2/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-2 ): $34.5024 Used new ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1589637143/ref=sr_1_olp_2/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-2 ) from $34.50 Get it by Wednesday, Sep 26 if you order in the next 1 hour and choose one-day shipping. Eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping. Other Editions: Unknown Binding ( http://www.amazon.com/Marx-Engels-religion-Karl/dp/B0007C7G30/ref=sr_oe_2_1/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-2 ) 3. ( http://www.amazon.com/Marx-Critical-Theory-Religion-Critique/dp/9004152385/ref=sr_1_3/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-3 ) Marx, Critical Theory, And Religion: A Critique of Rational Choice (Studies in Critical Social Sciences) ( http://www.amazon.com/Marx-Critical-Theory-Religion-Critique/dp/9004152385/ref=sr_1_3/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-3 ) by Warren S. Goldstein (Hardcover - Jun 1, 2006) Buy new ( http://www.amazon.com/Marx-Critical-Theory-Religion-Critique/dp/9004152385/ref=sr_1_3/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-3 ): $134.009 Used new ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/9004152385/ref=sr_1_olp_3/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-3 ) from $74.99 Get it by Wednesday, Sep 26 if you order in the next 3 hours and choose one-day shipping. Eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping. 4. ( http://www.amazon.com/Marxs-Religion-Revolution-Regeneratio-North/dp/093046415X/ref=sr_1_4/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-4 ) Marxs Religion of Revolution Regeneratio ( http://www.amazon.com/Marxs-Religion-Revolution-Regeneratio-North/dp/093046415X/ref=sr_1_4/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-4 ) by Gary North (Paperback - Jul 1989) Buy new ( http://www.amazon.com/Marxs-Religion-Revolution-Regeneratio-North/dp/093046415X/ref=sr_1_4/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-4 ): $8.9515 Used new ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/093046415X/ref=sr_1_olp_4/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-4 ) from $4.26 Get it by Wednesday, Sep 26 if you order in the next 3 hours and choose one-day shipping. Eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping. 5. ( http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Marxist-Critiques-Religion-Kautsky/dp/902471656X/ref=sr_1_5/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-5 ) The Classical Marxist Critiques of Religion: Marx, Engels, Lenin, Kautsky ( http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Marxist-Critiques-Religion-Kautsky/dp/902471656X/ref=sr_1_5/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-5 ) by D.B. McKown (Paperback - May 31, 1975) Buy new ( http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Marxist-Critiques-Religion-Kautsky/dp/902471656X/ref=sr_1_5/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-5 ): $99.0034 Used new ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/902471656X/ref=sr_1_olp_5/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-5 ) from $74.12 Get it by Wednesday, Sep 26 if you order in the next 3 hours and choose one-day shipping. Eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping. 6. ( http://www.amazon.com/Karl-Religion-Emanzipation-Protestantismus-Sozialismus/dp/3579035762/ref=sr_1_6/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-6 ) Karl Marx uber Religion und Emanzipation (Protestantismus und Sozialismus ; Bd. 1, 2) (
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] [marxistphilosophy] Religion Marx (1)
I don't have the Raine compilation. Does it differ significantly from ON RELIGION published both by Progress Publishers and Niebuhr via an American publisher? I don't know what to make of Marx, Critical Theory, And Religion: A Critique of Rational Choice just from the description. Gary North is right-wing bullshit. The Classical Marxist Critiques of Religion: Marx, Engels, Lenin, Kautsky looks very interesting, too bad it costs $99. I'm familiar with works such as Aptheker's, but I'm not interested in the Marxist-Christian dialogue or in liberation theology. Kautsky would be important historically, though I hope better than the quotes I saw in Wise's book. I'm more interested in an in-depth analysis of Marx than I am with appeals to religious people, liberaiton theology, Soviet Marxism, etc. At 03:00 PM 9/25/2007, Charles Brown wrote: Marx on Religion ( http://www.amazon.com/Marx-Religion-John-C-Raines/dp/1566399408/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-1 ) by John C. Raines (Paperback - April 2002) 2. Marx and Engels on Religion ( http://www.amazon.com/Marx-Engels-Religion-Karl/dp/1589637143/ref=sr_1_2/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-2 ) by Karl Marx and Frederick Engels (Paperback - Feb 2002) 3. Marx, Critical Theory, And Religion: A Critique of Rational Choice (Studies in Critical Social Sciences) ( http://www.amazon.com/Marx-Critical-Theory-Religion-Critique/dp/9004152385/ref=sr_1_3/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-3 ) by Warren S. Goldstein (Hardcover - Jun 1, 2006) 4. Marxs Religion of Revolution Regeneratio ( http://www.amazon.com/Marxs-Religion-Revolution-Regeneratio-North/dp/093046415X/ref=sr_1_4/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-4 ) by Gary North (Paperback - Jul 1989) 5. The Classical Marxist Critiques of Religion: Marx, Engels, Lenin, Kautsky ( http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Marxist-Critiques-Religion-Kautsky/dp/902471656X/ref=sr_1_5/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-5 ) by D.B. McKown (Paperback - May 31, 1975) Buy new ( http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Marxist-Critiques-Religion-Kautsky/dp/902471656X/ref=sr_1_5/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-5 ): $99.0034 Used new ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/902471656X/ref=sr_1_olp_5/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-5 ) from $74.12 Get it by Wednesday, Sep 26 if you order in the next 3 hours and choose one-day shipping. Eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping. 6. Karl Marx uber Religion und Emanzipation (Protestantismus und Sozialismus ; Bd. 1, 2) ( http://www.amazon.com/Karl-Religion-Emanzipation-Protestantismus-Sozialismus/dp/3579035762/ref=sr_1_6/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-6 ) by Karl Marx (Perfect Paperback - 1975) , 12. Karl Marx and Religion in Europe and India ( http://www.amazon.com/Karl-Marx-Religion-Europe-India/dp/B000TRRLJW/ref=sr_1_12/002-4952599-6116004?ie=UTF8amp;s=booksamp;qid=1190746749amp;sr=1-12 ) by Trevor Ling (Hardcover - 1981) ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] [marxistphilosophy] Religion Marx (1)
I'm familiar with the Aptheker title and most likely read at least parts of it decades ago. Can't say much about this except this sort of dialogue doesn't do much for me. It can of course be useful to delineate what separates Marxist method or world view from even the most allegedly revolutionary liberation theology, and why the difference matters, and this genre can be useful for this purpose. I have my doubts how much insight is to be yielded in this format, however. Yes, of course Marx isn't gospel, so to speak. Investigation of various terrains inspired by Marxian methods must progress and evolve beyond what Marx himself could accomplish. But also for this reason it is important to be clear about Marx's own views, so as not to distort his own position in claiming our take on him, or our own original ideas--whether better or worse-- are congruent with his. I need to double-check the wording, but I think the author of this book claimed that progress in understanding Marx's views on religion was aborted, rather than independent Marxist takes on religion. But it also appears that he did not exhaustively examine the literature, judging from the bibliography. At 05:22 PM 9/25/2007, Charles Brown wrote: The Aptheker book discusses, compares, contrasts concepts in Marxism ( Marx) and Christianity. The dialogue is, of course, because real marxists are not just interpreting the world , but trying to change it. Marx isn't infinitely deep , is he ? Eventually, pretty soon even given how much we study him, we should get to the bottom of him, and apply him to our concrete situation. I think that's sort of the way he indicated he wanted to be used. And then we have to develop his thought based on world developments since his time. Sure we can go to the well a lot, but then we gotta extrapolate, create, extend, negate and negate the negation even. ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
