Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Are you really a champion of the poorest sectors of the

2009-03-08 Thread Waistline2
What are the  spontaneous demands of that  section of the working class in 
motion that  President 
Obama and the  entire institutional political sphere responding to?

^
CB:  Anti-war, anti-racist, the rational kernel
of American  humanism.

^^  


Reply
 
Apparently the poorest section of the working class was not driven by or  
responding to being poor but anti-racism. Race theory and race ideology blinds  
one to class and economic impulses. 
 
Here is the crux of the dispute. I strongly believe the American people,  
that section of the working class in motion, responded to economic demands and  
needs which they voiced clearly, rather than an abstract rational kernel of  
American humanism. People were losing their jobs, were tired of the wars, tied  
of the Bush W. economic policy and wanted changed. 
 
Denial of the economic demands of the American people is in my estimate  
short sighted. 
 
WL. 
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Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Are you really a champion of the poorest sectors of the

2009-03-08 Thread Waistline2
Reply
 
WL: What is the Marxist perspective of our current economic, social  and  
political environment of which Barack Obama is a part?
 
^
CB: It's do what you can to help O.
 
 
Comment
 

Last week on several lists an article indicating an up tick in sales of  Marx 
capital was run. Surely anyone interest in purchasing Capital and actually  
reading it indicates a political stirring and yearning within the working class 
 itself. This political yearning is part of the political and ideological  
landscape, of which Barack Obama is a part of. 
 
The perspective of Marxists and communists should be to do what  you can to 
help O. What is wrong with this political projection is everything,  because 
it means abandoning the literary aspect of our task as communists.  Social 
democracy has no shame. 
 
WL. 
 
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Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Are you really a champion of the poorest sectors of the ...

2009-03-07 Thread Waistline2
 
In a message dated 3/7/2009 12:38:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
cdb1...@prodigy.net writes:


Waistline2 


The issue is  always what is wrong rather than who is wrong. 

Labeling people  haters . . . left haters, who do not support Obama  the  
person and the Obama presidency in a country where the  working class is so 
and  
devisive and sectarian that the  majority refuse to vote at all, is what 
is 
wrong.

^^
CB: I  was responding to you writing about
me ( who) was penning away about  Obama's 
increasing unemployment benefits.
One good criticism of who  deserves another (smile)

As far as left-haters, on these lists the  issue of
motive in interpreting the events since O's
election is  pertinent.  I regularly read posts
that interpret the glass as half  empty
when it could be interpreted as  half-full.



^

I see no reason what so ever to  praise (my exact word) Obama or his  
administration for  extending unemployment benefits to the exact same degree  
and  the exact same way done under the Bush W. administration.  
^^^
CB: I do. It's what's going on on these
'left lists these  days.  It's just another praise added to 
opening up stem cell  research, pay equity
for women, the budget reversing Reaganism,  announcement
of the withdrawal of the troops from Iraq, stimulus  package.
That's the context. The unemployment thing is not  isolated.
Also, O's admin did two things Bush didn't do. $25 more
per  week, and no tax on first $2,500. Plus, they did it
right away. 

And  it is very important to keep up popular support
for Obama, counter the  propaganda from Kramer
and the Wall Street mouthpieces, Limbaugh.
We're  in an ongoing struggle, campaign. It
didn't end with the election  campaign.

The little things are like little pieces
of campaign  literature handed out
at the polls or door to door. 

So, I'd say  you're wrong on what is do be
done right  now.



^^^

The issue I wrote about was not an addition  $100 a month, but deals with a  
completely different realm: a  measure of what took place under the Bush  W.  
administration,


CB: So, why would you  criticize the praise
of the $100 a month and the tax break , which
was  more than what Bush did. Plus, I don't
think Bush did it at the beginning  of his
presidency.  I have to check.
No reason to criticize the  praise of Obama
for doing something good 'cause Bush did  it.

^^^

the precedence of the past and the art of the  possible. It is  
imperative that communist always stay one step  ahead along the path the 
working  
class must travel as its  spontaneous movement and its self discovery of 
itself  as a  class. The LENS to use in traveling this path is that if the 
lowest  
section  of the workers as their interest intersect and find  expression in 
the 
political  sphere. 

^
CB: In  this case. one step ahead along
that path is to rally the working class  to
support Obama. In case you didn't notice
the bourgeoisie are rallying  against his
first pro-working class moves.

The ultra-left is  stumbling into
joining Kramer, Santelli and  Limbaugh

^^

What is wrong is praising the Obama  administration and the one hand; and  
condemnation of comrades -  let haters,  whose opinion might disagree  with 
 
someone's else opinion. 

^^
CB: See above.  See discussion several
weeks ago posts on Lenin's polemics
against the  ultra-left. We have the same
task today.  

^^

To  begin with it is impossible to save capital without saving  those  
workers connected to it as the unity of productive forces  and production  
relations. 
To preserve this unity it is  necessary to increase demand and I shall  never 
approach or  suggest negotiating from a standpoint that my enemies  are doing 
 
me or mine a favor,   . . with a concession, as  such.  . 

^
CB:  You have a different attitude toward
the Obama  event than I do. I think we should
rally the working class in  support of him.
It's true it's because it's the best we
have right now,  but , there you go.
It's sort of like supporting Coleman
Young  as Mayor.

^ 

^
.. 
The real issue is over  concentrating on private sector jobs - as  
government spending  or socially necessary means of life. The pouring of  
trillions of  
dollars down the rabbit hole of modern speculative finance  is  designed to 
starve the workers of these needed funds.  

^
CB: Well, yeah, that more later

The issue is not me  or who I am, rather the issue is how are  comrades 
to 
frame  the current struggle of the working class. Towards this end  a  
doctrine 
is being put forth as the strategy and tactics of  using class  
intersection 
as a measure of the complex fight  unfolding. This is what is  missing in 
assessments of the Obama  administration and the existing correlations  of 
forces 
in the  Senate. 

Further comrades cannot be sectarian for fighting to establish  a communist  
polarity in the political sphere. Which side are  you on 

Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Are you really a champion of the poorest sectors of the ...

2009-03-07 Thread Waistline2

 CB:  You have a different attitude toward the Obama  event than I do. I 
think we should rally the working class in support of him.  It's true it's 
because it's the best we have right now, but , there you go. It's  sort of like 
supporting Coleman Young as Mayor. 
 

Reply
 
What is the Marxist perspective of our current economic, social and  
political environment of which Barack Obama is a part? What correlation of 
class  
forces and intersection allowed for Obama to be elected president? What is the  
practice of the working class movement forming the framework by which Obama the 
 
person as President to be weighed, measured and assessed? What are the  
spontaneous demands of that section of the working class in motion that  
President 
Obama and the entire institutional political sphere responding to?  What phase 
of the process of social revolution currently exists? What is the  role of 
communists in the social process? 
 
America is undergoing a profound political, economic and social collapse.  
Collapse does not mean no one is working or that the political system and  
social relations have been shattered and no longer operate. When a society  
undergoes collapse . . . . revolutionary collapse, this means the old ways of  
doing things and the old social relations of the previous period is undergoing  
transformation. Specifically the old platform or infrastructure relations 
that 
 held society together is straining and collapsing as society attempts to 
leap to  a new infrastructure relations.  
 
This was the case with the Civil rights movement, which in the first and  
last instance, had as its impetus the tractor or the mechanization of  
agriculture and pushing 11 million sharecroppers off of the land and first into 
 
Southern small towns and cities and then to the North where these folks would  
take 
their place in the industrial social order. The tractor was introduced by  
International Harvester in 1939. One can shift backwards through history and 
see  
- in retrospect, how every deepening quantitative boundary in the 
mechanization  of agriculture had its corresponding and intensifying advance in 
the 
political  struggle as the Civil Rights Movement.  The Civil Rights movement 
was a  
social movement for economic and social justice; for the expansion of 
political  liberty. The old society constituted on the basis of Jim Crow 
segregation  
collapsed. First this old society was breached, then shattered and finally 
swept  away by a cross section of American society (class intersection), but 
all 
of  this was dependent upon and corresponded with changes in the means of  
production. 
 
The Marxist conception of collapse and revolutionary collapse is not  the 
ideology of any damn thing can happen or one damn thing after another  
but transformation; the dialectic of the leap or the transition from one kind 
of 
 society configuration to another. This Marxist understanding gives us the  
ideological conviction to wage the never ending struggle with the bourgeois  
power.  
 
America is undergoing the early stages of revolutionary collapse. 
 
Specifically, incremental qualitative changes in the productive forces  begin 
polarizing and unraveling all classes and class fragments as society  strains 
to adjust and reorient itself around a new technological regime. This  
reorientation appears as fight and attack by all classes and class fragments  
against the existing regime. Each class and class fragment is seeking to 
achieve  
reorganization and stability on a new basis, but this stability cannot be  
achieved because the property relations prevent the completion of the leap.  
Further, the private ownership of socially necessary property, prevents the  
fullest 
development of the new technological regime in servicing the socially  
necessary means of life for the masses. Consequently, a spontaneous series of  
chain 
reactions by various sectors of society, from various points of view, is  
destroying - unraveling, the society political infrastructure and social  
relations created during the industrial era. 
 
That is why the fascist and Republican have becomes so outspoken and  adamant 
in their condemnation of any change. The real political fascist in  
government very well understand the social process. 
 
What emerges in the political sphere is the competing of different classes  
and class fragments with intersecting interest and this clash and struggle is  
called the class struggle that drives society forward. This class struggle  
revealed itself in a tiny way during the campaign phase of the Presidential  
election. It was a historically specific alignment of social forces that 
allowed  Obama to best Senator Clinton as the Democratic Party nominee for 
President 
and  then best Senator John McCain. Some view this alignment as white people 
doing  the right thing - one damn thing after another, or waging the 
heroic  struggle against racism. 
 
I do not. 
 
What 

Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Are you really a champion of the poorest sectors of the ...

2009-03-07 Thread Waistline2
CB: In this case. one step ahead along that path is to rally the working  
class to support Obama. In case you didn't notice the bourgeoisie are rallying  
against his first pro-working class moves. 

The ultra-left is stumbling  into joining Kramer, Santelli and Limbaugh


Comment
 
Simply produce one piece of the ulta left that stumbles into  supporting  . 
. . joining Kramer, Santelli and Limbaugh. 
 
If you can not produce any evidence then stop fighting straw men of your  own 
creation to justify your endless attack against the left. 
 
Produce the evidence. 


WL. 
**Need a job? Find employment help in your area. 
(http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agenciesncid=emlcntusyelp0005)

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Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Are you really a champion of the poorest sectors of the ...

2009-03-06 Thread Waistline2
The issue is always what is wrong rather than who is wrong. 
 
Labeling people haters . . . left haters, who do not support Obama the  
person and the Obama presidency in a country where the working class is so and  
devisive and sectarian that the majority refuse to vote at all, is what is 
 wrong. I see no reason what so ever to praise (my exact word) Obama or his  
administration for extending unemployment benefits to the exact same degree 
and  the exact same way done under the Bush W. administration. 
 
The issue I wrote about was not an addition $100 a month, but deals with a  
completely different realm: a measure of what took place under the Bush W.  
administration, the precedence of the past and the art of the possible. It is  
imperative that communist always stay one step ahead along the path the working 
 
class must travel as its spontaneous movement and its self discovery of 
itself  as a class. The LENS to use in traveling this path is that if the 
lowest 
section  of the workers as their interest intersect and find expression in the 
political  sphere. 
 
What is wrong is praising the Obama administration and the one hand; and  
condemnation of comrades - let haters,  whose opinion might disagree with  
someone's else opinion. 
 
To begin with it is impossible to save capital without saving those  
workers connected to it as the unity of productive forces and production  
relations. 
To preserve this unity it is necessary to increase demand and I shall  never 
approach or suggest negotiating from a standpoint that my enemies  are doing 
me or mine a favor,   . . with a concession, as  such. . 
. 
The real issue is over concentrating on private sector jobs - as  
government spending or socially necessary means of life. The pouring of  
trillions of 
dollars down the rabbit hole of modern speculative finance is  designed to 
starve the workers of these needed funds. 
 
The issue is not me or who I am, rather the issue is how are  comrades to 
frame the current struggle of the working class. Towards this end a  doctrine 
is being put forth as the strategy and tactics of using class  intersection 
as a measure of the complex fight unfolding. This is what is  missing in 
assessments of the Obama administration and the existing correlations  of 
forces 
in the Senate. 
 
Further comrades cannot be sectarian for fighting to establish a communist  
polarity in the political sphere. Which side are you on is not a conception of  
Democrats or Republicans but workers and capitalist. 
 
WL. 
 


In a message dated 3/6/2009 4:35:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
cdb1...@prodigy.net writes:

This penning away about how much Obama is  doing for the working class for  
extending unemployment benefits is  blind to all those workers who cannot 
receive 
such benefits. Further, we  have many precedents in the past concerning 
extension  of unemployment  benefits, even under the Bush W. regime. In fact 
in the 
1970's  under  the old Trade Readjustment Act of 1974 (or was it 1976) laid 
off 
and   displaced workers were bagging 10 - 20K and today, a few hundred bucks 
a  
week is  pathetic and unworthy of praise. 

^

CB: It's not the only Obama action in favor of the working class. Because  
some can't receive benefits doesn't mean it's not worth noting those who do  
benefit. Your expression here is  devisive and sectarian. The idea is to  
promote 
solidarity among people, not encourage one group begrudge benefits to  
another segment. And the amounts are small, but $100 more a month can pay a  
monthly 
minimum health insurance or car insurance bill for six to ten months.  six to 
9 months of extended benefits amounts to thousans of dollars. A real  
champion of the poorest sectors of the working class wouldn't sneeze at these  
amounts of money.
**Need a job? Find employment help in your area. 
(http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agenciesncid=emlcntusyelp0005)

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Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Are you really a champion of the poorest sectors of the ...

2009-03-06 Thread Ralph Dumain
Charles lost his mind a long time ago. But he has gotten really bad 
in recent months. After you have partaken too much of what the CP is 
serving, you get the itis.

A lot of words are wasted wrangling in sectarian environments. 
Perhaps some people feel the need to prove they're not being fooled, 
by denouncing bourgeois politicians.  Others, proving they are not 
sectarian, act as if self-deception and confusion is the way to act 
practically and make necessary compromises. But once one knows a 
bourgeois politician is a bourgeois politician, one can move on to 
delineate clearly and precisely the situation to be dealt with.

At 05:31 PM 3/6/2009, waistli...@aol.com wrote:
The issue is always what is wrong rather than who is wrong.

Labeling people haters . . . left haters, who do not support Obama the
person and the Obama presidency in a country where the working class 
is so and
devisive and sectarian that the majority refuse to vote at all, is what is
  wrong. I see no reason what so ever to praise (my exact word) 
 Obama or his
administration for extending unemployment benefits to the exact same degree
and  the exact same way done under the Bush W. administration.

The issue I wrote about was not an addition $100 a month, but deals with a
completely different realm: a measure of what took place under the Bush W.
administration, the precedence of the past and the art of the 
possible. It is
imperative that communist always stay one step ahead along the path 
the working
class must travel as its spontaneous movement and its self discovery of
itself  as a class. The LENS to use in traveling this path is that 
if the lowest
section  of the workers as their interest intersect and find 
expression in the
political  sphere.

What is wrong is praising the Obama administration and the one hand; and
condemnation of comrades - let haters,  whose opinion might disagree with
someone's else opinion.

To begin with it is impossible to save capital without saving those
workers connected to it as the unity of productive forces and 
production  relations.
To preserve this unity it is necessary to increase demand and I shall  never
approach or suggest negotiating from a standpoint that my enemies  are doing
me or mine a favor,   . . with a concession, as  such. .
.
The real issue is over concentrating on private sector jobs - as
government spending or socially necessary means of life. The pouring 
of  trillions of
dollars down the rabbit hole of modern speculative finance is  designed to
starve the workers of these needed funds.

The issue is not me or who I am, rather the issue is how are  comrades to
frame the current struggle of the working class. Towards this end a  doctrine
is being put forth as the strategy and tactics of using class  intersection
as a measure of the complex fight unfolding. This is what is  missing in
assessments of the Obama administration and the existing 
correlations  of forces
in the Senate.

Further comrades cannot be sectarian for fighting to establish a communist
polarity in the political sphere. Which side are you on is not a 
conception of
Democrats or Republicans but workers and capitalist.

WL.



In a message dated 3/6/2009 4:35:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
cdb1...@prodigy.net writes:

This penning away about how much Obama is  doing for the working class for
extending unemployment benefits is  blind to all those workers who cannot
receive
such benefits. Further, we  have many precedents in the past concerning
extension  of unemployment  benefits, even under the Bush W. regime. In fact
in the
1970's  under  the old Trade Readjustment Act of 1974 (or was it 1976) laid
off
and   displaced workers were bagging 10 - 20K and today, a few hundred bucks
a
week is  pathetic and unworthy of praise.

^

CB: It's not the only Obama action in favor of the working class. Because
some can't receive benefits doesn't mean it's not worth noting those who do
benefit. Your expression here is  devisive and sectarian. The idea 
is to  promote
solidarity among people, not encourage one group begrudge benefits to
another segment. And the amounts are small, but $100 more a month 
can pay a  monthly
minimum health insurance or car insurance bill for six to ten months.  six to
9 months of extended benefits amounts to thousans of dollars. A real
champion of the poorest sectors of the working class wouldn't sneeze 
at these
amounts of money.
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