Re: [Marxism] Australian Socialist Alliance edges into the Putinite camp
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 06/05/2014, at 8:52 AM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: But even more puzzling is the absence of debate on their own mailing list on Yahoo or here about all this. I have trouble figuring out whether this is a function of the sort of disdain for the petty-bourgeois Internet shared by the ISO and the SWP or instead a pronounced tendency in their ranks toward allowing an orientation to be determined by specialists like Renfrey Clarke. For one thing a lot of Internet discussion has moved to Facebook, for good or ill. For another Renfrey isn't necessarily revered as an expert, for example on Libya where there was a lot of public discussion around 2011-12 and if I recall correctly to the extent there was any line adopted, Renfrey's very positive stance towards the rebels was a minority one. See e.g. http://links.org.au/node/2300. For a third thing Socialist Alliance's line clearly isn't what's in Links, as there's a variety of views there. Socialist Alliance is discussing a line for a conference in a month, which is: [From http://alliancevoices.blogspot.com.au/2014/04/draft-international-perspectives.html] 7. The fragile recovery from the GFC and the Great Recession that followed has been at the expense of the large majority of people who have been forced to shoulder the main burden. As a result a continuing political crisis of neo-liberalism continues to break out into political upheavals and what the IMF calls “geopolitical risks”. These include the continuing wars and uprisings in the Middle East, the conflict in Ukraine and the continuing popular mobilisations against austerity in southern Europe. 8. However, many of these mass uprisings also revealed the limits of spontaneous revolts as well as the challenges – and necessity – of developing the self-organisation and political consciousness of the oppressed and building a political force that represents the interests of the oppressed and is capable of leading a struggle for political power against the ruling classes. In the absence of such developments, right-wing populists, local elites and imperialist powers will exploit the situation. We can see this dynamic unfold in Egypt, Syria and the Ukraine. 9. The Socialist Alliance will continue to stand in solidarity with all struggles against oppression and exploitation even where we disagree with the political leadership of such struggles. For instance, we defend the supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood and other dissidents facing brutal repression under the Egyptian military regime, even though we disagreed with the politics of MB and the former Morsi government. 10. We oppose – and seek to expose – any imperialist intervention and manipulation of these conflicts but we reject the approach of those leftists who in the name of opposing imperialism whitewash bloody dictatorships like that the Syrian tyrant Bashar al-Assad. Similarly, while we condemn the interference of the US and EU in the conflict in Ukraine we also call for an end to the intervention by the Putin government of Russia. We support the right of self-determination of Ukraine as well as the right of people in the Crimea to decide their future; however, this must include the right of the Crimean Tartars to return to their homeland. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Australian Socialist Alliance edges into the Putinite camp
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 5/6/14 9:30 AM, Nick Fredman wrote: For one thing a lot of Internet discussion has moved to Facebook, for good or ill. Really? Why don't you point me in the right direction since both the Links and Greenleft FB groups are pretty much the same thing as the Green Left Mailing list on Yahoo, a place for Terry to send out links to Links and Greenleft articles. I'd love to see some discussion about Ukraine on the Yahoo mailing list. From the looks of things there, Ilitis, Clarke, Annis and Kagarlitsky speak for your membership. I only hope that you people put the Borotba statement on Links for informational purposes since it is really toxic. Just about all the evidence it puts forward originated from Russia. I expect that Annis and Ilitis take this garbage seriously but anybody who hasn't drunk Putin's Kool-Aid would not. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Australian Socialist Alliance edges into the Putinite camp
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Over the past nearly 20 years since I have cohabited with these people on Marxmail and the mailing list that preceded it, I have gotten used to their reticence. There was a time when they were still gung-ho on Leninism that they were more outspoken. I distinctly remember Peter Boyle (the activist, not the comic actor) once making the case that Leninism was revolutionary factionalism. Of course, that was a long time ago and my memory might be fading. Have to increase the fish oil intake, I guess. The only member of this group that seems to have a mind of his own is Michael Karadjis who I had some battle royales with during the war in Kosovo. I only wish that I could turn the clock back and have distinguished myself more from Jared Israel. Oh well, live and learn. Michael is sort of their Richard Seymour, an outlier who has the odd notion that membership in a Bolshevik group has some relationship to the historic Bolshevik Party where members were expected to think and speak for themselves. What a quaint notion. As should be obvious from Links posting Borotba's call (http://links.org.au/node/3837) for an anti-fascist (ie., pro-Russian) protest in Ukraine and Kagarlitsky's addled musings, as well as kindred expressions from Renfrey Clarke and Tony Ilitis in Green Left Weekly, our friends are moving rapidly toward the John Rees orientation. Borotba's statement is really quite an eye-opener, filled with formulations that probably wouldn't pass muster in Counterfire and--unbelievably--a citation from RT.com. Frankly, you would think at this stage of the game that serious political people would avoid citing RT.com, especially on the Ukraine. For me, quoting RT.com on the Ukraine is like putting on a red rubber nose, grease-paint and squirting people with a seltzer bottle. But even more puzzling is the absence of debate on their own mailing list on Yahoo or here about all this. I have trouble figuring out whether this is a function of the sort of disdain for the petty-bourgeois Internet shared by the ISO and the SWP or instead a pronounced tendency in their ranks toward allowing an orientation to be determined by specialists like Renfrey Clarke. I only wish that I had the guts when I was an SWP member to challenge someone like Frank Lovell back in 1977 when he told a convention that the working class of the USA was more radicalized than any time in the 20th century. Having lived through that experience, I resolved to make up my own mind about everything. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Australian Socialist Alliance edges into the Putinite camp
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Obviously Louis is correct - people who don't know jack shit about the Ukraine are the most qualified to comment on it. After all, that's the traditional Left approach! The sad truth is that endless circular debates with Putinites are an epic waste of time. Even reading them is eye-stabbingly pointless. That's why you don't hear much from Socialist Alliance members on these topics. Articles posted on Links aren't line documents. Socialist Alliance *isn't* the US SWP in drag. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
