Re: [Marxism] It’s Time for the Left to Build a Force Outside the Democratic Party | Left Voice
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I have read the book WE ARE INDIVISIBLE and believe that the STRUCTURE of the indivisible movement(s) [plural!] forms the basis of what Mark describes he tried to do in Ohio --- they are people who meet face to face regularly --- their job is NOT just to run candidates - though they have done that for sure -- but to PRESSURE people in office (and that includes DEMS --- lots of local demonstrations are aimed at FORCING Dems to be more resistant to the Republican agenda --- I would bet that is the reason the so-called "moderate" Dems in the Senate voted for impeachment --- they guessed that a vote against convicting Trump will hurt more than angering Republicans --- Senator Doug JOnes clearly recognized that he owed his election to black women and he needs them to tirelessly work for his re-election if he is to stand a chance ---) The book ends with a rather high quality democratic (small "d") reform agenda --- doesn't come close to a truly radical economic and social agenda but it is a way of channeling energy into something useful --- I recommend that book highly -- it can be read in almost one sitting! _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] It’s Time for the Left to Build a Force Outside the Democratic Party | Left Voice
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Yeah, what I proposed, repeatedly, as a course of action for the Greens in Ohio might well be common sense, but it's certainly NOT what advocates of independent political action do. If it had been, we'd be in a much different place than we are today. The Greens in all but a few states have repeatedly chosen not to do it. And the leadership in those few states that have tried to build something (New York and California, for examples) have been fine with a national party dominated by paper parties. That's been the case for a quarter of a century. And those who don't like the Greens because they don't label themselves as a class party have accomplished even less. Every time you hear someone say, "why should we put anything into the Greens when we could invest in building a labor party," you know they're not going to actually do anything. Most of them I've heard this from for years are currently cheering spectators in the Democratic stadium. And the socialists? Well, they could have kept their own organizations and acted together electorally. They could have done this in 2016 or 2004 or 1992. But not a one of them has taken any initiative on this over the last fifty years, what chance is there that they're going to respond any differently over the next decade or so. There will be no party without new politics based on actually mobilizing people--an electoral strategy that reflects the kind of movements we want to build. It's not being done. And the corporate "social justice warrior" model applied to electoral action will accomplish no more permanent gains in electoral action than in the wider society. Solidarity! Mark L. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] It’s Time for the Left to Build a Force Outside the Democratic Party | Left Voice
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * "Some years back, when the Green party won over 104,000 votes in this state, I put together a plan to organize and field teams that could cover the state, establishing viable little groups where the vote was in double digits and cultivating a statewide network that would circulate speakers and engage in regular public forums and events. " Presumably that is what every campaign does, and it requires money and time. I don't get how it could be done without people to finance it. On Wed, Feb 5, 2020, 11:48 PM Mark Lause wrote: > We seem to be so far down the rabbit hole of money-centered > corporate-consumerist politics. Raising money to open offices and hire > canvassers is no alternative to a system based on that circular process. > The alternative to running as Democrats is not running LIKE Democrats. > > A challenge to the structure of electoral politics has to be reflected in > our practice, not just in abstract and aspirational terms. What we need > are politics based on people. We need something with membership that will > maintain some coherence between elections and generate recognizably good > advocates that can run for office and--most importantly--plenty of > volunteers to take the case to the wider society. Some years back, when > the Green party won over 104,000 votes in this state, I put together a plan > to organize and field teams that could cover the state, establishing viable > little groups where the vote was in double digits and cultivating a > statewide network that would circulate speakers and engage in regular > public forums and events. > > The old Socialists and other insurgents established membership bodies that > amounted to roughly a tenth of their voting strength. Out of over 104,000 > voters, we could have put together an organization of several thousand and, > with the right work, been able to get a significantly higher vote total in > the next election. But the self-elected "leaders" feared something of > which they would not be guaranteed control. And the bulk of them have > since slithered off to the Democrats. > > As I've pointed out repeatedly, there is no reason why various groups > couldn't cobble together a united electoral front at the local, state, > regional or national that could do something like this. Make it > people-focused and have confidence that good politics will always prevail > in a fair fight out in the open. > > > > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] It’s Time for the Left to Build a Force Outside the Democratic Party | Left Voice
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * We seem to be so far down the rabbit hole of money-centered corporate-consumerist politics. Raising money to open offices and hire canvassers is no alternative to a system based on that circular process. The alternative to running as Democrats is not running LIKE Democrats. A challenge to the structure of electoral politics has to be reflected in our practice, not just in abstract and aspirational terms. What we need are politics based on people. We need something with membership that will maintain some coherence between elections and generate recognizably good advocates that can run for office and--most importantly--plenty of volunteers to take the case to the wider society. Some years back, when the Green party won over 104,000 votes in this state, I put together a plan to organize and field teams that could cover the state, establishing viable little groups where the vote was in double digits and cultivating a statewide network that would circulate speakers and engage in regular public forums and events. The old Socialists and other insurgents established membership bodies that amounted to roughly a tenth of their voting strength. Out of over 104,000 voters, we could have put together an organization of several thousand and, with the right work, been able to get a significantly higher vote total in the next election. But the self-elected "leaders" feared something of which they would not be guaranteed control. And the bulk of them have since slithered off to the Democrats. As I've pointed out repeatedly, there is no reason why various groups couldn't cobble together a united electoral front at the local, state, regional or national that could do something like this. Make it people-focused and have confidence that good politics will always prevail in a fair fight out in the open. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] It’s Time for the Left to Build a Force Outside the Democratic Party | Left Voice
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * But then if such is the case, what is the alternative right now to running candidates as Dems? Like, what should we actually be doing right now, if not knocking on doors for Comrade Sanders? I also think Sanders will not deliver anything that supporters expect given the circumstances. But without a concrete alternative I don't know where else to spend energy. On Wed, Feb 5, 2020, 4:21 PM Louis Proyect wrote: > On 2/5/20 3:57 PM, A.R. G wrote: > > I assume organizers of such an initiative would need to start by raising > > a significant amount of money simply to open offices, recruit > > canvassers, do election research, etc. And after that they would need to > > be able to compete within the corporate media landscape. It is an > > enormous undertaking and many smaller parties have already failed at it. > > How does one build such a party? > > > The folks advocating this are old school Leninists. They are trying to > launch a new party based on the success of their Argentine comrades, > even though I think that objective circumstances and a flawed > methodology militate against it. > > For me, the only slender thread of a new left party emerging in this > period is if by some miracle Howie Hawkins's campaign begins to exploit > the certain disappointment of the Democratic Party in 2020 that has been > foreshadowed by the Iowa debacle. > > Opportunities to build a new party to the left of the Democrats are far > and few between. Favorable conditions existed in the 1960s when a > Democratic president was carrying out one of the most brutal colonial > wars of the 20th century. Formations like the Peace and Freedom Party > had great promise but sectarian groups derailed them. > > Who knows? Perhaps if the failure of the Sandernista movement exceeds > even my own expectations, the 60,000 plus DSA membership might provide > the impetus for something new. There's maybe a chance of 1 in 100 but > that's better than none. > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] It’s Time for the Left to Build a Force Outside the Democratic Party | Left Voice
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 2/5/20 3:57 PM, A.R. G wrote: I assume organizers of such an initiative would need to start by raising a significant amount of money simply to open offices, recruit canvassers, do election research, etc. And after that they would need to be able to compete within the corporate media landscape. It is an enormous undertaking and many smaller parties have already failed at it. How does one build such a party? The folks advocating this are old school Leninists. They are trying to launch a new party based on the success of their Argentine comrades, even though I think that objective circumstances and a flawed methodology militate against it. For me, the only slender thread of a new left party emerging in this period is if by some miracle Howie Hawkins's campaign begins to exploit the certain disappointment of the Democratic Party in 2020 that has been foreshadowed by the Iowa debacle. Opportunities to build a new party to the left of the Democrats are far and few between. Favorable conditions existed in the 1960s when a Democratic president was carrying out one of the most brutal colonial wars of the 20th century. Formations like the Peace and Freedom Party had great promise but sectarian groups derailed them. Who knows? Perhaps if the failure of the Sandernista movement exceeds even my own expectations, the 60,000 plus DSA membership might provide the impetus for something new. There's maybe a chance of 1 in 100 but that's better than none. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] It’s Time for the Left to Build a Force Outside the Democratic Party | Left Voice
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I've seen several pieces arguing this and the Iowa debacle really is making me explore the topic more. But what, in practice, does this look like? What does it mean to "build a force outside the Democratic Party"? Like, what is Step 1? I assume organizers of such an initiative would need to start by raising a significant amount of money simply to open offices, recruit canvassers, do election research, etc. And after that they would need to be able to compete within the corporate media landscape. It is an enormous undertaking and many smaller parties have already failed at it. How does one build such a party? Amith R. Gupta On Tue, Feb 4, 2020 at 7:23 PM Louis Proyect via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > > https://www.leftvoice.org/its-time-for-the-left-to-build-a-force-outside-the-democratic-party > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] It’s Time for the Left to Build a Force Outside the Democratic Party | Left Voice
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * https://www.leftvoice.org/its-time-for-the-left-to-build-a-force-outside-the-democratic-party _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
