Re: [Marxism] End the “Green” Delusions: Industrial-scale Renewable Energy is Fossil Fuel+

2018-05-15 Thread Michael Marking via Marxism
f energy; mass transit and re-introduction of
railroads can save even more. Proper planning, permitting, and zoning
can lead to more efficient (and more pleasant) cities and towns. And so
on...

The biggest gains require changes in society itself, they attack the
capitalist system. They require control over production by the people,
not by the unfettered pursuit of profit. They require a better way of
governance. 

War is one of the biggest consumers of energy and other resources, and
one of the largest causes of environmental degradation – never mind the
human cost. Eisenhower hinted at the opportunity cost of war in terms of
equipment, but it is more than that: a fighter jet can use thousands of
pounds of fuel per hour. How many homes would that heat? 

Conservation, in all its various forms, would yield far more than new
forms of generation. There is no profit to a capitalist from oil left in
the ground; there is no capital accumulation from coal unmined.
Reduction of consumption would give us even more: we’d need fewer solar
panels, fewer wind turbines. With mass transit and decent railroads and
better cities, there would be less energy used, and more free time for
the people. A capitalist might not be able to afford to send his used
car to Mars: maybe it would only go to the Moon. It should be
unsurprising that the most important way to reduce environmental damage
– conservation – is ignored in a capitalist system. 

(Musk is a darling among capitalist environmentalists, because electric
is better than fossil fuel. But we hardly hear about the environmental
problems attendant to the batteries and other components. I must
acknowledge, however, that it was clever of him to meld solar power and
battery powered vehicles: the lithium cells which are no longer good
enough for a Tesla can profitably be installed into a home. But what
will we do when those in homes start to wear out?)

Certainly some problems are technical, and socialism won’t strike at
their roots. Not only wind towers use heavy metals. Semiconductor
manufacturing (including the creation of most photovoltaic cells) is
capital intensive, subject to significant economies of scale which make
small, locally managed factories impractical or at least quite
problematic. It takes a lot of extraction to garner the quantities of
rare earth metals needed to make flat panel and other displays. Maybe
recycling is feasible, but it won’t for a long time be feasible in a
capitalist system. Too long. 

Yes we need solar and wind and other ways to prevent continued
environmental destruction. But a necessary adjunct to those technologies
must be the restructuring of society itself. 

Note: It once was the case that a solar cell had to be used for from
three to five years to recover the energy needed for its manufacture;
maybe the numbers are different nowadays. After that interval, the power
generated is carbon free. We could, theoretically, create a system, with
only renewable power used to manufacture the equipment, that the entire
manufacturing cycle is carbon neutral. Similarly, we could,
theoretically, create an environment where all of the rare earths and
other toxic or scarce constituents might be recycled. Note that scrap
steel and aluminum, even in today’s economic system, displace a lot of
mining which would otherwise be needed to supply industrial needs. Of
course, this would entail moving away from the market pricing of such
materials. 


On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 07:40:33AM -0700, DW via Marxism wrote:
> Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 07:40:33 -0700
> From: DW via Marxism <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>
> To: michael marking <mark...@tatanka.com>
> Subject: Re: [Marxism] End the “Green” Delusions: Industrial-scale
>  Renewable Energy is Fossil Fuel+
> 
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Re: [Marxism] End the “Green” Delusions: Industrial-scale Renewable Energy is Fossil Fuel+

2018-05-13 Thread DW via Marxism
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https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/3797-end-the-green-delusions-industrial-scale-renewable-energy-is-fossil-fuel



Louis:
An interesting article whose case would be better made if he dealt with
other alternative energy sources besides wind such as solar power. Also, by
referring to the need for steel and concrete in the production and
installation of wind turbines as damaging to the environment, it raises the
whole question of whether any time of energy production is "pure".

I actually agree with Louis' critique here. It was sort of a blanket
condemnation of...what? Industrialization? Energy production? Still, it was
an interesting article. He offers absolutely no alternative to what he is
criticizing. Perhaps he is one of those green/reactionaries that thinks
development is the only answer and we return to a late 19th Century form of
agriculture where 4 out 5 people work behind a horse drawn plow? Who knows?

However, having said that, his points ARE well taken. In the most
sophisticated low-carbon energy debates, this is one of the major issues
revolving around the various energy schemes the different sides put
forward. Compared with nuclear energy for example, land based wind power
uses around 8 times the rare earths, concrete (heavily natural gas
manufacturing techniques to make it), aluminum, steel, copper etc etc.
There are real issues with pollution and health with the Chinese dominated
solar cell production (all of which is manageable, or could be). I suspect
what the author is doing is raise some red flags with regards to the highly
Pollyanna view of so-called "Green energy" almost universally ignored. For
this, he should be applauded.

David
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Re: [Marxism] End the “Green” Delusions: Industrial-scale Renewable Energy is Fossil Fuel+

2018-05-13 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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On 5/12/18 8:36 PM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:



https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/3797-end-the-green-delusions-industrial-scale-renewable-energy-is-fossil-fuel




An interesting article whose case would be better made if he dealt with 
other alternative energy sources besides wind such as solar power. Also, 
by referring to the need for steel and concrete in the production and 
installation of wind turbines as damaging to the environment, it raises 
the whole question of whether any time of energy production is "pure".

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