Re: [Marxism] Israel is being defeated in Gaza as it was in Lebanon

2014-07-24 Thread DW via Marxism
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Well, Lüko,
this is not entirely accurate. There are some Irish and Puerto Rican's who
might disagree.

Secondly, it's a ridiculous statement anyway: that in the end the people
win. Wowso? We're supposed to sit back and wait? So far the
Palestinians have been fighting for almost 80 years (if we use the 1936
Uprising against the British as a starting date for Palestinian
nationalism). It doesn't look like the Zionist state is going anywhere
soon. I reject the idea that because it is perceived as inevitable that
the Crusader state will be overturned that someone this makes everything
ok...which is what you are implying. In fact nothing is inevitable. That
most, but not all such states have been is not a guide for future results,
at all.

David

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Re: [Marxism] Israel is being defeated in Gaza as it was in Lebanon,

2014-07-23 Thread Michael Karadjis via Marxism

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-Original Message- 
From: Andrew Pollack via Marxism


Finally there's the question of Resistance supporters such as 
Hezbollah,
Syria and Iran, whose support is limited to training and material aid, 
and

certainly has nothing to do with a strategy to mobilize the Arab and
Iranian masses. And of course at the moment all three are involved in
genocidal attacks on the Syrian component of those masses.

The idea of these three along with the Palestinians as the Resistance 
or the Rejectionists is completely laughable. It is true that Iran has 
in the past provided weaponry to Hamas, and that Hezbollah's past 
conflicts with Israel, particularly in 2006, were at least in part 
motivated by opening another front to help Palestine. The Syrian regime 
has nothing to do with  this dynamic; it has spent decades slaughtering 
the Palestinian resistance, assassinating its leaders, trying to destroy 
and take over its organisations, and while allowing some to have 
headquarters in Syria, making damned sure, with an iron fist, that none 
of them ever got anywhere near the occupied Golan border to do any 
resistance there. Israel fully understands and appreciates this and has 
said so clearly.


As for support to the Palestinians in Gaza, states alleged to be part of 
an imaginary pro-imperialist or perhaps non-rejectionist (whatever 
that means) camp, such as Qatar, have certainly provided far more 
concrete aid than the Syrian regime.


As for Iranian support, it was cut off in 2012 when Hamas made the 
principled decision to support the Syrian uprising, citing the fact that 
the Syrian people were undergoing a struggle similar to their own. Iran 
put its sectarian/geopolitical alliance with the Syrian 
counterrevolution ahead of any support to Palestinian resistance. This 
also strained Hamas-Hezbollah relations, being on opposite sides in 
Syria, but Hamas made sure to try to maintain a working relationship 
with Hezbollah inside Lebanon, in the interests of the safety of the 
Palestinian refugees, who largely live in similar areas to Hezbollah's 
Shia base.


But as Andy said, even Hezbollah is irrelevant to the situation now; 
with both Iranian troops and Hezbollah fully engaged in the main 
counterrevolutionary war in the region in defense of tyranny, the time 
for Israel to launch another savaging of Gaza was perfect. World 
attention focused on ISIS' sudden surge in Iraq also made the time 
perfect. As people joke now, Hezbollah will come to the aid of the 
Palestinian resistance via Homs, Aleppo, Damascus and perhaps even Iraq, 
where Hezbollah was rumoured to be sending some forces to fight ISIS 
(and the Sunni rebellion) on behalf of its Iranian master. That's a 
pretty long road to Palestine.


Let's be perfectly clear - all the talk of resistance in the region is 
a giant pot of shit. The one and only resistance is Hamas and the 
Palestinians it leads and its allies. The other alleged members of this 
ex-group were fairweather friends at best. And whatever its faults, of 
which there are plenty, Hamas' decision to back the Syrian uprising 
represents something that would have been good to see from the Cubans, 
Venezuelans etc - seeking allies among the masses rather than from among 
the class enemy.




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Re: [Marxism] Israel is being defeated in Gaza as it was in Lebanon,

2014-07-22 Thread DW via Marxism
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I don't like articles like this. It give a false sense of 'victory' based
on a totally faulty, wishful-thinking analysis.

The author writes

  Israel has so far admitted to 25 dead soldiers in just four days of
ground operations. That’s a higher daily casualty rate than it suffered in
Lebanon.

  Had Netanyahu known that would be the price, he would not likely have
launched this foolish and criminal slaughter in Gaza.

This betrays a lack of understanding of Zionist gov't politics and the
reasons and...price...these gov'ts will pay to achieve what ever goal they
think is the target.

The target is, in fact, to punish the people of Gaza for tolerating Hamas.
It has nothing to do with wiping out Hamas, though that is for public,
mostly western, consumption. This is prat of the continual program to
suppress and Bantustand the whole of the Palestinian nation.

In fact 25 dead soldiers is irrelevant to local Israeli politics except
to the degree that they are paraded as martyrs. Yes, Israel uses the
'martyr' tactic as well.

To measure this as a success or failure based on the criteria laid out in
this article does one any good...least of the people of Gaza under Israeli
assault.


David

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Re: [Marxism] Israel is being defeated in Gaza as it was in Lebanon,

2014-07-22 Thread Andrew Pollack via Marxism
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Totally agree with David.

On Facebook I've been sharing reports on number of IOF soldiers killed;
mention of supposedly improved Resistance training and weaponry; and
Resistance operations.

It APPEARS that Hamas et al. are not melting away to fight another day as
they did in past wars. But it also appears that they are as of yet either
unable or unwilling to exact significant casualties on the IOF.

This gets to broader strategic questions. How large are the Resistance
forces? They certainly are not militias based in workplaces or
neighborhoods, but rather a combined conventional/guerrilla force run by a
bourgeois national liberation party in a colonial country. What does that
say about the involvement of Palestinians in the battles?

Then there's the question of the Resistance missiles, rockets and mortars:
how they're used and to what political end.

Finally there's the question of Resistance supporters such as Hezbollah,
Syria and Iran, whose support is limited to training and material aid, and
certainly has nothing to do with a strategy to mobilize the Arab and
Iranian masses. And of course at the moment all three are involved in
genocidal attacks on the Syrian component of those masses.


On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 11:05 AM, DW via Marxism 
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:

 ==
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 ==


 I don't like articles like this. It give a false sense of 'victory' based
 on a totally faulty, wishful-thinking analysis.

 The author writes

   Israel has so far admitted to 25 dead soldiers in just four days of
 ground operations. That’s a higher daily casualty rate than it suffered in
 Lebanon.

   Had Netanyahu known that would be the price, he would not likely have
 launched this foolish and criminal slaughter in Gaza.

 This betrays a lack of understanding of Zionist gov't politics and the
 reasons and...price...these gov'ts will pay to achieve what ever goal they
 think is the target.

 The target is, in fact, to punish the people of Gaza for tolerating Hamas.
 It has nothing to do with wiping out Hamas, though that is for public,
 mostly western, consumption. This is prat of the continual program to
 suppress and Bantustand the whole of the Palestinian nation.

 In fact 25 dead soldiers is irrelevant to local Israeli politics except
 to the degree that they are paraded as martyrs. Yes, Israel uses the
 'martyr' tactic as well.

 To measure this as a success or failure based on the criteria laid out in
 this article does one any good...least of the people of Gaza under Israeli
 assault.


 David
 
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Re: [Marxism] Israel is being defeated in Gaza as it was in Lebanon,

2014-07-22 Thread Dennis Brasky via Marxism
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Would you also say that the Vietnamese claim of victory in 1975 after
suffering 4 million dead, widespread birth defects from Agent Orange,
unexploded bombs killing people to this day, and widespread destruction
leaving their nation an economic basket case unable to serve as a positive
model for other former colonial nations were also guilty of
wishful-thinking? Was their victory merely Pyrrhic as Chomsky has
suggested?

The fight against Israel is, unfortunately a long process - made longer by
the derailment of The Arab Spring - because of their military superiority
over the combined Arab world. The Palestinians don't have a military weapon
to force the apartheid regime to the negotiating table. Neither do they
have the social weapon of a powerful and strategically-placed working class
that can bring the regime to its knees, as in apartheid South Africa. It's
an achingly slow political process involving what the Israelis correctly
call de-legitimization - increasing worldwide revulsion with their
policies and thus their diplomatic isolation. Because of the crucial nature
of US military, economic, and diplomatic support, we here in the US carry
the extra heavy burden of making the case against Israel in the face of
total mainstream sycophancy and the $$$ of The Lobby.

After what the bastards did in Lebanon in 2006, dropping over one million
cluster bombs as they were about to start a ceasefire, the slaughter of
1300 Gazans in late 2008/early 2009, and now today, it's natural to ask -
how much more of this shit is necessary before masses of Americans wake up
and demand a change in policy. I've been fighting battles against Zionist
crimes for over four decades and it's frustrating as hell, but viewed with
the long-term perspective, even small steps forward - victories - bring
us closer to the final goal.

On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 11:05 AM, DW via Marxism 
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:


 I don't like articles like this. It give a false sense of 'victory' based
 on a totally faulty, wishful-thinking analysis.



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Re: [Marxism] Israel is being defeated in Gaza as it was in Lebanon

2014-07-22 Thread Mike Sola via Marxism

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As I understand it, the Israeli military has a gag order on reporting any attacks on military 
installations in Israel. Thus one would not know whether or not Hamas has attacked them.

On 7/22/2014 12:23 PM, DW via Marxism wrote:

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Dennis writes:

Would you also say that the Vietnamese claim of victory in 1975 after
suffering 4 million dead, widespread birth defects from Agent Orange,
unexploded bombs killing people to this day, and widespread destruction
leaving their nation an economic basket case unable to serve as a positive
model for other former colonial nations were also guilty of
wishful-thinking? Was their victory merely Pyrrhic as Chomsky has
suggested?

Terrible analogy, Dennis. The Vietnamese *won*. The Palestinians? Not so
much. I think the correct analogy here would be the Ted Offensive, which
was a lost by the NLF but proceeded the ultimate victory about 8 years
later. And we can discuss the Tet Offensive in this light perhaps later
since one can make the argument that though the offensive was totally
smashed, the costs to the U.S. and their S. Vietnamese puppets was
something they *may* of never recovered from, but in Vietnam and
domestically, in the U.S.

I don't see this as the same or as so analogous to the Ted Offensive. At
least not yet. Comparisons with Lebanon are apt though. But here you had an
abject *military* defeat for the IDF. They achieved none of their goals
though, as expressed in Israel, the Katyusha rockets *did* stop being
lobbed into Israel. Why the Hezbollah not once aimed those rockets at
Israeli military fortifications goes the stupid politics of these
resistance organizations which we can also discuss. [IDF forces are
concentrated and bunched up formation in known assembly points right
outside Gaza, *without Iron Dome protection*!!!].

And Dennis, you are correct, the situation of Palestinians is completely
fucked in terms of choices in strategy and tactics given the military and
geographic reality of both Gaza and the West Bank. No doubt about it.

But to 'claim' victory might be good for the Gaza street (which makes sense
*there*), while Israel STILL occupies parts of the Strip  and continued
*unabated* is simply not a victory. When Israel withdraws, after the
destruction of whole sections of the Stip and the murder of perhaps
thousands, then 'victory' can be discussed. Until then it *disorients*
those fighting in solidarity with Gaza specifically and for Palestine in
general. I will not circulate such poorly proclamatory crap as that article
in question.

David
(also fighting for over 40 years against Zionism).

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Re: [Marxism] Israel is being defeated in Gaza as it was in Lebanon

2014-07-22 Thread Sheldon Ranz via Marxism
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Certainly from Israeli sources, but Hamas would not observe such a gag
order.  Couldn't Hamas launch such an attack and get someone from Al
Jazeera to report that?


On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 12:29 PM, Mike Sola via Marxism 
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:

 ==
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 ==


 As I understand it, the Israeli military has a gag order on reporting any
 attacks on military installations in Israel. Thus one would not know
 whether or not Hamas has attacked them.

 On 7/22/2014 12:23 PM, DW via Marxism wrote:

 ==
 Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
 ==


 Dennis writes:

 Would you also say that the Vietnamese claim of victory in 1975 after
 suffering 4 million dead, widespread birth defects from Agent Orange,
 unexploded bombs killing people to this day, and widespread destruction
 leaving their nation an economic basket case unable to serve as a positive
 model for other former colonial nations were also guilty of
 wishful-thinking? Was their victory merely Pyrrhic as Chomsky has
 suggested?

 Terrible analogy, Dennis. The Vietnamese *won*. The Palestinians? Not so
 much. I think the correct analogy here would be the Ted Offensive, which
 was a lost by the NLF but proceeded the ultimate victory about 8 years
 later. And we can discuss the Tet Offensive in this light perhaps later
 since one can make the argument that though the offensive was totally
 smashed, the costs to the U.S. and their S. Vietnamese puppets was
 something they *may* of never recovered from, but in Vietnam and
 domestically, in the U.S.

 I don't see this as the same or as so analogous to the Ted Offensive. At
 least not yet. Comparisons with Lebanon are apt though. But here you had
 an
 abject *military* defeat for the IDF. They achieved none of their goals
 though, as expressed in Israel, the Katyusha rockets *did* stop being
 lobbed into Israel. Why the Hezbollah not once aimed those rockets at
 Israeli military fortifications goes the stupid politics of these
 resistance organizations which we can also discuss. [IDF forces are
 concentrated and bunched up formation in known assembly points right
 outside Gaza, *without Iron Dome protection*!!!].

 And Dennis, you are correct, the situation of Palestinians is completely
 fucked in terms of choices in strategy and tactics given the military and
 geographic reality of both Gaza and the West Bank. No doubt about it.

 But to 'claim' victory might be good for the Gaza street (which makes
 sense
 *there*), while Israel STILL occupies parts of the Strip  and continued
 *unabated* is simply not a victory. When Israel withdraws, after the
 destruction of whole sections of the Stip and the murder of perhaps
 thousands, then 'victory' can be discussed. Until then it *disorients*
 those fighting in solidarity with Gaza specifically and for Palestine in
 general. I will not circulate such poorly proclamatory crap as that
 article
 in question.

 David
 (also fighting for over 40 years against Zionism).
 
 Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
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Re: [Marxism] Israel is being defeated in Gaza as it was in Lebanon

2014-07-22 Thread Lüko Willms via Marxism
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on Dienstag, 22. Juli 2014 at 18:23, DW via Marxism wrote:

  The Vietnamese *won*. The Palestinians? Not so
 much. I think the correct analogy here would be the Ted Offensive, which
 was a lost by the NLF but proceeded the ultimate victory about 8 years
 later.
  
   Let me quote from a recent short note by Fidel Castro An unheard of 
provocation on the US-war drive against Russia and the Israeli terror in Gaza: 

 At the same time, coinciding with the Malaysian aircraft crime,
 Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, head of the nuclear
 state, ordered his army to invade the Gaza Strip, where, over the
 last several days, hundreds of Palestinians have died, many of them
 children. The President of the United States supported the action,
 describing the repugnant act as legitimate defense.

 Obama does not support David against Goliath, but rather Goliath
 against David. As is known, young men and women from the Israeli
 people, well prepared for productive work, are being exposed to a
 death without honor, without glory. I am not aware of the
 Palestinian?s military strategy, but I know that a combatant
 prepared to die can defend even the ruins of a building, as long as
 he has his rifle, as the heroic defenders of Stalingrad demonstrated.

  The Israel government wants the Arabs in the Gaza strip to suffer the fate of 
the uprising in the Jewish Ghetto in German-occupied Warsaw, but it might well 
be that they rather encounter what the German army suffered at Stalingrad. 


 
Cheers, 
Lüko Willms


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