Re: [Marxism] JeSuisCharlie???
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Clay Claiborne said: Thank you Charles. After reading how Charlie Hebdo has had an obsessive anti-Islamic focus since 9/11/2001 and seeing millions of people unwittingly uniting with that history under the popular hash tag #JeSuisCharlie (I'm with Charlie) in the name of freedom of speech, I sought to fashion an effective agitational response that would sharply point out what was wrong with raising this slogan in defense of free speech. So: #JeSuisCharlie? Its one thing to support the Nazi's right to march. It is quite another to march with them. and #JeSuisCharlie? Its one thing to support the KKK's freedom of speech. It is quite another say Je Suis KKK. Since the medium of this campaign is twitter, I had to fit my agitation into 140 characters or less. I suspect Ken's nuanced and long winded writing style doesn't understand twitter too well. I posted it here because I think it is a good example of political agitation and education on twitter, not to start an inflamed discussion on this list about the differences between Charlie and Adolph. Ken Hiebert replies: Thank you for your explanatory remarks. It is no credit to me that I have failed to adopt social media such as Facebook and Twitter. It is to your credit that you are taking the battle of ideas to those media. Whatever your intention, when I saw your message I could see us heading into a heated and not very enlightening exchange. I wrote a hasty response, hoping to head off such an exchange. And for the moment, it looks as if we have avoided that. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] JeSuisCharlie???
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * exactly. - Original Message - From: Clay Claiborne via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu To: Charles Faulkner lacena...@comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 7:35:06 AM Subject: [Marxism] JeSuisCharlie??? POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * #*JeSuisCharlie* https://twitter.com/clayclai/status/555165483138174976? Its one thing to support the Nazi's right to march. It is quite another to march with them Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com Linux Beach Productions Venice, CA 90291 (310) 581-1536 Read my blogs at the Linux Beach http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/ http://wlcentral.org/user/2965/track _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/lacenaire%40comcast.net _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] JeSuisCharlie???
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Thank you Charles. After reading how Charlie Hebdo has had an obsessive anti-Islamic focus since 9/11/2001 and seeing millions of people unwittingly uniting with that history under the popular hash tag #JeSuisCharlie (I'm with Charlie) in the name of freedom of speech, I sought to fashion an effective agitational response that would sharply point out what was wrong with raising this slogan in defense of free speech. So: #JeSuisCharlie? Its one thing to support the Nazi's right to march. It is quite another to march with them. and #JeSuisCharlie? Its one thing to support the KKK's freedom of speech. It is quite another say Je Suis KKK. Since the medium of this campaign is twitter, I had to fit my agitation into 140 characters or less. I suspect Ken's nuanced and long winded writing style doesn't understand twitter too well. I posted it here because I think it is a good example of political agitation and education on twitter, not to start an inflamed discussion on this list about the differences between Charlie and Adolph. Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com Linux Beach Productions Venice, CA 90291 (310) 581-1536 Read my blogs at the Linux Beach http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/ http://wlcentral.org/user/2965/track _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] JeSuisCharlie???
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Clay Claiborne said: #*JeSuisCharlie* https://twitter.com/clayclai/status/555165483138174976? Its one thing to support the Nazi's right to march. It is quite another to march with them Ken Hiebert replies: Such a remark will inflame the discussion and add little to our understanding. Based on what I have seen I am inlined to think that the cartoons, whatever the intention was, were stupid, misguided and lent themselves to an Islamophobic view. That is a long way from being Nazi. In any case, do we really support the right of Nazis to march? I, and I think others on this list, do not support government measures to prevent them from marching. We do support mobilizations of working people and targeted minorities to prevent the Nazis from marching. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] JeSuisCharlie???,
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * In any case, do we really support the right of Nazis to march? I, and I think others on this list, do not support government measures to prevent them from marching. We do support mobilizations of working people and targeted minorities to prevent the Nazis from marching. No, we don't. We *oppose* or should the State's banning of marches and political currents based on a supposed 'anti-racist' position. But this doesn't mean we defend and think it's OK for Nazi's to march. We don't support 'free speech for fascists' as their marching is a form of organizing and terror and we defend ourselves through counter-mobilizing to run them off the streets. I remember some comrades in the SWP back when the Nazis were planning for a march through the heavily Jewish section of a Chicago suburb (with a large number of Holocaust survivors) argued, correctly IMO, that we 'want them to march'...so the community can kick their asses out of town. But we don't want the bosses government to do this since it would be used against the workers and communities of the oppressed. David _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] JeSuisCharlie???
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * i think clay's message is an example of stating an extreme to establish a principle, not make a direct comparison. allowing doesn't mean joining is how i took clay's message. - Original Message - From: Ken Hiebert via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu To: Charles Faulkner lacena...@comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 8:55:35 AM Subject: Re: [Marxism] JeSuisCharlie??? POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Clay Claiborne said: #*JeSuisCharlie* https://twitter.com/clayclai/status/555165483138174976? Its one thing to support the Nazi's right to march. It is quite another to march with them Ken Hiebert replies: Such a remark will inflame the discussion and add little to our understanding. Based on what I have seen I am inlined to think that the cartoons, whatever the intention was, were stupid, misguided and lent themselves to an Islamophobic view. That is a long way from being Nazi. In any case, do we really support the right of Nazis to march? I, and I think others on this list, do not support government measures to prevent them from marching. We do support mobilizations of working people and targeted minorities to prevent the Nazis from marching. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/lacenaire%40comcast.net _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] JeSuisCharlie???,
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Its perfectly okay if you want to branch my original post off into this tangent as long as you recognize the fact that the statement: #JeSuisCharlie? Its one thing to support the Nazis right to march and quite another thing to march with them. Does not imply that anyone, even the writer, does in fact support the Nazis' right to march, only that there is a big political difference between between these two stands. Further, this was directed at people who probably do support the Nazis's right to march but won't march with them but are now doing both with the extreme Islamaphobic Charlie Hebdo. Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com Linux Beach Productions Venice, CA 90291 (310) 581-1536 Read my blogs at the Linux Beach http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/ http://wlcentral.org/user/2965/track _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
