Re: [MBZ] Watch Quality

[Billr]

FWIW - I have a Rolex valued at @ $4000, BUT I paid $65 for it 40 years ago.
It sits in a drawer because I got so sick of it after wearing it for 20+
years and the thing just wouldn't die.  Could be that is one of the things
that started my love for fine craftsmanship and good parts.  Got my first MB
right after that.

BillR

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Rich Thomas
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 2:31 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Watch Quality

Why would you/whoever spend $2k on a watch?

Not being a smartass, I just want to know what the thought process is.  
I have found that there are plenty of places to get the time if you need it,
and I very rarely need to know what the time is when there is no source
around.  I can appreciate the engineering and craftsmanship of a fine
timepiece, which I guess is part of the appeal.  But the digital clock you
get in a Happy Meal keeps better time than yours.

--R

Gary Hurst wrote:
> i have a 2 year old $2,000 omega watch.  it's running slow about 15
> seconds a day over roughly hte past year
>   


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Re: [MBZ] bounces

[Billr]

Improper use of the term.  Sorry.  I just noticed they are re being held for
review.  Am I ok with stuff now?
BillR 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Kaleb C. Striplin
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 12:38 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] bounces

What kind of bounces?  I know your posts are no longer coming from your
subscribed email address though.

Billr wrote:
> Kaleb - I just had to reinstall MS Office Professional and suddenly am 
> getting bounces all over the place.  I thought I had everything the 
> same, but I guess not.  Any clue as to what I need to change?
> 
> BillR
>

[MBZ] OT: free will, etc. (was: Mercedes Quality)

[Steve MacSween]

on 1/14/07 5:13 PM, OK Don at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I read an
> article recently that was questioning how much "free will" we actually
> have, and how much is an illusion. It looks like more is programmed in
> than we like to think.

If you want a stinging critique on how 'free' our consumer/consumption-based
system really is, find someone who emigrated here from the countries of the
former Soviet Union, AND is old enough to remember the old system AND
experienced their opened-up society prior to emigrating here.

If you have any Disney-esque conceptions about our society (and I am
speaking of both the U.S. and Canada when I say that), you won't like their
take on us at all.

In a nutshell, they feel our current state of personal freedom is a joke,
our economy is about to self-destruct, and our society is extremely corrupt.

Mac

Re: [MBZ] 123 Blower Motor failure - not the fuse

[andrew strasfogel]

We let it sit a day and it is working again in all positions.  I am thinking
worn brushes.  Any other ideas?

On 1/14/07, Marshall Booth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


andrew strasfogel wrote:
> The blower motor on her 1985 300 CD has ceased to operate in one fell
> swoop.  I replaced the fuse, but this had  no effect.   Before I
> purchase a replacement motor, I should ask whether there is a relay
> that might be at fault rather than the motor itself.  Anybody?

The two most common causes of what you describe (after blown fuse in the
aux fuse box if so equipped) are seized blower bearings or worn brushes.
If these are both fine, then the blower control box may have failed
(although that's rather rare). Does the blower work when you engage
defrost? Try tapping it. Does moving the ignition key back from position
II toward position I result in the blower motor engaging? Ignition
switch failures were a known cause of the blower not working.

Marshall
--
Marshall Booth Ph.D.
Ass't Prof. (ret.)
Univ of Pittsburgh School of Medicine
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [MBZ] management (was: Mercedes Quality vs Toyota)

[Peter Frederick]

True, to a point, but when the manager cannot understand the process, 
they are worse than useless.  I've not seen the facilitation part much, 
just the micromanagement and tantrum part.  If they cannot do the work, 
how is all the shades of hell are they going to be able to tell if it's 
being done correctly?


Technical people, in my experience, make vastly better managers than 
non-technical people, but they are somewhat less than interested in the 
meetings and paperwork.  The folk that like paperwork and office 
politics make horrible managers, as they haven't a clue as to what they 
are supposed to be managing, and in my experience cannot learn it.


I stick to the old German way -- the best at the job should be managing 
it, not someone who cannot figure it out.  I strongly believe that the 
notion that management can be performed as "facilitation" is an urban 
myth.


Just my $0.02

Peter

Re: [MBZ] 124 alarm problems

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

Only problem is the lights will still be flashing on and off.

Darrell W. Sigmon wrote:

The easiest way is to disconnect the alarm horn...

Ralph W wrote:


The alarm in my '87 300TD seems to have a mind of it's own every day or two the 
alarm will go off for no apparent reason. Does anyone know what causes this? As 
an alternative how can I disable the alarm? I really don't need an alarm on a 
20 year old car where I live. I checked the fuse box and couldn't find any 
mention of the alarm. Does it have it's own fuse somewhere alse? Any info would 
be appreciated by my neighbors.

Ralph W.
'83 300CD '82 300TD (2 parts wagons)
'90 300D   '01 E320 Wagon
'87 300TD
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--
Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK
 (2x) 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL,
 87 300SDL, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 84 190D 2.2,
 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250
http://www.striplin.net

[MBZ] Management

[Frederick W Moir]

I forget who said it, but it still applies:- "First class people hire 
first class people, second class people hire third class people".
This is not a class, gender or ethnic anything of an exclusionary 
nature, just about capability.

Fred Moir
Lynn MA
Diesel? Anyone?

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[Peter Frederick]

Unless I'm mistaken, this stuff is actually in the MBA curriculum.  Not 
that anyone actually pays attention to it, once in the corperate 
environment, cash balance today seems to rule, whatever the cost 
tomorrow.


Dimwit management is hardly an unknown, but seems to be more and more 
the norm these days.


Peter

Re: [MBZ] Waxing and.....

[RELNGSON]

> < application of Zymol car polish is with really hard rubbing. It's more a 
> "crust" than a haze.  It also removes the so-called dead paint in the 
> process.>>
> 
The only reason to use "polish" in the first place is to remove the oxidized 
paint. So, of course the cloth will get dirty fast and show paint color if you 
aren't polishing clear coat. No matter how hard you rub, just wax does not 
remove oxidation but just seals it in. If you are using a combination 
cleaner/wax (and you should not be) then of course you will see more on the 
rag. With 
either of these, you should do a panel at a time, removing the polish before it 
dries.

I used Zymol polish for a lot of years and it does a good job but it's just 
too much work. I switched to Griot's polish with a random orbital buffer and 
the result is the same with far less effort and time taken. I then wax with 
Zymol Carbon or one of the Griot's waxes by hand. One or two panels at a time 
and 
when the wax is applied, polish the excess off immediately. My metallic black 
C320 is a real challenge to maintain in street concours condition and using 
the best materials and tools make it so much easier.

One last item which almost warrants it's own post:

Some of you vintage MB owners who have been bleating about how crappy the 
"new" cars are compared to yours have not been keeping up. If you had been, you 
would know that the latest cars have vastly improved reliability in the last 
two years since MB really has gotten the message. And even though my '01 has 
had 
plenty of warranty work, it is still better than all my previous cars.

I still have faith in Mercedes after driving them since 1972 and believe me, 
it hasn't been all that easy. Even so, yesterday I placed a deposit order on 
an '08 C350.

Opposing views will now be heard.

RLE

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota

[Peter Frederick]

I don't know if that is true, but I worked for a promoter in 
Evansville, and made  a couple short notice trips to get the correct 
bottle of wine for the performers --- they did have good taste, by the 
way!


I heard stories about the jelly beans and taking all the red M&Ms out 
of a bowl full.


I'm inclined to believe your interpretation -- sure saves lots of 
trouble.


It's lots of fun to set up a major concert on an outdoor stage covered 
with recent rainwater


Quite rightly, Toyota will reject a whole shipping lot for anything 
incorrect.  If it's not packaged correctly, likely the parts aren't 
right, too, and they refuse to spend time fishing out the good from the 
bad.  Their contract specifies all good parts, not kinda sorta.


I can tell you some stories about a local electrical/electronics parts 
firm (now gone, of course) and the fits they had with subcontractors -- 
rather than fix their machinery to produce good parts, they'd keep 
sending the bad ones in in the hopes they would get accepted (this must 
be a British thing, as they found out during WWI that most of the big 
ship shells were duds -- if 1% of them didn't explode properly, the lot 
was rejected, but there were no rules about submitting more shells from 
that lot, so the maker just kept sending more until they passed.  
Result, of course, was that in action, particularly Jutland, about half 
were the equivalent of shooting scrap iron).


I don't think there is anything more irritating that having someone's 
eyes glaze over when you are trying to explain something they are 
responsible for to them


Peter

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota

[Jim Cathey]

...required the use of picograms to train staff...mandatory drug 
testing


Must have been some powerful stuff, if picograms were all that were
required!

-- Jim

[MBZ] management (was: Mercedes Quality vs Toyota)

[Allan Streib]

There's some sense in this, in a way.  A manager does not *do* the
work, they are supposed to facilitate its getting done.  They need to
know haw to navigate company politics, manage human resource issues,
assign tasks to the appropriate people, deal with interpersonal
conflicts in their staff, develop junior employees, etc.  All these
are things that people with a largely technical education abhor doing,
and are terrible at doing when they are forced into doing it.

It works if the managers delegate the technical decisions to the
technical people, and take their input seriously.  Sadly, many
managers don't have the self-confidence to really do this.

Allan

Peter Frederick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Nope.  A degree in science or engineering disqualifies one to be
> management -- "too close to the work".  You must have "independent
> thinking skills" and be able to blow the current psuedo-scientific
> smoke, whatever brand it is these days.  If you know how things
> actually work, you won't be able to make "critical decisions"
> (i.e. cut costs at whatever expense).
>
> Sad but true.  How many CEOs and upper management these days have
> degrees in English?  More than you would think, it's ballyhooed at
> universities as the road to success!
>
> Peter

-- 
1983 300D
1966 230

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota

[Peter Frederick]

Sadly Larry, it's worse.

The company I work as contract for is now back to "lean manufacturing" 
(aka cut costs any way you can, reguardless of the results) from Six 
Sigma.  Neither system will do anything but fix operations that 
actually MAKE something (plastic, ball bearings, fittings, parts, 
etc.).  NONE of the statistical process control tools have any other 
applications, and I've yet to see them applied to anything but people's 
behavior, the one thing that statistical process control tools will not 
ever help with.


The old "MBA" was intended for management tool training for well 
experienced people as they moved beyond the immediate job supervision 
point, and in the "old days" if you didn't have 10 years of low level 
supervisory or direct manufacturing experience, you could not get into 
the program.  Today, it's all about three piece suit and 
pseudo-statistical mumbo-jumbo with some odd ends of statistics tossed 
in (and yes, so far as I know, all the "business cases" are still made 
up).  My brother took a manufacturing management course a few years 
back as part of his associates in manufacturing engineering, and they 
were having the students average the time it took for machine tools to 
perform sequential operations in order to find the "mean" process time. 
 Utter and complete bafflegab, the mean time is the process that takes 
the longest, as it won't change.  Complete disassociation of 
statistical math from statistical theory..


The current MBA isn't worth the paper it's printed on, if you ask me.  
There doesn't seem to be any requirement that the recipients of said 
degree APPLY any of the stuff I know is in the textbooks!


Or as my sister says these days,  "human nature, what are you going to 
do?"


Makes me so mad I could spit -- I've given up trying to explain 
anything to my current boss, she just turns to the high school graduate 
and asks him and blows me off.


Peter

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[OK Don]

I've been reading some of the Waverly novels (out of embarrassment
from owning the whole set, and having read only a few) - Scott's
stories about 17th and 18th century England, and the commentary about
the circumstances, are sadly reflective of today -- it's surprising
how many situations and quotes could be puled from current newspapers.
Even when the folly of the past is documented, included in popular
fiction, and taught, it keeps being repeated over and over. I read an
article recently that was questioning how much "free will" we actually
have, and how much is an illusion. It looks like more is programmed in
than we like to think.

On 1/14/07, Gary Hurst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

things just repeat themselves.  no one learns anything.  there was
once this foreign adventure in a place called vietnam where i was told
we learned some great lesson, but now we see we've learned nothing.
the emperor never has any clothes and is always the last one to figure
it out.





--
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just
sit there."
Will Rogers
'90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager

Re: [MBZ] Booting your PC, which is what you should do......

[RELNGSON]

> < AutoAdminLogon
> in the registry.  You could probably google it.  If I remember correctly
> it's in localmachine\microsoft\windowsnt\currentversion\winlogon  you need
> to have that autoadminlogon key set to 1, and the defaultusername,
> defaultdomain and defaultpassword all set.>>
> 
If this isn't an argument for buying a Mac, well then.

Starting my out-of-date G4, I push the on button. When I return, AOL's free 
XM radio is running with the music of my choice and my Email program is ready 
to connect with a touch of the enter key.

RLE

Re: [MBZ] Watch Quality

[Chris Kueny]

From: "Rich Thomas" Subject: Re: [MBZ] Watch Quality



Why would you/whoever spend $2k on a watch?

I can appreciate the engineering and craftsmanship of a
fine timepiece, which I guess is part of the appeal.


It seems like maybe you don't appreciate it as much as others.  I hope you 
didn't actually eat the Happy Meal.



But the digital
clock you get in a Happy Meal keeps better time than yours.



Chris Kueny ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
78 Chevy Custom deluxe
'85 300TD
'02 Subaru Outback

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[Chris Kueny]

That is the exact thing I was thinking about.  It was a bit fuzzy, but there 
it is.  Thanks.


Chris K
Cayce, SC



Chris Kueny wrote:
Somebody who knows more than me should point out the difference in 
Japanese
QC vs German QC.  The Germans accept a certain amount of bad cars, and 
try

like heck to catch them and fix them before shipping them, while the
Japanese see any bad car as a problem in the process, and find a way to 
fix

the process so that problem just doesn't happen anymore.  Have I got that
right?



I'm not sure about Japanese vs. German, but the Japanese were much
quicker to pick up on statistical process control methods than Americans
were.  To put it very simply, if you imagine the specifications a
product has to meet as two vertical lines on a graph, and the actual
values of products coming off the line as a bell curve, American
companies would focus on finding the finished items that were in the
"tails" outside the specs and reworking them to make them good; while
Japanese companies would focus on refining the process to narrow the
curve so the "tails" were smaller and more of the finished product
landed inside the specs to begin with.  This is the basis of statistical
process control...you measure and graph things so you know where your
actual output is compared to the specs.  Is the average too high or too
low?  Is there too much variation?  This has to be applied to the whole
manufacturing process, from gaskets and bolts on up.

W. Edwards Deming was a big advocate of statistical process control.  He
had very limited success convincing American companies to change how
they did business, but after WWII he traveled to Japan.  People there
listened, and the rest is history.


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Re: [MBZ] Watch Quality

[Zeitgeist]

We eschew silly diamonds and the whole notion of diamonds as an object of
desire; what a crock.  My wife has a simple silver band, and I don't wear
anything.  Also, my $80 stainless Citizen watch works just fine for
indicating the passage of time.  I collect and maintain vintage German
mechanical clocks as a hobby, and love them for their style and
craftsmanship, but I don't have any need nor desire to rely upon them for
their original function; battery clocks are vastly superior.


Casey
Olympia, WA
Biodiesel: "I drive in a persistent vegetative state"
'87 300TD intercooler/propane #22 0-60mph 7.3sec (220k)
'84 300D (218k)
Gashuffer:
'89 Vanagon Wolfsburg Edition (187K)
'89 Audi 90Q (202k)
http://users.zhonka.net/zeitgeist/Misc/IMG_0171.JPG

Re: [MBZ] Watch Quality

[Sunil Hari]

Or get a manmade gem from Gemesis or Apollo Diamond - it's a real diamond,
minimal to zero flaws, colorless, at 1/2 the debeers thieving price.

On 1/14/07, Mitch Haley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




Sunil Hari wrote:
>
> Not to rant, but I really abhor DeBeers.

Get your girl to really abhor DeBeers, and then convince her
that cubic zirconia engagement rings are the ultimate revenge
against DeBeers. Something around 3 carats, with the same setting
you'd buy if it were a diamond. Buy yourself a Mercedes with the
savings. ;-)

Mitch.

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Sunil Hari
1992 300D 2.5T - 290Kmi.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
513-205-7474

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota

[Jeff Zedic]

I enjoy these threads about Japan vs Germny vs US. Yes, there were more
problems with the US built Toyotas. (Some may remember I worked for Toyota
for 13 years)

A Japanese built car had a JT2 or JT1 VIN whilst the US made were 1T1.
Canadian made were 2T1 and ranked almost as high as the JT2 cars. The labour
force was a problem for the company. I recall finding out from my head
office colleagues that the Camry plant in Georgetown KT and the other plant
farther south, can't remember where (Alabama?), required the use of
picograms to train staff as they couldn't find enough peope that could read
English!

They also has to do mandatory drug testing on all potential employees. This
was NOT an article in the paper, this was internal
memo information.

Also, the Japanese encouraged their employees to suggest enhancements to the
assembly process and used approx 90% of the suggestions. The average Jap
worker gave 10 suggestions per year. Growing up in a GM town I saw the
difference. The average GM worker was seldom listened tomaybe 1
suggestion per year and 10% were used.

Also, the Chevy Nova owers that dared to try getting the car repaired at a
Chevy dealer were sent to Toyota who knew nothing of the car!


Jeff Zedic
London

Re: [MBZ] Watch Quality

[Mitch Haley]

Sunil Hari wrote:
> 
> Not to rant, but I really abhor DeBeers.

Get your girl to really abhor DeBeers, and then convince her
that cubic zirconia engagement rings are the ultimate revenge
against DeBeers. Something around 3 carats, with the same setting
you'd buy if it were a diamond. Buy yourself a Mercedes with the
savings. ;-)

Mitch.

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota

[John M McIntosh]

It's a QC issue, if the shipping folks of company "A" can't met the  
shipping QC specs which might be there because the robots like to  
have consistence when they remove things from pallets then why should  
they think the product made by company 'A' will met the standards  
either.


Reminds me of a story where a famous rock band  always had in their  
contract and site setup plans to the venue, that jelly beans of a  
certain type/flavor had to be in the dressing room. If not then  
contract was canceled. Why? Well the band's stage manager believe if  
the venue couldn't read the contract and perform that simple task and  
ensure it was done, then why should the band then think other stuff  
like the specs for hanging lamps, providing electrical power, crowd  
control etc. was done properly too... I believe they walked a few  
times, he didn't need to know if the lamps were hung correctly, no  
jelly beans, we're out of here...



On Jan 14, 2007, at 10:56 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I noticed in the most recent years Toyota has taken a long hard  
look at the quality of their US built cars. I know someone who was  
a dedicated carrier for the Toyota plant in Indiana and he  
mentioned that they often send more shipments of parts and supplies  
back then they accept. He mentioned that many times they will look  
into the truck trailers and if something wasn't wrapped, stacked or  
even loaded properly they slam the doors and send it back refused  
without even examining the product. He said alot of the drivers got  
frustrated because they were so picky and had to return with the  
same load. A few times they even had to wait for hours if there was  
any delivery that looked iffy before they could leave. Sometimes  
they kept it and somethimes they sent it back.


Harry
69 280 SEL 135,000 Miles
72 350SL   118,000 Miles
2004 VW Passat 4 Motion
1999 Mazda Miata




John
1983 300TDt  374k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)
1990's 300TDt  184k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)
1993 500SEL 186k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)

Re: [MBZ] 124 alarm problems

[Darrell W. Sigmon]

The easiest way is to disconnect the alarm horn...

Ralph W wrote:

The alarm in my '87 300TD seems to have a mind of it's own every day or two the 
alarm will go off for no apparent reason. Does anyone know what causes this? As 
an alternative how can I disable the alarm? I really don't need an alarm on a 
20 year old car where I live. I checked the fuse box and couldn't find any 
mention of the alarm. Does it have it's own fuse somewhere alse? Any info would 
be appreciated by my neighbors.

Ralph W.
'83 300CD '82 300TD (2 parts wagons)
'90 300D   '01 E320 Wagon
'87 300TD
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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[Darrell W. Sigmon]

It was during this time that MB contracted with Porsche to build the 500E.
Darrell W. Sigmon
500E
400E

LarryT wrote:
In the early 90s Porsche was in deep do-do - sold less than 1000 Porsches in 
the US vs 10s of 1000s normally.  Not a happy time.  Until then, Porsches 
were heavily hand built - that had to change - they could *not* continue to 
produce a product designed in the late 50s while continuing to charge higher 
and higher prices.


They asked the Japanese for help and then they listened.

I fear the US automakers have for years depended on patriotism to sell their 
cars.  Undoubtedly this worked alot. But as the unions demands more and more 
sales produced less and less income.  It's a simple equation - money comes 
in, use it to pay expenses and if any is left spread it among the 
stockholders.   The stockholders will only allow a short period to pass 
without any payments before they take their money and go play somewhere 
else - basicaly leaving the company with fewer funds to pay bills - a 
viscious cycle.


Somewhere along in the 70s and 80s the US public began to demand more 
efficient, higher quality cars - like they could buy from Japan and to an 
extent Germany.  The US automakers have been dragged kicking and screaming 
into the present.  They want us to *think* they are cutting edge but I fear 
they are just doing enough to get by.


However, they deserve credit - their cars today? Basically, the worst car 
today is 100% better than the best car of 15 years ago - perhaps 10 years 
ago.


Sorry about the ramble -

Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/
.
- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Frederick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality



The difference between US and Japanese manufacturing is that the
Japanese USE statistical process control, the vast majority of US
manufactures do lots of statistics and call it SPC -- there is a
difference!

Don't know about the Germans, but I believe they tend more toward
producing good parts than the US tendency to fish the good parts out
from the junk.

Peter


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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[John M McIntosh]

Yes, that and testing. A friend of mine a few years back  bought a  
new toyota van (new model, first year of production) and proceeded to  
put
50,000 miles on it in the first year.  They got a phone call a year  
out saying Toyota wanted their transmission, if they agreeded they'd  
get a
new one, some perks etc.  So said transmission was replaced and the  
used one sent back to Japan with the comment they had talked to the
top N% users of this new transmission and sent lots back to Japan so  
they could determine if the transmission in the publics hands behaved  
the same as their expectations.


In this case if there was any corrective action to be taken, or could  
be taken it would likely occur before the majority of drivers would  
approach the same usage.



On Jan 14, 2007, at 10:35 AM, David Brodbeck wrote:


Chris Kueny wrote:
Somebody who knows more than me should point out the difference in  
Japanese
QC vs German QC.  The Germans accept a certain amount of bad cars,  
and try

like heck to catch them and fix them before shipping them, while the
Japanese see any bad car as a problem in the process, and find a  
way to fix
the process so that problem just doesn't happen anymore.  Have I  
got that

right?



I'm not sure about Japanese vs. German, but the Japanese were much
quicker to pick up on statistical process control methods than  
Americans

were.


John
1983 300TDt  384k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)
1990's 300TDt  184k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)
1993 500SEL 186k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)

Re: [MBZ] w124 wiper cover removal for greasing?

[John M McIntosh]

Ok, I dug around more and found a UK site that had pictures of the  
assembly which is the same as mine
The fellow noted even with the screw undone the housing won't come  
apart. In looking at the shop manual
it looks like that the one I have would require removing the assembly  
and undoing the gear circular clip and
tapping the gear off thus separating the housing assembly which is  
being held together not only by the screw

but by the gear retainer.

However my wife says the wiper now behaves as normal, so the grease  
seemed to have fixed the issue.
Perhaps when it warms up I'll remove it, with yes the battery  
disconnected, and check the other linkages.


On Jan 14, 2007, at 8:04 AM, Peter Frederick wrote:



There is a post on Mercedesshop.com  with pics of dismantling the  
wiper

motor to lube the innards.

Peter


John
1983 300TDt  374k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)
1990's 300TDt  184k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)
1993 500SEL 186k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota

[LarryT]

Peter wrote:<< many CEOs and upper management these days have
degrees in English>>

Frightening.  Before I left the corporate world I saw the requirement for 
MBAs becoming more and more ingrained into almost all positions being 
advertised for.  From cost (reasonable) to engineering (not reasonable) they 
were wanting MBAs into *everything*.


Of course, I was there when we spent literally 1000s of manhours training 
*everyone* in the various guises of TQ.  TQS, TQL, TQM, and on and on - 
followed by Black Belts, and probably a whole range of acronyms since I left 
that world on disability.


I was at a Tech Center for a major chemical/fibers company - we did R&D and 
pilot plants before commercialization - and the whole freaking organization 
was sent to 3 & 5 full day training exercizes.  While we were being told 
over and over that for "any change to be an improvement it had to be 
measurable", I wonder what metrics they put on that training to justify the 
expense?


Oh well - sure seems like a long time ago - 8 years.

Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
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.
- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Frederick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota



Nope.  A degree in science or engineering disqualifies one to be
management -- "too close to the work".  You must have "independent
thinking skills" and be able to blow the current psuedo-scientific
smoke, whatever brand it is these days.  If you know how things
actually work, you won't be able to make "critical decisions" (i.e. cut
costs at whatever expense).

Sad but true.  How many CEOs and upper management these days have
degrees in English?  More than you would think, it's ballyhooed at
universities as the road to success!

Peter


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Re: [MBZ] Watch Quality

[David Brodbeck]

Sunil Hari wrote:
> It's not a watch, it's a piece of jewelry that happens to tell time.  No one
> poo-poohs a $2k diamond ring, and it doesn't -do- anything.

Yup, and what makes it valuable is the craftsmanship and the
exclusivity.  It doesn't take much to turn out an accurate quartz watch,
but a mechanical one that runs smoothly and accurately takes a high
degree of skill.

I don't even wear a watch, but I can appreciate precision mechanical
devices.

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[LarryT]

Hi Peter,
Yep, I should have included management when I mentioned the labor unons - I 
don't see how the stockholders keep from storming that gates  when they see 
the bonuses being handed out.  It;s one thing for bonus' to be distributed 
when profit is up but madness when times are tough.


I remember when Oldsmobile was a class act - I seem to remember it being 
just below Caddy in terms of desirability - it was the only car my dad 
bought - (for a while) - and now, there is *no* Olds.


Course, with the global integration of so many companies buying into one 
another - it's getting harder and harder  to put a country label on many car 
companies.


Later gang --

Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
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.
- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Frederick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality



Not really a ramble, Larry.  They ARE better, but still suffer from
crappy design (lousy shapes, for instance) --- my buddy's parents
decided to drive (at night) to go to dinner over Thanksgiving because
they simply could not face the ordeal of getting in and out of the rear
seat of a new Pontiac mid-sized car my buddy rented.  I doubt an
athlete would want to do that chore more than a couple times a week,
really terribly.  We almost had to pick them up, as they are both
getting on in years and, shall we say, somewhat less than sprightly.
The access to the front seats isn't much better.

And if they are boasting of their quality, it must have been shockingly
bad a few years ago -- one of my co-workers bought a new Buick Lacrosse
-- and has been back thee times for warrenty work, including a leaking
GPS system antenna.  It was stuck on as an afterthought, and the
gaskets were crap, leak on every single one they've produced so far.

The main problem is the "fish the good ones out of the junk" mentality,
coupled with a flat refusal to integrate design work (or actually do
any, for that matter) -- GM makes 30 or 40 different door handles,
Toyota makes three.  GM makes upwards of 60 side rear view left side
mirrors, Toyota makes 2 (car and truck).  My old Buick was available
with SIX engines and FOUR transmissions in various combinations,
largest engine was 3.3L and smallest was 2.4.  Just plain stupid, but
the US makers will not change until they actually go belly up.  They
prefer to dis the people who assemble the cars instead of admitting
that the MANAGEMENT makes all the decisions.  Sure, their retirement
costs are higher, but they have fully amortized manufacturing
facilities and Toyota is building new ones, I'd bet it evens out more
than you might think.

Only in America does the management get huge bonuses as the company
tanks.  What else is there to say?

Peter


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Re: [MBZ] Watch Quality

[Sunil Hari]

It's not a watch, it's a piece of jewelry that happens to tell time.  No one
poo-poohs a $2k diamond ring, and it doesn't -do- anything.  And the stone
inside isn't really worth the money; it's an artificial supply constriction
by a cartel.

Not to rant, but I really abhor DeBeers.


On 1/14/07, Rich Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Why would you/whoever spend $2k on a watch?

Not being a smartass, I just want to know what the thought process is.
I have found that there are plenty of places to get the time if you need
it, and I very rarely need to know what the time is when there is no
source around.  I can appreciate the engineering and craftsmanship of a
fine timepiece, which I guess is part of the appeal.  But the digital
clock you get in a Happy Meal keeps better time than yours.

--R

Gary Hurst wrote:
> i have a 2 year old $2,000 omega watch.  it's running slow about 15
> seconds a day over roughly hte past year
>


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--
Sunil Hari
1992 300D 2.5T - 290Kmi.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
513-205-7474

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota

[Peter Frederick]

Nope.  A degree in science or engineering disqualifies one to be 
management -- "too close to the work".  You must have "independent 
thinking skills" and be able to blow the current psuedo-scientific 
smoke, whatever brand it is these days.  If you know how things 
actually work, you won't be able to make "critical decisions" (i.e. cut 
costs at whatever expense).


Sad but true.  How many CEOs and upper management these days have 
degrees in English?  More than you would think, it's ballyhooed at 
universities as the road to success!


Peter

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[Peter Frederick]

Not really a ramble, Larry.  They ARE better, but still suffer from 
crappy design (lousy shapes, for instance) --- my buddy's parents 
decided to drive (at night) to go to dinner over Thanksgiving because 
they simply could not face the ordeal of getting in and out of the rear 
seat of a new Pontiac mid-sized car my buddy rented.  I doubt an 
athlete would want to do that chore more than a couple times a week, 
really terribly.  We almost had to pick them up, as they are both 
getting on in years and, shall we say, somewhat less than sprightly.  
The access to the front seats isn't much better.


And if they are boasting of their quality, it must have been shockingly 
bad a few years ago -- one of my co-workers bought a new Buick Lacrosse 
-- and has been back thee times for warrenty work, including a leaking 
GPS system antenna.  It was stuck on as an afterthought, and the 
gaskets were crap, leak on every single one they've produced so far.


The main problem is the "fish the good ones out of the junk" mentality, 
coupled with a flat refusal to integrate design work (or actually do 
any, for that matter) -- GM makes 30 or 40 different door handles, 
Toyota makes three.  GM makes upwards of 60 side rear view left side 
mirrors, Toyota makes 2 (car and truck).  My old Buick was available 
with SIX engines and FOUR transmissions in various combinations, 
largest engine was 3.3L and smallest was 2.4.  Just plain stupid, but 
the US makers will not change until they actually go belly up.  They 
prefer to dis the people who assemble the cars instead of admitting 
that the MANAGEMENT makes all the decisions.  Sure, their retirement 
costs are higher, but they have fully amortized manufacturing 
facilities and Toyota is building new ones, I'd bet it evens out more 
than you might think.


Only in America does the management get huge bonuses as the company 
tanks.  What else is there to say?


Peter

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota

[LarryT]

you wrote:>


Hmmm, I wonder if that is because of the low # of engineering/scientist our 
colleges are turning out?  Along with a high # of Liberal Arts degrees 
forcing a glut on the market - so a company that is looking for a Bachelors 
degree holder must accept whatever comse in the door?


While the US still leads the world in most areas I gotta wonder how long we 
can keep that position while putting square pegs into round holes?  Those 
managers can do an amazing amount of damage to morale and the product.


Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
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.
- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Frederick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota



The US plants have American managers.  If they are like the ones I have
currently at my current job (major US company as a contractor), they
can turn any set of parts into junk.

The notion that "if you know how to do it you are prohibited from
managing it" seems to be universal in the US -- the only thing that
counts is daily cash savings.  Actual knowledge appears to disqualify
one to manage anything -- most of my current managers (in a materials
supply industry) have degrees in Liberal Arts.

Naturally, you get lousy product as a result.

Peter


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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota

[LarryT]

Yep, my 1999 Camry had a J in the VIN # indicating it was assembled in 
Japan.


It was a part of the advertising when I sold it to buy the 91 300D ;-)

Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/
.
- Original Message - 
From: "Billr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "'Mercedes Discussion List'" 
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 6:47 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota


My story was based on a company Corolla, probably a 1992 that I was 
assigned

when I hired on in 1994 [I let the wife have my '75 240D].  When I first
took the car to the Toyota dealer and gave the service manager a list of
items that were causing me concern [can't remember the list anymore] his
first comment was that mine must be a US manufactured car.  He then 
checked

the VIN and confirmed that it did indeed come from a plant here.  I assume
US/Japan plants used the same parts, or parts made here using the same 
specs
[anybody know about that?], so the difference was where it was put 
together.

I'd not want to start a thread on work habits [willingness to do a
mind-numbing job day after day] or cultural values, but the finished 
product
seems to have been different depending mostly on where it was put 
together.

BillR
Jacksonville FL
1981 300SD  283k miles


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Jim Cathey
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 8:38 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality


Somebody who knows more than me should point out the difference in
Japanese QC vs German QC.  The Germans accept a certain amount of bad
cars, and try like heck to catch them and fix them before shipping
them, while the Japanese see any bad car as a problem in the process,
and find a way to fix the process so that problem just doesn't happen
anymore.  Have I got that right?


Maybe more of an asian thing rather than just Japanese, 20 years ago when 
we

had some contract manufacturing done in Taiwan I was sent over to look at
the initial production.  As the designing engineer I was able to look at
what they'd made.  (Which was, at that time, exactly what we would have
built locally.)  They had a pile of bad units stacked to one side, and I 
was
going through them one by one.  I'm sure they were worried that there was 
a

systematic problem, but each one was just normal (in my book) fallout.
Every one had something different wrong with it, and nothing caused me any
particular worry.

I vividly remember one instance where I determined that there was a bad 
PAL
device, and according to my practice I just popped it out of its socket 
and

smashed it, so that a bad one wouldn't be mistaken for good.  A minor
commotion ensued, one of their engineers grabbed it up and ran off with 
it,

carrying it like it was a valuable and delicate item.  Or a sick pet.

I don't think I'd want to have been whomever was responsible for 
programming
it.  I'm sure they wanted to chase down _exactly_ what was wrong with it 
to

see if there was some part of the process to fix.

I kind of doubt that China, however, is exhibiting this type of trait.  In
my mind they are more cowboys than that, and in a way more like us.  But I
could be wrong.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[LarryT]

In the early 90s Porsche was in deep do-do - sold less than 1000 Porsches in 
the US vs 10s of 1000s normally.  Not a happy time.  Until then, Porsches 
were heavily hand built - that had to change - they could *not* continue to 
produce a product designed in the late 50s while continuing to charge higher 
and higher prices.


They asked the Japanese for help and then they listened.

I fear the US automakers have for years depended on patriotism to sell their 
cars.  Undoubtedly this worked alot. But as the unions demands more and more 
sales produced less and less income.  It's a simple equation - money comes 
in, use it to pay expenses and if any is left spread it among the 
stockholders.   The stockholders will only allow a short period to pass 
without any payments before they take their money and go play somewhere 
else - basicaly leaving the company with fewer funds to pay bills - a 
viscious cycle.


Somewhere along in the 70s and 80s the US public began to demand more 
efficient, higher quality cars - like they could buy from Japan and to an 
extent Germany.  The US automakers have been dragged kicking and screaming 
into the present.  They want us to *think* they are cutting edge but I fear 
they are just doing enough to get by.


However, they deserve credit - their cars today? Basically, the worst car 
today is 100% better than the best car of 15 years ago - perhaps 10 years 
ago.


Sorry about the ramble -

Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/
.
- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Frederick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality



The difference between US and Japanese manufacturing is that the
Japanese USE statistical process control, the vast majority of US
manufactures do lots of statistics and call it SPC -- there is a
difference!

Don't know about the Germans, but I believe they tend more toward
producing good parts than the US tendency to fish the good parts out
from the junk.

Peter


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Re: [MBZ] Watch Quality

[Rich Thomas]

Why would you/whoever spend $2k on a watch?

Not being a smartass, I just want to know what the thought process is.  
I have found that there are plenty of places to get the time if you need 
it, and I very rarely need to know what the time is when there is no 
source around.  I can appreciate the engineering and craftsmanship of a 
fine timepiece, which I guess is part of the appeal.  But the digital 
clock you get in a Happy Meal keeps better time than yours.


--R

Gary Hurst wrote:

i have a 2 year old $2,000 omega watch.  it's running slow about 15
seconds a day over roughly hte past year
  

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[mykd1]

The way I see Mercedes in their quality standards is they pay more attention 
the to the quality of their higher end cars than they do the so called "less 
expensive" cars. Its like the more money you have to spend on their cars has a 
greater influence to how tolerant you are with quality.  
 
Harry
69 280 SEL 135,000 Miles
72 350SL   118,000 Miles
2004 VW Passat 4 Motion
1999 Mazda Miata   
 
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality


> > If MB is selling more cars than ever before, how
> can
> > they be junk?  They must be doing something right.
> 
> You mean like Microsoft and McDonalds?

Good point




 

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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota

[mykd1]

The GTI was built in Germany, but some of the parts came from Austria and the 
US. I do believe the diesel engine cars.. Jetta, Golf and Rabbitt were also 
German built 
 
Harry
69 280 SEL 135,000 Miles
72 350SL   118,000 Miles
2004 VW Passat 4 Motion
1999 Mazda Miata   
 
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota


Similar differences in quality were/are noted in Mexican vs. German
assembled Volkswagens, and also to the US assembled ones (Rabbits I
think) when they had a plant in Westmoreland PA.  For example I have
been told "if you are going to buy a Golf, get the GTI they are still
made in Germany" (I don't know if that's still true, btw).  You would
*think* the same parts, assembly processes, training, and standards
would be used in all locations, yet somehow there are differences in
the results.


"Billr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> My story was based on a company Corolla, probably a 1992 that I was
> assigned when I hired on in 1994 [I let the wife have my '75 240D].
> When I first took the car to the Toyota dealer and gave the service
> manager a list of items that were causing me concern [can't remember
> the list anymore] his first comment was that mine must be a US
> manufactured car.  He then checked the VIN and confirmed that it did
> indeed come from a plant here.  I assume US/Japan plants used the
> same parts, or parts made here using the same specs [anybody know
> about that?], so the difference was where it was put together.  I'd
> not want to start a thread on work habits [willingness to do a
> mind-numbing job day after day] or cultural values, but the finished
> product seems to have been different depending mostly on where it
> was put together.  BillR Jacksonville FL 1981 300SD 283k miles

-- 
1983 300D
1966 230

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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota

[mykd1]

I noticed in the most recent years Toyota has taken a long hard look at the 
quality of their US built cars. I know someone who was a dedicated carrier for 
the Toyota plant in Indiana and he mentioned that they often send more 
shipments of parts and supplies back then they accept. He mentioned that many 
times they will look into the truck trailers and if something wasn't wrapped, 
stacked or even loaded properly they slam the doors and send it back refused 
without even examining the product. He said alot of the drivers got frustrated 
because they were so picky and had to return with the same load. A few times 
they even had to wait for hours if there was any delivery that looked iffy 
before they could leave. Sometimes they kept it and somethimes they sent it 
back.   
 
Harry
69 280 SEL 135,000 Miles
72 350SL   118,000 Miles
2004 VW Passat 4 Motion
1999 Mazda Miata   
 
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 5:47 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota


My story was based on a company Corolla, probably a 1992 that I was assigned
when I hired on in 1994 [I let the wife have my '75 240D].  When I first
took the car to the Toyota dealer and gave the service manager a list of
items that were causing me concern [can't remember the list anymore] his
first comment was that mine must be a US manufactured car.  He then checked
the VIN and confirmed that it did indeed come from a plant here.  I assume
US/Japan plants used the same parts, or parts made here using the same specs
[anybody know about that?], so the difference was where it was put together.
I'd not want to start a thread on work habits [willingness to do a
mind-numbing job day after day] or cultural values, but the finished product
seems to have been different depending mostly on where it was put together.
BillR
Jacksonville FL
1981 300SD  283k miles
  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Jim Cathey
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 8:38 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

> Somebody who knows more than me should point out the difference in 
> Japanese QC vs German QC.  The Germans accept a certain amount of bad 
> cars, and try like heck to catch them and fix them before shipping 
> them, while the Japanese see any bad car as a problem in the process, 
> and find a way to fix the process so that problem just doesn't happen 
> anymore.  Have I got that right?

Maybe more of an asian thing rather than just Japanese, 20 years ago when we
had some contract manufacturing done in Taiwan I was sent over to look at
the initial production.  As the designing engineer I was able to look at
what they'd made.  (Which was, at that time, exactly what we would have
built locally.)  They had a pile of bad units stacked to one side, and I was
going through them one by one.  I'm sure they were worried that there was a
systematic problem, but each one was just normal (in my book) fallout.
Every one had something different wrong with it, and nothing caused me any
particular worry.

I vividly remember one instance where I determined that there was a bad PAL
device, and according to my practice I just popped it out of its socket and
smashed it, so that a bad one wouldn't be mistaken for good.  A minor
commotion ensued, one of their engineers grabbed it up and ran off with it,
carrying it like it was a valuable and delicate item.  Or a sick pet.

I don't think I'd want to have been whomever was responsible for programming
it.  I'm sure they wanted to chase down _exactly_ what was wrong with it to
see if there was some part of the process to fix.

I kind of doubt that China, however, is exhibiting this type of trait.  In
my mind they are more cowboys than that, and in a way more like us.  But I
could be wrong.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[Peter Frederick]

The difference between US and Japanese manufacturing is that the 
Japanese USE statistical process control, the vast majority of US 
manufactures do lots of statistics and call it SPC -- there is a 
difference!


Don't know about the Germans, but I believe they tend more toward 
producing good parts than the US tendency to fish the good parts out 
from the junk.


Peter

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[David Brodbeck]

Chris Kueny wrote:
> Somebody who knows more than me should point out the difference in Japanese 
> QC vs German QC.  The Germans accept a certain amount of bad cars, and try 
> like heck to catch them and fix them before shipping them, while the 
> Japanese see any bad car as a problem in the process, and find a way to fix 
> the process so that problem just doesn't happen anymore.  Have I got that 
> right?
>   

I'm not sure about Japanese vs. German, but the Japanese were much
quicker to pick up on statistical process control methods than Americans
were.  To put it very simply, if you imagine the specifications a
product has to meet as two vertical lines on a graph, and the actual
values of products coming off the line as a bell curve, American
companies would focus on finding the finished items that were in the
"tails" outside the specs and reworking them to make them good; while
Japanese companies would focus on refining the process to narrow the
curve so the "tails" were smaller and more of the finished product
landed inside the specs to begin with.  This is the basis of statistical
process control...you measure and graph things so you know where your
actual output is compared to the specs.  Is the average too high or too
low?  Is there too much variation?  This has to be applied to the whole
manufacturing process, from gaskets and bolts on up.

W. Edwards Deming was a big advocate of statistical process control.  He
had very limited success convincing American companies to change how
they did business, but after WWII he traveled to Japan.  People there
listened, and the rest is history.

Re: [MBZ] 123 Blower Motor failure - not the fuse

[Marshall Booth]

andrew strasfogel wrote:

The blower motor on her 1985 300 CD has ceased to operate in one fell
swoop.  I replaced the fuse, but this had  no effect.   Before I
purchase a replacement motor, I should ask whether there is a relay
that might be at fault rather than the motor itself.  Anybody?


The two most common causes of what you describe (after blown fuse in the 
aux fuse box if so equipped) are seized blower bearings or worn brushes. 
If these are both fine, then the blower control box may have failed 
(although that's rather rare). Does the blower work when you engage 
defrost? Try tapping it. Does moving the ignition key back from position 
II toward position I result in the blower motor engaging? Ignition 
switch failures were a known cause of the blower not working.


Marshall
--
Marshall Booth Ph.D.
Ass't Prof. (ret.)
Univ of Pittsburgh School of Medicine
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [MBZ] OT Winows XP annoying click requirement

[Peter Frederick]

The frog icon is likely an option (similar silly stuff on OS X) -- you 
can set the computer to boot directly into a user somewhere on the 
control panel, I don't know where (I'm a Mac user, but I've worked on 
XP computers).  You need the admin password to do so, I think, but it 
can be done.


Peter

Re: [MBZ] OT Winows XP annoying click requirement

[Zoltan Finks]

Hey 'preciate the tips!

Actually I think we only have one user defined, or whatever the terminology.
I remember installing XP and I just named one user. And it's the only one
that comes up - the name I chose and the silly cartoon frog.

I'll look at the google earth site too.

Brian

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota

[Peter Frederick]

The US plants have American managers.  If they are like the ones I have 
currently at my current job (major US company as a contractor), they 
can turn any set of parts into junk.


The notion that "if you know how to do it you are prohibited from 
managing it" seems to be universal in the US -- the only thing that 
counts is daily cash savings.  Actual knowledge appears to disqualify 
one to manage anything -- most of my current managers (in a materials 
supply industry) have degrees in Liberal Arts.


Naturally, you get lousy product as a result.

Peter

Re: [MBZ] bounces

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

What kind of bounces?  I know your posts are no longer coming from your 
subscribed email address though.


Billr wrote:

Kaleb - I just had to reinstall MS Office Professional and suddenly am
getting bounces all over the place.  I thought I had everything the same,
but I guess not.  Any clue as to what I need to change?

BillR  


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--
Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK
 (2x) 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL,
 87 300SDL, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 84 190D 2.2,
 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250
http://www.striplin.net

Re: [MBZ] bounces

[Allan Streib]

"Billr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Kaleb - I just had to reinstall MS Office Professional and suddenly am
> getting bounces all over the place.  I thought I had everything the same,
> but I guess not.  Any clue as to what I need to change?

Your messages contain the following Reply-To header:

  Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Mercedes Discussion List 

(I belive the mercedes@okiebenz.com is being tacked on by the list
software, but your email program is likely creating the first one).

That email just bounced for me

Allan

-- 
1983 300D
1966 230

Re: [MBZ] OT Winows XP annoying click requirement

[The Wakin's]

go to start - settings - control panel and select the option to change how 
users logon.


Dave W

- Original Message - 
From: "Zoltan Finks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 3:17 AM
Subject: [MBZ] OT Winows XP annoying click requirement



Does anyone know if there is a way to disable the requirement that Windows
XP has that the user click on their user icon in order to get the computer
to either turn on or to wake up?

We "upgraded" from 98 to XP some months ago, and the most annoying feature
is that when I turn on the computer, I am required to be there to 
physically

move the mouse to the little frog icon and click so that the stupid thing
can proceed with its startup procedure. In the past, I would hit the power
button to turn the computer on, then I'd leave the room and do something
else, then come back to my waiting computer ready for action. Now, with
XP, I have to come back just to click on the damned frog, then go away 
again

while it finishes the final 2/3 of its startup procedure, and then I can
come back and use my computer. Any way around this?

Also:

Has anyone installed "Virtual Earth 3D" and run it successfully? It's that
map/locating program, but I guess they now have a way you can see (I'm
assuming fly-through photography) great new 3D views of selected cities. I
tried to install it on both my desktop and my laptop, but unsuccessful. 
Any

experiences here?

Thanks
Brian
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Re: [MBZ] OT Winows XP annoying click requirement

[Allan Streib]

"Billr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I use XP on two computers [both came with it as the OS though, no
> upgrades] and I have never seen a frog icon. Must be from something
> else.  I hit the power button [on the rare occasion that I turn one
> off] and either wait a minute or come back later to a ready
> computer.

It's a matter of having multiple user accounts defined.  When you buy
a PC with XP pre-loaded, you have only one (the default admin account)
that logs on automatically at power up.

If you have multiple users, you have to pick one (and log in if you
have created passwords) at boot time.  There may be a way to define
one to auto-log in by default.

Also some software can interfere with the log in capabilities -- for
example when we installed a LinkSys USB wireless network interface,
the driver software disabled "fast user switching".

Allan
-- 
1983 300D
1966 230

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota

[Allan Streib]

Similar differences in quality were/are noted in Mexican vs. German
assembled Volkswagens, and also to the US assembled ones (Rabbits I
think) when they had a plant in Westmoreland PA.  For example I have
been told "if you are going to buy a Golf, get the GTI they are still
made in Germany" (I don't know if that's still true, btw).  You would
*think* the same parts, assembly processes, training, and standards
would be used in all locations, yet somehow there are differences in
the results.


"Billr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> My story was based on a company Corolla, probably a 1992 that I was
> assigned when I hired on in 1994 [I let the wife have my '75 240D].
> When I first took the car to the Toyota dealer and gave the service
> manager a list of items that were causing me concern [can't remember
> the list anymore] his first comment was that mine must be a US
> manufactured car.  He then checked the VIN and confirmed that it did
> indeed come from a plant here.  I assume US/Japan plants used the
> same parts, or parts made here using the same specs [anybody know
> about that?], so the difference was where it was put together.  I'd
> not want to start a thread on work habits [willingness to do a
> mind-numbing job day after day] or cultural values, but the finished
> product seems to have been different depending mostly on where it
> was put together.  BillR Jacksonville FL 1981 300SD 283k miles

-- 
1983 300D
1966 230

Re: [MBZ] 123 Blower Motor failure - not the fuse

[Jim Cathey]

The blower motor on her 1985 300 CD has ceased to operate in one fell
swoop.  I replaced the fuse, but this had  no effect.   Before I
purchase a replacement motor, I should ask whether there is a relay
that might be at fault rather than the motor itself.  Anybody?


There is a relay, the blower control relay.  But on a 123 it's
very easy to check things out up on the fender where the blower
speed resistor pack is located.  You can test there for power
being supplied, continuity through the resistors themselves,
and whether the blower motor runs or not with power applied.

A schematic really helps at this point.

-- Jim

Re: [MBZ] was: rubbing compound on hood, now Correct Way to Wax

[Peter Frederick]

I doubt that Zymol is plain carnauba wax, though

Peter

Re: [MBZ] My new M100

[Rory]

Too bad it was only the wine, I was planning a trip to your casa to check it
out!



Rory Morrison
Oroville, WA
1985 300SD
1982 300TD

Re: [MBZ] w124 wiper cover removal for greasing?

[Peter Frederick]

Lubricate the rod with synthetic grease, Mobil 1 or equivalent.  Helps 
a bunch.  CLEAN with a spray something first, but the lube MUST stay 
put no matter what the temp, and anything liquid will run off in the 
summer, leading to a stuck shaft eventually.


I need to do this with both cars -- I lubed the top part this year and 
that helped, but need to dig in.


There is a post on Mercedesshop.com  with pics of dismantling the wiper 
motor to lube the innards.


Peter

Re: [MBZ] OT Winows XP annoying click requirement

[Joe Knight]

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/282866/en-us

Check out google earth.

-joe

[MBZ] 124 Wiper

[Frederick W Moir]

Caveat.
Before removing wiper from car, disconnect the battery. If you nudge 
the self parking bit it may shear away important part of your anatomy.

This would ruin your day!
Fred Moir
Lynn MA

Re: [MBZ] w124 wiper cover removal for greasing?

[Marshall Booth]

John M McIntosh wrote:
The cold weather up here in the NW has shown the 90's W124 needs to  
have the wiper mech greased.


In looking into this, plus reading notes on the internet it says to  
use a pick or allen wrench on the lower flange of the wiper rod housing
at the 5 and 7 o'clock position stick in hole to unlatch the housing.  
I'll note there are two holes there, plus what looks like
two stainless steel screw ends flush to the housing. But as much as I  
try I can't figure out how to unlatch the housing.  I'm not sure if the
holes are just for drainage, and the stainless steel ends the latch  
ends, that or the single Phillips screw on the bottom edge is holding  
it together.
However nothing,out  in the wholesome freezing cold I might add,  
works to get the housing open.
Helpfully there seems to be a number of changes to the mech over the  
years and even if some series look the same, they are different.


Anyone perform  this task successfully?

In greasing the wiper rod since it I can access that I used Liquid  
Grease (NLGI Class 00)   MB Part No. A001 989 08 51 10, which likely  
is a bit light.
However that improved the speed of the wiper by 100%, perhaps normal  
speed from oh shit that looks like trouble.
Still I'd like to get inside and grease the rails and the other side  
of the rod, sadly as other note this doesn't seem to be a service  
point when all
the other grease points on the wagon are done, not a trace of grease  
on the rod.


Not all the single blade wiper transmissions can be opened using the 
pick or Allen wrench. As I recall, very early ones ('85?) and much later 
ones ('90s?) are more complicated and I've not tried to open any of those.


Simply using a few drops of ATF (works better and lasts longer than 
Mobil 1 engine oil) on the shaft/rod has restored free movement to all 
of my wipers.


Marshall

Marshall
--
Marshall Booth Ph.D.
Ass't Prof. (ret.)
Univ of Pittsburgh School of Medicine
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

[MBZ] 123 Blower Motor failure - not the fuse

[andrew strasfogel]

The blower motor on her 1985 300 CD has ceased to operate in one fell
swoop.  I replaced the fuse, but this had  no effect.   Before I
purchase a replacement motor, I should ask whether there is a relay
that might be at fault rather than the motor itself.  Anybody?

1985 300 CD
210 K miles

Re: [MBZ] was: rubbing compound on hood, now Correct Way to Wax

[andrew strasfogel]

I find that the only wy to remove the white haze left on my car
following application of Zymol car polish is with really hard rubbing.
It's more a "crust" than a haze.  It also removes the so-called dead
paint in the process.

On 1/13/07, Peter Frederick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Thin white haze, wipes off with light pressure.

You are only removing the excess, the wax stuck to the paint won't turn
white.

Peter


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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[Tom Hargrave]

Now you guys are getting into my area of expertise.

Quality has to be designed into and not inspected into a product.
Inspection's place is as a measuring tool and in the case of an identified
quality issue, a filter to bring a sub-standard lot back up to acceptable
standards. Quality systems are also designed to manage manufacturing defects
because no matter how good the design, people still assemble the product.
Most of the defects that customers see in new cars are the result of
manufacturing errors combined with escapes from the quality system, not
design flaws. They escape because no manufacturing system is perfect.

It may seem odd but a quality product is not always the absolute best
design. A quality product is one that meets the customer's needs at the
lowest cost. Mercedes and most other manufacturers can design cars that will
run reliably for 1,000,000's of miles but these cars would not meet their
customer's needs. For starters, they would be way too expensive. Plus, I
suspect that they would weigh about 3X as much as a modern S class Mercedes
because the over-engineered (never to fail) drive line, charging system,
starting system, etc would be much more heavy duty than what's being
produced today. The cars would probably get worse gas mileage than an early
70's Caddy.

Now back to the "customer's needs at the lowest cost" statement that I made.
Mercedes are designed to fill a market segment and that segment has a finite
price range. I know that they sell some cars in the 100K+ range but they
sell very few of those. Their main lines are the C, E & M class Mercedes and
these range from the mid 30's through the 70's for some AMG models. Every
one of these cars are full of design "compromises" to control cost but there
is nothing wrong with controlling cost. Also, every car manufacturer (no
exception) is driven to find the lowest cost sources of quality components
possible including Lexus, Toyota and Honda. It's just part of business.
 
There is another metrics tied to quality - MTBF. MTBF stands for Mean Time
Before Failure. Every major module on a car has a MTBF rating - it's the
expected average lifespan of the part. This is as much true for the engine
as well as it is for the alternator. Even the door hinges have a MTBF
rating. The designers expect the doors to be opened & closed a certain
number of times during the lifespan of the car & hinges are designed to
support this plus a reasonable buffer.

I've owned enough Mercedes to know that the MTBF of the accessory items is
not too long on the older models. For example, I would expect to loose an
alternator before 100,000 miles. But today's cars run 150,000 + miles before
accessories start dropping out. Why? Because the components have a much
better MTBF rating! In other words, they are higher quality.

Also, I've been around long enough to remember when your "new car", Mercedes
included, would have at least 6 annoyance items that you would have to get
the dealer to "fix". These just don't exist anymore and it's another sign of
the higher quality of today's cars.

Then there is another element - early life failure. No matter how good the
design, some percentage of modules will fail prematurely. The failures could
be due to random component failure in an electronic assembly or a mechanical
failure.
 
Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Werner Fehlauer
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 11:58 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

Chris - I don't think your understanding of Japanese and German QC is 
correct.  Both (and probably all) manufacturers have peaks and valleys in 
their QC measurements.  The trick is to narrow this gap, and the successful 
companies work very hard to do quality testing at the lowest level (i.e. at 
the suppliers) and then continue checking as components and material make it

into the final product.  The more comprehensive this process, the better the

final product.  If QC was perfect and the final products never had failures,

there would be no need for a warranty!

In the case of our favorite car brand, I believe that too much of the 
initial QC has been left to suppliers, and therefore they have allowed parts

into the final assembly that may have more latent flaws than can be 
accepted.  Part of this problem is the age-old concept of low bidder; if a 
supplier had more control and testing, they would have to raise their 
prices, and thereby lose their contracts.  All companies try to buy their 
material at the lowest cost, in order to sell the final product 
competitively.

It just appears that at this time, some of the Japanese firms have managed 
to have tighter control of their suppliers.  But there is "junk" out there 
to buy from any country - its still caveat emptor!

Werner



- Original Message - 
From: "Chris Kueny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mercedes Discussion List"

Re: [MBZ] w124 wiper cover removal for greasing?

[LarryT]

John,
You may want to read the procedure for removing the whole wiper assy - it 
may be easier to do that and lubricate everything before replacing it.  BTW, 
the WW assy is removed to access the HVAC blower motor.


Thanks for the warning about lubing the WW.

Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/
.
- Original Message - 
From: "John M McIntosh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 11:35 PM
Subject: [MBZ] w124 wiper cover removal for greasing?



The cold weather up here in the NW has shown the 90's W124 needs to
have the wiper mech greased.

In looking into this, plus reading notes on the internet it says to
use a pick or allen wrench on the lower flange of the wiper rod housing
at the 5 and 7 o'clock position stick in hole to unlatch the housing.
I'll note there are two holes there, plus what looks like
two stainless steel screw ends flush to the housing. But as much as I
try I can't figure out how to unlatch the housing.  I'm not sure if the
holes are just for drainage, and the stainless steel ends the latch
ends, that or the single Phillips screw on the bottom edge is holding
it together.
However nothing,out  in the wholesome freezing cold I might add,
works to get the housing open.
Helpfully there seems to be a number of changes to the mech over the
years and even if some series look the same, they are different.

Anyone perform  this task successfully?

In greasing the wiper rod since it I can access that I used Liquid
Grease (NLGI Class 00)   MB Part No. A001 989 08 51 10, which likely
is a bit light.
However that improved the speed of the wiper by 100%, perhaps normal
speed from oh shit that looks like trouble.
Still I'd like to get inside and grease the rails and the other side
of the rod, sadly as other note this doesn't seem to be a service
point when all
the other grease points on the wagon are done, not a trace of grease
on the rod.


John
1983 300TDt  374k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)
1990's 300TDt  184k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)
1993 500SEL 186k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)



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Re: [MBZ] OT Winows XP annoying click requirement

[L. Mark Finch]

I've been running Google Earth on my Macs. It works well, and it's  
free. Runs on all three major platforms.


http://earth.google.com/

--mf



On Jan 14, 2007, at 3:17 AM, Zoltan Finks wrote:

Has anyone installed "Virtual Earth 3D" and run it successfully?  
It's that

map/locating program, but I guess they now have a way you can see (I'm
assuming fly-through photography) great new 3D views of selected  
cities. I
tried to install it on both my desktop and my laptop, but  
unsuccessful. Any

experiences here?

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[LarryT]

Yep.  The old stand by explanation for QC problems was "They all do that." 
Now, run along.


Certainly the old days of paying sticker for a VW because there was a line 
of people waiting in line for the next one - the Japanese changed all that.


I'm trying to remember who this was -- saw a program recently and they 
talked about disassembling every 30th or so finished car - welds were 
checked, as were fasteners and general fit and finish.



Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/
.
- Original Message - 
From: "Gary Hurst" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality



the internet has killed any capacity for coverup.  in the old days,
the manufacturer could always say that your problem is some sort of
strange anomaly.  perhaps you drive funny?

while most companies remain fundamentally unaware of the internet, we
now know when they are flat out lying to us, instead of just having
suspicions and doubts as before.

i have a 2 year old $2,000 omega watch.  it's running slow about 15
seconds a day over roughly hte past year, which isn't all the horrible
for mechanical watch, but certainly unacceptable for a watch of this
class that used to run to within a second a day.  because of the
internet, i know of very many specific examples of this happening.  I
also know that people in the USA who contact omega are referred to an
authorized US Omega service center and are basically blown off and
told to accept this problem as normal and typical.  I also know that
those who have sent their watch back to the manufacturer in Bienne,
Switzerland requested that this issue be addressed have had the
escapment replaced and hte problem solved at no cost to them.

the internet is just a nightmare for these folks and they will soon be
unable to survive relying on their traditional method of control
through disinformation.  they just mostly don't know it yet.

On 1/13/07, LarryT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Bob wrote<>

You know, the internet has changed things more ways that we can even 
dream -
communication is probably one of the biggest changes - I wonder if 
perhaps
owners who have problems have a better way to publicize their problems 
than
before?  Before the New, it was word of mouth, newspapers and if lucky, 
TV.
Now, a problem appears in the morning and before lunch it can be part of 
a

forum (or several) being spread all over the world.

Perhaps?

Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/
.
- Original Message -
From: "Bob Rentfro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality


> Tom mentioned:
>
> "I have several friends with newer Mercedes and they all seem pleased
> with them."
>
> ...and then he wondered:
>
> "Can these defective Mercedes be isolated cases that once they start on
> the net, never seem to die?"
>
> My friend has a '05 C230 and he loves. It has been flawless. Another 
> work

> associate has a '05 C230 and it has been one headache after another.
> There have always been good ones and bad ones. Historically, the bad 
> ones

> were the infrequent exception. It seems it's not that way anymore.
>
> Bob Rentfro
> '77 300D 166K
> '87 Acura Legend  180K
> Litchfield Park, AZ
>
>
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/624 - Release Date: 
> 1/12/2007

>
>


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Re: [MBZ] OT Winows XP annoying click requirement

[LarryT]

Go to the MSN website and look for an application called TweakUI - if it;s 
not there try searching http://www.pcworld.com/downloads/  - it these are 
unsuccessful Google TweakUI.


Theres lots of Tweaks in there with all manners of short cuts.   Look for 
log on and you can enter a user name and password that will automatically be 
used during log on.


This will essentially bypass the logon screen you mentioned -

HTHs

Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/
.
- Original Message - 
From: "Zoltan Finks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 3:17 AM
Subject: [MBZ] OT Winows XP annoying click requirement



Does anyone know if there is a way to disable the requirement that Windows
XP has that the user click on their user icon in order to get the computer
to either turn on or to wake up?

We "upgraded" from 98 to XP some months ago, and the most annoying feature
is that when I turn on the computer, I am required to be there to 
physically

move the mouse to the little frog icon and click so that the stupid thing
can proceed with its startup procedure. In the past, I would hit the power
button to turn the computer on, then I'd leave the room and do something
else, then come back to my waiting computer ready for action. Now, with
XP, I have to come back just to click on the damned frog, then go away 
again

while it finishes the final 2/3 of its startup procedure, and then I can
come back and use my computer. Any way around this?

Also:

Has anyone installed "Virtual Earth 3D" and run it successfully? It's that
map/locating program, but I guess they now have a way you can see (I'm
assuming fly-through photography) great new 3D views of selected cities. I
tried to install it on both my desktop and my laptop, but unsuccessful. 
Any

experiences here?

Thanks
Brian
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[MBZ] bounces

[Billr]

Kaleb - I just had to reinstall MS Office Professional and suddenly am
getting bounces all over the place.  I thought I had everything the same,
but I guess not.  Any clue as to what I need to change?

BillR  

-- next part --
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Re: [MBZ] OT Winows XP annoying click requirement

[Billr]

I use XP on two computers [both came with it as the OS though, no upgrades]
and I have never seen a frog icon. Must be from something else.  I hit the
power button [on the rare occasion that I turn one off] and either wait a
minute or come back later to a ready computer. 
BillR  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Zoltan Finks
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 3:18 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: [MBZ] OT Winows XP annoying click requirement

Does anyone know if there is a way to disable the requirement that Windows
XP has that the user click on their user icon in order to get the computer
to either turn on or to wake up?

We "upgraded" from 98 to XP some months ago, and the most annoying feature
is that when I turn on the computer, I am required to be there to physically
move the mouse to the little frog icon and click so that the stupid thing
can proceed with its startup procedure. In the past, I would hit the power
button to turn the computer on, then I'd leave the room and do something
else, then come back to my waiting computer ready for action. Now, with XP,
I have to come back just to click on the damned frog, then go away again
while it finishes the final 2/3 of its startup procedure, and then I can
come back and use my computer. Any way around this?

Also:

Has anyone installed "Virtual Earth 3D" and run it successfully? It's that
map/locating program, but I guess they now have a way you can see (I'm
assuming fly-through photography) great new 3D views of selected cities. I
tried to install it on both my desktop and my laptop, but unsuccessful. Any
experiences here?

Thanks
 Brian
___
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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Cadillac

[Billr]

"<>
 
After my father-in-Law became successful enough with his fishing equipment
[Pompanette - which also had a great reputation until he sold the business
and retired] he bought only Cadillac.  That ended when the quality dropped.
He said he used to be able to tell a big difference in quality, but when
that went away so did his business with them.  On a similar note, a friend
who sold new cars and had been through the GM school for employees, said
that the major difference between a Chevy and a Buick was 1/4 turn on the
bolts [am I dated myself here?] used to hold them together.  I am sure there
is more to the story than that, but it was presented as an intentional
design/manufacturing difference for quality of the finished product so that
consumers would continue to pay extra to buy a Buick instead of a Chevy.
BillR 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Jim Cathey
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 8:46 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

> If MB is selling more cars than ever before, how can they be junk?  
> They must be doing something right.

You mean like Microsoft and McDonalds?

They _are_ junk, but grasshopper is wise to fear their near-invincible
marketdroids.  _We_ are responsible for their success, don't forget.

It took a lot of years for GM to ruin Cadillac's reputation, which was once
as lustrous as Mercedes.  It won't be long now before Cadillac's star again
shines like Mercedes' in the firmament, unfortunately for the wrong reason!

They'll be _two_ brown turds lying on the beach, comparing their tans.  Me?
I'll just step around them both.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT Winows XP annoying click requirement

[Levi Smith]

I'm not sure if there's an easier way, but you could set up AutoAdminLogon
in the registry.  You could probably google it.  If I remember correctly
it's in localmachine\microsoft\windowsnt\currentversion\winlogon  you need
to have that autoadminlogon key set to 1, and the defaultusername,
defaultdomain and defaultpassword all set.

Levi

On 1/14/07, Zoltan Finks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Does anyone know if there is a way to disable the requirement that Windows
XP has that the user click on their user icon in order to get the computer
to either turn on or to wake up?

We "upgraded" from 98 to XP some months ago, and the most annoying feature
is that when I turn on the computer, I am required to be there to
physically
move the mouse to the little frog icon and click so that the stupid thing
can proceed with its startup procedure. In the past, I would hit the power
button to turn the computer on, then I'd leave the room and do something
else, then come back to my waiting computer ready for action. Now, with
XP, I have to come back just to click on the damned frog, then go away
again
while it finishes the final 2/3 of its startup procedure, and then I can
come back and use my computer. Any way around this?

Also:

Has anyone installed "Virtual Earth 3D" and run it successfully? It's that
map/locating program, but I guess they now have a way you can see (I'm
assuming fly-through photography) great new 3D views of selected cities. I
tried to install it on both my desktop and my laptop, but unsuccessful.
Any
experiences here?

Thanks
Brian
___
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For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota

[Billr]

My story was based on a company Corolla, probably a 1992 that I was assigned
when I hired on in 1994 [I let the wife have my '75 240D].  When I first
took the car to the Toyota dealer and gave the service manager a list of
items that were causing me concern [can't remember the list anymore] his
first comment was that mine must be a US manufactured car.  He then checked
the VIN and confirmed that it did indeed come from a plant here.  I assume
US/Japan plants used the same parts, or parts made here using the same specs
[anybody know about that?], so the difference was where it was put together.
I'd not want to start a thread on work habits [willingness to do a
mind-numbing job day after day] or cultural values, but the finished product
seems to have been different depending mostly on where it was put together.
BillR
Jacksonville FL
1981 300SD  283k miles
  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Jim Cathey
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 8:38 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

> Somebody who knows more than me should point out the difference in 
> Japanese QC vs German QC.  The Germans accept a certain amount of bad 
> cars, and try like heck to catch them and fix them before shipping 
> them, while the Japanese see any bad car as a problem in the process, 
> and find a way to fix the process so that problem just doesn't happen 
> anymore.  Have I got that right?

Maybe more of an asian thing rather than just Japanese, 20 years ago when we
had some contract manufacturing done in Taiwan I was sent over to look at
the initial production.  As the designing engineer I was able to look at
what they'd made.  (Which was, at that time, exactly what we would have
built locally.)  They had a pile of bad units stacked to one side, and I was
going through them one by one.  I'm sure they were worried that there was a
systematic problem, but each one was just normal (in my book) fallout.
Every one had something different wrong with it, and nothing caused me any
particular worry.

I vividly remember one instance where I determined that there was a bad PAL
device, and according to my practice I just popped it out of its socket and
smashed it, so that a bad one wouldn't be mistaken for good.  A minor
commotion ensued, one of their engineers grabbed it up and ran off with it,
carrying it like it was a valuable and delicate item.  Or a sick pet.

I don't think I'd want to have been whomever was responsible for programming
it.  I'm sure they wanted to chase down _exactly_ what was wrong with it to
see if there was some part of the process to fix.

I kind of doubt that China, however, is exhibiting this type of trait.  In
my mind they are more cowboys than that, and in a way more like us.  But I
could be wrong.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT Winows XP annoying click requirement

[Jeff Zedic]

Brian,

I had installed Virtual Earth but found it disappointing. It was ok and I
didn't keep it long, it was a big download too. 3D version must be
differeent because I never had any city fly throughs.

Onmy XP, I only have to click the user icon when I wake my computer from
standby. When I first fire it up I don't have to do anything, t just goes
right to my desktop. If you have ore than one profile installed, (user) then
you will have to do this. You can check for more options under control
panel/user accounts

Jeff Zedic
London

[MBZ] OT Winows XP annoying click requirement

[Zoltan Finks]

Does anyone know if there is a way to disable the requirement that Windows
XP has that the user click on their user icon in order to get the computer
to either turn on or to wake up?

We "upgraded" from 98 to XP some months ago, and the most annoying feature
is that when I turn on the computer, I am required to be there to physically
move the mouse to the little frog icon and click so that the stupid thing
can proceed with its startup procedure. In the past, I would hit the power
button to turn the computer on, then I'd leave the room and do something
else, then come back to my waiting computer ready for action. Now, with
XP, I have to come back just to click on the damned frog, then go away again
while it finishes the final 2/3 of its startup procedure, and then I can
come back and use my computer. Any way around this?

Also:

Has anyone installed "Virtual Earth 3D" and run it successfully? It's that
map/locating program, but I guess they now have a way you can see (I'm
assuming fly-through photography) great new 3D views of selected cities. I
tried to install it on both my desktop and my laptop, but unsuccessful. Any
experiences here?

Thanks
Brian

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[Gary Hurst]

my father came to america in 1950, when we still built cars that were
the standard for the world.  when i was a kid in the 70s, my dad would
look at all the new cars in great sadness, stunned at the build and
finish quality.  he declared the big 3 to be diseased and dying.

i don't think my dad saw anything that millions of others didn't see.
it was obvious.  except the caretakers of the US auto industry, the
men paid huge sums to money to see and correct such thing, didn't have
a clue.

same thing at benz today, no?

things just repeat themselves.  no one learns anything.  there was
once this foreign adventure in a place called vietnam where i was told
we learned some great lesson, but now we see we've learned nothing.
the emperor never has any clothes and is always the last one to figure
it out.



On 1/14/07, Bob Rentfro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

That's exactly how it happens.
Very eloquent, Hursty.

Bob R


- Original Message -
From: "Gary Hurst" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality


> "junk" may not be the right word (except, well, in the case of MLs).
> consider the question in these terms.  are they like the mercedes that
> we drive and love or are they something quite different?  say you were
> a fairly affluent fellow in the market for a "luxury" car 35 years
> ago.  you go to the cadillac dealer because that is where everyone
> goes to buy a luxury car.  the salesman sees from the cut of your wash
> and wear leisure suit that you are a man who will settle for nothing
> but the best, so he busts out that brand new 1972 Fleetwood Brougham.
>
> my, what a car!  you wish your living room sectional sofa were this
> nice!  the car is just huge, announcing your presence.  it cruises the
> highway in serene silence and comfort, the huge massive torque motor
> effortlessly gliding you through any situation as the AC blows ice
> cold air on you and your 5 passengers.  you ARE a pimp, young man!
>
> you think about checking out a rolls royce, but the price is just too
> high to justify for a car, so you check out mercedes.  so you go down
> to the benz dealer and look at a 280SEL 4.5.  hmmm, it's a bit more
> money than that cadillac and isn't quite as well equipped or
> appointed, but you notice something.  the paint just looks better and
> hte body panels all seem to fit with great precision.  suddenly, the
> cadillac's snazy interior looks flat cheap.  was that plastic in the
> cadillac or wood like here in the mercedes?  you look under the hood
> and you see a thorougly modern overhead cam V8 with state of the art
> electronic fuel injection.
>
> and then you drive and it all comes together for you.  no creeks.  no
> rattles.  the steering and suspension feel much heavier than the
> cadillac, but it is just as comfortable.  you can actually get a feel
> for the road as you drive and increase speed.  you hit the brakes and
> the car actually slows raplidly in a straight line.   the car is of
> one complete piece, a unity, a whole.  it is a precision machine and
> you are now converted to a new way of looking the automotive world.
>
> could it happen like this today?  is mercedes now a special car or
> just another expensive status car?  is the build and materials quality
> really still the best?  can all the advanced electronics be trusted or
> is bosch just flat committed to being the new lucas?  will you still
> be driving it in 20, 30 or 40 years or do you see yourself running
> back to the dealer the day before the extended warranty expires?
>
> they are not "junk" in the sense of a yugo being "junk."  I'd go as
> far as to agree that they are really, really nice cars and an absolute
> pleasure drive.  but i'll also say that they are NOT the mercedes cars
> we know and love.
>
> for the sake of getting along, i'm just going to leave with some of us
> just prefer our mass in latin, i suppose.  but there is more there to
> our disatisfaction.


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[MBZ] My new M100

[Jim Cathey]

Just bought one tonight.  Reasonably priced, reasonable quality.

Sadly, it was a bottle of Columbia Valley (WA) wine, not a car.
OTOH, my wife let me live, too.  I meant to bring the bottle home
for my garage, but I forgot.

-- Jim

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[Jim Cathey]

Where will you step?


Why, over to my collection of pre-'90 Mercedes, of course!

-- Jim

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[Werner Fehlauer]

Chris - I don't think your understanding of Japanese and German QC is 
correct.  Both (and probably all) manufacturers have peaks and valleys in 
their QC measurements.  The trick is to narrow this gap, and the successful 
companies work very hard to do quality testing at the lowest level (i.e. at 
the suppliers) and then continue checking as components and material make it 
into the final product.  The more comprehensive this process, the better the 
final product.  If QC was perfect and the final products never had failures, 
there would be no need for a warranty!


In the case of our favorite car brand, I believe that too much of the 
initial QC has been left to suppliers, and therefore they have allowed parts 
into the final assembly that may have more latent flaws than can be 
accepted.  Part of this problem is the age-old concept of low bidder; if a 
supplier had more control and testing, they would have to raise their 
prices, and thereby lose their contracts.  All companies try to buy their 
material at the lowest cost, in order to sell the final product 
competitively.


It just appears that at this time, some of the Japanese firms have managed 
to have tighter control of their suppliers.  But there is "junk" out there 
to buy from any country - its still caveat emptor!


Werner



- Original Message - 
From: "Chris Kueny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality


Somebody who knows more than me should point out the difference in 
Japanese

QC vs German QC.  The Germans accept a certain amount of bad cars, and try
like heck to catch them and fix them before shipping them, while the
Japanese see any bad car as a problem in the process, and find a way to 
fix

the process so that problem just doesn't happen anymore.  Have I got that
right?

Chris K
Cayce, SC

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[Zoltan Finks]

Where will you step?

Brian

Jim wrote:

It took a lot of years for GM to ruin Cadillac's reputation,
which was once as lustrous as Mercedes.  It won't be long
now before Cadillac's star again shines like Mercedes' in
the firmament, unfortunately for the wrong reason!

They'll be _two_ brown turds lying on the beach, comparing
their tans.  Me?  I'll just step around them both.

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[Zoltan Finks]

Very good point. I go with the odds when buying something. I need that
assurance that I'm getting into something good with my money.

In fact, that's why I became convinced to pursue an older Mercedes - all the
praise on this very list. As a side note, I read a wee bit too much into the
praise, and didn't take into account that if the vehcile is not maintained
the legendary MB reliability will not be there.

But, again, thanks Dave for making a point that I probably would have made
if you hadn't.

Although, the operative variable may be the measure of "occasional". There
will always be the occasional mess up in producing things. But that value
should be small enough so that a buyer can have a good amount of assurance
that they will probably come out okay.

Brian
83 240D

David wrote:

Even if it's only the occasional lemon, that points to bad quality
control.  Even if the bulk of their output is good, inconsistency is
always worrisome.  How can you know if you're buying a good one or a bad
one?

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[Bob Rentfro]

That's exactly how it happens.
Very eloquent, Hursty.

Bob R


- Original Message - 
From: "Gary Hurst" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality



"junk" may not be the right word (except, well, in the case of MLs).
consider the question in these terms.  are they like the mercedes that
we drive and love or are they something quite different?  say you were
a fairly affluent fellow in the market for a "luxury" car 35 years
ago.  you go to the cadillac dealer because that is where everyone
goes to buy a luxury car.  the salesman sees from the cut of your wash
and wear leisure suit that you are a man who will settle for nothing
but the best, so he busts out that brand new 1972 Fleetwood Brougham.

my, what a car!  you wish your living room sectional sofa were this
nice!  the car is just huge, announcing your presence.  it cruises the
highway in serene silence and comfort, the huge massive torque motor
effortlessly gliding you through any situation as the AC blows ice
cold air on you and your 5 passengers.  you ARE a pimp, young man!

you think about checking out a rolls royce, but the price is just too
high to justify for a car, so you check out mercedes.  so you go down
to the benz dealer and look at a 280SEL 4.5.  hmmm, it's a bit more
money than that cadillac and isn't quite as well equipped or
appointed, but you notice something.  the paint just looks better and
hte body panels all seem to fit with great precision.  suddenly, the
cadillac's snazy interior looks flat cheap.  was that plastic in the
cadillac or wood like here in the mercedes?  you look under the hood
and you see a thorougly modern overhead cam V8 with state of the art
electronic fuel injection.

and then you drive and it all comes together for you.  no creeks.  no
rattles.  the steering and suspension feel much heavier than the
cadillac, but it is just as comfortable.  you can actually get a feel
for the road as you drive and increase speed.  you hit the brakes and
the car actually slows raplidly in a straight line.   the car is of
one complete piece, a unity, a whole.  it is a precision machine and
you are now converted to a new way of looking the automotive world.

could it happen like this today?  is mercedes now a special car or
just another expensive status car?  is the build and materials quality
really still the best?  can all the advanced electronics be trusted or
is bosch just flat committed to being the new lucas?  will you still
be driving it in 20, 30 or 40 years or do you see yourself running
back to the dealer the day before the extended warranty expires?

they are not "junk" in the sense of a yugo being "junk."  I'd go as
far as to agree that they are really, really nice cars and an absolute
pleasure drive.  but i'll also say that they are NOT the mercedes cars
we know and love.

for the sake of getting along, i'm just going to leave with some of us
just prefer our mass in latin, i suppose.  but there is more there to
our disatisfaction.

[MBZ] w124 wiper cover removal for greasing?

[John M McIntosh]

The cold weather up here in the NW has shown the 90's W124 needs to  
have the wiper mech greased.


In looking into this, plus reading notes on the internet it says to  
use a pick or allen wrench on the lower flange of the wiper rod housing
at the 5 and 7 o'clock position stick in hole to unlatch the housing.  
I'll note there are two holes there, plus what looks like
two stainless steel screw ends flush to the housing. But as much as I  
try I can't figure out how to unlatch the housing.  I'm not sure if the
holes are just for drainage, and the stainless steel ends the latch  
ends, that or the single Phillips screw on the bottom edge is holding  
it together.
However nothing,out  in the wholesome freezing cold I might add,  
works to get the housing open.
Helpfully there seems to be a number of changes to the mech over the  
years and even if some series look the same, they are different.


Anyone perform  this task successfully?

In greasing the wiper rod since it I can access that I used Liquid  
Grease (NLGI Class 00)   MB Part No. A001 989 08 51 10, which likely  
is a bit light.
However that improved the speed of the wiper by 100%, perhaps normal  
speed from oh shit that looks like trouble.
Still I'd like to get inside and grease the rails and the other side  
of the rod, sadly as other note this doesn't seem to be a service  
point when all
the other grease points on the wagon are done, not a trace of grease  
on the rod.



John
1983 300TDt  374k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)
1990's 300TDt  184k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)
1993 500SEL 186k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)

Re: [MBZ] was: rubbing compound on hood, now Correct Way to Wax

[Peter Frederick]

Thin white haze, wipes off with light pressure.

You are only removing the excess, the wax stuck to the paint won't turn 
white.


Peter

Re: [MBZ] was: rubbing compound on hood, now Correct Way to Wax

[Zoltan Finks]

So when your wax is applied, does it dry to a whiteish/opaque apearance? Or
is there not enough wax present for it to do that? What does the correct
amount look/act like?

Brian


On 1/13/07, Peter Frederick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Surprised me when I found out about it too.

I used to fill a couple bath towels with wax doing a single car, now
just use a small terry polisher (on the rare occasions I wax mine).  I
finally figured out a very thin layer of wax will buff up very nicely
and quickly with very light pressure.  A thick coat, and it all ends up
on the cloth.

Peter


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Re: [MBZ] was: rubbing compound on hood, now Correct Way to Wax

[Peter Frederick]

Surprised me when I found out about it too.

I used to fill a couple bath towels with wax doing a single car, now 
just use a small terry polisher (on the rare occasions I wax mine).  I 
finally figured out a very thin layer of wax will buff up very nicely 
and quickly with very light pressure.  A thick coat, and it all ends up 
on the cloth.


Peter

[MBZ] 124 alarm problems

[Ralph W]

The alarm in my '87 300TD seems to have a mind of it's own every day or two the 
alarm will go off for no apparent reason. Does anyone know what causes this? As 
an alternative how can I disable the alarm? I really don't need an alarm on a 
20 year old car where I live. I checked the fuse box and couldn't find any 
mention of the alarm. Does it have it's own fuse somewhere alse? Any info would 
be appreciated by my neighbors.

Ralph W.
'83 300CD '82 300TD (2 parts wagons)
'90 300D   '01 E320 Wagon
'87 300TD
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I disabled mine long ago.  Remove your passenger side front mat, and lift up
the plastic/metal(?) plate at the front of the footwell.  Under that, you
should see an electric box with a Becker tag on it.  Simply remove the plug
to this unit, and the problems should be resolved.  I think the problems
you're experiencing are due to some issues with your drivers side door
lock.  I suspect that if you were to install a remote locking setup, this
would no longer be an issue.

YMMV

On 1/13/07, Ralph W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The alarm in my '87 300TD seems to have a mind of it's own every day or
> two the alarm will go off for no apparent reason. Does anyone know what
> causes this? As an alternative how can I disable the alarm? I really don't
> need an alarm on a 20 year old car where I live. I checked the fuse box and
> couldn't find any mention of the alarm. Does it have it's own fuse somewhere
> alse? Any info would be appreciated by my neighbors.
>
>
Casey
Olympia, WA
Biodiesel: "I drive in a persistent vegetative state"
'87 300TD intercooler/propane #22 0-60mph 7.3sec (220k)
'84 300D (218k)
Gashuffer:
'89 Vanagon Wolfsburg Edition (187K)
'89 Audi 90Q (202k)
http://users.zhonka.net/zeitgeist/Misc/IMG_0171.JPG

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[John W. Reames III]

On Sat, 13 Jan 2007, Tom Hargrave wrote:
> Can these defective Mercedes be isolated cases that once they start on
> the net, never seem to die?

MAYBE but the rusty bubble issues you ehar about on W210s.. I see a few on 
one of mine. No perforation on the outside either, factory paint. If 
ANYONE buys a newer mercedes AVOID color code 702 (smoke silver) at any 
cost (hard since most of them were that color). According to glasurit, 
there are approximately 15 different variants of it used! I have been told 
by a couple of bodyshops that matching it is such a pain in the *** that 
they just strip the panel and repaint it with blending into the next 
panel! (WTF?)

so maybe, but W210 rust bubbles can happen, and color 702 is common but 
apparently no two 702's are the same color (I notice there is a decided 
difference between my 1st 99 and my stepfather-in-law's 2000 E320 (which 
looks decidedly gold), both are 702, but I chalk that up to his being 
post-facelift.

Anyhow... Joy!

I do notice that on the newer mercedes they put frame opening plugs into 
all of the tow-tiedown slots just to help keep the water out. (Neat idea!)

-j.

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[Dimitri Seretakis]

> > If MB is selling more cars than ever before, how
> can
> > they be junk?  They must be doing something right.
> 
> You mean like Microsoft and McDonalds?

Good point




 

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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[Hendrik Riessen]

A good parallel to look at is Grundig, which once upon a time was the 
Mercedes of electronic goods. I bought a Grundig TV a couple of years ago 
which was priced a bit less than a Sony. Anyway it has turned out to be a 
piece of junk with crappy sound and issues with the picture. Well it finally 
died altogether(thankfully a couple of weeks before the warranty ran out) 
and I pulled the back off it to see if there was anything I could see wrong. 
To my surprise I found that the picture tube was made by LG in Korea and 
some of the other components where made by Phillips.
Not happy that a supposed quality German brand is using parts made in Korea, 
I surfed the net for more info and found that Grundig is now owned by a 
English and Turkish consortium who appear to be trading off the good name 
built up over years.
I will not be recommending Grundig products to anyone, same with Mercedes, 
trading off the name while Karl and Gottlieb are spinning in their graves.
However all is not lost, I heard the other day that DC is pulling out of the 
Airbus venture to get some money together to spend on developing cars.


- Original Message - 
From: "Gary Hurst" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 5:13 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality



and yet they sell more cars then ever before.  people just like junk?

as i have mentioned many times before, mercedes is the new jaguar.
it's pretty much over.

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[Jim Cathey]

If MB is selling more cars than ever before, how can
they be junk?  They must be doing something right.


You mean like Microsoft and McDonalds?

They _are_ junk, but grasshopper is wise to fear their
near-invincible marketdroids.  _We_ are responsible for
their success, don't forget.

It took a lot of years for GM to ruin Cadillac's reputation,
which was once as lustrous as Mercedes.  It won't be long
now before Cadillac's star again shines like Mercedes' in
the firmament, unfortunately for the wrong reason!

They'll be _two_ brown turds lying on the beach, comparing
their tans.  Me?  I'll just step around them both.

-- Jim

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[Jim Cathey]

while most companies remain fundamentally unaware of the internet...
...they will soon be
unable to survive relying on their traditional method of control
through disinformation.  they just mostly don't know it yet.


There is irony there.

-- Jim

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[Jim Cathey]

Somebody who knows more than me should point out the difference in 
Japanese
QC vs German QC.  The Germans accept a certain amount of bad cars, and 
try

like heck to catch them and fix them before shipping them, while the
Japanese see any bad car as a problem in the process, and find a way 
to fix
the process so that problem just doesn't happen anymore.  Have I got 
that

right?


Maybe more of an asian thing rather than just Japanese, 20 years ago
when we had some contract manufacturing done in Taiwan I was sent over
to look at the initial production.  As the designing engineer I was
able to look at what they'd made.  (Which was, at that time, exactly
what we would have built locally.)  They had a pile of bad units
stacked to one side, and I was going through them one by one.  I'm
sure they were worried that there was a systematic problem, but each
one was just normal (in my book) fallout.  Every one had something
different wrong with it, and nothing caused me any particular worry.

I vividly remember one instance where I determined that there was
a bad PAL device, and according to my practice I just popped it out
of its socket and smashed it, so that a bad one wouldn't be mistaken
for good.  A minor commotion ensued, one of their engineers grabbed
it up and ran off with it, carrying it like it was a valuable and
delicate item.  Or a sick pet.

I don't think I'd want to have been whomever was responsible for
programming it.  I'm sure they wanted to chase down _exactly_ what
was wrong with it to see if there was some part of the process to
fix.

I kind of doubt that China, however, is exhibiting this type of
trait.  In my mind they are more cowboys than that, and in a way
more like us.  But I could be wrong.

-- Jim

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[Dimitri Seretakis]

While I agree that the MB taxis in europe don't have
all the bells and whistles of the cars available to
the public, they are still very well appointed cars. 
It maybe true that they lack some of the electronic
equipment that our cars may have that might make them
more reliable, but build quality does not change.  In
my opinion MB cars are not what they used to be
(plastic chrome, cheaper carpet materials etc) but
this is not any different from any other car
manufacturer.  It is disappointing that MB has had to
cheapen there cars to get with the times.  I've had
numerous conversations with european taxi drivers and
they feel that the W124 diesels were the last of the
best-this does not mean that the current cars are not
good.  Looking back at the history of Mercedes-Benz
there was a differnce in the mentality of DMG vs Benz.
 Before the merger in 1926 Mercedes cars were
glamorous, sexy, innovative, and powerful but not as
reliable as Benz cars.  Benz cars were more
utilitarian, more reliable, less aesthetically
appealing workhorses.  The merger of course combined
the great attributes of both cars to build a great
company.  Mercedes was still the stronger half.  The
cars of today are more "Mercedes" than "Benz".  This
may not be a bad thing for now.  A company is a
dynamic entity.  Hopefully we will start seeing some
more "Benz" in these cars.
Dimitri
73 220D 
--- Werner Fehlauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dimitri - what people (and especially taxi drivers)
> are able to buy in 
> Europe is something completely different from what
> MBUSA is offering.  And 
> you won't find hardly ANY M-B taxis in the USA.
> In Europe, you can purchase a basic car, manual
> transmission, cloth 
> upholstery, steel wheels, much less electronics.  In
> the USA, they are sold 
> to satisfy a luxury image, with all the bells and
> whistles they can pack in. 
> When all these bits and pieces start to fail, the
> image suffers, and a lot 
> of former owners have switched to leasing, and are
> as apt to try a Lexus or 
> other brand when the mood suits them.
> And I'd bet that a European buyer of an S-Class
> would not put up with any 
> brush-off from a dealer, at least more than once.
> 
> Werner
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Dimitri Seretakis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Mercedes Discussion List"
> 
> Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 4:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality
> 
> 
> > If MB is selling more cars than ever before, how
> can
> > they be junk?  They must be doing something right.
> > Sure the price is right and they are loaded with
> > features but an upwardly steep sales curve cannot
> be
> > attributed to just that.  A very large number of
> new
> > model MB taxis cruise the streets in europe.  Taxi
> > drivers don't buy unreliable junk.
> > Dimitri
> > 73 220D
> 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new parts see official list sponsor:
> http://www.buymbparts.com/
> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>
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Re: [MBZ] Piston cooling

[RELNGSON]

In re: oil cooled pistons:

> < too, but I have no knowledge of them.>>
> 
The 1976 Porsche 911 Turbo's pistons were cooled by oil jets to the underside 
except that there was a side to side passage in the piston that the oil went 
through, coming out the other side. Of course, this engine produced a lot more 
heat than a diesel. And it was air-cooled. In those pre-synthetic days, 250 
deg f was considered the top limit with normal and ideal oil temp being 210 deg 
f.

RLE
> 
> 

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[Chris Kueny]

Somebody who knows more than me should point out the difference in Japanese 
QC vs German QC.  The Germans accept a certain amount of bad cars, and try 
like heck to catch them and fix them before shipping them, while the 
Japanese see any bad car as a problem in the process, and find a way to fix 
the process so that problem just doesn't happen anymore.  Have I got that 
right?


Chris K
Cayce, SC




- Original Message - 
From: "Gary Hurst" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality



the internet has killed any capacity for coverup.  in the old days,
the manufacturer could always say that your problem is some sort of
strange anomaly.  perhaps you drive funny?

while most companies remain fundamentally unaware of the internet, we
now know when they are flat out lying to us, instead of just having
suspicions and doubts as before.

i have a 2 year old $2,000 omega watch.  it's running slow about 15
seconds a day over roughly hte past year, which isn't all the horrible
for mechanical watch, but certainly unacceptable for a watch of this
class that used to run to within a second a day.  because of the
internet, i know of very many specific examples of this happening.  I
also know that people in the USA who contact omega are referred to an
authorized US Omega service center and are basically blown off and
told to accept this problem as normal and typical.  I also know that
those who have sent their watch back to the manufacturer in Bienne,
Switzerland requested that this issue be addressed have had the
escapment replaced and hte problem solved at no cost to them.

the internet is just a nightmare for these folks and they will soon be
unable to survive relying on their traditional method of control
through disinformation.  they just mostly don't know it yet.

On 1/13/07, LarryT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Bob wrote<>

You know, the internet has changed things more ways that we can even 
dream -
communication is probably one of the biggest changes - I wonder if 
perhaps
owners who have problems have a better way to publicize their problems 
than
before?  Before the New, it was word of mouth, newspapers and if lucky, 
TV.
Now, a problem appears in the morning and before lunch it can be part of 
a

forum (or several) being spread all over the world.

Perhaps?

Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/
.
- Original Message -
From: "Bob Rentfro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality


> Tom mentioned:
>
> "I have several friends with newer Mercedes and they all seem pleased
> with them."
>
> ...and then he wondered:
>
> "Can these defective Mercedes be isolated cases that once they start on
> the net, never seem to die?"
>
> My friend has a '05 C230 and he loves. It has been flawless. Another 
> work

> associate has a '05 C230 and it has been one headache after another.
> There have always been good ones and bad ones. Historically, the bad 
> ones

> were the infrequent exception. It seems it's not that way anymore.
>
> Bob Rentfro
> '77 300D 166K
> '87 Acura Legend  180K
> Litchfield Park, AZ
>
>
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/624 - Release Date: 
> 1/12/2007

>
>


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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality

[Gary Hurst]

the internet has killed any capacity for coverup.  in the old days,
the manufacturer could always say that your problem is some sort of
strange anomaly.  perhaps you drive funny?

while most companies remain fundamentally unaware of the internet, we
now know when they are flat out lying to us, instead of just having
suspicions and doubts as before.

i have a 2 year old $2,000 omega watch.  it's running slow about 15
seconds a day over roughly hte past year, which isn't all the horrible
for mechanical watch, but certainly unacceptable for a watch of this
class that used to run to within a second a day.  because of the
internet, i know of very many specific examples of this happening.  I
also know that people in the USA who contact omega are referred to an
authorized US Omega service center and are basically blown off and
told to accept this problem as normal and typical.  I also know that
those who have sent their watch back to the manufacturer in Bienne,
Switzerland requested that this issue be addressed have had the
escapment replaced and hte problem solved at no cost to them.

the internet is just a nightmare for these folks and they will soon be
unable to survive relying on their traditional method of control
through disinformation.  they just mostly don't know it yet.

On 1/13/07, LarryT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Bob wrote<>

You know, the internet has changed things more ways that we can even dream -
communication is probably one of the biggest changes - I wonder if perhaps
owners who have problems have a better way to publicize their problems than
before?  Before the New, it was word of mouth, newspapers and if lucky, TV.
Now, a problem appears in the morning and before lunch it can be part of a
forum (or several) being spread all over the world.

Perhaps?

Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/
.
- Original Message -
From: "Bob Rentfro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality


> Tom mentioned:
>
> "I have several friends with newer Mercedes and they all seem pleased
> with them."
>
> ...and then he wondered:
>
> "Can these defective Mercedes be isolated cases that once they start on
> the net, never seem to die?"
>
> My friend has a '05 C230 and he loves. It has been flawless. Another work
> associate has a '05 C230 and it has been one headache after another.
> There have always been good ones and bad ones. Historically, the bad ones
> were the infrequent exception. It seems it's not that way anymore.
>
> Bob Rentfro
> '77 300D 166K
> '87 Acura Legend  180K
> Litchfield Park, AZ
>
>
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/624 - Release Date: 1/12/2007
>
>


___
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