Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[fmiser via Mercedes]

> Andrew wrote:
> 
> This is a chicken and egg kind of thing. Did the SLS pump
> fail, sending oil through the system that damaged the
> spheres? If so, did this the flex hose to rupture? On the
> other hand, if the spheres were already defective, could
> this somehow have led to contamination of the SLS fluid,
> turning it black? Inquiring minds want to know.

Failing SLS accumulators (spheres) will NOT cause the oil to
turn black.

I have seen no evidence for or against engine oil causing
accumulator or hose damage.

With a failing pump seal, I have only seen SLS oil leak into
the engine - not engine oil leak into the pump.  That's
because the shaft is on the high-pressure side of the pump -
not the input/suction side.

The fluid get dark with age and use.  And if you have a hose
that's dead, I could see that maybe the deterioration of the
hose causing the fluid to get dark.

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Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

I did change the SLS relatively recently and it has been clear.  I'll
re-check the clarity of the remaining fluid in the SLS fill canister.  If
it's still clear and not sooty then it's likely that the faulty flex hose
itself had deteriorated to the point of contaminating the SLS fluid locally.

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 6:27 PM, fmiser via Mercedes 
wrote:

> > Andrew wrote:
> >
> > This is a chicken and egg kind of thing. Did the SLS pump
> > fail, sending oil through the system that damaged the
> > spheres? If so, did this the flex hose to rupture? On the
> > other hand, if the spheres were already defective, could
> > this somehow have led to contamination of the SLS fluid,
> > turning it black? Inquiring minds want to know.
>
> Failing SLS accumulators (spheres) will NOT cause the oil to
> turn black.
>
> I have seen no evidence for or against engine oil causing
> accumulator or hose damage.
>
> With a failing pump seal, I have only seen SLS oil leak into
> the engine - not engine oil leak into the pump.  That's
> because the shaft is on the high-pressure side of the pump -
> not the input/suction side.
>
> The fluid get dark with age and use.  And if you have a hose
> that's dead, I could see that maybe the deterioration of the
> hose causing the fluid to get dark.
>
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Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

You are correct.  A leaky flex hose is the culprit.  Part's on order from
the dealership.

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 7:20 AM, Max Dillon via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Sounds like SLS fluid to me, as Curt pointed out the differential fluid
> will reek of sulfur.
>
> If you start the car and the drip / leak resumes, probably SLS.
>
> Other possibilities: brake fluid (bitter taste), fuel (should smell like
> diesel).
>
> While the car is loaded with mulch, the SLS fluid reservoir level should
> drop, and in an unloaded state the level will rise.
> --
> Max Dillon
> Charleston SC
> '87 300TD
> '95 E300
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Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

The tech says it's a leaky SLS flex hose, between the rear strut and
nitrogen accumulator (air cell).  This is better than replacing the  rear
diff.  :)

Since the fluid is supposed to be clear but is black, does this also mean
my air cells are compromised and should be replaced again with new ones?



On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 1:46 AM, David Bruckmann <
bruckma...@transcontinental.ca> wrote:

> SLS fluid ought to be clear or light green/blue if the Febi version, but
> is often black when the pump seals start to go and allow engine oil to
> mingle with the hydraulic oil. This would be evident in the reservoir as
> well.
>
> Andrew Strasfogel wrote:
> >SLS fluid is clear and not black.
>
>
> --
> 
> David Bruckmann
> Planning Navigator
> TC • Transcontinental Northern California
> 47540 Kato Rd., Fremont, CA 94538
> Tel +1 510-580-7741   Cell +1 510-579-9920
> 
>
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Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I would do a flush and fill of your SLS system if the fluid is black. That's a 
good indication that it hasn't been changed in some time.

Simple to do and will cost under $30, if that.

Dan

Sent from my iPad

> On Aug 31, 2015, at 12:55 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> The tech says it's a leaky SLS flex hose, between the rear strut and
> nitrogen accumulator (air cell).  This is better than replacing the  rear
> diff.  :)
> 
> Since the fluid is supposed to be clear but is black, does this also mean
> my air cells are compromised and should be replaced again with new ones?
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 1:46 AM, David Bruckmann <
> bruckma...@transcontinental.ca> wrote:
> 
>> SLS fluid ought to be clear or light green/blue if the Febi version, but
>> is often black when the pump seals start to go and allow engine oil to
>> mingle with the hydraulic oil. This would be evident in the reservoir as
>> well.
>> 
>> Andrew Strasfogel wrote:
>>> SLS fluid is clear and not black.
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> David Bruckmann
>> Planning Navigator
>> TC • Transcontinental Northern California
>> 47540 Kato Rd., Fremont, CA 94538
>> Tel +1 510-580-7741   Cell +1 510-579-9920
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Andrew:  David wrote that black fluid can mean the SLS pump seals are leaking 
engine oil into the SLS system.  
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300
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Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

My tech thinks the air cells have gone bad but they are less than 5 years
old...

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 1:38 PM, Max Dillon via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Andrew:  David wrote that black fluid can mean the SLS pump seals are
> leaking engine oil into the SLS system.
> --
> Max Dillon
> Charleston SC
> '87 300TD
> '95 E300
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Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[Fred Moir via Mercedes]

My '85 123 TD has black SLS oil, the seals in the engine driven pump have 
failed.New, from J/Y,  pump with new seals will go in next and I hope that the 
engine oil has not rotted the spheres diaphragms.
YMMV
Fred Moir.Lynn MA.Diesel preferred.

> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 14:11:03 -0400
> To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon
> From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> CC: astrasfo...@gmail.com; dillonm...@gmail.com
> 
> My tech thinks the air cells have gone bad but they are less than 5 years
> old...
> 
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 1:38 PM, Max Dillon via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
> > Andrew:  David wrote that black fluid can mean the SLS pump seals are
> > leaking engine oil into the SLS system.
> > --
> > Max Dillon
> > Charleston SC
> > '87 300TD
> > '95 E300
  
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Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

You replaced the pump for how many $$s?  Who is "J/Y?

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Fred Moir via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> My '85 123 TD has black SLS oil, the seals in the engine driven pump have
> failed.New, from J/Y,  pump with new seals will go in next and I hope that
> the engine oil has not rotted the spheres diaphragms.
> YMMV
> Fred Moir.Lynn MA.Diesel preferred.
>
> > Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 14:11:03 -0400
> > To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> > Subject: Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon
> > From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> > CC: astrasfo...@gmail.com; dillonm...@gmail.com
> >
> > My tech thinks the air cells have gone bad but they are less than 5 years
> > old...
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 1:38 PM, Max Dillon via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Andrew:  David wrote that black fluid can mean the SLS pump seals are
> > > leaking engine oil into the SLS system.
> > > --
> > > Max Dillon
> > > Charleston SC
> > > '87 300TD
> > > '95 E300
>
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Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[Curly McLain via Mercedes]

The tech says it's a leaky SLS flex hose, between the rear strut and
nitrogen accumulator (air cell).  This is better than replacing the  rear
diff.  :)

Since the fluid is supposed to be clear but is black, does this also mean
my air cells are compromised and should be replaced again with new ones?



You need a new pump or at least a new seal  in the pump on the front 
of the engine.


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Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Don't bother Max, Andrew doesn't actually read any messages...
-Curt
  From: Max Dillon via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
 To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
Cc: Max Dillon <dillonm...@gmail.com> 
 Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 1:38 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon
   
Andrew:  David wrote that black fluid can mean the SLS pump seals are leaking 
engine oil into the SLS system.  
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300


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Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

This is a chicken and egg kind of thing. Did the SLS pump fail, sending oil
through the system that damaged the spheres? If so, did this the flex hose
to rupture? On the other hand, if the spheres were already defective, could
this somehow have led to contamination of the SLS fluid, turning it black?
Inquiring minds want to know.
On Aug 31, 2015 4:28 PM, "Curt Raymond via Mercedes" <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
wrote:

> I wonder if engine oil in the SLS fluid would damage the spheres.
> -Curt
>   From: Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
>  To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> Cc: Andrew Strasfogel <astrasfo...@gmail.com>; Max Dillon <
> dillonm...@gmail.com>
>  Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 2:11 PM
>  Subject: Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon
>
> My tech thinks the air cells have gone bad but they are less than 5 years
> old...
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 1:38 PM, Max Dillon via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > Andrew:  David wrote that black fluid can mean the SLS pump seals are
> > leaking engine oil into the SLS system.
> > --
> > Max Dillon
> > Charleston SC
> > '87 300TD
> > '95 E300
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
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> >
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> >
> >
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Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

I don't see how the spheres could turn the oil black while I do see how the 
engine oil could.

-Curt


  From: Andrew Strasfogel <astrasfo...@gmail.com>
 To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com>; Curt Raymond 
<curtlud...@yahoo.com> 
 Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 4:33 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon
   
This is a chicken and egg kind of thing. Did the SLS pump fail, sending oil 
through the system that damaged the spheres? If so, did this the flex hose to 
rupture? On the other hand, if the spheres were already defective, could this 
somehow have led to contamination of the SLS fluid, turning it black? Inquiring 
minds want to know.

On Aug 31, 2015 4:28 PM, "Curt Raymond via Mercedes" <mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
wrote:

I wonder if engine oil in the SLS fluid would damage the spheres.
-Curt
      From: Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
 To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
Cc: Andrew Strasfogel <astrasfo...@gmail.com>; Max Dillon <dillonm...@gmail.com>
 Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 2:11 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

My tech thinks the air cells have gone bad but they are less than 5 years
old...

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 1:38 PM, Max Dillon via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Andrew:  David wrote that black fluid can mean the SLS pump seals are
> leaking engine oil into the SLS system.
> --
> Max Dillon
> Charleston SC
> '87 300TD
> '95 E300
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>
>
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Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

I like that answer.  Sort of mimics my own line of thinking.

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 4:35 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I don't see how the spheres could turn the oil black while I do see how
> the engine oil could.
>
> -Curt
>
>
>   From: Andrew Strasfogel <astrasfo...@gmail.com>
>  To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com>; Curt Raymond <
> curtlud...@yahoo.com>
>  Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 4:33 PM
>  Subject: Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon
>
> This is a chicken and egg kind of thing. Did the SLS pump fail, sending
> oil through the system that damaged the spheres? If so, did this the flex
> hose to rupture? On the other hand, if the spheres were already defective,
> could this somehow have led to contamination of the SLS fluid, turning it
> black? Inquiring minds want to know.
>
> On Aug 31, 2015 4:28 PM, "Curt Raymond via Mercedes" <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> I wonder if engine oil in the SLS fluid would damage the spheres.
> -Curt
>   From: Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
>  To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> Cc: Andrew Strasfogel <astrasfo...@gmail.com>; Max Dillon <
> dillonm...@gmail.com>
>  Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 2:11 PM
>  Subject: Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon
>
> My tech thinks the air cells have gone bad but they are less than 5 years
> old...
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 1:38 PM, Max Dillon via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > Andrew:  David wrote that black fluid can mean the SLS pump seals are
> > leaking engine oil into the SLS system.
> > --
> > Max Dillon
> > Charleston SC
> > '87 300TD
> > '95 E300
> > ___
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> >
> >
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Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[David Bruckmann via Mercedes]

Just like old brake hoses, the hydraulic flex hoses don't last forever. If
anything they don't last as long because it's a mineral fluid, but they're
not as much of a life safety system. And if you load the car heavily, of
course that puts more stress on the hoses.

Fluid could get murky from a blown sphere and poor filtration / never
changing the oil, but typically in the MB systems, black fluid is  a
symptom of seals in the pump letting in engine oil. It's not the end  of
the world but it will eventually attack the seals and spheres because of
all the combustion byproducts etc in the oil. There's a repair procedure
for the pump seals in the 617 engine manual.

In most cases, seal failure is generally a precursor/indicator of bearing
wear. But a repair could last a long time...

D.

On Monday, August 31, 2015, Andrew Strasfogel  wrote:

> The tech says it's a leaky SLS flex hose, between the rear strut and
> nitrogen accumulator (air cell).  This is better than replacing the  rear
> diff.  :)
>
> Since the fluid is supposed to be clear but is black, does this also mean
> my air cells are compromised and should be replaced again with new ones?
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 1:46 AM, David Bruckmann <
> bruckma...@transcontinental.ca
> > wrote:
>
>> SLS fluid ought to be clear or light green/blue if the Febi version, but
>> is often black when the pump seals start to go and allow engine oil to
>> mingle with the hydraulic oil. This would be evident in the reservoir as
>> well.
>>
>> Andrew Strasfogel wrote:
>> >SLS fluid is clear and not black.
>>
>>
>> --
>> 
>> David Bruckmann
>> Planning Navigator
>> TC • Transcontinental Northern California
>> 47540 Kato Rd., Fremont, CA 94538
>> Tel +1 510-580-7741   Cell +1 510-579-9920
>> 
>>
>
>

-- 

David Bruckmann
Planning Navigator
TC • Transcontinental Northern California
47540 Kato Rd., Fremont, CA 94538
Tel +1 510-580-7741   Cell +1 510-579-9920

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Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

I don't see how the spheres could turn the oil black while I do see 
how the engine oil could.


Non-diesels don't usually get black oil.  But I've seen black
SLS on those.  The rubber diaphragms in the spheres can decompose,
as can the rubber strut hoses.  The rest of the system is 'hard'.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Sounds like SLS fluid to me, as Curt pointed out the differential fluid will 
reek of sulfur.

If you start the car and the drip / leak resumes, probably SLS.  

Other possibilities: brake fluid (bitter taste), fuel (should smell like 
diesel).

While the car is loaded with mulch, the SLS fluid reservoir level should drop, 
and in an unloaded state the level will rise.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300
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Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Jim said:     But I've seen black SLS on those.  The rubber diaphragms
in the spheres can decompose, as can the rubber strut
hoses.  ...

This agrees with my experience (79 TD).  After I replaced the old black SLS
oil and bad spheres, the new oil remained clear for several years.


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Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Sorry - it's black.  I have drained and replenished the rear diff fluid on
several of my cars over the years  Some is thin (for my W109 with ir
suspension) whereas others are 90W and syrupy. I am now unclear as to what
it might be.

On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 Diff oil isn't thin and it smells really bad of sulfur, it should be
 easily identifiable. I assume you'd have said if it was black engine oil.
 ATF is red, your power steering fluid might be too. SLS is, I think, mostly
 colorless.
 You did check the color of the fluid didn't you?
 -Curt
   From: Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
  To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Cc: Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com
  Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 10:15 PM
  Subject: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

 I came hope loaded with mulch after a long drive, backed up the driveway
 and then noticed drips of oil and followed them back into the street.  Then
 I saw a lake of thinnish oil under the REAR of the car, dripping lustily.
 I caught what was left in a drip pan and checked fluids under the hood.
 All seemed to be OK so I am concluding tentatively that this is rear diff
 fluid.  The self leveling suspension fluid level seems normal, and besides,
 SLS fluid is clear and not black.

 I have a tow truck lined up first thing tomorrow morning.  Has this sudden
 catastrophic loss of rear diff oil ever happened to anyone else?

 Andrew
 1983 300TD
 1985 300TD
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Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Diff oil isn't thin and it smells really bad of sulfur, it should be easily 
identifiable. I assume you'd have said if it was black engine oil. ATF is red, 
your power steering fluid might be too. SLS is, I think, mostly colorless.
You did check the color of the fluid didn't you?
-Curt
  From: Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
Cc: Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com 
 Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 10:15 PM
 Subject: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon
   
I came hope loaded with mulch after a long drive, backed up the driveway
and then noticed drips of oil and followed them back into the street.  Then
I saw a lake of thinnish oil under the REAR of the car, dripping lustily.
I caught what was left in a drip pan and checked fluids under the hood.
All seemed to be OK so I am concluding tentatively that this is rear diff
fluid.  The self leveling suspension fluid level seems normal, and besides,
SLS fluid is clear and not black.

I have a tow truck lined up first thing tomorrow morning.  Has this sudden
catastrophic loss of rear diff oil ever happened to anyone else?

Andrew
1983 300TD
1985 300TD
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Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[David Bruckmann via Mercedes]

SLS fluid ought to be clear or light green/blue if the Febi version, but is
often black when the pump seals start to go and allow engine oil to mingle
with the hydraulic oil. This would be evident in the reservoir as well.

Andrew Strasfogel wrote:
SLS fluid is clear and not black.


-- 

David Bruckmann
Planning Navigator
TC • Transcontinental Northern California
47540 Kato Rd., Fremont, CA 94538
Tel +1 510-580-7741   Cell +1 510-579-9920

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Re: [MBZ] Sudden loss of mystery oil in W123 300TD wagon

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Will you pay now and take delivery in 2025?
On Aug 30, 2015 11:52 PM, Kevin Kraly via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

 I can ease your mind and  take that money pit off your hands for 500
 bucks. :)

 Kevin in Hillsboro Oregon

 Sent from my iPhone

  On Aug 30, 2015, at 7:15 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
  I came hope loaded with mulch after a long drive, backed up the driveway
  and then noticed drips of oil and followed them back into the street.
 Then
  I saw a lake of thinnish oil under the REAR of the car, dripping lustily.
  I caught what was left in a drip pan and checked fluids under the hood.
  All seemed to be OK so I am concluding tentatively that this is rear diff
  fluid.  The self leveling suspension fluid level seems normal, and
 besides,
  SLS fluid is clear and not black.
 
  I have a tow truck lined up first thing tomorrow morning.  Has this
 sudden
  catastrophic loss of rear diff oil ever happened to anyone else?
 
  Andrew
  1983 300TD
  1985 300TD
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  To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
 
  To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
  http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
 

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