Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

This is what I've always called a salamander:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/154391255163 

Don't get too close!

-- Jim

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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

Correct. Salamanders were/are often used to heat large areas such as orchards 
or farm fields. We used them in apple orchards when I was a kid when there was 
a threat of a late frost.

-D

> On Jan 28, 2022, at 8:51 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
>> (sometimes called a torpedo or salamander) to thaw things out.
> 
> Torpedo sounds right.  What I've always called a salamander is a vertical
> unit, unpowered, that always puts me in mind of a V-1 flying bomb.  A
> passive stack of plumbing squatting over a tub of kerosene.  Very effective.
> Haven't seen one in quite awhile now.
> 
> -- Jim
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> (sometimes called a torpedo or salamander) to thaw things out.

Torpedo sounds right.  What I've always called a salamander is a vertical
unit, unpowered, that always puts me in mind of a V-1 flying bomb.  A
passive stack of plumbing squatting over a tub of kerosene.  Very effective.
Haven't seen one in quite awhile now.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

Mine is a “Gree”. Never heard of them before this, but apparently they’re on 
the scale of the other big guys.

My insulation guys have been using them for over 10 years and have done 
hundreds of installs. They say they’re quite good and have had few, if any 
issues over that time.

-D

> On Jan 27, 2022, at 9:30 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Where are they made? If they are Korean or Japanese they might be decent. If 
> they are Chinese, I would avoid. Fujitsu, Mitsubishi, and Samsung are some 
> names I've seen in mini-split installations at work.
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022, at 7:47 PM, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes wrote:
>> So I’m paying 8-10K for labor and warranty. Wow!
>> I’m looking into mrcool units. A complete 18K unit set up for DIY with 
>> a warranty runs $2K. I wonder how good these are.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>>> On Jan 27, 2022, at 7:33 PM, Jaime Kopchinski via Mercedes 
>>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> The units with parts needed (linesets, etc) would run about $9-10k
>>> wholesale for all three units (I got some Fujitsu quotes recently).  The
>>> rest of the money is labor and the warranty.  This is why I installed my
>>> own... I figured the warranty wasn't worth it.  I bought all the pro tools
>>> needed, which didn't cost all that much.  I'm going on 8 years since
>>> installing my first unit, still going strong.  I think the warranty would
>>> have been 7 years.
>>> 
>>> Jaime
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 6:20 PM Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes <
>>>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I had a heating contractor who specializes in mini splits come today. He
>>>> feels that I need 2 20K btu units for the ground floor and one 15K btu unit
>>>> for the open loft and with their own compressors so three single zone
>>>> units. He estimated $18,000-20,000. Seems pricey.
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 27, 2022, at 6:11 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes <
>>>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> The downside is a typical concrete garage or shop floor is a lot of
>>>> mass. Unless you use the shop often enough to justify keeping it heated all
>>>> the time, you'll need to start heating it hours (at least) in advance --
>>>> maybe the night before. If you get a sudden unplanned opportunity for some
>>>> shop time, you'll be cold. On the upside, the heat will be very steady and
>>>> comfortable, with no drafts.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Also if you are doing this as new construction, you'll want insulation
>>>> under the concrete pad, so you aren't trying to heat the earth underneath.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022, at 6:02 PM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes wrote:
>>>>>> Heated floor is the way to go, takes less heat to stay warm and you
>>>>>> don’t get condensation of the floor in the spring.
>>>>>>>> On Jan 27, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes <
>>>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If I were building a shop from scratch, I would put hydronic heating
>>>> in the concrete floor, with an OWB (outdoor wood boiler) and natural gas or
>>>> propane boiler backup. Even if the shop is 45 degrees, a warm floor would
>>>> make a world of difference.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Rick
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
>>>>>>> Sent: January 27, 2022 2:22 PM
>>>>>>> To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
>>>>>>> Reply-to: mercedes@okiebenz.com
>>>>>>> Cc: mi...@mitchellhaley.com
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Electric space heaters are 100% efficient at -40F.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ___
>>>>>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>>>>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/me

Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

MY 12K BTU Pioneer system has been running fine for five years.  I don't know 
if my old unit is the same as to current models but mine appears identical 
(externally) to a larger Mitsubishi unit at out church.

My Pioneer system did not have pre-charged lines so I hired that HVAC pro to 
flare the lines  and pull a vacuum.  My only failure to date was a refrigerant 
leak in a (totally unnecessary) Schrader valve that my "professional HVAC 
technician" insisted on installing in the liquid line.  

My mini split did ice over a few times during freezing rain (as did both 
conventional house units).  I used a heat gun or portable forced air propane 
heater (sometimes called a torpedo or salamander) to thaw things out.  The main 
point is to insure you have access behind the outdoor unit to clean and thaw if 
needed (mine is too close to the building for good rear access).

In these systems, both expansion valves (for heating and cooling) are in the 
outside unit so a single service valve is all you need (liquid and vapor lines 
are the same pressure).  That also means both refrigerant lines need to be 
insulated and preferably short.

Cover the outside  refrigerant lines to prevent sun damage to the insulation.  
There are commercial plastic cover sets for this purpose but many things work.  
Use flex conduit or UF cable for the exposed outdoor power connection.  Your 
code probably requires a disconnect very close to the outdoor unit.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 7:47 PM


So I’m paying 8-10K for labor and warranty. Wow!
I’m looking into mrcool units. A complete 18K unit set up for DIY with a 
warranty runs $2K. I wonder how good these are.



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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

Where are they made? If they are Korean or Japanese they might be decent. If 
they are Chinese, I would avoid. Fujitsu, Mitsubishi, and Samsung are some 
names I've seen in mini-split installations at work.


On Thu, Jan 27, 2022, at 7:47 PM, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes wrote:
> So I’m paying 8-10K for labor and warranty. Wow!
> I’m looking into mrcool units. A complete 18K unit set up for DIY with 
> a warranty runs $2K. I wonder how good these are.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jan 27, 2022, at 7:33 PM, Jaime Kopchinski via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> The units with parts needed (linesets, etc) would run about $9-10k
>> wholesale for all three units (I got some Fujitsu quotes recently).  The
>> rest of the money is labor and the warranty.  This is why I installed my
>> own... I figured the warranty wasn't worth it.  I bought all the pro tools
>> needed, which didn't cost all that much.  I'm going on 8 years since
>> installing my first unit, still going strong.  I think the warranty would
>> have been 7 years.
>> 
>> Jaime
>> 
>> 
>>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 6:20 PM Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes <
>>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I had a heating contractor who specializes in mini splits come today. He
>>> feels that I need 2 20K btu units for the ground floor and one 15K btu unit
>>> for the open loft and with their own compressors so three single zone
>>> units. He estimated $18,000-20,000. Seems pricey.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 27, 2022, at 6:11 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes <
>>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The downside is a typical concrete garage or shop floor is a lot of
>>> mass. Unless you use the shop often enough to justify keeping it heated all
>>> the time, you'll need to start heating it hours (at least) in advance --
>>> maybe the night before. If you get a sudden unplanned opportunity for some
>>> shop time, you'll be cold. On the upside, the heat will be very steady and
>>> comfortable, with no drafts.
>>>> 
>>>> Also if you are doing this as new construction, you'll want insulation
>>> under the concrete pad, so you aren't trying to heat the earth underneath.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022, at 6:02 PM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes wrote:
>>>>> Heated floor is the way to go, takes less heat to stay warm and you
>>>>> don’t get condensation of the floor in the spring.
>>>>>>> On Jan 27, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes <
>>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If I were building a shop from scratch, I would put hydronic heating
>>> in the concrete floor, with an OWB (outdoor wood boiler) and natural gas or
>>> propane boiler backup. Even if the shop is 45 degrees, a warm floor would
>>> make a world of difference.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Rick
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
>>>>>> Sent: January 27, 2022 2:22 PM
>>>>>> To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
>>>>>> Reply-to: mercedes@okiebenz.com
>>>>>> Cc: mi...@mitchellhaley.com
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Electric space heaters are 100% efficient at -40F.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ___
>>>>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>>>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ___
>>>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>>>> 
>>>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>>> 
>>>> ___
>>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>>> 
>>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>>> 
>>>>

Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes]

So I’m paying 8-10K for labor and warranty. Wow!
I’m looking into mrcool units. A complete 18K unit set up for DIY with a 
warranty runs $2K. I wonder how good these are.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 27, 2022, at 7:33 PM, Jaime Kopchinski via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> The units with parts needed (linesets, etc) would run about $9-10k
> wholesale for all three units (I got some Fujitsu quotes recently).  The
> rest of the money is labor and the warranty.  This is why I installed my
> own... I figured the warranty wasn't worth it.  I bought all the pro tools
> needed, which didn't cost all that much.  I'm going on 8 years since
> installing my first unit, still going strong.  I think the warranty would
> have been 7 years.
> 
> Jaime
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 6:20 PM Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I had a heating contractor who specializes in mini splits come today. He
>> feels that I need 2 20K btu units for the ground floor and one 15K btu unit
>> for the open loft and with their own compressors so three single zone
>> units. He estimated $18,000-20,000. Seems pricey.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jan 27, 2022, at 6:11 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> The downside is a typical concrete garage or shop floor is a lot of
>> mass. Unless you use the shop often enough to justify keeping it heated all
>> the time, you'll need to start heating it hours (at least) in advance --
>> maybe the night before. If you get a sudden unplanned opportunity for some
>> shop time, you'll be cold. On the upside, the heat will be very steady and
>> comfortable, with no drafts.
>>> 
>>> Also if you are doing this as new construction, you'll want insulation
>> under the concrete pad, so you aren't trying to heat the earth underneath.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022, at 6:02 PM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes wrote:
>>>> Heated floor is the way to go, takes less heat to stay warm and you
>>>> don’t get condensation of the floor in the spring.
>>>>>> On Jan 27, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> If I were building a shop from scratch, I would put hydronic heating
>> in the concrete floor, with an OWB (outdoor wood boiler) and natural gas or
>> propane boiler backup. Even if the shop is 45 degrees, a warm floor would
>> make a world of difference.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Rick
>>>>> 
>>>>> From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
>>>>> Sent: January 27, 2022 2:22 PM
>>>>> To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
>>>>> Reply-to: mercedes@okiebenz.com
>>>>> Cc: mi...@mitchellhaley.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options
>>>>> 
>>>>> Electric space heaters are 100% efficient at -40F.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ___
>>>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>>>> 
>>>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ___
>>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>>> 
>>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>>> 
>>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
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>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> 
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>> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Jaime Kopchinski
> http://www.jaimekop.com/
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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Jaime Kopchinski via Mercedes]

The units with parts needed (linesets, etc) would run about $9-10k
wholesale for all three units (I got some Fujitsu quotes recently).  The
rest of the money is labor and the warranty.  This is why I installed my
own... I figured the warranty wasn't worth it.  I bought all the pro tools
needed, which didn't cost all that much.  I'm going on 8 years since
installing my first unit, still going strong.  I think the warranty would
have been 7 years.

Jaime


On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 6:20 PM Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I had a heating contractor who specializes in mini splits come today. He
> feels that I need 2 20K btu units for the ground floor and one 15K btu unit
> for the open loft and with their own compressors so three single zone
> units. He estimated $18,000-20,000. Seems pricey.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 27, 2022, at 6:11 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > The downside is a typical concrete garage or shop floor is a lot of
> mass. Unless you use the shop often enough to justify keeping it heated all
> the time, you'll need to start heating it hours (at least) in advance --
> maybe the night before. If you get a sudden unplanned opportunity for some
> shop time, you'll be cold. On the upside, the heat will be very steady and
> comfortable, with no drafts.
> >
> > Also if you are doing this as new construction, you'll want insulation
> under the concrete pad, so you aren't trying to heat the earth underneath.
> >
> >
> >> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022, at 6:02 PM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes wrote:
> >> Heated floor is the way to go, takes less heat to stay warm and you
> >> don’t get condensation of the floor in the spring.
> >>>> On Jan 27, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> If I were building a shop from scratch, I would put hydronic heating
> in the concrete floor, with an OWB (outdoor wood boiler) and natural gas or
> propane boiler backup. Even if the shop is 45 degrees, a warm floor would
> make a world of difference.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Rick
> >>>
> >>> From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> >>> Sent: January 27, 2022 2:22 PM
> >>> To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> >>> Reply-to: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> >>> Cc: mi...@mitchellhaley.com
> >>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options
> >>>
> >>> Electric space heaters are 100% efficient at -40F.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >>>
> >>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >>>
> >>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >>
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> >>
> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
> > ___
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> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
>
>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>

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http://www.jaimekop.com/
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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

I know a fellow who heated a 2 car garage here in the GWN using in floor 
tubing and a 40 gallon electric hot water tank. It worked well.

He ran a sign making company out of the garage.

Randy


On 27/01/2022 5:02 PM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes wrote:

Heated floor is the way to go, takes less heat to stay warm and you don’t get 
condensation of the floor in the spring.

On Jan 27, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes  
wrote:

If I were building a shop from scratch, I would put hydronic heating in the 
concrete floor, with an OWB (outdoor wood boiler) and natural gas or propane 
boiler backup. Even if the shop is 45 degrees, a warm floor would make a world 
of difference.


Rick




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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes]

I had a heating contractor who specializes in mini splits come today. He feels 
that I need 2 20K btu units for the ground floor and one 15K btu unit for the 
open loft and with their own compressors so three single zone units. He 
estimated $18,000-20,000. Seems pricey.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 27, 2022, at 6:11 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> The downside is a typical concrete garage or shop floor is a lot of mass. 
> Unless you use the shop often enough to justify keeping it heated all the 
> time, you'll need to start heating it hours (at least) in advance -- maybe 
> the night before. If you get a sudden unplanned opportunity for some shop 
> time, you'll be cold. On the upside, the heat will be very steady and 
> comfortable, with no drafts.
> 
> Also if you are doing this as new construction, you'll want insulation under 
> the concrete pad, so you aren't trying to heat the earth underneath.
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022, at 6:02 PM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes wrote:
>> Heated floor is the way to go, takes less heat to stay warm and you 
>> don’t get condensation of the floor in the spring.
>>>> On Jan 27, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes 
>>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> If I were building a shop from scratch, I would put hydronic heating in the 
>>> concrete floor, with an OWB (outdoor wood boiler) and natural gas or 
>>> propane boiler backup. Even if the shop is 45 degrees, a warm floor would 
>>> make a world of difference.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Rick
>>> 
>>> From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
>>> Sent: January 27, 2022 2:22 PM
>>> To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
>>> Reply-to: mercedes@okiebenz.com
>>> Cc: mi...@mitchellhaley.com
>>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options
>>> 
>>> Electric space heaters are 100% efficient at -40F.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 
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> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

The downside is a typical concrete garage or shop floor is a lot of mass. 
Unless you use the shop often enough to justify keeping it heated all the time, 
you'll need to start heating it hours (at least) in advance -- maybe the night 
before. If you get a sudden unplanned opportunity for some shop time, you'll be 
cold. On the upside, the heat will be very steady and comfortable, with no 
drafts.

Also if you are doing this as new construction, you'll want insulation under 
the concrete pad, so you aren't trying to heat the earth underneath.


On Thu, Jan 27, 2022, at 6:02 PM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes wrote:
> Heated floor is the way to go, takes less heat to stay warm and you 
> don’t get condensation of the floor in the spring.
>> On Jan 27, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> If I were building a shop from scratch, I would put hydronic heating in the 
>> concrete floor, with an OWB (outdoor wood boiler) and natural gas or propane 
>> boiler backup. Even if the shop is 45 degrees, a warm floor would make a 
>> world of difference.
>> 
>> 
>> Rick
>> 
>> From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
>> Sent: January 27, 2022 2:22 PM
>> To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
>> Reply-to: mercedes@okiebenz.com
>> Cc: mi...@mitchellhaley.com
>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options
>> 
>> Electric space heaters are 100% efficient at -40F.
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
>
>
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>
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>
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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

Heated floor is the way to go, takes less heat to stay warm and you don’t get 
condensation of the floor in the spring.
> On Jan 27, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> If I were building a shop from scratch, I would put hydronic heating in the 
> concrete floor, with an OWB (outdoor wood boiler) and natural gas or propane 
> boiler backup. Even if the shop is 45 degrees, a warm floor would make a 
> world of difference.
> 
> 
> Rick
> 
> From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Sent: January 27, 2022 2:22 PM
> To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Reply-to: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Cc: mi...@mitchellhaley.com
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options
> 
> Electric space heaters are 100% efficient at -40F.
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> Is there any reason why the pipe could not be laid out on top of an existing 
> concrete floor and more concrete added over it?

None that I know of.  Getting a strong bond to the existing concrete, so that 
you don't need a very thick pour, would be the tricky bit.
But, I am not a construction guy.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

Is there any reason why the pipe could not be laid out on top of an 
existing concrete floor and more concrete added over it?


Randy

On 27/01/2022 2:40 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes wrote:

If I were building a shop from scratch, I would put hydronic heating in the 
concrete floor, with an OWB (outdoor wood boiler) and natural gas or propane 
boiler backup. Even if the shop is 45 degrees, a warm floor would make a world 
of difference.


Rick




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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

That and radiant heat warms the objects around it, too.

-D

> On Jan 27, 2022, at 3:40 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> If I were building a shop from scratch, I would put hydronic heating in the 
> concrete floor, with an OWB (outdoor wood boiler) and natural gas or propane 
> boiler backup. Even if the shop is 45 degrees, a warm floor would make a 
> world of difference.
> 
> 
> Rick
> 
> From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Sent: January 27, 2022 2:22 PM
> To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Reply-to: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Cc: mi...@mitchellhaley.com
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options
> 
> Electric space heaters are 100% efficient at -40F.
> 
> 
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> 
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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

If I were building a shop from scratch, I would put hydronic heating in the 
concrete floor, with an OWB (outdoor wood boiler) and natural gas or propane 
boiler backup. Even if the shop is 45 degrees, a warm floor would make a world 
of difference.


Rick

From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: January 27, 2022 2:22 PM
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Reply-to: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: mi...@mitchellhaley.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

Electric space heaters are 100% efficient at -40F.


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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[mitch--- via Mercedes]

Electric space heaters are 100% efficient at -40F.

On 2022-01-26 10:35, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote:

I would add that if you’re looking at single unit heat pumps, much
like would be used in a house, it’s going to be pricey and may not
work efficiently down to the lowest temperatures. The mini-splits are
far more efficient at low temperatures, like one I just had put in the
casita (360 SF) at the Flagstaff house - it is over 80% efficient at
-4F.


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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> Does it dehumidify even while in heating mode?

Almost certainly not, other than the natural decrease in RH as
the temperature goes up with a fixed amount of moisture in the
air.  To actually _remove_ moisture you have to _cool_ the air
to get below the dew point, and then drain it away, and then
heat the air back up to the desired temperature.  That would
be 2x the amount of coilage in the head unit.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes]

Does it dehumidify even while in heating mode?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 26, 2022, at 10:52 AM, Jaime Kopchinski via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have a minisplit in my garage and find it to be great solution.  The
> initial goal was heat, but the AC is a real luxury.  The dehumidifying
> feature is also really useful in early spring
> 
> Jaime
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 10:43 AM Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Yes but is a heat pump or mini split suitable for my specific garage
>> scenario?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jan 26, 2022, at 10:39 AM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I am pretty much a heat pump believer. Even during the coldest months
>> with some days it running almost non stop for a day at a time our highest
>> electric bill is maybe $250. With natural gas the gas bill would probably
>> be close to that plus another $100-$150 electric bill.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Jan 26, 2022, at 8:56 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
 
 The nice thing about heat pumps is you essentially get AC "for free".
>> Where you are they should be good for all but the coldest nights. Since
>> you're talking electric heat in the bathrooms anyway (I'd say drain one of
>> them for the winter) then let the place go cold on those really cold nights
>> to save $$.
 
 Alternately get the wells sunk to do a geothermal heat pump and use
>> them for both the house and garage but that's a big  upfront cost...
 
 -Curt
 
 
 On Wednesday, January 26, 2022, 09:52:34 AM EST, Dimitri Seretakis via
>> Mercedes  wrote:
 
 
 I need to get heat in my garage. It is roughly 24x54 and located in
>> midcoast Maine. The ceiling is well insulated, most walls are 2x4 but some
>> are 2x6 and they are/will be insulated. Height to peak of vaulted ceiling
>> is 26 feet for most of it with exception of a small area that has lower
>> ceiling. There will be two bathrooms. One on ground floor and one in
>> partial loft. Loft will be open to the rest of the garage so essentially
>> one big open space minus bathrooms. Thinking of small electric baseboard
>> units in bathrooms.
 
 I’m getting differing opinions, some people say Modine with either
>> propane or natural gas and others say heat pumps. I’m still waiting on a
>> couple of heat pump contractors to give me their opinions. Any thoughts?
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022, at 11:03 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes wrote:

> I think that fuel-based heat is driven towards parity with electricity by 
> market
> factors (think greedy investor types), and no longer is the cheapest way to 
> heat

That is true, the costs are closer than they used to be. Especially with 
natural gas now more commonly used to generate electricity, where that used to 
be almost exclusively coal (at least around here). Demand for gas is higher, so 
it costs more.

Allan


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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> I need to get heat in my garage. It is roughly 24x54 and located in midcoast 
> Maine.

The 'best' choice involves many factors.  There is the capital cost up front, 
the expected
operating cost per hour, and the amount of time the capital investment will 
last.  (I.e. how
long until you have to replace it all and start over.)  Plus, maintenance needs.

Heat pumps give you a 3x (?) multiplier per BTU put in via electricity.  But, 
they're more
money and don't last forever.  Electric heat is cheap up front and lasts 
basically forever,
but has probably the highest operating costs.  OTOH if infrequently used it 
could possibly be
the best value.  I think that fuel-based heat is driven towards parity with 
electricity by market
factors (think greedy investor types), and no longer is the cheapest way to 
heat.

I am told that radiant floor heat gives the most comfort per BTU, so is that a 
possibility?
(I laid the pipes in my garage when it was built, as that was cheap to DIY, but 
have taken
it no further than that.)  DO you need AC and/or dehumidification in any 
significant amount?

You need to do the math, for YOU.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

The mini-split I had put in the casita, which is on the back of the garage, is 
24,000 BTU, much larger than required (16-18,000 was originally specified.) I 
was hoping it was one that could run multiple head units, as I would have put 
one in the garage, but it was a single system only. The contractor that did the 
work had the 24,000 unit on the shelf from a job that got cancelled so they 
sold it to me for the same price as they owed me a favor for getting them some 
referrals. It was $3400 installed complete, which I thought was a pretty good 
deal. I know I could have done it myself, but I didn’t have the time and I 
wouldn’t have gotten the 10 year warranty, either.

I saw this 75,000 BTU Reznor heater on FB marketplace a couple weeks ago. Since 
I wasn’t out there at the time I let it go, but I noticed it was still for sale 
the other day, so I reached out to the seller and told them if they would take 
$700 I would pick it up on Saturday when I return to Flagstaff. I have to pick 
it up, but once that’s done I’ll start getting serious about doing the ceiling 
and getting the insulation guys over to give me a quote. I’ll hang the heater 
and do the electrical, I probably need to find a plumber to do the gas line.

-D

> On Jan 26, 2022, at 10:51 AM, Jaime Kopchinski via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have a minisplit in my garage and find it to be great solution.  The
> initial goal was heat, but the AC is a real luxury.  The dehumidifying
> feature is also really useful in early spring
> 
> Jaime
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 10:43 AM Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
>> Yes but is a heat pump or mini split suitable for my specific garage
>> scenario?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jan 26, 2022, at 10:39 AM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I am pretty much a heat pump believer. Even during the coldest months
>> with some days it running almost non stop for a day at a time our highest
>> electric bill is maybe $250. With natural gas the gas bill would probably
>> be close to that plus another $100-$150 electric bill.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Jan 26, 2022, at 8:56 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
 
 The nice thing about heat pumps is you essentially get AC "for free".
>> Where you are they should be good for all but the coldest nights. Since
>> you're talking electric heat in the bathrooms anyway (I'd say drain one of
>> them for the winter) then let the place go cold on those really cold nights
>> to save $$.
 
 Alternately get the wells sunk to do a geothermal heat pump and use
>> them for both the house and garage but that's a big  upfront cost...
 
 -Curt
 
 
 On Wednesday, January 26, 2022, 09:52:34 AM EST, Dimitri Seretakis via
>> Mercedes  wrote:
 
 
 I need to get heat in my garage. It is roughly 24x54 and located in
>> midcoast Maine. The ceiling is well insulated, most walls are 2x4 but some
>> are 2x6 and they are/will be insulated. Height to peak of vaulted ceiling
>> is 26 feet for most of it with exception of a small area that has lower
>> ceiling. There will be two bathrooms. One on ground floor and one in
>> partial loft. Loft will be open to the rest of the garage so essentially
>> one big open space minus bathrooms. Thinking of small electric baseboard
>> units in bathrooms.
 
 I’m getting differing opinions, some people say Modine with either
>> propane or natural gas and others say heat pumps. I’m still waiting on a
>> couple of heat pump contractors to give me their opinions. Any thoughts?
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
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>>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

Last week I noticed one of my m-s units was cycling a lot, it was like 
34F and damp/wet with rain and crap.  I looked at the condenser and 
about half the fins were frozen up and the cycling was to thaw off the 
frost.  I had not noticed that before, I think it was due to the 
dampness.  This unit has 2 head units on it and it was having trouble 
keeping the rooms warm which was annoying.  i should probably get it 
checked to make sure it is topped up with refrigerant and running 
properly.  I have another unit with 4 head units that serves my new 
addition (timber frame with SIPs and double pane glass, well-insulated), 
one is in the kitchen (12k BTU) which has about a 20ft open ceiling to a 
loft above.  I put another unit (12k) up in the loft but have not needed 
to run it as the one below in the kitchen space actually warms that 
whole space, surprisingly.  I have a fan hanging from the roof peak that 
I run to keep the air circulated and it is warm down below.  It was not 
cycling.  That unit serves 2 heads (9k each) in the MBR and adjacent 
bath, I actually only run the unit in the bath and the bedroom stays 
mostly warm (cool for sleeping is not bad).


I put another set (one condenser, 2 head units) in for 2 other bedrooms 
(one for each above/below) and usually just keep those rooms closed off 
and don't run them, but when it was down around freezing I ran the 
downstairs for a coupla days to help out the system that was having 
trouble.  House was OK with those running.


I have 3 separate units in the house now to replace an ancient forced 
air central heat pump/AC unit.  I like that I can pick and choose which 
to run and they are a lot more efficient than the single central unit 
that served (and not well) the old part of the house with ducts and 
baseboard vents.


--FT

On 1/26/22 10:35 AM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote:

I would add that if you’re looking at single unit heat pumps, much like would 
be used in a house, it’s going to be pricey and may not work efficiently down 
to the lowest temperatures. The mini-splits are far more efficient at low 
temperatures, like one I just had put in the casita (360 SF) at the Flagstaff 
house - it is over 80% efficient at -4F. The large household units aren’t 
nearly as efficient, or so I found, when it comes to low temps. And the ones 
that are can be quite pricey.

I wonder if it would make sense to do a mini-split with multiple (indoor) 
units? Floyd has some experience here, maybe he’ll chime in.

-D


On Jan 26, 2022, at 10:16 AM, Allan Streib via Mercedes  
wrote:

Around here if utility natural gas is available that is the cheapest way to go. 
Not sure about relative rates where you are.

If you need to have propane trucked in, that is more expensive, but still 
cheaper than electric baseboard / resistance heat, here.

I've never had heat pump or geothermal heat so can't really comment on those 
options.




On Wed, Jan 26, 2022, at 9:54 AM, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes wrote:

Forgot to mention 5 garage doors all insulated. All windows double pane.

Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 26, 2022, at 9:52 AM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:

I need to get heat in my garage. It is roughly 24x54 and located in midcoast 
Maine. The ceiling is well insulated, most walls are 2x4 but some are 2x6 and 
they are/will be insulated. Height to peak of vaulted ceiling is 26 feet for 
most of it with exception of a small area that has lower ceiling. There will be 
two bathrooms. One on ground floor and one in partial loft. Loft will be open 
to the rest of the garage so essentially one big open space minus bathrooms. 
Thinking of small electric baseboard units in bathrooms.

I’m getting differing opinions, some people say Modine with either propane or 
natural gas and others say heat pumps. I’m still waiting on a couple of heat 
pump contractors to give me their opinions. Any thoughts?

Sent from my iPhone


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--
--FT
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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

I'm planning on building a shop in the barn at the new northern estate. I'm 
going to close off one bay in the barn, insulate that bay and add a heat pump. 
It won't do the job when it's REALLY cold out but those are the kind of days 
I'll stay inside by the fire anyway...

-Curt

On Wednesday, January 26, 2022, 10:52:07 AM EST, Jaime Kopchinski via Mercedes 
 wrote: 





I have a minisplit in my garage and find it to be great solution.  The
initial goal was heat, but the AC is a real luxury.  The dehumidifying
feature is also really useful in early spring

Jaime


On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 10:43 AM Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Yes but is a heat pump or mini split suitable for my specific garage
> scenario?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 26, 2022, at 10:39 AM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > I am pretty much a heat pump believer. Even during the coldest months
> with some days it running almost non stop for a day at a time our highest
> electric bill is maybe $250. With natural gas the gas bill would probably
> be close to that plus another $100-$150 electric bill.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Jan 26, 2022, at 8:56 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> The nice thing about heat pumps is you essentially get AC "for free".
> Where you are they should be good for all but the coldest nights. Since
> you're talking electric heat in the bathrooms anyway (I'd say drain one of
> them for the winter) then let the place go cold on those really cold nights
> to save $$.
> >>
> >> Alternately get the wells sunk to do a geothermal heat pump and use
> them for both the house and garage but that's a big  upfront cost...
> >>
> >> -Curt
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wednesday, January 26, 2022, 09:52:34 AM EST, Dimitri Seretakis via
> Mercedes  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I need to get heat in my garage. It is roughly 24x54 and located in
> midcoast Maine. The ceiling is well insulated, most walls are 2x4 but some
> are 2x6 and they are/will be insulated. Height to peak of vaulted ceiling
> is 26 feet for most of it with exception of a small area that has lower
> ceiling. There will be two bathrooms. One on ground floor and one in
> partial loft. Loft will be open to the rest of the garage so essentially
> one big open space minus bathrooms. Thinking of small electric baseboard
> units in bathrooms.
> >>
> >> I’m getting differing opinions, some people say Modine with either
> propane or natural gas and others say heat pumps. I’m still waiting on a
> couple of heat pump contractors to give me their opinions. Any thoughts?
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> ___
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http://www.jaimekop.com/

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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Jaime Kopchinski via Mercedes]

I have a minisplit in my garage and find it to be great solution.  The
initial goal was heat, but the AC is a real luxury.  The dehumidifying
feature is also really useful in early spring

Jaime


On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 10:43 AM Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Yes but is a heat pump or mini split suitable for my specific garage
> scenario?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 26, 2022, at 10:39 AM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > I am pretty much a heat pump believer. Even during the coldest months
> with some days it running almost non stop for a day at a time our highest
> electric bill is maybe $250. With natural gas the gas bill would probably
> be close to that plus another $100-$150 electric bill.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Jan 26, 2022, at 8:56 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> The nice thing about heat pumps is you essentially get AC "for free".
> Where you are they should be good for all but the coldest nights. Since
> you're talking electric heat in the bathrooms anyway (I'd say drain one of
> them for the winter) then let the place go cold on those really cold nights
> to save $$.
> >>
> >> Alternately get the wells sunk to do a geothermal heat pump and use
> them for both the house and garage but that's a big  upfront cost...
> >>
> >> -Curt
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wednesday, January 26, 2022, 09:52:34 AM EST, Dimitri Seretakis via
> Mercedes  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I need to get heat in my garage. It is roughly 24x54 and located in
> midcoast Maine. The ceiling is well insulated, most walls are 2x4 but some
> are 2x6 and they are/will be insulated. Height to peak of vaulted ceiling
> is 26 feet for most of it with exception of a small area that has lower
> ceiling. There will be two bathrooms. One on ground floor and one in
> partial loft. Loft will be open to the rest of the garage so essentially
> one big open space minus bathrooms. Thinking of small electric baseboard
> units in bathrooms.
> >>
> >> I’m getting differing opinions, some people say Modine with either
> propane or natural gas and others say heat pumps. I’m still waiting on a
> couple of heat pump contractors to give me their opinions. Any thoughts?
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> ___
> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >>
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> >>
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> >>
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> >
> >
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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

No idea. I have 2 big overhead heaters in my shop but have never got propane 
setup and delivered. Anytime I think about it it’s when the price is high and I 
always say I will wait. Thought about a heat pump that way I could have AC but 
probably would not be worth messing with. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 26, 2022, at 9:43 AM, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Yes but is a heat pump or mini split suitable for my specific garage 
> scenario?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jan 26, 2022, at 10:39 AM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I am pretty much a heat pump believer. Even during the coldest months with 
>> some days it running almost non stop for a day at a time our highest 
>> electric bill is maybe $250. With natural gas the gas bill would probably be 
>> close to that plus another $100-$150 electric bill. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
 On Jan 26, 2022, at 8:56 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
  wrote:
>>> 
>>> The nice thing about heat pumps is you essentially get AC "for free". 
>>> Where you are they should be good for all but the coldest nights. Since 
>>> you're talking electric heat in the bathrooms anyway (I'd say drain one of 
>>> them for the winter) then let the place go cold on those really cold nights 
>>> to save $$.
>>> 
>>> Alternately get the wells sunk to do a geothermal heat pump and use them 
>>> for both the house and garage but that's a big  upfront cost...
>>> 
>>> -Curt
>>> 
>>> 
 On Wednesday, January 26, 2022, 09:52:34 AM EST, Dimitri Seretakis via 
 Mercedes  wrote: 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I need to get heat in my garage. It is roughly 24x54 and located in 
>>> midcoast Maine. The ceiling is well insulated, most walls are 2x4 but some 
>>> are 2x6 and they are/will be insulated. Height to peak of vaulted ceiling 
>>> is 26 feet for most of it with exception of a small area that has lower 
>>> ceiling. There will be two bathrooms. One on ground floor and one in 
>>> partial loft. Loft will be open to the rest of the garage so essentially 
>>> one big open space minus bathrooms. Thinking of small electric baseboard 
>>> units in bathrooms.
>>> 
>>> I’m getting differing opinions, some people say Modine with either propane 
>>> or natural gas and others say heat pumps. I’m still waiting on a couple of 
>>> heat pump contractors to give me their opinions. Any thoughts?
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

I guess I could, but there are trusses, so there’s no real advantage to having 
that space open and heated. If it was open I would seriously consider it, 
especially since I could put a lift into one of the bays…

-D

> On Jan 26, 2022, at 10:44 AM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Foam the roof and leave it open?
> 
> --FT
> 
> On 1/26/22 10:32 AM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote:
>> I bought a Reznor UDX 75,000 BTU natural gas heater for my 24’ x 30’ three 
>> car garage in Flagstaff. A local had a brand new one in the crate they 
>> bought but ended up not needing. I think it was around $1100 retail, I 
>> offered them $700 cash and they took it.
>> 
>> My exterior walls are 2x4 with roll insulation and a vapor barrier. Doors 
>> are composition and don’t seal well (I can see light around them when inside 
>> with the lights off) but I’ll be addressing that. Lastly, I’ve got to 
>> drywall the 14’ ceiling joists (ugh!) so I can put insulation up there, then 
>> it should be pretty tight. I’ve got to get a quote from my insulation guys, 
>> not sure if I’ll just do batts/roll insulation or have them do blow-in. I’m 
>> not sure it’s worth the money to do blow-in since it won’t be heated 
>> year-round.
>> 
>> Winter climate isn’t too much different from where you are other than it 
>> gets into the teens and occasionally single digits at night - but - days can 
>> easily “warm” to the 40s-50s.
>> 
>> -D
>> 
>>> On Jan 26, 2022, at 9:51 AM, Dimitri Seretakis via 
>>> Mercedes  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I need to get heat in my garage. It is roughly 24x54 and located in 
>>> midcoast Maine. The ceiling is well insulated, most walls are 2x4 but some 
>>> are 2x6 and they are/will be insulated. Height to peak of vaulted ceiling 
>>> is 26 feet for most of it with exception of a small area that has lower 
>>> ceiling. There will be two bathrooms. One on ground floor and one in 
>>> partial loft. Loft will be open to the rest of the garage so essentially 
>>> one big open space minus bathrooms. Thinking of small electric baseboard 
>>> units in bathrooms.
>>> 
>>> I’m getting differing opinions, some people say Modine with either propane 
>>> or natural gas and others say heat pumps. I’m still waiting on a couple of 
>>> heat pump contractors to give me their opinions. Any thoughts?
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archiveshttp://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
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>> 
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>> 
> -- 
> --FT
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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

Because I stumbled across the Reznor heater for cheap and I have natural gas to 
the garage. A mini-split would have been about $3k-$4k, depending on size. And 
I don’t care about AC, as a “hot” day in Flagstaff is mid-80s with 20% humidity.

-D

> On Jan 26, 2022, at 10:43 AM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
> 
> Why didn’t you opt for mini splits in your garage?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jan 26, 2022, at 10:33 AM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I bought a Reznor UDX 75,000 BTU natural gas heater for my 24’ x 30’ three 
>> car garage in Flagstaff. A local had a brand new one in the crate they 
>> bought but ended up not needing. I think it was around $1100 retail, I 
>> offered them $700 cash and they took it.
>> 
>> My exterior walls are 2x4 with roll insulation and a vapor barrier. Doors 
>> are composition and don’t seal well (I can see light around them when inside 
>> with the lights off) but I’ll be addressing that. Lastly, I’ve got to 
>> drywall the 14’ ceiling joists (ugh!) so I can put insulation up there, then 
>> it should be pretty tight. I’ve got to get a quote from my insulation guys, 
>> not sure if I’ll just do batts/roll insulation or have them do blow-in. I’m 
>> not sure it’s worth the money to do blow-in since it won’t be heated 
>> year-round.
>> 
>> Winter climate isn’t too much different from where you are other than it 
>> gets into the teens and occasionally single digits at night - but - days can 
>> easily “warm” to the 40s-50s.
>> 
>> -D
>> 
>>> On Jan 26, 2022, at 9:51 AM, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I need to get heat in my garage. It is roughly 24x54 and located in 
>>> midcoast Maine. The ceiling is well insulated, most walls are 2x4 but some 
>>> are 2x6 and they are/will be insulated. Height to peak of vaulted ceiling 
>>> is 26 feet for most of it with exception of a small area that has lower 
>>> ceiling. There will be two bathrooms. One on ground floor and one in 
>>> partial loft. Loft will be open to the rest of the garage so essentially 
>>> one big open space minus bathrooms. Thinking of small electric baseboard 
>>> units in bathrooms.
>>> 
>>> I’m getting differing opinions, some people say Modine with either propane 
>>> or natural gas and others say heat pumps. I’m still waiting on a couple of 
>>> heat pump contractors to give me their opinions. Any thoughts?
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>> 
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>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 

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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

Foam the roof and leave it open?

--FT

On 1/26/22 10:32 AM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote:

I bought a Reznor UDX 75,000 BTU natural gas heater for my 24’ x 30’ three car 
garage in Flagstaff. A local had a brand new one in the crate they bought but 
ended up not needing. I think it was around $1100 retail, I offered them $700 
cash and they took it.

My exterior walls are 2x4 with roll insulation and a vapor barrier. Doors are 
composition and don’t seal well (I can see light around them when inside with 
the lights off) but I’ll be addressing that. Lastly, I’ve got to drywall the 
14’ ceiling joists (ugh!) so I can put insulation up there, then it should be 
pretty tight. I’ve got to get a quote from my insulation guys, not sure if I’ll 
just do batts/roll insulation or have them do blow-in. I’m not sure it’s worth 
the money to do blow-in since it won’t be heated year-round.

Winter climate isn’t too much different from where you are other than it gets 
into the teens and occasionally single digits at night - but - days can easily 
“warm” to the 40s-50s.

-D


On Jan 26, 2022, at 9:51 AM, Dimitri Seretakis via 
Mercedes  wrote:

I need to get heat in my garage. It is roughly 24x54 and located in midcoast 
Maine. The ceiling is well insulated, most walls are 2x4 but some are 2x6 and 
they are/will be insulated. Height to peak of vaulted ceiling is 26 feet for 
most of it with exception of a small area that has lower ceiling. There will be 
two bathrooms. One on ground floor and one in partial loft. Loft will be open 
to the rest of the garage so essentially one big open space minus bathrooms. 
Thinking of small electric baseboard units in bathrooms.

I’m getting differing opinions, some people say Modine with either propane or 
natural gas and others say heat pumps. I’m still waiting on a couple of heat 
pump contractors to give me their opinions. Any thoughts?

Sent from my iPhone

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--
--FT
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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes]

Why didn’t you opt for mini splits in your garage?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 26, 2022, at 10:33 AM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I bought a Reznor UDX 75,000 BTU natural gas heater for my 24’ x 30’ three 
> car garage in Flagstaff. A local had a brand new one in the crate they bought 
> but ended up not needing. I think it was around $1100 retail, I offered them 
> $700 cash and they took it.
> 
> My exterior walls are 2x4 with roll insulation and a vapor barrier. Doors are 
> composition and don’t seal well (I can see light around them when inside with 
> the lights off) but I’ll be addressing that. Lastly, I’ve got to drywall the 
> 14’ ceiling joists (ugh!) so I can put insulation up there, then it should be 
> pretty tight. I’ve got to get a quote from my insulation guys, not sure if 
> I’ll just do batts/roll insulation or have them do blow-in. I’m not sure it’s 
> worth the money to do blow-in since it won’t be heated year-round.
> 
> Winter climate isn’t too much different from where you are other than it gets 
> into the teens and occasionally single digits at night - but - days can 
> easily “warm” to the 40s-50s.
> 
> -D
> 
>> On Jan 26, 2022, at 9:51 AM, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I need to get heat in my garage. It is roughly 24x54 and located in midcoast 
>> Maine. The ceiling is well insulated, most walls are 2x4 but some are 2x6 
>> and they are/will be insulated. Height to peak of vaulted ceiling is 26 feet 
>> for most of it with exception of a small area that has lower ceiling. There 
>> will be two bathrooms. One on ground floor and one in partial loft. Loft 
>> will be open to the rest of the garage so essentially one big open space 
>> minus bathrooms. Thinking of small electric baseboard units in bathrooms.
>> 
>> I’m getting differing opinions, some people say Modine with either propane 
>> or natural gas and others say heat pumps. I’m still waiting on a couple of 
>> heat pump contractors to give me their opinions. Any thoughts?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes]

Yes but is a heat pump or mini split suitable for my specific garage scenario?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 26, 2022, at 10:39 AM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I am pretty much a heat pump believer. Even during the coldest months with 
> some days it running almost non stop for a day at a time our highest electric 
> bill is maybe $250. With natural gas the gas bill would probably be close to 
> that plus another $100-$150 electric bill. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jan 26, 2022, at 8:56 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> The nice thing about heat pumps is you essentially get AC "for free". Where 
>> you are they should be good for all but the coldest nights. Since you're 
>> talking electric heat in the bathrooms anyway (I'd say drain one of them for 
>> the winter) then let the place go cold on those really cold nights to save 
>> $$.
>> 
>> Alternately get the wells sunk to do a geothermal heat pump and use them for 
>> both the house and garage but that's a big  upfront cost...
>> 
>> -Curt
>> 
>> 
>> On Wednesday, January 26, 2022, 09:52:34 AM EST, Dimitri Seretakis via 
>> Mercedes  wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> I need to get heat in my garage. It is roughly 24x54 and located in midcoast 
>> Maine. The ceiling is well insulated, most walls are 2x4 but some are 2x6 
>> and they are/will be insulated. Height to peak of vaulted ceiling is 26 feet 
>> for most of it with exception of a small area that has lower ceiling. There 
>> will be two bathrooms. One on ground floor and one in partial loft. Loft 
>> will be open to the rest of the garage so essentially one big open space 
>> minus bathrooms. Thinking of small electric baseboard units in bathrooms.
>> 
>> I’m getting differing opinions, some people say Modine with either propane 
>> or natural gas and others say heat pumps. I’m still waiting on a couple of 
>> heat pump contractors to give me their opinions. Any thoughts?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
>> 
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>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>> 
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

I am pretty much a heat pump believer. Even during the coldest months with some 
days it running almost non stop for a day at a time our highest electric bill 
is maybe $250. With natural gas the gas bill would probably be close to that 
plus another $100-$150 electric bill. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 26, 2022, at 8:56 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> The nice thing about heat pumps is you essentially get AC "for free". Where 
> you are they should be good for all but the coldest nights. Since you're 
> talking electric heat in the bathrooms anyway (I'd say drain one of them for 
> the winter) then let the place go cold on those really cold nights to save $$.
> 
> Alternately get the wells sunk to do a geothermal heat pump and use them for 
> both the house and garage but that's a big  upfront cost...
> 
> -Curt
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, January 26, 2022, 09:52:34 AM EST, Dimitri Seretakis via 
> Mercedes  wrote: 
> 
> 
> I need to get heat in my garage. It is roughly 24x54 and located in midcoast 
> Maine. The ceiling is well insulated, most walls are 2x4 but some are 2x6 and 
> they are/will be insulated. Height to peak of vaulted ceiling is 26 feet for 
> most of it with exception of a small area that has lower ceiling. There will 
> be two bathrooms. One on ground floor and one in partial loft. Loft will be 
> open to the rest of the garage so essentially one big open space minus 
> bathrooms. Thinking of small electric baseboard units in bathrooms.
> 
> I’m getting differing opinions, some people say Modine with either propane or 
> natural gas and others say heat pumps. I’m still waiting on a couple of heat 
> pump contractors to give me their opinions. Any thoughts?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

I would add that if you’re looking at single unit heat pumps, much like would 
be used in a house, it’s going to be pricey and may not work efficiently down 
to the lowest temperatures. The mini-splits are far more efficient at low 
temperatures, like one I just had put in the casita (360 SF) at the Flagstaff 
house - it is over 80% efficient at -4F. The large household units aren’t 
nearly as efficient, or so I found, when it comes to low temps. And the ones 
that are can be quite pricey.

I wonder if it would make sense to do a mini-split with multiple (indoor) 
units? Floyd has some experience here, maybe he’ll chime in.

-D

> On Jan 26, 2022, at 10:16 AM, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Around here if utility natural gas is available that is the cheapest way to 
> go. Not sure about relative rates where you are.
> 
> If you need to have propane trucked in, that is more expensive, but still 
> cheaper than electric baseboard / resistance heat, here.
> 
> I've never had heat pump or geothermal heat so can't really comment on those 
> options.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022, at 9:54 AM, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes wrote:
>> Forgot to mention 5 garage doors all insulated. All windows double pane.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jan 26, 2022, at 9:52 AM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I need to get heat in my garage. It is roughly 24x54 and located in 
>>> midcoast Maine. The ceiling is well insulated, most walls are 2x4 but some 
>>> are 2x6 and they are/will be insulated. Height to peak of vaulted ceiling 
>>> is 26 feet for most of it with exception of a small area that has lower 
>>> ceiling. There will be two bathrooms. One on ground floor and one in 
>>> partial loft. Loft will be open to the rest of the garage so essentially 
>>> one big open space minus bathrooms. Thinking of small electric baseboard 
>>> units in bathrooms.
>>> 
>>> I’m getting differing opinions, some people say Modine with either propane 
>>> or natural gas and others say heat pumps. I’m still waiting on a couple of 
>>> heat pump contractors to give me their opinions. Any thoughts?
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

I bought a Reznor UDX 75,000 BTU natural gas heater for my 24’ x 30’ three car 
garage in Flagstaff. A local had a brand new one in the crate they bought but 
ended up not needing. I think it was around $1100 retail, I offered them $700 
cash and they took it.

My exterior walls are 2x4 with roll insulation and a vapor barrier. Doors are 
composition and don’t seal well (I can see light around them when inside with 
the lights off) but I’ll be addressing that. Lastly, I’ve got to drywall the 
14’ ceiling joists (ugh!) so I can put insulation up there, then it should be 
pretty tight. I’ve got to get a quote from my insulation guys, not sure if I’ll 
just do batts/roll insulation or have them do blow-in. I’m not sure it’s worth 
the money to do blow-in since it won’t be heated year-round.

Winter climate isn’t too much different from where you are other than it gets 
into the teens and occasionally single digits at night - but - days can easily 
“warm” to the 40s-50s.

-D

> On Jan 26, 2022, at 9:51 AM, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I need to get heat in my garage. It is roughly 24x54 and located in midcoast 
> Maine. The ceiling is well insulated, most walls are 2x4 but some are 2x6 and 
> they are/will be insulated. Height to peak of vaulted ceiling is 26 feet for 
> most of it with exception of a small area that has lower ceiling. There will 
> be two bathrooms. One on ground floor and one in partial loft. Loft will be 
> open to the rest of the garage so essentially one big open space minus 
> bathrooms. Thinking of small electric baseboard units in bathrooms.
> 
> I’m getting differing opinions, some people say Modine with either propane or 
> natural gas and others say heat pumps. I’m still waiting on a couple of heat 
> pump contractors to give me their opinions. Any thoughts?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 

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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

Around here if utility natural gas is available that is the cheapest way to go. 
Not sure about relative rates where you are.

If you need to have propane trucked in, that is more expensive, but still 
cheaper than electric baseboard / resistance heat, here.

I've never had heat pump or geothermal heat so can't really comment on those 
options.




On Wed, Jan 26, 2022, at 9:54 AM, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes wrote:
> Forgot to mention 5 garage doors all insulated. All windows double pane.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jan 26, 2022, at 9:52 AM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
>> 
>> I need to get heat in my garage. It is roughly 24x54 and located in 
>> midcoast Maine. The ceiling is well insulated, most walls are 2x4 but some 
>> are 2x6 and they are/will be insulated. Height to peak of vaulted ceiling is 
>> 26 feet for most of it with exception of a small area that has lower 
>> ceiling. There will be two bathrooms. One on ground floor and one in partial 
>> loft. Loft will be open to the rest of the garage so essentially one big 
>> open space minus bathrooms. Thinking of small electric baseboard units in 
>> bathrooms.
>> 
>> I’m getting differing opinions, some people say Modine with either propane 
>> or natural gas and others say heat pumps. I’m still waiting on a couple of 
>> heat pump contractors to give me their opinions. Any thoughts?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
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>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

The nice thing about heat pumps is you essentially get AC "for free". Where you 
are they should be good for all but the coldest nights. Since you're talking 
electric heat in the bathrooms anyway (I'd say drain one of them for the 
winter) then let the place go cold on those really cold nights to save $$.

Alternately get the wells sunk to do a geothermal heat pump and use them for 
both the house and garage but that's a big  upfront cost...

-Curt


On Wednesday, January 26, 2022, 09:52:34 AM EST, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
 wrote: 


I need to get heat in my garage. It is roughly 24x54 and located in midcoast 
Maine. The ceiling is well insulated, most walls are 2x4 but some are 2x6 and 
they are/will be insulated. Height to peak of vaulted ceiling is 26 feet for 
most of it with exception of a small area that has lower ceiling. There will be 
two bathrooms. One on ground floor and one in partial loft. Loft will be open 
to the rest of the garage so essentially one big open space minus bathrooms. 
Thinking of small electric baseboard units in bathrooms.

I’m getting differing opinions, some people say Modine with either propane or 
natural gas and others say heat pumps. I’m still waiting on a couple of heat 
pump contractors to give me their opinions. Any thoughts?

Sent from my iPhone

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Re: [MBZ] Garage heating options

[Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes]

Forgot to mention 5 garage doors all insulated. All windows double pane.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 26, 2022, at 9:52 AM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
> 
> I need to get heat in my garage. It is roughly 24x54 and located in midcoast 
> Maine. The ceiling is well insulated, most walls are 2x4 but some are 2x6 and 
> they are/will be insulated. Height to peak of vaulted ceiling is 26 feet for 
> most of it with exception of a small area that has lower ceiling. There will 
> be two bathrooms. One on ground floor and one in partial loft. Loft will be 
> open to the rest of the garage so essentially one big open space minus 
> bathrooms. Thinking of small electric baseboard units in bathrooms.
> 
> I’m getting differing opinions, some people say Modine with either propane or 
> natural gas and others say heat pumps. I’m still waiting on a couple of heat 
> pump contractors to give me their opinions. Any thoughts?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


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[MBZ] Garage heating options

[Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes]

I need to get heat in my garage. It is roughly 24x54 and located in midcoast 
Maine. The ceiling is well insulated, most walls are 2x4 but some are 2x6 and 
they are/will be insulated. Height to peak of vaulted ceiling is 26 feet for 
most of it with exception of a small area that has lower ceiling. There will be 
two bathrooms. One on ground floor and one in partial loft. Loft will be open 
to the rest of the garage so essentially one big open space minus bathrooms. 
Thinking of small electric baseboard units in bathrooms.

I’m getting differing opinions, some people say Modine with either propane or 
natural gas and others say heat pumps. I’m still waiting on a couple of heat 
pump contractors to give me their opinions. Any thoughts?

Sent from my iPhone

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To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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