Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant)
State Troopers are running around in Ford Exploders. They should be running around in TROOPERS! Kevin in Hillsboro, OR 1983 300SD 265K miles, Ursula
Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant)
I wouldn't want to see those training videos. Brian On 12/18/06, kevin kraly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: State Troopers are running around in Ford Exploders. They should be running around in TROOPERS! Kevin in Hillsboro, OR 1983 300SD 265K miles, Ursula ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant)
On 12/16/06, David Brodbeck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zoltan Finks wrote: And that is scary. I want performance cars only in the hands of those trained or capable of handling them. A Crown Vic Police Interceptor is not really a performance car. It's A Crown Vic may not be, haven't driven one, but I owned a 9C1 Caprice that would keep up with a Vette in the straights. Obviously the Vette had superior handling and would lose me in curves, but I'd hold my own going down the line. I miss that car. Ed -- Knowledge is power... Power Corrupts. Study hard... Be Evil.
Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant)
On 12/18/06, Ed Booher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A Crown Vic may not be, haven't driven one, but I owned a 9C1 Caprice that would keep up with a Vette in the straights. Obviously the Vette Better pepper that it was a last model 90's Caprice and C4 90's Standard stock Vette. Not a Grand Sport or C5/Z06 or anything. She did what she was built to do, keep up. Ed -- Knowledge is power... Power Corrupts. Study hard... Be Evil.
Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant)
On 12/17/06, David Brodbeck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zoltan Finks wrote: what boxes were checked on the order form. The only way to be absolutely sure whether a car was ordered as a police package model is to look at the VIN. A true P71 will always have black corners around the license frame under the deck lid. The grille should also be black, but may be body colored. Never chrome. Even undercover and detectives cars (that I've seen) have had the black corners. We have some sneaky precincts in Indiana though, I remember a few years ago the Bloomington force (huge college town, go IU) had an undercover Mustang that had a *For Sale* sign in the window. The Noblesville force has a new Magnum wagon running around and Fishers has a Charger. So Mopar has been brought back to the table in my neck of the woods. The Taurus is a favorite, as well. Some SUV's but those are very rare. The ones that get me are the little FWD Impala's running around pretending to be a real cop car. Those are funny. Ed -- Knowledge is power... Power Corrupts. Study hard... Be Evil.
Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant)
Oh yeah, my wife went to IU. Bloomington looks like a fun place to live for relatively young folks like us. About the only place I'd personally want to live in IN (no offense). Living there would make the trip to go see her family (like we're doing Friday - DREAD) a much shorter trip. I have really wondered why the police don't make it much easier on themselves and harder on us by driving totally unpredictable cars - say something with some big dents and multi-colored. Sounds like, from some of y'alls talk that some agencies are mixing it up a bit. That's scary. I mean, you want to be able to do 80-85, if conditions permit, even if the speed limit is 60-65. That's the only reason I'm like a hawk for cop cars. Brian Ed Wrote: We have some sneaky precincts in Indiana though, I remember a few years ago the Bloomington force (huge college town, go IU) had an undercover Mustang that had a *For Sale* sign in the window
Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant)
And that is scary. I want performance cars only in the hands of those trained or capable of handling them. Brian David wrote: Here they all use surplus cop cars.
Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant)
Zoltan Finks wrote: And that is scary. I want performance cars only in the hands of those trained or capable of handling them. So you want them kept out of the hands of cops?
Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant)
Zoltan Finks wrote: And that is scary. I want performance cars only in the hands of those trained or capable of handling them. A Crown Vic Police Interceptor is not really a performance car. It's got basically the same engine as a V-8 Mustang and considerably more weight. 0-60 times are in the 8 second range. True, the speed limiter is raised to around 130 mph, but there are much faster cars out there. The differences between the civilian Crown Vic and the PI mostly improve handling and allow it to sustain top speed without overheating and idle for long periods without draining the battery.
Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant)
A visual cue to the police package is the dual exhaust. So there are some small hardware differences. Chris Kueny ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 78 Chevy Custom deluxe '85 300TD '02 Subaru Outback - Original Message - From: David Brodbeck [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant) Zoltan Finks wrote: And that is scary. I want performance cars only in the hands of those trained or capable of handling them. A Crown Vic Police Interceptor is not really a performance car. It's got basically the same engine as a V-8 Mustang and considerably more weight. 0-60 times are in the 8 second range. True, the speed limiter is raised to around 130 mph, but there are much faster cars out there. The differences between the civilian Crown Vic and the PI mostly improve handling and allow it to sustain top speed without overheating and idle for long periods without draining the battery. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.21/589 - Release Date: 12/15/2006 5:10 PM
Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant)
Chris Kueny wrote: A visual cue to the police package is the dual exhaust. So there are some small hardware differences. Yeah, that's good for a small horsepower gain. It's also found on Crown Victorias with the trailer towing package. It's one of the few examples of a modern car with a true dual exhaust, not a Y-pipe. The police package also usually has a lower rear end ratio, but it depends on how it was ordered. The basic engine and transmission are the same as the civilian version, but the ECU programming is slightly different, they have a higher-output alternator, and some additional cooling is added. (Oil cooler, power steering fluid cooler.)
Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant)
on 12/16/06 4:56 PM, David Brodbeck at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve MacSween wrote: Now I see your comment on US cars and raise you by the experience of our local taxi fleets. For a long time the (verrry cheap) owners purchased whichever US car was cheapest to get at the time (mainly Luminas and Malibus and Transport/Montana minivans). Here they all use surplus cop cars. Wait until gas prices spike again and tell me if that changes. They use mostly Vics in Ottawa, but around here it's semi-rural and the drivers won't stand for the fuel costs in the Fords. mac
Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant)
Oh yes, I know. My cronies and I, growing up, used to laugh at the performance of the cop cars and a few of us were fortunate enough to be able to honestly brag about outrunning them. (outrunning was the easy part, outcornering a bit more difficult, and of course, outrunning the Motorola or the whirlybird, near impossible). I know cop cars aren't performance cars. I was just making a comment on taxi drivers and how any extra shred of horsepower entrusted them is a scary thing. When my wife and I took a cab from the Seattle airport recently, I noticed that the driver was falling asleep behind the wheel as a cozy sunbeam shone in the window around dusk as he took us down the freeway. With the severe communication barrier, one wonders how they pass the driving test to get even their basic personal drivers licence. David wrote: A Crown Vic Police Interceptor is not really a performance car. It's got basically the same engine as a V-8 Mustang and considerably more weight.
Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant)
That's true. Another visual cue is the rear sway bar. Or maybe all full-sized American cars come with rear sway bars now. It used to be a real rarity. The size and profile of the tires is another indicator. And aluminum wheels are not often found on a cop car, nor are wheel-covers (as opposed to hub caps). I notice now that the wheels on cop cars are a unique design that has an offset that has the wheel center farther toward the outboard. And they don't have any hubcaps, just a center cap if I recall correctly. Often when trying to determine whether the Crown Vic in the distance is a cop, I look for any clue possible, such as the visual profile of the driver, and whether there are any objects resting on the rear deck or dashboard (as in regular people junk). The cues are many. Also, it seems you'll never see a Mercury cop car. Chris wrote: A visual cue to the police package is the dual exhaust. So there are some small hardware differences.
Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant)
Zoltan Finks wrote: That's true. Another visual cue is the rear sway bar. Or maybe all full-sized American cars come with rear sway bars now. It used to be a real rarity. All Crown Vics after a certain year have a Watt's link to locate the rear axle.(Older ones have a Panhard rod.) Dunno if the sway bar is always there, though. The cop cars have a stiffer spring rate and handle pretty well for a big car, although you're always aware of the amount of mass you're pushing around. I notice now that the wheels on cop cars are a unique design that has an offset that has the wheel center farther toward the outboard. And they don't have any hubcaps, just a center cap if I recall correctly. Yeah, the big, black 16 wheels appeared some time after 2000, I think. After the style change to the big Grand Marquis grille the cop cars usually got a blacked-out grille instead of chrome, as well. Of course, the tricky bit is that all of this stuff is optional; it all depends on what boxes were checked on the order form. The only way to be absolutely sure whether a car was ordered as a police package model is to look at the VIN. Often when trying to determine whether the Crown Vic in the distance is a cop, I look for any clue possible, such as the visual profile of the driver, and whether there are any objects resting on the rear deck or dashboard (as in regular people junk). The cues are many. A partition between the front and rear seats is a dead giveaway. So is an exempt or state-government license plate. Also, it seems you'll never see a Mercury cop car. Unless it's unmarked! Then all bets are off. Heck, I've seen people pulled over by cops in pickup trucks.
Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant)
Don't count on picking out cops by car in Alabama. Around here, you are just as likely to be pulled over by a SUV. The police in Tuscaloosa are running around in Mercedes M class some of the State Troopers are running around in Ford Exploders. Then they have a range of other undercover cars. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Brodbeck Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 5:24 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant) Zoltan Finks wrote: That's true. Another visual cue is the rear sway bar. Or maybe all full-sized American cars come with rear sway bars now. It used to be a real rarity. All Crown Vics after a certain year have a Watt's link to locate the rear axle.(Older ones have a Panhard rod.) Dunno if the sway bar is always there, though. The cop cars have a stiffer spring rate and handle pretty well for a big car, although you're always aware of the amount of mass you're pushing around. I notice now that the wheels on cop cars are a unique design that has an offset that has the wheel center farther toward the outboard. And they don't have any hubcaps, just a center cap if I recall correctly. Yeah, the big, black 16 wheels appeared some time after 2000, I think. After the style change to the big Grand Marquis grille the cop cars usually got a blacked-out grille instead of chrome, as well. Of course, the tricky bit is that all of this stuff is optional; it all depends on what boxes were checked on the order form. The only way to be absolutely sure whether a car was ordered as a police package model is to look at the VIN. Often when trying to determine whether the Crown Vic in the distance is a cop, I look for any clue possible, such as the visual profile of the driver, and whether there are any objects resting on the rear deck or dashboard (as in regular people junk). The cues are many. A partition between the front and rear seats is a dead giveaway. So is an exempt or state-government license plate. Also, it seems you'll never see a Mercury cop car. Unless it's unmarked! Then all bets are off. Heck, I've seen people pulled over by cops in pickup trucks. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant)
on 12/15/06 12:33 PM, Donald Snook at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I disagree somewhat. American made CARS are crap. Trucks are a different story. What are you basing this statement on? I agree that American cars needed to improve and they did - dramatically. Maintenance costs have dropped dramatically, fuel mileage has increased, reliability has improved and resale is higher. Beginning in the mid 80's ALL American cars improved. I agree with you that they are still behind the Japanese and the Germans. But you must not have much REAL experience with American cars if you believe they are crap. Everyone's experience is subjective. For example, I was heavily biased against Saturn products for years. My wrench, however, has several customers who have put intergalactic mileages on them with virtually no shop time, other than consumable replacements. I still think that they are about as safe as a pup tent, but Now I see your comment on US cars and raise you by the experience of our local taxi fleets. For a long time the (verrry cheap) owners purchased whichever US car was cheapest to get at the time (mainly Luminas and Malibus and Transport/Montana minivans). Then a couple of years ago they picked up a few Camrys to try out. Now within the last few months you hardly see any of the old GM cars. Camrys rule. The older ones are now in the 400-500 km range with no major failures. Vis the Malibus, some of which were eating transmissions on an almost annual basis. One Transport van had two transmissions in 18 months and was markedly bad in other areas as well. The drivers are also happier as they find the Toyotas less tiring to spend a shift in. More comfortable seats (always a major GM weakness, in my books), better ergonomics, etc. The guy who had the lemon Transport van in fact now drives a Sienna and he's the very best salesman Toyota could ever hope for. I am not baiting you, Don, I recognize that our domestic auto industry is a huge part of the NA economy (actually in proportion, a MUCH bigger part of the Canadian economy than yours). So what I am getting at where GM is concerned is too little, too late. In its heyday GM could have done its own moon mission, it had the resources and the people capable of it. It's been killed by a terrible management culture and a complete lack of vision at the top. I don't want to see us ending up like the Brits, with foreign companies owning our automakers, but that seems to be where we are headed. Mac
Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant)
Hi Mac, I think this is a case where both of you are partially correct. I believe the US Auto Industry *has* improved dramatically over the past 20 years of so. But so have the Japanese and it's a very tought row to hoe when trying to keep up with the Japanese. Even Porsche relied heavily on Japanese Auto Consultants when Porsche made their amazing turnaround in he early 90s. Porsche was almost out of the car making business in the early 90s and basically changed the way they did *everything* from design to manufacturing/assembly to sale service based heavily on Japanese suggestions. Anyway,. Back to the US industry - I believe the absolute *worst* US produced car today is worlds ahead of the Best of the Japanese cars of 10-20 years ago but as all industries do, the Japanese and Germans have increased their products overall quality equaly or more than the US industry. If I were in the market for a new vehicle - I might consider a US car - but when it comes to actually putting *my* money on the line it makes changing from the obvious choice of a Camry or Accord *very* difficult. All the auto execs who think their products are so wonderful should be forced to buy them at retail and maintain them on a basis of their overall income so they can feel the pain of spending $1500 to replace a transmission in their Malibu. That way they could see what its like to spend $1500 when your income (take home) is only, say, $2000/month - like me now that I'm on disability. When a bill requiring 75% of take home pay to get your primary transportation back on the road *has* to be spent paid - perhaps the exec will understand *why* quality is such a big part of the purchase decision. Even if it means paying a premium on the purchase price. Sorry about the rant - now ya'll know why I buy used German cars and work on them myself. ;-) Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/ . - Original Message - From: Steve MacSween [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant) on 12/15/06 12:33 PM, Donald Snook at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I disagree somewhat. American made CARS are crap. Trucks are a different story. What are you basing this statement on? I agree that American cars needed to improve and they did - dramatically. Maintenance costs have dropped dramatically, fuel mileage has increased, reliability has improved and resale is higher. Beginning in the mid 80's ALL American cars improved. I agree with you that they are still behind the Japanese and the Germans. But you must not have much REAL experience with American cars if you believe they are crap. Everyone's experience is subjective. For example, I was heavily biased against Saturn products for years. My wrench, however, has several customers who have put intergalactic mileages on them with virtually no shop time, other than consumable replacements. I still think that they are about as safe as a pup tent, but Now I see your comment on US cars and raise you by the experience of our local taxi fleets. For a long time the (verrry cheap) owners purchased whichever US car was cheapest to get at the time (mainly Luminas and Malibus and Transport/Montana minivans). Then a couple of years ago they picked up a few Camrys to try out. Now within the last few months you hardly see any of the old GM cars. Camrys rule. The older ones are now in the 400-500 km range with no major failures. Vis the Malibus, some of which were eating transmissions on an almost annual basis. One Transport van had two transmissions in 18 months and was markedly bad in other areas as well. The drivers are also happier as they find the Toyotas less tiring to spend a shift in. More comfortable seats (always a major GM weakness, in my books), better ergonomics, etc. The guy who had the lemon Transport van in fact now drives a Sienna and he's the very best salesman Toyota could ever hope for. I am not baiting you, Don, I recognize that our domestic auto industry is a huge part of the NA economy (actually in proportion, a MUCH bigger part of the Canadian economy than yours). So what I am getting at where GM is concerned is too little, too late. In its heyday GM could have done its own moon mission, it had the resources and the people capable of it. It's been killed by a terrible management culture and a complete lack of vision at the top. I don't want to see us ending up like the Brits, with foreign companies owning our automakers, but that seems to be where we are headed. Mac ___ http://www.okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Golden Age? Finding 80s Autos (now heading into a rant)
Steve MacSween wrote: Now I see your comment on US cars and raise you by the experience of our local taxi fleets. For a long time the (verrry cheap) owners purchased whichever US car was cheapest to get at the time (mainly Luminas and Malibus and Transport/Montana minivans). Here they all use surplus cop cars.
