Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
I'll bite. Tell me more. Can't really, without actually designing the thing! But all you're really doing is making an out-of-range detector for one or two of the analog instruments, and driving an incandescent lamp. Exactly the same as the low-fuel lamp in my pickup truck, which unlike the MB system, doesn't use a separate sensor. It just lights the lamp when the sender voltage is too low. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
I'll bite. Tell me more. Randy B -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jim Cathey Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 12:27 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle > So, what is the best way to add a nice bright idiot light so that I > will quickly see it if the oil pressure drops > off while I am driving? A simple comparator (LM311?) watching the signal to the gauge ought to do it. Entirely as a bolt-on to the back of the instrument cluster. -- Jim ___
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
So, what is the best way to add a nice bright idiot light so that I will quickly see it if the oil pressure drops off while I am driving? A simple comparator (LM311?) watching the signal to the gauge ought to do it. Entirely as a bolt-on to the back of the instrument cluster. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
http://web.eaton.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=EatonCom%2FPage%2FEC_T_TwoThirdsBodyNav&c=Page&cid=1081452650158 or http://tinyurl.com/ftlsl This is the transmission we are currently purchasing. It's a solid transmission that won't allow a driver to torque it up to damage a driveline/PDL/Diff/clutch. $aveS many dollar$ with le$$ downtime for repair. Get my drift? Luther From: "Peter Frederick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Mercedes Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Subject: Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:00:29 -0500 But is it a planetary gear tranny like a benz or a chevy, or an automatically shifted constant mesh tranny? There is a difference, and although I'm out of touch, I do know that for many years there were few if any automatics in big trucks because they didn't hold up. GM spent a fortune in the 70s attempting. I'm sure that has changed, but I can year them shift, so many are still manuals... I'm quite certain no one would willing wrestle with a 16 speed rather than an automatic! Peter -- Luther KB5QHU Alma, Ark '83 300SD (231,xxx kmi) '82 300CD (159,222 kmi) '82 300D (74,000 kmi) needs MAJOR work
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
So, what is the best way to add a nice bright idiot light so that I will quickly see it if the oil pressure drops off while I am driving? On a Ford or Chevy, I would put a T fitting into the block and add a generic idiot light sender to trigger the bulb on the dash. There must be some more elaborate and fancy way to do this on an MB Diesel, right? Randy B -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Loren Faeth Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 6:17 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle I put oil temp and oil pressure gauges on my 200D because i wanted to find out what is really going on. With a factory short block, the 200D will generate over 100 PSI cold. I have never tried to see how high it will go. I drive it in a manner so as to not go over 100PSI. After it warms up it runs at 86 PSI. So you can see, that a warm engine running at less that 3 bar (~45 PSI) is a very tired, worn engine. With the combination temp and pressure, I could tell when the car was a quart low on oil, and that is pretty much time to change the oil anyway. The pressure would drop about 1 lb and the temp goes up a bit. In combination, they are as telling as an exhaust gas pyrometer. Under extreme load, the temp and pressure change too. I just never put in an EGT pyrometer to find the correlation. Yes, Brian, it is an idiot needle, but it works and prevents a lot of crap from uninformed MB owners at the stealerships. After you understand it, it will tell you a lot about the condition of the bearings. My 200D will never come off the peg, even hot and idling. But it was a very tight engine out of the factory. Loren Loren At 12:09 AM 4/23/2006, you wrote: >I've wondered for some time now, and it came up again tonight as I told the >wife what to look for when she drives the 240D: > >Why does the oil pressure gauge simply peg at 3 almost all the time? In >doing so, it is less a gauge, and more an idiot light. Why didn't Mercedes >redesign the gauge so that it provided precise feedback as to the pressure? > >OR > >On the other hand, is it the case that the gauge does provide precise feed >back, but that's just how the oil pressure acts in a diesel? > >It stays pegged except when the engine is completely warm, and it's hot >outside, and I have come down to idle. > >Brian >83 240D >___
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Let me check on that, I'll respond tomorrow from work. On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:00:29 -0500, Peter Frederick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: But is it a planetary gear tranny like a benz or a chevy, or an automatically shifted constant mesh tranny? There is a difference, and although I'm out of touch, I do know that for many years there were few if any automatics in big trucks because they didn't hold up. GM spent a fortune in the 70s attempting. I'm sure that has changed, but I can year them shift, so many are still manuals... I'm quite certain no one would willing wrestle with a 16 speed rather than an automatic! Peter -- Luther KB5QHU Alma, Ark '83 300SD (231,xxx kmi) '82 300CD (159,xxx kmi) '82 300D (74,000 kmi) needs MAJOR work
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
But is it a planetary gear tranny like a benz or a chevy, or an automatically shifted constant mesh tranny? There is a difference, and although I'm out of touch, I do know that for many years there were few if any automatics in big trucks because they didn't hold up. GM spent a fortune in the 70s attempting. I'm sure that has changed, but I can year them shift, so many are still manuals... I'm quite certain no one would willing wrestle with a 16 speed rather than an automatic! Peter
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Hydrak is back, with a computer, this time! At 07:53 PM 4/24/2006, you wrote: swift sucks. Luther Gulseth wrote: > "there is a reason over-the-road trucks don't have automatics." I must beg to differ. Current technology has the situation in automatics much more lucrative than a manual trans. The OTR auto's are a hydraulic/brain control of the same manual gear box. The reasons for this being a better system are: less driver abuse, less driver turnover (none seem to want to drive a manual ever again...), better fuel economy, and longer clutch life. All lead to less cost to the company. I believe at least 1 OTR company (Swift?) has a large % (maybe >80%?) of their fleet as automatics, our company has several also. It's the wave of the future! > > Luther -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 81 240D, 76 450SEL, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net ___ http://www.striplin.net For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
not car auto trans. those are allisons. At 07:51 PM 4/24/2006, you wrote: over the road trucks do to have autos now days Peter Frederick wrote: > No, the 727 type is long dead, alas, as they were by far the best of > the American automatics. The current ones are a complete re-design, > and are built in Mexico. For a while, the rework rate was 100%. > > Everyone had trouble with automatics and big truck diesels -- there is > a reason over-the-road trucks don't have automatics. A friend of ours > in on his third (last time I hear) in his Ford 3/4 ton -- towing a big > Sundowner trailer and three horses seems to kill the tranny. > > Peter > > > ___ > http://www.striplin.net > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net > > > -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 81 240D, 76 450SEL, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net ___ http://www.striplin.net For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
swift sucks. Luther Gulseth wrote: "there is a reason over-the-road trucks don't have automatics." I must beg to differ. Current technology has the situation in automatics much more lucrative than a manual trans. The OTR auto's are a hydraulic/brain control of the same manual gear box. The reasons for this being a better system are: less driver abuse, less driver turnover (none seem to want to drive a manual ever again...), better fuel economy, and longer clutch life. All lead to less cost to the company. I believe at least 1 OTR company (Swift?) has a large % (maybe >80%?) of their fleet as automatics, our company has several also. It's the wave of the future! Luther -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 81 240D, 76 450SEL, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
over the road trucks do to have autos now days Peter Frederick wrote: No, the 727 type is long dead, alas, as they were by far the best of the American automatics. The current ones are a complete re-design, and are built in Mexico. For a while, the rework rate was 100%. Everyone had trouble with automatics and big truck diesels -- there is a reason over-the-road trucks don't have automatics. A friend of ours in on his third (last time I hear) in his Ford 3/4 ton -- towing a big Sundowner trailer and three horses seems to kill the tranny. Peter ___ http://www.striplin.net For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 81 240D, 76 450SEL, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Peter, A friend of mine drove a White / Volvo diesel "big truck" with a filly automatic transmission for the last several years. I has told me several times that he would never go back - the fuel savings alone is worth it. And, oh by the way, his automatic transmission has over 1,000,000 miles on it & counting. Atomatics have been more reliable than manual transmissions for many years now. Thanks, Tom Hargrave 256-656-1924 www.kegkits.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Peter Frederick Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 9:55 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle No, the 727 type is long dead, alas, as they were by far the best of the American automatics. The current ones are a complete re-design, and are built in Mexico. For a while, the rework rate was 100%. Everyone had trouble with automatics and big truck diesels -- there is a reason over-the-road trucks don't have automatics. A friend of ours in on his third (last time I hear) in his Ford 3/4 ton -- towing a big Sundowner trailer and three horses seems to kill the tranny. Peter ___ http://www.striplin.net For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
I put oil temp and oil pressure gauges on my 200D because i wanted to find out what is really going on. With a factory short block, the 200D will generate over 100 PSI cold. I have never tried to see how high it will go. I drive it in a manner so as to not go over 100PSI. After it warms up it runs at 86 PSI. So you can see, that a warm engine running at less that 3 bar (~45 PSI) is a very tired, worn engine. With the combination temp and pressure, I could tell when the car was a quart low on oil, and that is pretty much time to change the oil anyway. The pressure would drop about 1 lb and the temp goes up a bit. In combination, they are as telling as an exhaust gas pyrometer. Under extreme load, the temp and pressure change too. I just never put in an EGT pyrometer to find the correlation. Yes, Brian, it is an idiot needle, but it works and prevents a lot of crap from uninformed MB owners at the stealerships. After you understand it, it will tell you a lot about the condition of the bearings. My 200D will never come off the peg, even hot and idling. But it was a very tight engine out of the factory. Loren Loren At 12:09 AM 4/23/2006, you wrote: I've wondered for some time now, and it came up again tonight as I told the wife what to look for when she drives the 240D: Why does the oil pressure gauge simply peg at 3 almost all the time? In doing so, it is less a gauge, and more an idiot light. Why didn't Mercedes redesign the gauge so that it provided precise feedback as to the pressure? OR On the other hand, is it the case that the gauge does provide precise feed back, but that's just how the oil pressure acts in a diesel? It stays pegged except when the engine is completely warm, and it's hot outside, and I have come down to idle. Brian 83 240D ___ http://www.striplin.net For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Cool. I bet they make that stout-sonding whining as they wind up. (of course the 727 in big block and small block version has a nice distinctive whining sound too). As kids, we used to like listening to the Blue Bird busses go by (our private school couldn't afford them). You heard that tranny and the big block Chevy with its "rapping" out the tailpipe. *Brian* Mitch wrote: When GM came out with the Duramax, they used an Allison bus tranny for the auto On 4/24/06, Mitch Haley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > "Kaleb C. Striplin" wrote: > > > > Everyone is forgetting how crappy the dodge trannies are, even the stick > > shifts dont hold up well in those trucks. I have have been told they > > fixed that issue within the last year or so though. > > > > Now it's my turn to maybe get it wrong going by memory, but IIRC, > the Dodge started out with a Getrag 360 5sp or a Torqueflite 727 3sp. > The getrag was OK if you left the IP settings stock and didn't tow > heavy loads in 5th. The 727 soon gave way to a 4sp variant (518?) > that had an overdrive in the tailshaft. Much of the trouble was in > the overdrive with that one. In 1994 when the new body came out, > the 5sp was changed to a New Venture 4500. That's a strong enough > tranny but IIRC the nut holding 5th gear on the shaft tended to > fall off. The auto changed to a new design 4sp overdrive, which > does not last anywhere near as long as the engine. In the late > 1990s, the 6sp NV5600 was introduced as an option. I never heard > a disparaging word about the 5600 or the ZF 6sp that Ford put > behind the 7.3 Powerstroke. > When GM came out with the Duramax, they used an Allison bus tranny > for the auto, and very few were sold with sticks. The Duramax also > marked an upsurge in the horsepower competition, now I believe all > three offer over 300hp and 600ft-lb. I don't know how the trannys > have been holding up under the arms race of the last 4-5 years. > I believe that Ford and Dodge have followed GM's lead in using > a commercial grade auto trans, but I really haven't been paying > attention. > Mitch > > ___ > http://www.striplin.net > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net >
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
On 4/24/06, Jim Cathey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > With modern control electronics (rather than analog fluidics computers) > the resurrection of the Hydrak(ula) approach to an automatic > transmission > is viable. Everything old is new again! > I'm waiting for steam cars to come back. You think diesels have low-end torque... Alex Chamberlain '87 300D Turbo '93 Isuzu Trooper
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Normal automatics have trouble at the torque loads developed by large diesel engines and large cargo capacity -- very difficult to keep them from slipping. Yeah, with only one clutch you can make it a big beefy mother so it'll survive, but a planetary slushbox needs half a dozen of them... With modern control electronics (rather than analog fluidics computers) the resurrection of the Hydrak(ula) approach to an automatic transmission is viable. Everything old is new again! -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
My point exactly -- those are NOT planetary gear internal clutch shifted "slushboxes", they are automatically shifted constant mesh "manual" trannies (similar to the Renault and Citroen trannies of days gone by). I assume there is some sort of hydraulic coupling or torque converter and a normal clutch -- Renault used a steel filing filled drum and electric current, Citroen used a hydraulically operated standard clutch. A bit harsh sometimes. Both used servos to drive the shit lever of their normal manual tranny. Normal automatics have trouble at the torque loads developed by large diesel engines and large cargo capacity -- very difficult to keep them from slipping. THAT is the reason there are few if any "automotive" type automatics in large trucks. Believe me, the industry has tried for years to get them to work, one heck of a lot less wear and much easier to drive -- beats the you-know-what out of getting stuck in low gear on a steep upgrade, unable to get the truck to pull in the next gear manually! No kidding the drivers don't want to switch back to a cranky, easy to crash tranny! Peter
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
"there is a reason over-the-road trucks don't have automatics." I must beg to differ. Current technology has the situation in automatics much more lucrative than a manual trans. The OTR auto's are a hydraulic/brain control of the same manual gear box. The reasons for this being a better system are: less driver abuse, less driver turnover (none seem to want to drive a manual ever again...), better fuel economy, and longer clutch life. All lead to less cost to the company. I believe at least 1 OTR company (Swift?) has a large % (maybe >80%?) of their fleet as automatics, our company has several also. It's the wave of the future! Luther ~No, the 727 type is long dead, alas, as they were by far the best of ~the American automatics. The current ones are a complete re-design, ~and are built in Mexico. For a while, the rework rate was 100%. ~ ~Everyone had trouble with automatics and big truck diesels -- there is ~a reason over-the-road trucks don't have automatics. A friend of ours ~in on his third (last time I hear) in his Ford 3/4 ton -- towing a big ~Sundowner trailer and three horses seems to kill the tranny. ~ ~Peter ~ ~ -- Luther KB5QHU Alma, Ark '83 300SD (231,xxx kmi) '82 300CD (159,222 kmi) '82 300D (74,000 kmi) needs MAJOR work
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
No, the 727 type is long dead, alas, as they were by far the best of the American automatics. The current ones are a complete re-design, and are built in Mexico. For a while, the rework rate was 100%. Everyone had trouble with automatics and big truck diesels -- there is a reason over-the-road trucks don't have automatics. A friend of ours in on his third (last time I hear) in his Ford 3/4 ton -- towing a big Sundowner trailer and three horses seems to kill the tranny. Peter
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Tom Hargrave wrote: > > Kaleb, > > My Wife works for Daimler-Chrysler... > > I do know that the company has been very proactive with their warrantee / > recall program. It's more than I can say for some other auto makers. I've been trying to get D-C to honor a rustproofing warranty since 1997. I have a nice tape recording of the body shop manager at a Dodge dealer telling me that Chryler doesn't like honoring their warranties. I've been getting ready to sue the crap out of D-C and the dealer and letting a judge decide which one cheated me. Do you have a better idea?
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
"Kaleb C. Striplin" wrote: > > Everyone is forgetting how crappy the dodge trannies are, even the stick > shifts dont hold up well in those trucks. I have have been told they > fixed that issue within the last year or so though. > Now it's my turn to maybe get it wrong going by memory, but IIRC, the Dodge started out with a Getrag 360 5sp or a Torqueflite 727 3sp. The getrag was OK if you left the IP settings stock and didn't tow heavy loads in 5th. The 727 soon gave way to a 4sp variant (518?) that had an overdrive in the tailshaft. Much of the trouble was in the overdrive with that one. In 1994 when the new body came out, the 5sp was changed to a New Venture 4500. That's a strong enough tranny but IIRC the nut holding 5th gear on the shaft tended to fall off. The auto changed to a new design 4sp overdrive, which does not last anywhere near as long as the engine. In the late 1990s, the 6sp NV5600 was introduced as an option. I never heard a disparaging word about the 5600 or the ZF 6sp that Ford put behind the 7.3 Powerstroke. When GM came out with the Duramax, they used an Allison bus tranny for the auto, and very few were sold with sticks. The Duramax also marked an upsurge in the horsepower competition, now I believe all three offer over 300hp and 600ft-lb. I don't know how the trannys have been holding up under the arms race of the last 4-5 years. I believe that Ford and Dodge have followed GM's lead in using a commercial grade auto trans, but I really haven't been paying attention. Mitch
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Tom Hargrave wrote: There actually is an advantage to a real "idiot light". There's nothing like a red light popping on to grab yout attention. Some GM cars have a red light next to the top or bottom of each gauge (depending on which is the "danger zone") that turns on, accompanied by a warning chime, when the gauge reading indicates a problem. A good idea, although the iffy nature of GM electronics tends to defeat it. David Brodbeck '83 300D Turbo
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
That surprises me - BUT - I readily admit I don't know what's been going on with Chrysler past about 1974 or so. I thought the automatics were still Torquflites, which have the well-deserved nickname "bulletproof" (at least the 727 T-flites). Only now they probably have an overdrive. Brian On 4/23/06, Kaleb C. Striplin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Everyone is forgetting how crappy the dodge trannies are, even the stick > shifts dont hold up well in those trucks. I have have been told they > fixed that issue within the last year or so though. > > Mitch Haley wrote: > > > > >>I've got a better one for you. A friend of mine purchased a > >>new Ford 3/4 ton diesel truck a few years back. He noticed > >>that the oil pressure gauge always read mid level regardless > >>of engine speed and being an Engineer, he knew better. He > >>took it to Ford for diagnosis and found out in the process that > >>the gauge was connected to an "idiot light" sensor and when the > >>sensor turned on, the gauge swung to mid range. In other words, > >>the gauge was nothing more than a fancy idiot light! Needless to > >>say, Don was not a happy camper! > > > > > > Wait until he figures out how the coolant and tranny temperature > > gauges operate. Depending on model year, both may also be binary > > indicators. They either say "don't worry" or "please pay $3000". > > (in the case of the coolant temp needle, often more than $3000) > > http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/ > > > > BTW, someone didn't have the Dodge/Cummins chronology exactly > > right. 1989-199x were rotary pump, no intercooler. 199x-1993 > > were rotary pump, intercooled. 1994-1998.5 were twelve valve, > > inline pump, intercooled, newer body style. Power went up during > > that period, 1996-98.5 were considered the best of the bunch > > before common rail came along. The 24v of the late 90's and > > early 00's just wasn't as highly regarded. > > What stuck in my mind from when I first started reading those > > forums in 2001 was that there were guys on the Ford forums who > > would admit that Cummins was better than Navistar, and there > > were guys on the Dodge forums who would say that Ford had > > a better chassis. Neither group would give GM credit for > > anything. > > > > As somebody mentioned earlier, I'd never own a turbodiesel > > towing rig with a slushbox tranny. I know where I can buy > > a brand new *2005* F-350 with a custom towing body on the back. > > It's got an auto trans, and apparently nobody wants to buy it, or > > it would have been sold at least six months ago. I don't know > > if it's the two door cab, the auto tranny, the towing bed, or > > the combination of the three, but the dealer that ordered it > > that way is stuck with it. I think if it was a supercab or > > supercrew with four captain's chairs and a six speed trans > > it wouldn't have been on the lot for a month. > > Mitch. > > ___ > > http://www.striplin.net > > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > > http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net > > > > > > > > -- > Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK > 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, > 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 81 240D, > 76 450SEL, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 72 250C, 69 250 > http://www.striplin.net > > ___ > http://www.striplin.net > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net >
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:22:43 -0500 "Tom Hargrave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 87 - 89 were really bad years & they rebuilt a lot of transmissions for > free. > > They also had issues with the V6 Misubishi engines. The valve geometry > was wrong and the valve guides would wear egg shaped in less than > 100,000 miles. We didn't have the car long enough to experience the valve guide wear. My wife had a seizure while driving down to pick me up at the University (while stopped at a stop sign, fortunately) and ran the Caravan through the front door of a small drug store (which was nearly empty, fortunately). The insurance company totalled it. Craig
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
I've heard that time and time again but it makes me wonder what tranny my '96 Dakota has in it. An Indy I was using condemned it in about '01 because it was shuddering a bit. I did a good tuneup removing the splitfire sparkplugs I'd bought and all was well. Now with 187,000+ miles on it its still fine, shifts a little hard in its old age but still goes good and gets around 18mpg. Now in all honesty I've beaten the everloving snot out of it (as I do with most everything). I got the v8 and drove it like a highschool kid at first. Hauled a 4500# tractor (on a 1000+# trailer so right on the limit of capacity) 300 miles once. I've hauled snowmobiles, pull started farm tractors and drag raced Camaros (hellooo towing gears, she's FAST off the line) and its never wimpered... I'm thinking when the rust monster kills this one I'll find another pre-97' (old body style, you can keep balljoints in it) and drive it into the ground... -Curt Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 10:37:42 -0500 From: "Kaleb C. Striplin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle To: Mercedes Discussion List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Everyone is forgetting how crappy the dodge trannies are, even the stick shifts dont hold up well in those trucks. I have have been told they fixed that issue within the last year or so though. - Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Apr 24 01:20:37 2006 Received: from bee.hiwaay.net ([216.180.54.11]) by server5.arterytc5.net with esmtps (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.52) id 1FXpkg-0001Bv-MP for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mon, 24 Apr 2006 01:20:36 + Received: from tom ([68.62.178.53]) by bee.hiwaay.net (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k3O1KWiO1291203 for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:20:32 -0500 (CDT) From: "Tom Hargrave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Mercedes Discussion List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:22:43 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Thread-Index: AcZnJ6llj4u37qwPS0urwKhYF2Ju0gAFYllw X-Antivirus-Scanner: Clean mail though you should still use an Antivirus Subject: Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle X-BeenThere: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list Reply-To: Mercedes Discussion List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Id: Mercedes Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: <http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net>, <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Archive: <http://striplin.net/pipermail/mercedes_striplin.net> List-Post: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Help: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Subscribe: <http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net>, <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 01:20:38 - 87 - 89 were really bad years & they rebuilt a lot of transmissions for free. They also had issues with the V6 Misubishi engines. The valve geometry was wrong and the valve guides would wear egg shaped in less than 100,000 miles. Thanks, Tom Hargrave 256-656-1924 www.kegkits.com -----Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Craig McCluskey Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 5:45 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 16:53:10 -0500 "Tom Hargrave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > She gets the inside scoop of a lot of issues & they were having > serious tranny issues during the years I mentioned. There may have > been problems with later years but not like the late 80's & early 90's. > > I do know that the company has been very proactive with their > warrantee / recall program. It's more than I can say for some other auto makers. We had an '89 Grand Caravan that started leaking transmission fluid around '92 or so. I took it to a local independent to have the pan gasket replaced, but then decided to take it to the dealer. They completely rebuilt the transmission at no charge. Craig ___ http://www.striplin.net For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Craig McCluskey wrote: We had an '89 Grand Caravan that started leaking transmission fluid around '92 or so. I took it to a local independent to have the pan gasket replaced, but then decided to take it to the dealer. They completely rebuilt the transmission at no charge. The old three-speed automatics in the K-Cars were very robust. The four-speeds that followed were, well, not. We had a '92 Grand Caravan 3.3L from new. I'm not sure the transmission was ever serviced once the warranty (and hence dealer service regimen) expired, but it was still working perfectly when we sold it at 175,000 miles. That was a great car for what it was. I don't think I've ever met a Caravan owner who believes this story, but it's true. Tom '82 300D 334k - another unkillable automatic, but properly serviced '96 Passat TDI - 197k on original clutch; few believe that story as well
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Cavitation is a result of the temporary enlargement of the bore during the injection stroke. It's a problem in all direct injection engines due to the sharper peak pressure increase (IDI engines have a smoother pressure rise), and is a particular problem in some Ford Powerstrokes because they were bored out. The cylinder wall is really too thin, and it flexes too much, hence the cavitation as it vibrates back and forth. The "crack" of the supersonic shock wave from the direct injection doesn't help any, either. An anticavitation additive is required to prevent erosion of the exterior of the cylinder bore (in the cooling passage) -- it shows up as a series of neat, identical size holes, usually in a fairly straight row up the cylinder or liner. Cavitation erosion has been a problem for some engine makers for many years -- used to be called "electrolysis corrosion" before the exact mechanism was elucidated. It can be a problem in any diesel, and the higher the specific output, the worse it gets. Peter
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 16:53:10 -0500 "Tom Hargrave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > She gets the inside scoop of a lot of issues & they were having serious > tranny issues during the years I mentioned. There may have been problems > with later years but not like the late 80's & early 90's. > > I do know that the company has been very proactive with their warrantee > / recall program. It's more than I can say for some other auto makers. We had an '89 Grand Caravan that started leaking transmission fluid around '92 or so. I took it to a local independent to have the pan gasket replaced, but then decided to take it to the dealer. They completely rebuilt the transmission at no charge. Craig
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
There actually is an advantage to a real "idiot light". There's nothing like a red light popping on to grab yout attention. Yes, the Check Engine light should _also_ mean "Look at the gauges NOW!" I've thought about retrofitting a "Check Gauges" light into our cars that have electric oil pressure and water temperature senders, but I never seem to get around to projects like this. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
I was talking aobut frod, not DC, but yes, DC has gotten better as far as trucks go, I always heard the trannies, even the manual ones, were not worth a crap behind the cumming till the last couple of model years. Tom Hargrave wrote: Kaleb, My Wife works for Daimler-Chrysler and we've owned a long string of their products, including our share of trucks. She gets the inside scoop of a lot of issues & they were having serious tranny issues during the years I mentioned. There may have been problems with later years but not like the late 80's & early 90's. I do know that the company has been very proactive with their warrantee / recall program. It's more than I can say for some other auto makers. Thanks, Tom Hargrave 256-656-1924 www.kegkits.com -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 81 240D, 76 450SEL, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Kaleb, My Wife works for Daimler-Chrysler and we've owned a long string of their products, including our share of trucks. She gets the inside scoop of a lot of issues & they were having serious tranny issues during the years I mentioned. There may have been problems with later years but not like the late 80's & early 90's. I do know that the company has been very proactive with their warrantee / recall program. It's more than I can say for some other auto makers. Thanks, Tom Hargrave 256-656-1924 www.kegkits.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kaleb C. Striplin Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 4:24 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle Actually, I have always heard just the oposite, the older ones were better, newer ones had the problems, cavitation etc. Dont know because I have never had one. Tom Hargrave wrote: > There were real issues in the late 80's, early 90's and the problems > have been fix'd for a long time. > > > Thanks, > Tom Hargrave > 256-656-1924 > www.kegkits.com > -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 81 240D, 76 450SEL, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net ___ http://www.striplin.net For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Actually, I have always heard just the oposite, the older ones were better, newer ones had the problems, cavitation etc. Dont know because I have never had one. Tom Hargrave wrote: There were real issues in the late 80's, early 90's and the problems have been fix'd for a long time. Thanks, Tom Hargrave 256-656-1924 www.kegkits.com -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 81 240D, 76 450SEL, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
There actually is an advantage to a real "idiot light". There's nothing like a red light popping on to grab yout attention. On the pther havd, a gauge dropping to zero won't get most driver's attention until you start hearing strange noises from under the hood. Thanks, Tom Hargrave 256-656-1924 www.kegkits.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Cathey Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 8:22 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle > So basically, we just know how the gauge should read, and if doesn't, > then there's a problem. Yes, and because it is a real gauge (though with an expanded scale) you can see enough of what's going on to get advance warning of problems. > pressure in my 440 V8. All I know is that I get a really good feeling > when I see the pressure up around 70psi at cold idle. It makes me > think that I have Which is about where your Benz engine is as well, most likely. > a really fresh, tight engine (which happens to be true). And when I'm > idling in traffic on a hot day, and the pressure drops to 45 or even > into the 30's, 3 Bar, or even 2. Still excellent, if MB's recommendations are generalizable at all (and they probably are). > I feel anxiety. But those are just general impressions. Hence idiot lights! But I prefer to learn to avoid anxiety rather than to avoid information that provokes it. "Don't Panic" goggles, anyone? > The real secret is oil flow - oil flow is what cools your bearings. And pistons, in the case of the turbo engines. As they're fed by oil squirters, there is a threshold pressure below which they won't get hit. To quote Igon: That would be Bad. (But only under heavy loads.) > caused by your tight bearing clearances. Your pressure drops when hot > because the oil is thinner & two things happen. The first is that the > oil pump pumps a little less oil because more leaks back through the > pump (the pump insides don't seal perfectly). And the second is that > the thinner oil flows through the bearings easier & faster. Do not bearing clearances themselves open up when hot? A third factor, if so. Another factor, if operating, is if your hot idle speed is any lower than the cold idle speed. A slower oil pump develops less pressure. -- Jim ___ http://www.striplin.net For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
There were real issues in the late 80's, early 90's and the problems have been fix'd for a long time. Thanks, Tom Hargrave 256-656-1924 www.kegkits.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kaleb C. Striplin Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 10:38 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle Everyone is forgetting how crappy the dodge trannies are, even the stick shifts dont hold up well in those trucks. I have have been told they fixed that issue within the last year or so though. Mitch Haley wrote: > >>I've got a better one for you. A friend of mine purchased a new Ford >>3/4 ton diesel truck a few years back. He noticed that the oil >>pressure gauge always read mid level regardless of engine speed and >>being an Engineer, he knew better. He took it to Ford for diagnosis >>and found out in the process that the gauge was connected to an "idiot >>light" sensor and when the sensor turned on, the gauge swung to mid >>range. In other words, the gauge was nothing more than a fancy idiot >>light! Needless to say, Don was not a happy camper! > > > Wait until he figures out how the coolant and tranny temperature > gauges operate. Depending on model year, both may also be binary > indicators. They either say "don't worry" or "please pay $3000". > (in the case of the coolant temp needle, often more than $3000) > http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/ > > BTW, someone didn't have the Dodge/Cummins chronology exactly right. > 1989-199x were rotary pump, no intercooler. 199x-1993 were rotary > pump, intercooled. 1994-1998.5 were twelve valve, inline pump, > intercooled, newer body style. Power went up during that period, > 1996-98.5 were considered the best of the bunch before common rail > came along. The 24v of the late 90's and early 00's just wasn't as > highly regarded. > What stuck in my mind from when I first started reading those forums > in 2001 was that there were guys on the Ford forums who would admit > that Cummins was better than Navistar, and there were guys on the > Dodge forums who would say that Ford had a better chassis. Neither > group would give GM credit for anything. > > As somebody mentioned earlier, I'd never own a turbodiesel towing rig > with a slushbox tranny. I know where I can buy a brand new *2005* > F-350 with a custom towing body on the back. > It's got an auto trans, and apparently nobody wants to buy it, or it > would have been sold at least six months ago. I don't know if it's the > two door cab, the auto tranny, the towing bed, or the combination of > the three, but the dealer that ordered it that way is stuck with it. I > think if it was a supercab or supercrew with four captain's chairs and > a six speed trans it wouldn't have been on the lot for a month. > Mitch. > ___ > http://www.striplin.net > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net > > > -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 81 240D, 76 450SEL, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net ___ http://www.striplin.net For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Everyone is forgetting how crappy the dodge trannies are, even the stick shifts dont hold up well in those trucks. I have have been told they fixed that issue within the last year or so though. The bolt-on 5th gear comes off the shaft. No real penalty except that you lose 5th and have to drive around in 4 until you get it fixed. Almost happened to mine, and I got it 'fixed' under warrantee. Did happen to a friend's. The attachment was inadequate for the pounding and torque variation (acceleration? jerk?) of the diesel. I've not heard of similar problems with the 6-speed. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Jim, You raise an interesting point regarding hot clearances. The crankshaft, engine block and bearings no doubt have different thermal expansion rates. I may be able to make the argument (need to get out some old books or google in this day) that the bearings (Babbitt type material) initially grow more rapidly than the bearing journal or block tightening the bearing clearance and the need for good lubrication when cold - isn't it claimed that's where the most wear takes place. I sure the engine design is for a particular clearance once the engine is thermally stable for durability, getting to that design temperature will be a trade off for wear noise etc. Just a thought to get you thinking on Sunday morning -beautiful day on the west side on the hills. Dennis T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Cathey Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 6:22 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle Do not bearing clearances themselves open up when hot? A third factor, if so. Another factor, if operating, is if your hot idle speed is any lower than the cold idle speed. A slower oil pump develops less pressure. -- Jim -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.5/322 - Release Date: 4/22/2006
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Everyone is forgetting how crappy the dodge trannies are, even the stick shifts dont hold up well in those trucks. I have have been told they fixed that issue within the last year or so though. Mitch Haley wrote: I've got a better one for you. A friend of mine purchased a new Ford 3/4 ton diesel truck a few years back. He noticed that the oil pressure gauge always read mid level regardless of engine speed and being an Engineer, he knew better. He took it to Ford for diagnosis and found out in the process that the gauge was connected to an "idiot light" sensor and when the sensor turned on, the gauge swung to mid range. In other words, the gauge was nothing more than a fancy idiot light! Needless to say, Don was not a happy camper! Wait until he figures out how the coolant and tranny temperature gauges operate. Depending on model year, both may also be binary indicators. They either say "don't worry" or "please pay $3000". (in the case of the coolant temp needle, often more than $3000) http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/ BTW, someone didn't have the Dodge/Cummins chronology exactly right. 1989-199x were rotary pump, no intercooler. 199x-1993 were rotary pump, intercooled. 1994-1998.5 were twelve valve, inline pump, intercooled, newer body style. Power went up during that period, 1996-98.5 were considered the best of the bunch before common rail came along. The 24v of the late 90's and early 00's just wasn't as highly regarded. What stuck in my mind from when I first started reading those forums in 2001 was that there were guys on the Ford forums who would admit that Cummins was better than Navistar, and there were guys on the Dodge forums who would say that Ford had a better chassis. Neither group would give GM credit for anything. As somebody mentioned earlier, I'd never own a turbodiesel towing rig with a slushbox tranny. I know where I can buy a brand new *2005* F-350 with a custom towing body on the back. It's got an auto trans, and apparently nobody wants to buy it, or it would have been sold at least six months ago. I don't know if it's the two door cab, the auto tranny, the towing bed, or the combination of the three, but the dealer that ordered it that way is stuck with it. I think if it was a supercab or supercrew with four captain's chairs and a six speed trans it wouldn't have been on the lot for a month. Mitch. ___ http://www.striplin.net For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 81 240D, 76 450SEL, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Mercedes says anything over .5 bar at hot idle is just fine. Tom Hargrave wrote: Jim's correct - what matters is hot oil pressure at idle or a pressure drop at running speed & both are delivered by Mercedes oil pressure gauge. Even the American gauges that read actual pressure at running speeds deliver useless information at those speeds. I would correct one of Don's statements - I'd say that anything below 1.2 bar at hot idle shows an issue with the engine. He's 100% correct about the pegged gauge at road speeds. -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 81 240D, 76 450SEL, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
That is exactly how it is supposed to work. Zoltan Finks wrote: I've wondered for some time now, and it came up again tonight as I told the wife what to look for when she drives the 240D: Why does the oil pressure gauge simply peg at 3 almost all the time? In doing so, it is less a gauge, and more an idiot light. Why didn't Mercedes redesign the gauge so that it provided precise feedback as to the pressure? OR On the other hand, is it the case that the gauge does provide precise feed back, but that's just how the oil pressure acts in a diesel? It stays pegged except when the engine is completely warm, and it's hot outside, and I have come down to idle. Brian 83 240D ___ http://www.striplin.net For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 81 240D, 76 450SEL, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Hehe, you must not be too used to older engines. I grew up on a farm and we had Dodge pickups and other larger dump trucks and I would get worried when the oil pressure was reading about 0 at idle when warm, but Dad just said that's the way those old engines worked. And they seemed to continue to run (though after a while they did need work it seemed. And of course there was that one time in the tractor with the Cat engine that I thought seemed like the oil pressure was reading low, but Dad said, ahh it's probably just malfunctioning. Well... That's when I learned what engines are like when they die... (: It's a big old articulated tractor I forget what I was pulling through the field, but it seemed like it was losing power, so what did I do? I gave it more fuel! Still seemed to be having a problem and making more noise though... Then it stopped. Permanently. Oops, apparently the coolant had gotten into the oil and the gauge wasn't lying... Ahh well. That was in my younger teenage days and still learning mechanics. Nowadays I try to at least keep the oil pressure above 0. (: Levi On 4/23/06, Zoltan Finks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Wow. Interesting to know that about the Ford in that case. > > And as for the insights on the gauge - thanks. Finally I know what's up > with > that. > > So basically, we just know how the gauge should read, and if doesn't, then > there's a problem. > > I can swallow that when I admit to myself that I really don't truly know > the > implications of each gradation on my nice AutoMeter that tells me the > pressure in my 440 V8. All I know is that I get a really good feeling when > I > see the pressure up around 70psi at cold idle. It makes me think that I > have > a really fresh, tight engine (which happens to be true). And when I'm > idling > in traffic on a hot day, and the pressure drops to 45 or even into the > 30's, > I feel anxiety. But those are just general impressions. > > All I do know is that the engine needs adequate pressure to deliver a good > enough flow of oil to all the parts to sufficiently lube them for what > they're being asked to do. > > Brian > 83 240D > 68 Dodge Coronet 500 > > > On 4/23/06, Tom Hargrave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Jim's correct - what matters is hot oil pressure at idle or a pressure > > drop > > at running speed & both are delivered by Mercedes oil pressure gauge. > Even > > the American gauges that read actual pressure at running speeds deliver > > useless information at those speeds. > > > > I would correct one of Don's statements - I'd say that anything below > 1.2 > > bar at hot idle shows an issue with the engine. He's 100% correct about > > the > > pegged gauge at road speeds. > > > > I've got a better one for you. A friend of mine purchased a new Ford 3/4 > > ton > > diesel truck a few years back. He noticed that the oil pressure gauge > > always > > read mid level regardless of engine speed and being an Engineer, he knew > > better. He took it to Ford for diagnosis and found out in the process > that > > the gauge was connected to an "idiot light" sensor and when the sensor > > turned on, the gauge swung to mid range. In other words, the gauge was > > nothing more than a fancy idiot light! Needless to say, Don was not a > > happy > > camper! He's still driving the truck & he has a real oil pressure gauge > > mounted under the dash but he'll probably not purchase another one. Ford > > saved $6.00 and lost a loyal customer in the process. > > > > > > Thanks, > > Tom Hargrave > > 256-656-1924 > > www.kegkits.com > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > On Behalf Of Jim Cathey > > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 12:25 AM > > To: Mercedes Discussion List > > Subject: Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle > > > > > Why does the oil pressure gauge simply peg at 3 almost all the time? > > > In doing so, it is less a gauge, and more an idiot light. Why didn't > > > Mercedes redesign the gauge so that it provided precise feedback as to > > > the pressure? > > > > It's an interesting compromise of gauge and idiot light. Anything above > > 3 is more than enough, so the expanded scale lets you see more of the > > 'bad' > > area. I think anything less than 0.5 or 0.7 at hot idle is the danger > > zone. > > And if it's not at 3 on the road you have a problem. > > > > -- Jim > > > > > &
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
So basically, we just know how the gauge should read, and if doesn't, then there's a problem. Yes, and because it is a real gauge (though with an expanded scale) you can see enough of what's going on to get advance warning of problems. pressure in my 440 V8. All I know is that I get a really good feeling when I see the pressure up around 70psi at cold idle. It makes me think that I have Which is about where your Benz engine is as well, most likely. a really fresh, tight engine (which happens to be true). And when I'm idling in traffic on a hot day, and the pressure drops to 45 or even into the 30's, 3 Bar, or even 2. Still excellent, if MB's recommendations are generalizable at all (and they probably are). I feel anxiety. But those are just general impressions. Hence idiot lights! But I prefer to learn to avoid anxiety rather than to avoid information that provokes it. "Don't Panic" goggles, anyone? The real secret is oil flow - oil flow is what cools your bearings. And pistons, in the case of the turbo engines. As they're fed by oil squirters, there is a threshold pressure below which they won't get hit. To quote Igon: That would be Bad. (But only under heavy loads.) caused by your tight bearing clearances. Your pressure drops when hot because the oil is thinner & two things happen. The first is that the oil pump pumps a little less oil because more leaks back through the pump (the pump insides don't seal perfectly). And the second is that the thinner oil flows through the bearings easier & faster. Do not bearing clearances themselves open up when hot? A third factor, if so. Another factor, if operating, is if your hot idle speed is any lower than the cold idle speed. A slower oil pump develops less pressure. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
I'm curious, which engine is it? Thanks, Tom Hargrave 256-656-1924 www.kegkits.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Desert Rat Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 1:33 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle Tom, to quote my Owners Manual, page 53: "The oil pressure at idle may drop to 0.3 bar if the engine is at operating temperature but must rise immediately upon acceleration." I see 1 to 1.2 sometimes and I'm not happy about that but MB says it's OK. Using 20-50 Mobil 1 from 0-40 increased my hot idle from under 1 and I didn't like that at all! On 4/22/06, Tom Hargrave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Jim's correct - what matters is hot oil pressure at idle or a pressure > drop at running speed & both are delivered by Mercedes oil pressure > gauge. Even the American gauges that read actual pressure at running > speeds deliver useless information at those speeds. > > I would correct one of Don's statements - I'd say that anything below > 1.2 bar at hot idle shows an issue with the engine. He's 100% correct > about the pegged gauge at road speeds. > > I've got a better one for you. A friend of mine purchased a new Ford > 3/4 ton diesel truck a few years back. He noticed that the oil > pressure gauge always read mid level regardless of engine speed and > being an Engineer, he knew better. He took it to Ford for diagnosis > and found out in the process that the gauge was connected to an "idiot > light" sensor and when the sensor turned on, the gauge swung to mid > range. In other words, the gauge was nothing more than a fancy idiot > light! Needless to say, Don was not a happy camper! He's still driving > the truck & he has a real oil pressure gauge mounted under the dash > but he'll probably not purchase another one. Ford saved $6.00 and lost a loyal customer in the process. > > > Thanks, > Tom Hargrave > 256-656-1924 > www.kegkits.com > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Jim Cathey > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 12:25 AM > To: Mercedes Discussion List > Subject: Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle > > > Why does the oil pressure gauge simply peg at 3 almost all the time? > > In doing so, it is less a gauge, and more an idiot light. Why didn't > > Mercedes redesign the gauge so that it provided precise feedback as > > to the pressure? > > It's an interesting compromise of gauge and idiot light. Anything > above > 3 is more than enough, so the expanded scale lets you see more of the 'bad' > area. I think anything less than 0.5 or 0.7 at hot idle is the danger zone. > And if it's not at 3 on the road you have a problem. > > -- Jim > > > ___ > http://www.striplin.net > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net > > > ___ > http://www.striplin.net > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net > -- John Freer Palm Springs, CA 1992 500 SEL 140K "Stardust" 1985 380SL 145K "Blue Belle" 1996 Sidekick 57K "Kermit" ___ http://www.striplin.net For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Brian, The real secret is oil flow - oil flow is what cools your bearings. Your bearings have enough oil in them for lubrication without any additional oil, which is why it does not hurt an engine to start it with no oil pressure. You can actually run an engine at idle for hours as long as the bearings are lubricated. This is what the "snake oil" vendors do at shows to show off their products whan in reality, any engine pre-lubed with a quality oil will run fine. This is because the bearings are not under any real load and they are not producing much heat. Oil pressure is created when flow meets restriction and the restriction is caused by your tight bearing clearances. Your pressure drops when hot because the oil is thinner & two things happen. The first is that the oil pump pumps a little less oil because more leaks back through the pump (the pump insides don't seal perfectly). And the second is that the thinner oil flows through the bearings easier & faster. If your oil pressure is too low then you have a worn out oil pump (greater clearances in the pump) or you have less restriction in the system (worn bearings with greater clearance). Thanks, Tom Hargrave 256-656-1924 www.kegkits.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zoltan Finks Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 2:07 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle Wow. Interesting to know that about the Ford in that case. And as for the insights on the gauge - thanks. Finally I know what's up with that. So basically, we just know how the gauge should read, and if doesn't, then there's a problem. I can swallow that when I admit to myself that I really don't truly know the implications of each gradation on my nice AutoMeter that tells me the pressure in my 440 V8. All I know is that I get a really good feeling when I see the pressure up around 70psi at cold idle. It makes me think that I have a really fresh, tight engine (which happens to be true). And when I'm idling in traffic on a hot day, and the pressure drops to 45 or even into the 30's, I feel anxiety. But those are just general impressions. All I do know is that the engine needs adequate pressure to deliver a good enough flow of oil to all the parts to sufficiently lube them for what they're being asked to do. Brian 83 240D 68 Dodge Coronet 500 On 4/23/06, Tom Hargrave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Jim's correct - what matters is hot oil pressure at idle or a pressure > drop at running speed & both are delivered by Mercedes oil pressure > gauge. Even the American gauges that read actual pressure at running > speeds deliver useless information at those speeds. > > I would correct one of Don's statements - I'd say that anything below > 1.2 bar at hot idle shows an issue with the engine. He's 100% correct > about the pegged gauge at road speeds. > > I've got a better one for you. A friend of mine purchased a new Ford > 3/4 ton diesel truck a few years back. He noticed that the oil > pressure gauge always read mid level regardless of engine speed and > being an Engineer, he knew better. He took it to Ford for diagnosis > and found out in the process that the gauge was connected to an "idiot > light" sensor and when the sensor turned on, the gauge swung to mid > range. In other words, the gauge was nothing more than a fancy idiot > light! Needless to say, Don was not a happy camper! He's still driving > the truck & he has a real oil pressure gauge mounted under the dash > but he'll probably not purchase another one. Ford saved $6.00 and lost > a loyal customer in the process. > > > Thanks, > Tom Hargrave > 256-656-1924 > www.kegkits.com > > -----Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Jim Cathey > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 12:25 AM > To: Mercedes Discussion List > Subject: Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle > > > Why does the oil pressure gauge simply peg at 3 almost all the time? > > In doing so, it is less a gauge, and more an idiot light. Why didn't > > Mercedes redesign the gauge so that it provided precise feedback as > > to the pressure? > > It's an interesting compromise of gauge and idiot light. Anything > above > 3 is more than enough, so the expanded scale lets you see more of the > 'bad' > area. I think anything less than 0.5 or 0.7 at hot idle is the danger > zone. > And if it's not at 3 on the road you have a problem. > > -- Jim > > > ___ > http://www.striplin.net > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
On Apr 23, 2006, at 1:09 AM, Zoltan Finks wrote: It stays pegged except when the engine is completely warm, and it's hot outside, and I have come down to idle. Brian And it lived happily ever after. Johnny B. I Mac Therefore I am
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Tom Hargrave wrote: I've got a better one for you. A friend of mine purchased a new Ford 3/4 ton diesel truck a few years back. He noticed that the oil pressure gauge always read mid level regardless of engine speed and being an Engineer, he knew better. He took it to Ford for diagnosis and found out in the process that the gauge was connected to an "idiot light" sensor and when the sensor turned on, the gauge swung to mid range. In other words, the gauge was nothing more than a fancy idiot light! Volvo did that with the temperature gauges on some of their cars, too. I took the 'temperature stabilizer board' out of my Volvo 240 and jumpered around it to make the gauge into a real gauge again. Rumor has it their motivation for doing this was to reduce the number of dealer warranty complaints from people who thought their car was 'running a little hot' even though it was in the normal range. David Brodbeck '83 300D Turbo
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Wow. Interesting to know that about the Ford in that case. And as for the insights on the gauge - thanks. Finally I know what's up with that. So basically, we just know how the gauge should read, and if doesn't, then there's a problem. I can swallow that when I admit to myself that I really don't truly know the implications of each gradation on my nice AutoMeter that tells me the pressure in my 440 V8. All I know is that I get a really good feeling when I see the pressure up around 70psi at cold idle. It makes me think that I have a really fresh, tight engine (which happens to be true). And when I'm idling in traffic on a hot day, and the pressure drops to 45 or even into the 30's, I feel anxiety. But those are just general impressions. All I do know is that the engine needs adequate pressure to deliver a good enough flow of oil to all the parts to sufficiently lube them for what they're being asked to do. Brian 83 240D 68 Dodge Coronet 500 On 4/23/06, Tom Hargrave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Jim's correct - what matters is hot oil pressure at idle or a pressure > drop > at running speed & both are delivered by Mercedes oil pressure gauge. Even > the American gauges that read actual pressure at running speeds deliver > useless information at those speeds. > > I would correct one of Don's statements - I'd say that anything below 1.2 > bar at hot idle shows an issue with the engine. He's 100% correct about > the > pegged gauge at road speeds. > > I've got a better one for you. A friend of mine purchased a new Ford 3/4 > ton > diesel truck a few years back. He noticed that the oil pressure gauge > always > read mid level regardless of engine speed and being an Engineer, he knew > better. He took it to Ford for diagnosis and found out in the process that > the gauge was connected to an "idiot light" sensor and when the sensor > turned on, the gauge swung to mid range. In other words, the gauge was > nothing more than a fancy idiot light! Needless to say, Don was not a > happy > camper! He's still driving the truck & he has a real oil pressure gauge > mounted under the dash but he'll probably not purchase another one. Ford > saved $6.00 and lost a loyal customer in the process. > > > Thanks, > Tom Hargrave > 256-656-1924 > www.kegkits.com > > -----Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Jim Cathey > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 12:25 AM > To: Mercedes Discussion List > Subject: Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle > > > Why does the oil pressure gauge simply peg at 3 almost all the time? > > In doing so, it is less a gauge, and more an idiot light. Why didn't > > Mercedes redesign the gauge so that it provided precise feedback as to > > the pressure? > > It's an interesting compromise of gauge and idiot light. Anything above > 3 is more than enough, so the expanded scale lets you see more of the > 'bad' > area. I think anything less than 0.5 or 0.7 at hot idle is the danger > zone. > And if it's not at 3 on the road you have a problem. > > -- Jim > > > ___ > http://www.striplin.net > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For > used > parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net > > > ___ > http://www.striplin.net > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net >
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Tom, to quote my Owners Manual, page 53: "The oil pressure at idle may drop to 0.3 bar if the engine is at operating temperature but must rise immediately upon acceleration." I see 1 to 1.2 sometimes and I'm not happy about that but MB says it's OK. Using 20-50 Mobil 1 from 0-40 increased my hot idle from under 1 and I didn't like that at all! On 4/22/06, Tom Hargrave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Jim's correct - what matters is hot oil pressure at idle or a pressure drop > at running speed & both are delivered by Mercedes oil pressure gauge. Even > the American gauges that read actual pressure at running speeds deliver > useless information at those speeds. > > I would correct one of Don's statements - I'd say that anything below 1.2 > bar at hot idle shows an issue with the engine. He's 100% correct about the > pegged gauge at road speeds. > > I've got a better one for you. A friend of mine purchased a new Ford 3/4 ton > diesel truck a few years back. He noticed that the oil pressure gauge always > read mid level regardless of engine speed and being an Engineer, he knew > better. He took it to Ford for diagnosis and found out in the process that > the gauge was connected to an "idiot light" sensor and when the sensor > turned on, the gauge swung to mid range. In other words, the gauge was > nothing more than a fancy idiot light! Needless to say, Don was not a happy > camper! He's still driving the truck & he has a real oil pressure gauge > mounted under the dash but he'll probably not purchase another one. Ford > saved $6.00 and lost a loyal customer in the process. > > > Thanks, > Tom Hargrave > 256-656-1924 > www.kegkits.com > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Jim Cathey > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 12:25 AM > To: Mercedes Discussion List > Subject: Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle > > > Why does the oil pressure gauge simply peg at 3 almost all the time? > > In doing so, it is less a gauge, and more an idiot light. Why didn't > > Mercedes redesign the gauge so that it provided precise feedback as to > > the pressure? > > It's an interesting compromise of gauge and idiot light. Anything above > 3 is more than enough, so the expanded scale lets you see more of the 'bad' > area. I think anything less than 0.5 or 0.7 at hot idle is the danger zone. > And if it's not at 3 on the road you have a problem. > > -- Jim > > > ___ > http://www.striplin.net > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used > parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net > > > ___ > http://www.striplin.net > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net > -- John Freer Palm Springs, CA 1992 500 SEL 140K "Stardust" 1985 380SL 145K "Blue Belle" 1996 Sidekick 57K "Kermit"
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Jim's correct - what matters is hot oil pressure at idle or a pressure drop at running speed & both are delivered by Mercedes oil pressure gauge. Even the American gauges that read actual pressure at running speeds deliver useless information at those speeds. I would correct one of Don's statements - I'd say that anything below 1.2 bar at hot idle shows an issue with the engine. He's 100% correct about the pegged gauge at road speeds. I've got a better one for you. A friend of mine purchased a new Ford 3/4 ton diesel truck a few years back. He noticed that the oil pressure gauge always read mid level regardless of engine speed and being an Engineer, he knew better. He took it to Ford for diagnosis and found out in the process that the gauge was connected to an "idiot light" sensor and when the sensor turned on, the gauge swung to mid range. In other words, the gauge was nothing more than a fancy idiot light! Needless to say, Don was not a happy camper! He's still driving the truck & he has a real oil pressure gauge mounted under the dash but he'll probably not purchase another one. Ford saved $6.00 and lost a loyal customer in the process. Thanks, Tom Hargrave 256-656-1924 www.kegkits.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Cathey Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 12:25 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle > Why does the oil pressure gauge simply peg at 3 almost all the time? > In doing so, it is less a gauge, and more an idiot light. Why didn't > Mercedes redesign the gauge so that it provided precise feedback as to > the pressure? It's an interesting compromise of gauge and idiot light. Anything above 3 is more than enough, so the expanded scale lets you see more of the 'bad' area. I think anything less than 0.5 or 0.7 at hot idle is the danger zone. And if it's not at 3 on the road you have a problem. -- Jim ___ http://www.striplin.net For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Idiot Needle
Why does the oil pressure gauge simply peg at 3 almost all the time? In doing so, it is less a gauge, and more an idiot light. Why didn't Mercedes redesign the gauge so that it provided precise feedback as to the pressure? It's an interesting compromise of gauge and idiot light. Anything above 3 is more than enough, so the expanded scale lets you see more of the 'bad' area. I think anything less than 0.5 or 0.7 at hot idle is the danger zone. And if it's not at 3 on the road you have a problem. -- Jim
[MBZ] Idiot Needle
I've wondered for some time now, and it came up again tonight as I told the wife what to look for when she drives the 240D: Why does the oil pressure gauge simply peg at 3 almost all the time? In doing so, it is less a gauge, and more an idiot light. Why didn't Mercedes redesign the gauge so that it provided precise feedback as to the pressure? OR On the other hand, is it the case that the gauge does provide precise feed back, but that's just how the oil pressure acts in a diesel? It stays pegged except when the engine is completely warm, and it's hot outside, and I have come down to idle. Brian 83 240D
