Re: [MBZ] OT: Gnome 3 and Linux Desktop Managers

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

You can (and are required to to get reasonably good performance) in 
winders.  You can in Mac OS or OSX (if you like) but you seldom need to 
for normal stuff.  It is Unix underneath.




fmiser via Mercedes 
February 20, 2017 at 11:23 PM

Curley wrote:



All reasons why I have not been comfortable moving to linux.
Lots of monkeying around under the hood in a language I don't
know, and have little interest in learning.


In general, a user does not have to dig around under the hood.
What makes Linux different is you _can_.


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Gnome 3 and Linux Desktop Managers

[fmiser via Mercedes]

Curley wrote:



All reasons why I have not been comfortable moving to linux.
Lots of monkeying around under the hood in a language I don't
know, and have little interest in learning.


In general, a user does not have to dig around under the hood.
What makes Linux different is you _can_.


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Gnome 3 and Linux Desktop Managers

[fmiser via Mercedes]

Craig wrote:



You may recall my abortive attempt last year to update to a new
version of CentOS so I can run current versions of browsers. I
just could not get Gnome 3 to work like Gnome 2 I have been
using for years.


Yeah.  I have a very strong dislike for Gnome3.


When it was introduced in spring 2011, GNOME 3 abandoned the
traditional desktop design of GNOME 2 in favor of the new
GNOME Shell.


All the nasty things people say about the Win8 desktop was
actually delivered first in Gnome3.


Maybe I should follow the comment, "Those who want a traditional
UI have probably already left the GNOME Shell for alternatives."


I sure have.


Xfce, LXDE, and MATE



So, it sounds like MATE might be a possibility ...


I have concerns about the long term viability of MATE.  A project
whose motive seems to be "I don't like the new GNOME" seems it
could fizzle out soon.
I had already moved most of the "normal" users to XFCE even before
GNOME3 appeared.  XFCE is a full session manager, and makes things
like auto-mounting portable drives easy.  Customizing it can be a
bit limiting, compared to, say OpenBox.  But Open/Flux/Black box
generally _require_ some customizing and are only window managers
- not full session managers.

Part of what I so like about Linux is users are not all forced
into one way of doing things.  Some like the fully integrated KDE
environment.  I think there are actually some weirdos who like
GNOME3!!  LXDE feels a lot like MSWin XP or so.

But a browser _should_ not depend on whether you are running KDE,
GNOME, MATE, LXDE, XFCE, or an un-managed X session.  For example,
Firefox is statically linked so it doesn't even depend on other
libraries and I have it running on quite a number of different
systems.

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Gnome 3 and Linux Desktop Managers

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

For most people a "userfied" version like Mint or Ubuntu is plenty. Angie has 
done super well on Mint for 3 or 4 years now. She figured out how to rip CDs 
for herself even...
-Curt

  From: Curley McLain via Mercedes 
 To: Mercedes Discussion List  
Cc: Curley McLain <126die...@gmail.com>
 Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:48 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Gnome 3 and Linux Desktop Managers
   
All reasons why I have not been comfortable moving to linux.  Lots of 
monkeying around under the hood in a language I don't know, and have 
little interest in learning.

> Craig via Mercedes <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> February 17, 2017 at 11:40 PM
> You may recall my abortive attempt last year to update to a new version
> of CentOS so I can run current versions of browsers. I just could not get
> Gnome 3 to work like Gnome 2 I have been using for years.
>
> I found some interesting comments about this situation at
>
> http://www.osnews.com/story/27160/What_s_Happening_with_User_Interfaces_
>
> It has an introduction to the situation, mentioning Windows 8 and other
> things and then says, among other things,
>
> GNOME 3 with the GNOME Shell
>
> When it was introduced in spring 2011, GNOME 3 abandoned the
> traditional desktop design of GNOME 2 in favor of the new GNOME Shell.
> The GNOME shell is superficially somewhat similar to Unity (though the
> two are diverging over time). Both present a new style of desktop
> interaction influenced by mobile devices. As with Unity, some liked
> the new GNOME desktop paradigm, but others didn't and it caused quite
> a controversy. Linus Torvalds famously criticized it and switched
> from GNOME 3 and its shell to Xfce. Then, as the product rapidly
> improved, he went back to GNOME. Tons of extensions and packages like
> the GNOME Tweak Tool smoothed the way. Computers that couldn't boot
> GNOME 3's new graphics ran a Fallback mode that was reminiscent of
> GNOME 2.
>
> GNOME 3.8 was announced in May. It includes a new Classic mode "...for
> those who prefer a more traditional desktop experience." Classic mode
> replaces Fallback mode. Through Classic mode, the GNOME team addresses
> those who dislike its new interface. The goal is to continue with the
> new desktop while keeping users who want a traditional system in the
> fold. My guess is that most will judge GNOME on the basis of its
> enhanced version 3 design, which today many like. Those who want a
> traditional UI have probably already left the GNOME Shell for
> alternatives. In any case, the GNOME project remains vitally important
> to the free software movement in its support of many dozen tools and
> applications.
>
> Maybe I should follow the comment, "Those who want a traditional UI have
> probably already left the GNOME Shell for alternatives."
>
> The article also says,
>
> Xfce, LXDE, and MATE
>
> With the drastic changes in some UIs, interfaces that have remained
> true to the traditional desktop metaphor have gained in popularity.
> Xfce, LXDE, and MATE innovate within the context of this
> long-established paradigm. Xfce is well polished and much faster than
> when I first tried it with Xubuntu several years ago. Today it really
> flies on my Mint systems. You can customize it by adding icons to its
> desktop or quick launch panel as easily as you can in Windows. LXDE
> features a highly-modular design with independent, plug-and-play
> components. Together with its fast apps, LXDE has become the
> lightweight default interface for several distros including Knoppix,
> Lubuntu, and Raspbian. MATE continues the GNOME 2 heritage and
> incrementally improves it with new features and themes. Several
> distros have adopted MATE instead of GNOME 3.
>
> Xfce, LXDE, and MATE will run on mature computers. The newer UIs
> require state-of-the-art graphics hardware. These include current
> releases of GNOME (with 3.8's elimination of Fallback mode), Ubuntu
> (with 12.10's dropping of Unity 2D), and Cinnamon (which requires 3D
> acceleration).
>
> So, it sounds like MATE might be a possibility ...
>
>
> Craig
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Gnome 3 and Linux Desktop Managers

[Ed Booher via Mercedes]

Eh. Don't worry about learning how to monkey under the hood. As far as
desktop is concerned, you don't *have* to. You just have to choose the
distribution that runs easiest for you. Personally, as far as desktop *NIX
is concerned, Elementary OS is maturing very fast. They are trying very
hard to be the Mac equivalent for Linux. Which means you are needing to
know less and less "under the hood" as they give you graphical
replacements. Which for a desktop is great. Keeping RHEL on my servers,
though.

EdB

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 6:48 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> All reasons why I have not been comfortable moving to linux.  Lots of
> monkeying around under the hood in a language I don't know, and have little
> interest in learning.
>
> Craig via Mercedes 
>> February 17, 2017 at 11:40 PM
>>
>> You may recall my abortive attempt last year to update to a new version
>> of CentOS so I can run current versions of browsers. I just could not get
>> Gnome 3 to work like Gnome 2 I have been using for years.
>>
>> I found some interesting comments about this situation at
>>
>> http://www.osnews.com/story/27160/What_s_Happening_with_User_Interfaces_
>>
>> It has an introduction to the situation, mentioning Windows 8 and other
>> things and then says, among other things,
>>
>> GNOME 3 with the GNOME Shell
>>
>> When it was introduced in spring 2011, GNOME 3 abandoned the
>> traditional desktop design of GNOME 2 in favor of the new GNOME Shell.
>> The GNOME shell is superficially somewhat similar to Unity (though the
>> two are diverging over time). Both present a new style of desktop
>> interaction influenced by mobile devices. As with Unity, some liked
>> the new GNOME desktop paradigm, but others didn't and it caused quite
>> a controversy. Linus Torvalds famously criticized it and switched
>> from GNOME 3 and its shell to Xfce. Then, as the product rapidly
>> improved, he went back to GNOME. Tons of extensions and packages like
>> the GNOME Tweak Tool smoothed the way. Computers that couldn't boot
>> GNOME 3's new graphics ran a Fallback mode that was reminiscent of
>> GNOME 2.
>>
>> GNOME 3.8 was announced in May. It includes a new Classic mode "...for
>> those who prefer a more traditional desktop experience." Classic mode
>> replaces Fallback mode. Through Classic mode, the GNOME team addresses
>> those who dislike its new interface. The goal is to continue with the
>> new desktop while keeping users who want a traditional system in the
>> fold. My guess is that most will judge GNOME on the basis of its
>> enhanced version 3 design, which today many like. Those who want a
>> traditional UI have probably already left the GNOME Shell for
>> alternatives. In any case, the GNOME project remains vitally important
>> to the free software movement in its support of many dozen tools and
>> applications.
>>
>> Maybe I should follow the comment, "Those who want a traditional UI have
>> probably already left the GNOME Shell for alternatives."
>>
>> The article also says,
>>
>> Xfce, LXDE, and MATE
>>
>> With the drastic changes in some UIs, interfaces that have remained
>> true to the traditional desktop metaphor have gained in popularity.
>> Xfce, LXDE, and MATE innovate within the context of this
>> long-established paradigm. Xfce is well polished and much faster than
>> when I first tried it with Xubuntu several years ago. Today it really
>> flies on my Mint systems. You can customize it by adding icons to its
>> desktop or quick launch panel as easily as you can in Windows. LXDE
>> features a highly-modular design with independent, plug-and-play
>> components. Together with its fast apps, LXDE has become the
>> lightweight default interface for several distros including Knoppix,
>> Lubuntu, and Raspbian. MATE continues the GNOME 2 heritage and
>> incrementally improves it with new features and themes. Several
>> distros have adopted MATE instead of GNOME 3.
>>
>> Xfce, LXDE, and MATE will run on mature computers. The newer UIs
>> require state-of-the-art graphics hardware. These include current
>> releases of GNOME (with 3.8's elimination of Fallback mode), Ubuntu
>> (with 12.10's dropping of Unity 2D), and Cinnamon (which requires 3D
>> acceleration).
>>
>> So, it sounds like MATE might be a possibility ...
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>
>>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Gnome 3 and Linux Desktop Managers

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

All reasons why I have not been comfortable moving to linux.  Lots of 
monkeying around under the hood in a language I don't know, and have 
little interest in learning.



Craig via Mercedes 
February 17, 2017 at 11:40 PM
You may recall my abortive attempt last year to update to a new version
of CentOS so I can run current versions of browsers. I just could not get
Gnome 3 to work like Gnome 2 I have been using for years.

I found some interesting comments about this situation at

http://www.osnews.com/story/27160/What_s_Happening_with_User_Interfaces_

It has an introduction to the situation, mentioning Windows 8 and other
things and then says, among other things,

GNOME 3 with the GNOME Shell

When it was introduced in spring 2011, GNOME 3 abandoned the
traditional desktop design of GNOME 2 in favor of the new GNOME Shell.
The GNOME shell is superficially somewhat similar to Unity (though the
two are diverging over time). Both present a new style of desktop
interaction influenced by mobile devices. As with Unity, some liked
the new GNOME desktop paradigm, but others didn't and it caused quite
a controversy. Linus Torvalds famously criticized it and switched
from GNOME 3 and its shell to Xfce. Then, as the product rapidly
improved, he went back to GNOME. Tons of extensions and packages like
the GNOME Tweak Tool smoothed the way. Computers that couldn't boot
GNOME 3's new graphics ran a Fallback mode that was reminiscent of
GNOME 2.

GNOME 3.8 was announced in May. It includes a new Classic mode "...for
those who prefer a more traditional desktop experience." Classic mode
replaces Fallback mode. Through Classic mode, the GNOME team addresses
those who dislike its new interface. The goal is to continue with the
new desktop while keeping users who want a traditional system in the
fold. My guess is that most will judge GNOME on the basis of its
enhanced version 3 design, which today many like. Those who want a
traditional UI have probably already left the GNOME Shell for
alternatives. In any case, the GNOME project remains vitally important
to the free software movement in its support of many dozen tools and
applications.

Maybe I should follow the comment, "Those who want a traditional UI have
probably already left the GNOME Shell for alternatives."

The article also says,

Xfce, LXDE, and MATE

With the drastic changes in some UIs, interfaces that have remained
true to the traditional desktop metaphor have gained in popularity.
Xfce, LXDE, and MATE innovate within the context of this
long-established paradigm. Xfce is well polished and much faster than
when I first tried it with Xubuntu several years ago. Today it really
flies on my Mint systems. You can customize it by adding icons to its
desktop or quick launch panel as easily as you can in Windows. LXDE
features a highly-modular design with independent, plug-and-play
components. Together with its fast apps, LXDE has become the
lightweight default interface for several distros including Knoppix,
Lubuntu, and Raspbian. MATE continues the GNOME 2 heritage and
incrementally improves it with new features and themes. Several
distros have adopted MATE instead of GNOME 3.

Xfce, LXDE, and MATE will run on mature computers. The newer UIs
require state-of-the-art graphics hardware. These include current
releases of GNOME (with 3.8's elimination of Fallback mode), Ubuntu
(with 12.10's dropping of Unity 2D), and Cinnamon (which requires 3D
acceleration).

So, it sounds like MATE might be a possibility ...


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Gnome 3 and Linux Desktop Managers

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 16:24:58 -0600 Mountain Man via Mercedes
 wrote:

> This sounds similar (sort of) to the situations in the linux running
> here - Manjaro which is a fork? of ArchLinux?  Doing stuff in linux
> escapes me so my son does the fiddling.  There seems to be some
> controversy about interface in Manjaro/Arch that sounds similar to
> this Gnome2 issue that you mention.  Here, resources were being
> mangled with multitudes of daemons that would not be shut down but had
> zero need to run.

In Red-Hat-derived distributions, one can run
/usr/bin/system-config-services and turn off unwanted services and
daemons.

I have done that with many things that my system thought it should run.


> It was mentioned that some lobbying for dbus being incorporated in to
> core?  eh, interest in this should be chased, but...

I haven't heard about that.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Gnome 3 and Linux Desktop Managers

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

Craig wrote:
> You may recall my abortive attempt last year to update to a new version
> of CentOS...

< SNIP>

> When it was introduced in spring 2011, GNOME 3 abandoned the
> traditional desktop design of GNOME 2 in favor of the new GNOME Shell.

This sounds similar (sort of) to the situations in the linux running
here - Manjaro which is a fork? of ArchLinux?  Doing stuff in linux
escapes me so my son does the fiddling.  There seems to be some
controversy about interface in Manjaro/Arch that sounds similar to
this Gnome2 issue that you mention.  Here, resources were being
mangled with multitudes of daemons that would not be shut down but had
zero need to run.  It was mentioned that some lobbying for dbus being
incorporated in to core?  eh, interest in this should be chased,
but...
tin-man

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[MBZ] OT: Gnome 3 and Linux Desktop Managers

[Craig via Mercedes]

You may recall my abortive attempt last year to update to a new version
of CentOS so I can run current versions of browsers. I just could not get
Gnome 3 to work like Gnome 2 I have been using for years.

I found some interesting comments about this situation at

http://www.osnews.com/story/27160/What_s_Happening_with_User_Interfaces_

It has an introduction to the situation, mentioning Windows 8 and other
things and then says, among other things,

GNOME 3 with the GNOME Shell

When it was introduced in spring 2011, GNOME 3 abandoned the
traditional desktop design of GNOME 2 in favor of the new GNOME Shell.
The GNOME shell is superficially somewhat similar to Unity (though the
two are diverging over time). Both present a new style of desktop
interaction influenced by mobile devices. As with Unity, some liked
the new GNOME desktop paradigm, but others didn't and it caused quite
a controversy. Linus Torvalds famously criticized it and switched
from GNOME 3 and its shell to Xfce. Then, as the product rapidly
improved, he went back to GNOME. Tons of extensions and packages like
the GNOME Tweak Tool smoothed the way. Computers that couldn't boot
GNOME 3's new graphics ran a Fallback mode that was reminiscent of
GNOME 2.

GNOME 3.8 was announced in May. It includes a new Classic mode "...for
those who prefer a more traditional desktop experience." Classic mode
replaces Fallback mode. Through Classic mode, the GNOME team addresses
those who dislike its new interface. The goal is to continue with the
new desktop while keeping users who want a traditional system in the
fold. My guess is that most will judge GNOME on the basis of its
enhanced version 3 design, which today many like. Those who want a
traditional UI have probably already left the GNOME Shell for
alternatives. In any case, the GNOME project remains vitally important
to the free software movement in its support of many dozen tools and
applications.

Maybe I should follow the comment, "Those who want a traditional UI have
probably already left the GNOME Shell for alternatives."

The article also says,

Xfce, LXDE, and MATE

With the drastic changes in some UIs, interfaces that have remained
true to the traditional desktop metaphor have gained in popularity.
Xfce, LXDE, and MATE innovate within the context of this
long-established paradigm. Xfce is well polished and much faster than
when I first tried it with Xubuntu several years ago. Today it really
flies on my Mint systems. You can customize it by adding icons to its
desktop or quick launch panel as easily as you can in Windows. LXDE
features a highly-modular design with independent, plug-and-play
components. Together with its fast apps, LXDE has become the
lightweight default interface for several distros including Knoppix,
Lubuntu, and Raspbian. MATE continues the GNOME 2 heritage and
incrementally improves it with new features and themes. Several
distros have adopted MATE instead of GNOME 3.

Xfce, LXDE, and MATE will run on mature computers. The newer UIs
require state-of-the-art graphics hardware. These include current
releases of GNOME (with 3.8's elimination of Fallback mode), Ubuntu
(with 12.10's dropping of Unity 2D), and Cinnamon (which requires 3D
acceleration).

So, it sounds like MATE might be a possibility ...


Craig

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