Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes]

Revelation! Our solar installations send the electricity we generate back to 
the grid. We can then buy that electricity to power our houses, right? So 
basically we are paying, out of pocket (by buying and installing a solar set up 
on our roofs) to supplement the electricity supply of the power plant, right? 
So the power company should therefore pay us for the installation and then pay 
us rent for the real estate they are occupying! 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 8:17 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> The term in the generator industry for utility power is “infinite buss”. 
> 
> 
> -D
> 
>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 4:55 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> "3. If you want to charge your EV with solar, your EV has to be in the same 
>> place as the solar during daylight hours, or you need extra batteries."
>> 
>> Use the grid as a battery, run the meter backwards during the day while the 
>> sun is shining, draw from the grid in the evening while charging the car. 
>> Why pay for a big ole' battery bank with a finite lifespan when the grid is 
>> just sitting around wanting your electricity?
>> 
>> -Curt
>> 
>> On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 07:01:32 PM EDT, mitch--- via Mercedes 
>>  wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 2022-07-14 18:47, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:
>>> Grant,
>>> 
>>> I feel like your arguments are not in good faith.
>>> 1. A Tesla model 3 starts at $45k, the Chevy bolt at less than $30k.
>>> Your car price is high by 50%.
>>> 2. Your PV price is 50% higher than Dimitri's overinflated price.
>>> 3. Batteries are not required and nobody with any sense wants them.
>> 
>> I agree in general that Grant's numbers are high, but:
>> 
>> 1. 2022 Chevy Bolt EV MSRP range: $31,000 - $34,200
>> They must be very unpopular if you can get one for $29,900 including 
>> destination. (I admit to being very surprised that they're $31k, the 
>> 2014 Spark started at something like $27k with less than 1/3 the battery 
>> capacity)
>> 
>> 3. If you want to charge your EV with solar, your EV has to be in the 
>> same place as the solar during daylight hours, or you need extra 
>> batteries.
>> 
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

The term in the generator industry for utility power is “infinite buss”. 

-D

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 4:55 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> "3. If you want to charge your EV with solar, your EV has to be in the same 
> place as the solar during daylight hours, or you need extra batteries."
> 
> Use the grid as a battery, run the meter backwards during the day while the 
> sun is shining, draw from the grid in the evening while charging the car. Why 
> pay for a big ole' battery bank with a finite lifespan when the grid is just 
> sitting around wanting your electricity?
> 
> -Curt
> 
> On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 07:01:32 PM EDT, mitch--- via Mercedes 
>  wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 2022-07-14 18:47, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:
>> Grant,
>> 
>> I feel like your arguments are not in good faith.
>> 1. A Tesla model 3 starts at $45k, the Chevy bolt at less than $30k.
>> Your car price is high by 50%.
>> 2. Your PV price is 50% higher than Dimitri's overinflated price.
>> 3. Batteries are not required and nobody with any sense wants them.
> 
> I agree in general that Grant's numbers are high, but:
> 
> 1. 2022 Chevy Bolt EV MSRP range: $31,000 - $34,200
> They must be very unpopular if you can get one for $29,900 including 
> destination. (I admit to being very surprised that they're $31k, the 
> 2014 Spark started at something like $27k with less than 1/3 the battery 
> capacity)
> 
> 3. If you want to charge your EV with solar, your EV has to be in the 
> same place as the solar during daylight hours, or you need extra 
> batteries.
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Oh and I forgot, the 2023 Bolt is cheaper than the 2022: 
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/chevy-slashes-prices-of-2023-bolt-making-it-the-cheapest-ev-in-america-210129059.html

-Curt


On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 07:01:32 PM EDT, mitch--- via Mercedes 
 wrote: 


On 2022-07-14 18:47, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:
> Grant,
> 
> I feel like your arguments are not in good faith.
> 1. A Tesla model 3 starts at $45k, the Chevy bolt at less than $30k.
> Your car price is high by 50%.
> 2. Your PV price is 50% higher than Dimitri's overinflated price.
> 3. Batteries are not required and nobody with any sense wants them.

I agree in general that Grant's numbers are high, but:

1. 2022 Chevy Bolt EV MSRP range: $31,000 - $34,200
They must be very unpopular if you can get one for $29,900 including 
destination. (I admit to being very surprised that they're $31k, the 
2014 Spark started at something like $27k with less than 1/3 the battery 
capacity)

3. If you want to charge your EV with solar, your EV has to be in the 
same place as the solar during daylight hours, or you need extra 
batteries.


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

"3. If you want to charge your EV with solar, your EV has to be in the same 
place as the solar during daylight hours, or you need extra batteries."

Use the grid as a battery, run the meter backwards during the day while the sun 
is shining, draw from the grid in the evening while charging the car. Why pay 
for a big ole' battery bank with a finite lifespan when the grid is just 
sitting around wanting your electricity?

 -Curt

On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 07:01:32 PM EDT, mitch--- via Mercedes 
 wrote: 





On 2022-07-14 18:47, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:
> Grant,
> 
> I feel like your arguments are not in good faith.
> 1. A Tesla model 3 starts at $45k, the Chevy bolt at less than $30k.
> Your car price is high by 50%.
> 2. Your PV price is 50% higher than Dimitri's overinflated price.
> 3. Batteries are not required and nobody with any sense wants them.

I agree in general that Grant's numbers are high, but:

1. 2022 Chevy Bolt EV MSRP range: $31,000 - $34,200
They must be very unpopular if you can get one for $29,900 including 
destination. (I admit to being very surprised that they're $31k, the 
2014 Spark started at something like $27k with less than 1/3 the battery 
capacity)

3. If you want to charge your EV with solar, your EV has to be in the 
same place as the solar during daylight hours, or you need extra 
batteries.


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[mitch--- via Mercedes]

On 2022-07-14 18:47, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:

Grant,

I feel like your arguments are not in good faith.
1. A Tesla model 3 starts at $45k, the Chevy bolt at less than $30k.
Your car price is high by 50%.
2. Your PV price is 50% higher than Dimitri's overinflated price.
3. Batteries are not required and nobody with any sense wants them.


I agree in general that Grant's numbers are high, but:

1. 2022 Chevy Bolt EV MSRP range: $31,000 - $34,200
They must be very unpopular if you can get one for $29,900 including 
destination. (I admit to being very surprised that they're $31k, the 
2014 Spark started at something like $27k with less than 1/3 the battery 
capacity)


3. If you want to charge your EV with solar, your EV has to be in the 
same place as the solar during daylight hours, or you need extra 
batteries.


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Grant,

I feel like your arguments are not in good faith. 
1. A Tesla model 3 starts at $45k, the Chevy bolt at less than $30k. Your car 
price is high by 50%.
2. Your PV price is 50% higher than Dimitri's overinflated price.
3. Batteries are not required and nobody with any sense wants them.

So your $105,000 is, much more reasonably $50,000. Or about the price of a new, 
base model, 3/4 ton pickup.

-Curt

 On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 05:07:28 PM EDT, G Mann via Mercedes 
 wrote: 

I have to question the simple math on that equation.
1. EV purchase... $60,000 plus
2. Solar installation to home to charge EV... another $45,000 +- [estimate].
3. Battery storage system to contain solar energy captured  another
$40,000.
Puts you into an investment of $105,000 [factored over the expected service
life of the EV.]
Versus:
1. Late model, or new gas or diesel powered car... [insert purchase price]
2. 10 years of $5.00 per gallon fuel [or number your choose]
The question comes... even without factoring in the cloudy days when the
solar system does not meet charging requirements... Which combination gives
me the better payback of miles for dollars...

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 8:15 AM Allan Streib via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I am suspicious of the payback equation as well, but that's also very
> dependent on government actions targeted at changing behaviors, e.g. such
> as extra tarrifs on "traditional" power or more new credits for solar. Not
> sure I'd want to predict the future on that.
>
> If you had an EV and could (mostly) charge it at home from Solar, I think
> that might be worth it, but I admit I have not run the numbers.
>
> I would not trust a big Li ion battery in my house, but might be OK with
> it at a fire-safe distance.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, at 12:54 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote:
> > I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a
> > site survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the
> > Flagstaff house. While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and
> > understand what’s involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out
> > there who has solar power at their home and if there are concerns or
> > issues you didn’t anticipate or things I should be aware of that might
> > not be obvious.
> >
> > I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ
> > is pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive.
> > I’m not convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be
> > something I’ll be closely scrutinizing.
> >
> > -D
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

>
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

A home-solar-charged EV might work very well for me,
as I don't go out at all most days.  A reasonably-sized panel,
over a period of days, could be expected to supply a decent
amount of energy.  So long as the EV had the range I might need
on any given day, it would all work.  If it was a little short on a day
I needed to go out, just plug it in and finish the charge that way.

On the other hand, a cheap old car is a cheap old car.  It costs
MUCH less than a big-ass solar panel, installation of same, and
a Tesla.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[G Mann via Mercedes]

I have to question the simple math on that equation.
1. EV purchase... $60,000 plus
2. Solar installation to home to charge EV... another $45,000 +- [estimate].
3. Battery storage system to contain solar energy captured  another
$40,000.
Puts you into an investment of $105,000 [factored over the expected service
life of the EV.]
Versus:
1. Late model, or new gas or diesel powered car... [insert purchase price]
2. 10 years of $5.00 per gallon fuel [or number your choose]
The question comes... even without factoring in the cloudy days when the
solar system does not meet charging requirements... Which combination gives
me the better payback of miles for dollars...

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 8:15 AM Allan Streib via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I am suspicious of the payback equation as well, but that's also very
> dependent on government actions targeted at changing behaviors, e.g. such
> as extra tarrifs on "traditional" power or more new credits for solar. Not
> sure I'd want to predict the future on that.
>
> If you had an EV and could (mostly) charge it at home from Solar, I think
> that might be worth it, but I admit I have not run the numbers.
>
> I would not trust a big Li ion battery in my house, but might be OK with
> it at a fire-safe distance.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, at 12:54 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote:
> > I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a
> > site survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the
> > Flagstaff house. While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and
> > understand what’s involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out
> > there who has solar power at their home and if there are concerns or
> > issues you didn’t anticipate or things I should be aware of that might
> > not be obvious.
> >
> > I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ
> > is pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive.
> > I’m not convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be
> > something I’ll be closely scrutinizing.
> >
> > -D
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Bob Rentfro via Mercedes]

TMI was THE watershed event in my industry. Back in the day all of the design 
was there, but the operators of that era weren’t diligent enough or clever 
enough to use it all correctly. There was little to no regulation. Distilled 
down, there were not many “thou shalts” in those days and the somewhat cavalier 
operators took full advantage of it. 
As a result of TMI, the nuclear industry evolved into what it is today; an 
uber-regulated industry (government regulated and self regulated) in which its 
participants are trained within an inch of their lives, are expected to perform 
their jobs 100%perfectly every single shift (because we are responsible for the 
public’s heath and safety), are held civilly libel if the horse something up. 
We have dissected the events at TMI to a nearly ridiculous degree. Nuclear 
power is better and safer because of TMI. Honestly, I feel 90% of what nuclear 
operators do shifty is a result of TMI. All of the preventive maintenance done 
on plant components, all of the surveillance testing done on plant components, 
all of the training, all of the monitoring…I could go on and on…are all a 
result of TMI. 

AZBob

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 10:11 AM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> If you watch the Netflix documentary on 3 Mile Island, one of the really 
> scary bits is when they talk about how they weren’t doing any monitoring 
> around the plant, so when there was a release of radioactive material into 
> the atmosphere they had no idea of how much or where it went. To this day 
> there is no understanding of how much or where the stuff went.
> 
> -D
> 
>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 9:58 AM, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Chernobyl definitely, they did not inform the operating engineers about the 
>> design defects in the reactor, because Soviet design was flawless.
>> 
>> 3 Mile Island I want to say was initiated by a problem with maintenance of a 
>> valve or something that wasn't handled properly or didn't have the proper 
>> failsafe design, but I can't really remember.
>> 
>> Fukushima was bad site design having the diesel backup power generation on 
>> low ground so it was vulnerable to tsunami.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2022, at 12:31 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes wrote:
>>> Those were all related to corruption I believe. I’m sure Az bob can 
>>> fill us in on how safe it is now days. 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Jul 14, 2022, at 11:30 AM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
  wrote:
 
 3 Mile Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima . . .
 
 
> On 14/07/2022 11:25 AM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes wrote:
> Wow, too bad they never built more of those. Might have helped with our 
> energy problems.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 11:24 AM, Jim Cathey  
>>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> Is that a lot?
>> That's 50% more than the Grand Coulee Dam puts out.  I would call that a 
>> lot.
>> I bet it's noticeably smaller, too!
>> 
>> -- Jim
>> 
> 
> 
 
 
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
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>>> 
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>> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

If you watch the Netflix documentary on 3 Mile Island, one of the really scary 
bits is when they talk about how they weren’t doing any monitoring around the 
plant, so when there was a release of radioactive material into the atmosphere 
they had no idea of how much or where it went. To this day there is no 
understanding of how much or where the stuff went.

-D

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 9:58 AM, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Chernobyl definitely, they did not inform the operating engineers about the 
> design defects in the reactor, because Soviet design was flawless.
> 
> 3 Mile Island I want to say was initiated by a problem with maintenance of a 
> valve or something that wasn't handled properly or didn't have the proper 
> failsafe design, but I can't really remember.
> 
> Fukushima was bad site design having the diesel backup power generation on 
> low ground so it was vulnerable to tsunami.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2022, at 12:31 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes wrote:
>> Those were all related to corruption I believe. I’m sure Az bob can 
>> fill us in on how safe it is now days. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 11:30 AM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 3 Mile Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima . . .
>>> 
>>> 
 On 14/07/2022 11:25 AM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes wrote:
 Wow, too bad they never built more of those. Might have helped with our 
 energy problems.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 11:24 AM, Jim Cathey  wrote:
> 
> 
>> Is that a lot?
> That's 50% more than the Grand Coulee Dam puts out.  I would call that a 
> lot.
> I bet it's noticeably smaller, too!
> 
> -- Jim
> 
 
 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
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>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

I worked at a McDonalds many years ago, and they had a system which took the 
waste heat from the ice makers and drink chillers and used it to preheat water 
for the water heater. This also took load off of the building A/C.


On Thu, Jul 14, 2022, at 12:37 PM, mitch--- via Mercedes wrote:
> On 2022-07-14 12:30, Jim Cathey via Mercedes wrote:
>> You really want gravy out of your power generation system,
>> find a way to use the waste heat.
>
> Water cooled PV panels, preheating domestic hot water...
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

Chernobyl definitely, they did not inform the operating engineers about the 
design defects in the reactor, because Soviet design was flawless.

3 Mile Island I want to say was initiated by a problem with maintenance of a 
valve or something that wasn't handled properly or didn't have the proper 
failsafe design, but I can't really remember.

Fukushima was bad site design having the diesel backup power generation on low 
ground so it was vulnerable to tsunami.


On Thu, Jul 14, 2022, at 12:31 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes wrote:
> Those were all related to corruption I believe. I’m sure Az bob can 
> fill us in on how safe it is now days. 
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 11:30 AM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 3 Mile Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima . . .
>> 
>> 
>>> On 14/07/2022 11:25 AM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes wrote:
>>> Wow, too bad they never built more of those. Might have helped with our 
>>> energy problems.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
> On Jul 14, 2022, at 11:24 AM, Jim Cathey  wrote:
 
 
> Is that a lot?
 That's 50% more than the Grand Coulee Dam puts out.  I would call that a 
 lot.
 I bet it's noticeably smaller, too!
 
 -- Jim
 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

It was, with the best episode being the third one, I thought.

The guy who was the whistleblower was awesome. Talk about someone who stuck to 
their guns.

-D

On Jul 14, 2022, at 9:38 AM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:

Yes, that was a good series.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 14, 2022, at 11:33 AM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:

Probably better that they didn’t, considering that they couldn’t do it without 
the contractors cutting corners. Look at France, they’ve got a boatload of the 
things operating for many decades without issues.

Watch episode three of this NetFlix documentary on Three Mile Island:

https://www.netflix.com/title/81198239

The guy who was the whistleblower makes a statement that pretty well sums it 
all up - “You can’t make nuclear power if there’s profits involved.” I’m 
paraphrasing him, but that pretty much sums it up.

-D



On Jul 14, 2022, at 9:25 AM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>>
 wrote:

Wow, too bad they never built more of those. Might have helped with our energy 
problems.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 14, 2022, at 11:24 AM, Jim Cathey 
mailto:jim.cathey...@gmail.com>>
 wrote:



Is that a lot?

That's 50% more than the Grand Coulee Dam puts out.  I would call that a lot.
I bet it's noticeably smaller, too!

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

Those were as 'accidental' as what would happen if you set
out a bucket full of loaded pistols at a playground.

But a lot more difficult to prevent, as big money and politics,
as well as ignorance and fear, were involved.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

Yes, that was a good series. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 11:33 AM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Probably better that they didn’t, considering that they couldn’t do it 
> without the contractors cutting corners. Look at France, they’ve got a 
> boatload of the things operating for many decades without issues.
> 
> Watch episode three of this NetFlix documentary on Three Mile Island:
> 
> https://www.netflix.com/title/81198239
> 
> The guy who was the whistleblower makes a statement that pretty well sums it 
> all up - “You can’t make nuclear power if there’s profits involved.” I’m 
> paraphrasing him, but that pretty much sums it up.
> 
> -D
> 
> 
> 
> On Jul 14, 2022, at 9:25 AM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
> mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
> 
> Wow, too bad they never built more of those. Might have helped with our 
> energy problems.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jul 14, 2022, at 11:24 AM, Jim Cathey 
> mailto:jim.cathey...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that a lot?
> 
> That's 50% more than the Grand Coulee Dam puts out.  I would call that a lot.
> I bet it's noticeably smaller, too!
> 
> -- Jim
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[mitch--- via Mercedes]

On 2022-07-14 12:30, Jim Cathey via Mercedes wrote:

You really want gravy out of your power generation system,
find a way to use the waste heat.


Water cooled PV panels, preheating domestic hot water...

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

In all cases accidents that could have been/should have been avoided.

-Curt




On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 12:30:04 PM EDT, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
 wrote: 





3 Mile Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima . . .


On 14/07/2022 11:25 AM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes wrote:
> Wow, too bad they never built more of those. Might have helped with our 
> energy problems.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 11:24 AM, Jim Cathey  wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> Is that a lot?
>> That's 50% more than the Grand Coulee Dam puts out.  I would call that a lot.
>> I bet it's noticeably smaller, too!
>>
>> -- Jim
>>
>
>


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

Probably better that they didn’t, considering that they couldn’t do it without 
the contractors cutting corners. Look at France, they’ve got a boatload of the 
things operating for many decades without issues.

Watch episode three of this NetFlix documentary on Three Mile Island:

https://www.netflix.com/title/81198239

The guy who was the whistleblower makes a statement that pretty well sums it 
all up - “You can’t make nuclear power if there’s profits involved.” I’m 
paraphrasing him, but that pretty much sums it up.

-D



On Jul 14, 2022, at 9:25 AM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:

Wow, too bad they never built more of those. Might have helped with our energy 
problems.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 14, 2022, at 11:24 AM, Jim Cathey 
mailto:jim.cathey...@gmail.com>> wrote:



Is that a lot?

That's 50% more than the Grand Coulee Dam puts out.  I would call that a lot.
I bet it's noticeably smaller, too!

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> 3 Mile Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima . . .

All bad designs, sited/built/run by idiots.  NONE of those 'accidents'
had any legitimate excuse for happening.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

Those were all related to corruption I believe. I’m sure Az bob can fill us in 
on how safe it is now days. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 11:30 AM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 3 Mile Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima . . .
> 
> 
>> On 14/07/2022 11:25 AM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes wrote:
>> Wow, too bad they never built more of those. Might have helped with our 
>> energy problems.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
 On Jul 14, 2022, at 11:24 AM, Jim Cathey  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 Is that a lot?
>>> That's 50% more than the Grand Coulee Dam puts out.  I would call that a 
>>> lot.
>>> I bet it's noticeably smaller, too!
>>> 
>>> -- Jim
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

You really want gravy out of your power generation system,
find a way to use the waste heat.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

3 Mile Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima . . .


On 14/07/2022 11:25 AM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes wrote:

Wow, too bad they never built more of those. Might have helped with our energy 
problems.

Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 14, 2022, at 11:24 AM, Jim Cathey  wrote:



Is that a lot?

That's 50% more than the Grand Coulee Dam puts out.  I would call that a lot.
I bet it's noticeably smaller, too!

-- Jim







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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 14/07/2022 11:23 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes wrote:

Is that a lot?

That's 50% more than the Grand Coulee Dam puts out.  I would call that a lot.
I bet it's noticeably smaller, too!

-- Jim



And hotter too.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

Wow, too bad they never built more of those. Might have helped with our energy 
problems. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 11:24 AM, Jim Cathey  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> Is that a lot?
> 
> That's 50% more than the Grand Coulee Dam puts out.  I would call that a lot.
> I bet it's noticeably smaller, too!
> 
> -- Jim
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> Is that a lot?

That's 50% more than the Grand Coulee Dam puts out.  I would call that a lot.
I bet it's noticeably smaller, too!

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

Is that a lot?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 11:20 AM, Bob Rentfro via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> My old nuke plant generates about 33.7 million megawatt hours annually. 
> 
> AZBob
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 9:05 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> $0.05kwh is really, really low. We pay $0.10kwh which is apparently just 
>>> below average: https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/ 
>>> 
>> 
>> Fun Facts:
>> 
>> The Grand Coulee Dam on Washington's Columbia River is the largest power 
>> plant by generation capacity in the United States, and the seventh-largest 
>> hydropower plant in the world. It typically supplies about 21 million 
>> megawatthours of electricity annually to eight western states and parts of 
>> Canada.
>> Washington generated more electricity from hydropower than any other state 
>> and accounted for 27% of the nation's total utility-scale hydroelectric 
>> generation in 2020.
>> Our (rural) utility co-op is supplied almost entirely by the BPA, which is 
>> the hydro operator
>> on the Columbia River.  Long-term contracts are in place.
>> 
>> -- JIM
>> 
>> ___
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>> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Bob Rentfro via Mercedes]

My old nuke plant generates about 33.7 million megawatt hours annually. 

AZBob

Sent from my iPad

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 9:05 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> $0.05kwh is really, really low. We pay $0.10kwh which is apparently just 
>> below average: https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/ 
>> 
> 
> Fun Facts:
> 
> The Grand Coulee Dam on Washington's Columbia River is the largest power 
> plant by generation capacity in the United States, and the seventh-largest 
> hydropower plant in the world. It typically supplies about 21 million 
> megawatthours of electricity annually to eight western states and parts of 
> Canada.
> Washington generated more electricity from hydropower than any other state 
> and accounted for 27% of the nation's total utility-scale hydroelectric 
> generation in 2020.
> Our (rural) utility co-op is supplied almost entirely by the BPA, which is 
> the hydro operator
> on the Columbia River.  Long-term contracts are in place.
> 
> -- JIM
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> $0.05kwh is really, really low. We pay $0.10kwh which is apparently just 
> below average: https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/ 
> 

Fun Facts:

The Grand Coulee Dam on Washington's Columbia River is the largest power plant 
by generation capacity in the United States, and the seventh-largest hydropower 
plant in the world. It typically supplies about 21 million megawatthours of 
electricity annually to eight western states and parts of Canada.
Washington generated more electricity from hydropower than any other state and 
accounted for 27% of the nation's total utility-scale hydroelectric generation 
in 2020.
Our (rural) utility co-op is supplied almost entirely by the BPA, which is the 
hydro operator
on the Columbia River.  Long-term contracts are in place.

-- JIM

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

$0.05kwh is really, really low. We pay $0.10kwh which is apparently just below 
average: https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/

That isn't the total cost of electricity. Where I live anyway, our cost of 
transmission etc is based on usage so total cost would be higher.

Solar is usually based on 4 hours of sun a day.

-Curt


On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 11:35:56 AM EDT, Jim Cathey 
 wrote: 


At $1/W, and $0.055/kWH, it'd take me 1000/0.055 sunny hours to pay off.
Roughly 10 years, assuming 5 hours of sun per day, averaged year-round.

But maybe my napkin is leaky.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

Looks similar, with the power supply rates in place but transmission costs not 
included.

That’s fair.

-D

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 8:40 AM, mitch--- via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> On 2022-07-14 11:27, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote:
>> That’s a concern if it was for the Florida house. As I mentioned
>> earlier, we came very close to having net metering legislated away,
>> which would have completely eliminated any payback to speak of.
>> Fortunately, AZ is pretty level headed about solar from a legislative
>> standpoint.
> 
> Michigan replaced their net metering law with a distributed power law in 
> 2016. That took a while to work its way through the public service commission 
> and electric rate approvals, but Consumers Energy was able to finally stop 
> taking net metering applications in the fall of 2020.
> 
> But it looks like it's still pretty similar to net metering for residential 
> systems under 20kW.
> https://www.consumersenergy.com/residential/renewable-energy/distributed-generation
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[mitch--- via Mercedes]

On 2022-07-14 11:35, Jim Cathey via Mercedes wrote:
At $1/W, and $0.055/kWH, it'd take me 1000/0.055 sunny hours to pay 
off.

Roughly 10 years, assuming 5 hours of sun per day, averaged year-round.

But maybe my napkin is leaky.


I think the map had me at close to 4w/day/rated watt, annual average 
here in Michigan. That's just with sunlight and clouds, not counting any 
trees or other land based shading.


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[mitch--- via Mercedes]

On 2022-07-14 11:27, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote:

That’s a concern if it was for the Florida house. As I mentioned
earlier, we came very close to having net metering legislated away,
which would have completely eliminated any payback to speak of.

Fortunately, AZ is pretty level headed about solar from a legislative
standpoint.


Michigan replaced their net metering law with a distributed power law in 
2016. That took a while to work its way through the public service 
commission and electric rate approvals, but Consumers Energy was able to 
finally stop taking net metering applications in the fall of 2020.


But it looks like it's still pretty similar to net metering for 
residential systems under 20kW.

https://www.consumersenergy.com/residential/renewable-energy/distributed-generation

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

At $1/W, and $0.055/kWH, it'd take me 1000/0.055 sunny hours to pay off.
Roughly 10 years, assuming 5 hours of sun per day, averaged year-round.

But maybe my napkin is leaky.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

That’s a concern if it was for the Florida house. As I mentioned earlier, we 
came very close to having net metering legislated away, which would have 
completely eliminated any payback to speak of.

Fortunately, AZ is pretty level headed about solar from a legislative 
standpoint.

-D

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 8:14 AM, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I am suspicious of the payback equation as well, but that's also very 
> dependent on government actions targeted at changing behaviors, e.g. such as 
> extra tarrifs on "traditional" power or more new credits for solar. Not sure 
> I'd want to predict the future on that.
> 
> If you had an EV and could (mostly) charge it at home from Solar, I think 
> that might be worth it, but I admit I have not run the numbers.
> 
> I would not trust a big Li ion battery in my house, but might be OK with it 
> at a fire-safe distance.
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, at 12:54 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote:
>> I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a 
>> site survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the 
>> Flagstaff house. While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and 
>> understand what’s involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out 
>> there who has solar power at their home and if there are concerns or 
>> issues you didn’t anticipate or things I should be aware of that might 
>> not be obvious.
>> 
>> I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ 
>> is pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive. 
>> I’m not convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be 
>> something I’ll be closely scrutinizing.
>> 
>> -D
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

You also have to consider if the price of electricity is going to stay stable. 
It seems unlikely to me that the price of all other types of energy would 
continue to rise but electricity would not. Maine saw electricity prices nearly 
double last year. Of course their power was priced unreasonably low ($0.06kwh) 
before...

OTOH one needs to consider if the price of solar will continue to fall. In the 
last 20 years prices have cut nearly in half, will they cut in half again in 20 
years? I doubt it but I expect to see prices continue to trickle down at least 
a little more.

-Curt


On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 11:15:36 AM EDT, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
 wrote: 


I am suspicious of the payback equation as well, but that's also very dependent 
on government actions targeted at changing behaviors, e.g. such as extra 
tarrifs on "traditional" power or more new credits for solar. Not sure I'd want 
to predict the future on that.

If you had an EV and could (mostly) charge it at home from Solar, I think that 
might be worth it, but I admit I have not run the numbers.

I would not trust a big Li ion battery in my house, but might be OK with it at 
a fire-safe distance.


On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, at 12:54 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote:
> I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a 
> site survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the 
> Flagstaff house. While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and 
> understand what’s involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out 
> there who has solar power at their home and if there are concerns or 
> issues you didn’t anticipate or things I should be aware of that might 
> not be obvious.
>
> I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ 
> is pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive. 
> I’m not convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be 
> something I’ll be closely scrutinizing.
>
> -D
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

Yeah unless maybe it's more expensive to get the panels mounted in a 
hurricane-safe way. You don't want big sheets of glass flying around in 90mph 
winds.


On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, at 1:02 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes wrote:
> You would think solar would be a huge deal in FL. 
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jul 13, 2022, at 11:55 AM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a site 
>> survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the Flagstaff house. 
>> While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and understand what’s 
>> involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out there who has solar power 
>> at their home and if there are concerns or issues you didn’t anticipate or 
>> things I should be aware of that might not be obvious.
>> 
>> I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ is 
>> pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive. I’m not 
>> convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be something I’ll 
>> be closely scrutinizing.
>> 
>> -D
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

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To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

I am suspicious of the payback equation as well, but that's also very dependent 
on government actions targeted at changing behaviors, e.g. such as extra 
tarrifs on "traditional" power or more new credits for solar. Not sure I'd want 
to predict the future on that.

If you had an EV and could (mostly) charge it at home from Solar, I think that 
might be worth it, but I admit I have not run the numbers.

I would not trust a big Li ion battery in my house, but might be OK with it at 
a fire-safe distance.


On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, at 12:54 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote:
> I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a 
> site survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the 
> Flagstaff house. While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and 
> understand what’s involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out 
> there who has solar power at their home and if there are concerns or 
> issues you didn’t anticipate or things I should be aware of that might 
> not be obvious.
>
> I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ 
> is pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive. 
> I’m not convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be 
> something I’ll be closely scrutinizing.
>
> -D
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[mitch--- via Mercedes]

The specified inverter on Dmitri's quote is worth about $2700 online, 
and is meant to be used with individual panel optimizers (about $75-100 
per panel) so that shading one panel does not affect the rest of the 
array.


So there is considerable cost in the electronics, and it's a premium 
setup.
I'm not sure what the advantage is over microinverters, which is another 
expensive and high efficiency way of doing things.


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Remember that we're talking mid-coast Maine it's a hot housing market for the 
up and coming of the state. I expect this solar outfit is mostly used to taking 
money off of people who don't know how to reset their circuit breakers...

-Curt


On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 10:18:07 AM EDT, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
 wrote: 





That’s one of the reasons to use or form a co-op. With a co-op you have the 
power of multiple purchasers and you actively solicit the best service provider 
to get the best deal from the most capable contractor.

Without shopping this stuff you’re bound to get reamed. It would be interesting 
to see what their price is like if they knew there was competition.

-D

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 7:11 AM, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Sent it again with higher resolution.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 10:10 AM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 10:09 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Almost illegibly blurry.
>>> 
>>> Looks like about $2/w. Either they're taking a helluva markup on the panels 
>>> or their labor charge is huge. The people across the street from me have a 
>>> similarly sized system, 3 guys installed it over 2 days in a snowstorm...
>>> 
>>> You could easily do all the panel installation and basic cabling yourself, 
>>> then get an electrician to do the inverter and grid intertie. I'm pretty 
>>> sure that last step will require an electrician. You ought to be able to 
>>> come in around 1/3 of their price before incentives.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Curt
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 10:04:33 AM EDT, Dimitri Seretakis 
>>>  wrote: 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Perhaps but still completely unaffordable and I’m not an impoverished 
>>> chump. Look at the attached quotes. These quotes do not include any 
>>> batteries. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
> On Jul 14, 2022, at 9:38 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
 
 The price of panels has come down a bunch in the last 10 years. 20 years 
 ago you were looking at $2/w, now you're under $1/w, in some cases way 
 under.
 
 -Curt
 
> On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 09:09:54 AM EDT, Dimitri Seretakis via 
> Mercedes  wrote: 
 
 
 And if you don’t use what you send back to the grid within one year, 
 Central Maine Power just keeps it, further increasing payback time. It’s a 
 sham on all fronts apparently. One can argue that the indefinite payback 
 time is unimportant because you are doing the right thing for the 
 environment but who can afford to install these things in the first place? 
 Seems to me like it’s mostly rich elites living in their utopias.  I’m not 
 hurting financially and these things are out of my grasp as is $5 home 
 heating oil.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
>> On Jul 13, 2022, at 10:06 PM, Dwight Giles  
>> wrote:
> 
> 
> yes we had solar assessment 20 years ago & payback time was beyond our 
> natural lives 
> 
> also heard on fire scanner that solar panels prevented firefighters to 
> vent a fire through the roof.
> 
>>> On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 4:20 PM Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>> I had a solar contractor come over and take a look at my place in Maine. 
>> The cheapest system with battery back up which would have met my needs 
>> would have cost 40K. He also told me that even though the panels would 
>> be facing south, I would never recoup my investment due to a few trees 
>> which were partially in the way. He downright refused to do the job 
>> unless I took down the centuries old pine trees some of which were not 
>> even on my property. Isn’t it contradictory to the green movement to cut 
>> down trees? Either way I didn’t care because I didn’t have 40 K for 
>> solar panels.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jul 13, 2022, at 12:55 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a 
>>> site survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the 
>>> Flagstaff house. While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and 
>>> understand what’s involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out 
>>> there who has solar power at their home and if there are concerns or 
>>> issues you didn’t anticipate or things I should be aware of that might 
>>> not be obvious.
>>> 
>>> I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ 
>>> is pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive. 
>>> I’m not convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be 
>>> something I’ll be closely scrutinizing.
>>> 
>>> -D
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To 

Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[mitch--- via Mercedes]

On 2022-07-14 10:04, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes wrote:

Perhaps but still completely unaffordable and I’m not an impoverished
chump. Look at the attached quotes. These quotes do not include any
batteries.



$33k for an 11kW system seems steep.
Also probably bigger than necessary.

Anyway, 1mx2m 390W panels are under $300ea.
If you figure a dollar a Watt for mounts, wiring, and inverter, and 
throw in a few thousand for labor...


https://www.ebay.com/itm/115153159608
https://a1solarstore.com/tsm-390deg15hc.20-ii-portrait-portrait-cables-wholesale.html

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Batteries are for chumps, stop talking about batteries.

I started to run the math on payback but then got to thinking, how much power 
do you actually use? The small system they spec'd, even with your trees, is 
expected to produce around 532KWh a month. That's +75% what Angie and I use in 
all but the hottest and coldest part of the year at which point it's still 
+50%...

The off grid community has a saying "A dollar spend on conservation is $5 save 
in generation" meaning it's makes more sense to cut usage than increase 
generation. 10 years ago it was $1-$10 but panels have gotten cheaper. I've 
seen this myself at camp, I've been able to keep us in quite a small solar 
array by trimming our loads.

 -Curt

On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 10:15:39 AM EDT, Dimitri Seretakis 
 wrote: 





Add batteries and the quote jumps to 40-50K and there is no payback in sight. 
In addition to not being impoverished, I’m also not an idiot. The greenie 
weenies can shove all their fake green elitist crap where the sun don’t shine.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 10:11 AM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
> 
> Sent it again with higher resolution.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 10:10 AM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
 On Jul 14, 2022, at 10:09 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Almost illegibly blurry.
>>> 
>>> Looks like about $2/w. Either they're taking a helluva markup on the panels 
>>> or their labor charge is huge. The people across the street from me have a 
>>> similarly sized system, 3 guys installed it over 2 days in a snowstorm...
>>> 
>>> You could easily do all the panel installation and basic cabling yourself, 
>>> then get an electrician to do the inverter and grid intertie. I'm pretty 
>>> sure that last step will require an electrician. You ought to be able to 
>>> come in around 1/3 of their price before incentives.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Curt
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 10:04:33 AM EDT, Dimitri Seretakis 
  wrote: 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Perhaps but still completely unaffordable and I’m not an impoverished 
>>> chump. Look at the attached quotes. These quotes do not include any 
>>> batteries. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
> On Jul 14, 2022, at 9:38 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
 
 The price of panels has come down a bunch in the last 10 years. 20 years 
 ago you were looking at $2/w, now you're under $1/w, in some cases way 
 under.
 
 -Curt
 
> On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 09:09:54 AM EDT, Dimitri Seretakis via 
> Mercedes  wrote: 
 
 
 And if you don’t use what you send back to the grid within one year, 
 Central Maine Power just keeps it, further increasing payback time. It’s a 
 sham on all fronts apparently. One can argue that the indefinite payback 
 time is unimportant because you are doing the right thing for the 
 environment but who can afford to install these things in the first place? 
 Seems to me like it’s mostly rich elites living in their utopias.  I’m not 
 hurting financially and these things are out of my grasp as is $5 home 
 heating oil.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
>> On Jul 13, 2022, at 10:06 PM, Dwight Giles  
>> wrote:
> 
> 
> yes we had solar assessment 20 years ago & payback time was beyond our 
> natural lives 
> 
> also heard on fire scanner that solar panels prevented firefighters to 
> vent a fire through the roof.
> 
>>> On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 4:20 PM Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>> I had a solar contractor come over and take a look at my place in Maine. 
>> The cheapest system with battery back up which would have met my needs 
>> would have cost 40K. He also told me that even though the panels would 
>> be facing south, I would never recoup my investment due to a few trees 
>> which were partially in the way. He downright refused to do the job 
>> unless I took down the centuries old pine trees some of which were not 
>> even on my property. Isn’t it contradictory to the green movement to cut 
>> down trees? Either way I didn’t care because I didn’t have 40 K for 
>> solar panels.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jul 13, 2022, at 12:55 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a 
>>> site survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the 
>>> Flagstaff house. While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and 
>>> understand what’s involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out 
>>> there who has solar power at their home and if there are concerns or 
>>> issues you didn’t anticipate or things I should be aware of that might 
>>> not be obvious.
>>> 
>>> I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. 

Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

That’s one of the reasons to use or form a co-op. With a co-op you have the 
power of multiple purchasers and you actively solicit the best service provider 
to get the best deal from the most capable contractor.

Without shopping this stuff you’re bound to get reamed. It would be interesting 
to see what their price is like if they knew there was competition.

-D

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 7:11 AM, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Sent it again with higher resolution.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 10:10 AM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 10:09 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Almost illegibly blurry.
>>> 
>>> Looks like about $2/w. Either they're taking a helluva markup on the panels 
>>> or their labor charge is huge. The people across the street from me have a 
>>> similarly sized system, 3 guys installed it over 2 days in a snowstorm...
>>> 
>>> You could easily do all the panel installation and basic cabling yourself, 
>>> then get an electrician to do the inverter and grid intertie. I'm pretty 
>>> sure that last step will require an electrician. You ought to be able to 
>>> come in around 1/3 of their price before incentives.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Curt
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 10:04:33 AM EDT, Dimitri Seretakis 
>>>  wrote: 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Perhaps but still completely unaffordable and I’m not an impoverished 
>>> chump. Look at the attached quotes. These quotes do not include any 
>>> batteries. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
> On Jul 14, 2022, at 9:38 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
 
 The price of panels has come down a bunch in the last 10 years. 20 years 
 ago you were looking at $2/w, now you're under $1/w, in some cases way 
 under.
 
 -Curt
 
> On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 09:09:54 AM EDT, Dimitri Seretakis via 
> Mercedes  wrote: 
 
 
 And if you don’t use what you send back to the grid within one year, 
 Central Maine Power just keeps it, further increasing payback time. It’s a 
 sham on all fronts apparently. One can argue that the indefinite payback 
 time is unimportant because you are doing the right thing for the 
 environment but who can afford to install these things in the first place? 
 Seems to me like it’s mostly rich elites living in their utopias.  I’m not 
 hurting financially and these things are out of my grasp as is $5 home 
 heating oil.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
>> On Jul 13, 2022, at 10:06 PM, Dwight Giles  
>> wrote:
> 
> 
> yes we had solar assessment 20 years ago & payback time was beyond our 
> natural lives 
> 
> also heard on fire scanner that solar panels prevented firefighters to 
> vent a fire through the roof.
> 
>>> On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 4:20 PM Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>> I had a solar contractor come over and take a look at my place in Maine. 
>> The cheapest system with battery back up which would have met my needs 
>> would have cost 40K. He also told me that even though the panels would 
>> be facing south, I would never recoup my investment due to a few trees 
>> which were partially in the way. He downright refused to do the job 
>> unless I took down the centuries old pine trees some of which were not 
>> even on my property. Isn’t it contradictory to the green movement to cut 
>> down trees? Either way I didn’t care because I didn’t have 40 K for 
>> solar panels.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jul 13, 2022, at 12:55 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a 
>>> site survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the 
>>> Flagstaff house. While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and 
>>> understand what’s involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out 
>>> there who has solar power at their home and if there are concerns or 
>>> issues you didn’t anticipate or things I should be aware of that might 
>>> not be obvious.
>>> 
>>> I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ 
>>> is pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive. 
>>> I’m not convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be 
>>> something I’ll be closely scrutinizing.
>>> 
>>> -D
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives 

Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes]

Add batteries and the quote jumps to 40-50K and there is no payback in sight. 
In addition to not being impoverished, I’m also not an idiot. The greenie 
weenies can shove all their fake green elitist crap where the sun don’t shine.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 10:11 AM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
> 
> Sent it again with higher resolution.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 10:10 AM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
 On Jul 14, 2022, at 10:09 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Almost illegibly blurry.
>>> 
>>> Looks like about $2/w. Either they're taking a helluva markup on the panels 
>>> or their labor charge is huge. The people across the street from me have a 
>>> similarly sized system, 3 guys installed it over 2 days in a snowstorm...
>>> 
>>> You could easily do all the panel installation and basic cabling yourself, 
>>> then get an electrician to do the inverter and grid intertie. I'm pretty 
>>> sure that last step will require an electrician. You ought to be able to 
>>> come in around 1/3 of their price before incentives.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Curt
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 10:04:33 AM EDT, Dimitri Seretakis 
  wrote: 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Perhaps but still completely unaffordable and I’m not an impoverished 
>>> chump. Look at the attached quotes. These quotes do not include any 
>>> batteries. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
> On Jul 14, 2022, at 9:38 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
 
 The price of panels has come down a bunch in the last 10 years. 20 years 
 ago you were looking at $2/w, now you're under $1/w, in some cases way 
 under.
 
 -Curt
 
> On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 09:09:54 AM EDT, Dimitri Seretakis via 
> Mercedes  wrote: 
 
 
 And if you don’t use what you send back to the grid within one year, 
 Central Maine Power just keeps it, further increasing payback time. It’s a 
 sham on all fronts apparently. One can argue that the indefinite payback 
 time is unimportant because you are doing the right thing for the 
 environment but who can afford to install these things in the first place? 
 Seems to me like it’s mostly rich elites living in their utopias.  I’m not 
 hurting financially and these things are out of my grasp as is $5 home 
 heating oil.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
>> On Jul 13, 2022, at 10:06 PM, Dwight Giles  
>> wrote:
> 
> 
> yes we had solar assessment 20 years ago & payback time was beyond our 
> natural lives 
> 
> also heard on fire scanner that solar panels prevented firefighters to 
> vent a fire through the roof.
> 
>>> On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 4:20 PM Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>> I had a solar contractor come over and take a look at my place in Maine. 
>> The cheapest system with battery back up which would have met my needs 
>> would have cost 40K. He also told me that even though the panels would 
>> be facing south, I would never recoup my investment due to a few trees 
>> which were partially in the way. He downright refused to do the job 
>> unless I took down the centuries old pine trees some of which were not 
>> even on my property. Isn’t it contradictory to the green movement to cut 
>> down trees? Either way I didn’t care because I didn’t have 40 K for 
>> solar panels.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jul 13, 2022, at 12:55 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a 
>>> site survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the 
>>> Flagstaff house. While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and 
>>> understand what’s involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out 
>>> there who has solar power at their home and if there are concerns or 
>>> issues you didn’t anticipate or things I should be aware of that might 
>>> not be obvious.
>>> 
>>> I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ 
>>> is pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive. 
>>> I’m not convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be 
>>> something I’ll be closely scrutinizing.
>>> 
>>> -D
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> 

Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes]

Sent it again with higher resolution.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 10:10 AM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 10:09 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
>> 
>> Almost illegibly blurry.
>> 
>> Looks like about $2/w. Either they're taking a helluva markup on the panels 
>> or their labor charge is huge. The people across the street from me have a 
>> similarly sized system, 3 guys installed it over 2 days in a snowstorm...
>> 
>> You could easily do all the panel installation and basic cabling yourself, 
>> then get an electrician to do the inverter and grid intertie. I'm pretty 
>> sure that last step will require an electrician. You ought to be able to 
>> come in around 1/3 of their price before incentives.
>> 
>> 
>> -Curt
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 10:04:33 AM EDT, Dimitri Seretakis 
>>  wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Perhaps but still completely unaffordable and I’m not an impoverished chump. 
>> Look at the attached quotes. These quotes do not include any batteries. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
 On Jul 14, 2022, at 9:38 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
>>> 
>>> The price of panels has come down a bunch in the last 10 years. 20 years 
>>> ago you were looking at $2/w, now you're under $1/w, in some cases way 
>>> under.
>>> 
>>> -Curt
>>> 
 On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 09:09:54 AM EDT, Dimitri Seretakis via 
 Mercedes  wrote: 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> And if you don’t use what you send back to the grid within one year, 
>>> Central Maine Power just keeps it, further increasing payback time. It’s a 
>>> sham on all fronts apparently. One can argue that the indefinite payback 
>>> time is unimportant because you are doing the right thing for the 
>>> environment but who can afford to install these things in the first place? 
>>> Seems to me like it’s mostly rich elites living in their utopias.  I’m not 
>>> hurting financially and these things are out of my grasp as is $5 home 
>>> heating oil.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
> On Jul 13, 2022, at 10:06 PM, Dwight Giles  wrote:
 
 
 yes we had solar assessment 20 years ago & payback time was beyond our 
 natural lives 
 
 also heard on fire scanner that solar panels prevented firefighters to 
 vent a fire through the roof.
 
>> On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 4:20 PM Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
> I had a solar contractor come over and take a look at my place in Maine. 
> The cheapest system with battery back up which would have met my needs 
> would have cost 40K. He also told me that even though the panels would be 
> facing south, I would never recoup my investment due to a few trees which 
> were partially in the way. He downright refused to do the job unless I 
> took down the centuries old pine trees some of which were not even on my 
> property. Isn’t it contradictory to the green movement to cut down trees? 
> Either way I didn’t care because I didn’t have 40 K for solar panels.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 13, 2022, at 12:55 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a 
>> site survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the Flagstaff 
>> house. While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and understand 
>> what’s involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out there who has 
>> solar power at their home and if there are concerns or issues you didn’t 
>> anticipate or things I should be aware of that might not be obvious.
>> 
>> I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ is 
>> pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive. I’m 
>> not convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be 
>> something I’ll be closely scrutinizing.
>> 
>> -D
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
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>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Almost illegibly blurry.

Looks like about $2/w. Either they're taking a helluva markup on the panels or 
their labor charge is huge. The people across the street from me have a 
similarly sized system, 3 guys installed it over 2 days in a snowstorm...

You could easily do all the panel installation and basic cabling yourself, then 
get an electrician to do the inverter and grid intertie. I'm pretty sure that 
last step will require an electrician. You ought to be able to come in around 
1/3 of their price before incentives.


-Curt



On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 10:04:33 AM EDT, Dimitri Seretakis 
 wrote: 





Perhaps but still completely unaffordable and I’m not an impoverished chump. 
Look at the attached quotes. These quotes do not include any batteries. 




Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 9:38 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
> 
> The price of panels has come down a bunch in the last 10 years. 20 years ago 
> you were looking at $2/w, now you're under $1/w, in some cases way under.
> 
> -Curt
> 
> On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 09:09:54 AM EDT, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
>  wrote: 
> 
> 
> And if you don’t use what you send back to the grid within one year, Central 
> Maine Power just keeps it, further increasing payback time. It’s a sham on 
> all fronts apparently. One can argue that the indefinite payback time is 
> unimportant because you are doing the right thing for the environment but who 
> can afford to install these things in the first place? Seems to me like it’s 
> mostly rich elites living in their utopias.  I’m not hurting financially and 
> these things are out of my grasp as is $5 home heating oil.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 13, 2022, at 10:06 PM, Dwight Giles  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> yes we had solar assessment 20 years ago & payback time was beyond our 
>> natural lives 
>> 
>> also heard on fire scanner that solar panels prevented firefighters to vent 
>> a fire through the roof.
>> 
 On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 4:20 PM Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
  wrote:
>>> I had a solar contractor come over and take a look at my place in Maine. 
>>> The cheapest system with battery back up which would have met my needs 
>>> would have cost 40K. He also told me that even though the panels would be 
>>> facing south, I would never recoup my investment due to a few trees which 
>>> were partially in the way. He downright refused to do the job unless I took 
>>> down the centuries old pine trees some of which were not even on my 
>>> property. Isn’t it contradictory to the green movement to cut down trees? 
>>> Either way I didn’t care because I didn’t have 40 K for solar panels.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Jul 13, 2022, at 12:55 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
  wrote:
 
 I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a site 
 survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the Flagstaff house. 
 While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and understand what’s 
 involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out there who has solar 
 power at their home and if there are concerns or issues you didn’t 
 anticipate or things I should be aware of that might not be obvious.
 
 I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ is 
 pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive. I’m 
 not convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be 
 something I’ll be closely scrutinizing.
 
 -D
 ___
 http://www.okiebenz.com
 
 To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
 
 To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
 http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

The price of panels has come down a bunch in the last 10 years. 20 years ago 
you were looking at $2/w, now you're under $1/w, in some cases way under.

-Curt

On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 09:09:54 AM EDT, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
 wrote: 


And if you don’t use what you send back to the grid within one year, Central 
Maine Power just keeps it, further increasing payback time. It’s a sham on all 
fronts apparently. One can argue that the indefinite payback time is 
unimportant because you are doing the right thing for the environment but who 
can afford to install these things in the first place? Seems to me like it’s 
mostly rich elites living in their utopias.  I’m not hurting financially and 
these things are out of my grasp as is $5 home heating oil.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 13, 2022, at 10:06 PM, Dwight Giles  wrote:
> 
> 
> yes we had solar assessment 20 years ago & payback time was beyond our 
> natural lives 
> 
> also heard on fire scanner that solar panels prevented firefighters to vent a 
> fire through the roof.
> 
>> On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 4:20 PM Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> I had a solar contractor come over and take a look at my place in Maine. The 
>> cheapest system with battery back up which would have met my needs would 
>> have cost 40K. He also told me that even though the panels would be facing 
>> south, I would never recoup my investment due to a few trees which were 
>> partially in the way. He downright refused to do the job unless I took down 
>> the centuries old pine trees some of which were not even on my property. 
>> Isn’t it contradictory to the green movement to cut down trees? Either way I 
>> didn’t care because I didn’t have 40 K for solar panels.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> > On Jul 13, 2022, at 12:55 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>> >  wrote:
>> > 
>> > I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a site 
>> > survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the Flagstaff house. 
>> > While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and understand what’s 
>> > involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out there who has solar 
>> > power at their home and if there are concerns or issues you didn’t 
>> > anticipate or things I should be aware of that might not be obvious.
>> > 
>> > I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ is 
>> > pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive. I’m 
>> > not convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be 
>> > something I’ll be closely scrutinizing.
>> > 
>> > -D
>> > ___
>> > http://www.okiebenz.com
>> > 
>> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> > 
>> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> > 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes]

And if you don’t use what you send back to the grid within one year, Central 
Maine Power just keeps it, further increasing payback time. It’s a sham on all 
fronts apparently. One can argue that the indefinite payback time is 
unimportant because you are doing the right thing for the environment but who 
can afford to install these things in the first place? Seems to me like it’s 
mostly rich elites living in their utopias.  I’m not hurting financially and 
these things are out of my grasp as is $5 home heating oil.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 13, 2022, at 10:06 PM, Dwight Giles  wrote:
> 
> 
> yes we had solar assessment 20 years ago & payback time was beyond our 
> natural lives 
> 
> also heard on fire scanner that solar panels prevented firefighters to vent a 
> fire through the roof.
> 
>> On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 4:20 PM Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> I had a solar contractor come over and take a look at my place in Maine. The 
>> cheapest system with battery back up which would have met my needs would 
>> have cost 40K. He also told me that even though the panels would be facing 
>> south, I would never recoup my investment due to a few trees which were 
>> partially in the way. He downright refused to do the job unless I took down 
>> the centuries old pine trees some of which were not even on my property. 
>> Isn’t it contradictory to the green movement to cut down trees? Either way I 
>> didn’t care because I didn’t have 40 K for solar panels.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> > On Jul 13, 2022, at 12:55 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>> >  wrote:
>> > 
>> > I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a site 
>> > survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the Flagstaff house. 
>> > While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and understand what’s 
>> > involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out there who has solar 
>> > power at their home and if there are concerns or issues you didn’t 
>> > anticipate or things I should be aware of that might not be obvious.
>> > 
>> > I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ is 
>> > pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive. I’m 
>> > not convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be 
>> > something I’ll be closely scrutinizing.
>> > 
>> > -D
>> > ___
>> > http://www.okiebenz.com
>> > 
>> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> > 
>> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> > 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Dwight Giles via Mercedes]

yes we had solar assessment 20 years ago & payback time was beyond our
natural lives

also heard on fire scanner that solar panels prevented firefighters to vent
a fire through the roof.

On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 4:20 PM Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I had a solar contractor come over and take a look at my place in Maine.
> The cheapest system with battery back up which would have met my needs
> would have cost 40K. He also told me that even though the panels would be
> facing south, I would never recoup my investment due to a few trees which
> were partially in the way. He downright refused to do the job unless I took
> down the centuries old pine trees some of which were not even on my
> property. Isn’t it contradictory to the green movement to cut down trees?
> Either way I didn’t care because I didn’t have 40 K for solar panels.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jul 13, 2022, at 12:55 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a
> site survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the Flagstaff
> house. While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and understand
> what’s involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out there who has
> solar power at their home and if there are concerns or issues you didn’t
> anticipate or things I should be aware of that might not be obvious.
> >
> > I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ is
> pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive. I’m
> not convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be something
> I’ll be closely scrutinizing.
> >
> > -D
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

THE cheapest, most reliable, and most efficient way to provide emergency
heat is via stored fuel.  Gas, oil, wood.  Everything else can't even be seen
in the rear-view mirror, it's so far inferior in all respects.

For emergency heating in colder climes, WHILE providing electricity for 
higher-grade
energy purposes, co-generation is unbeatable.  Find a way to heat using the
waste heat from the generator.

For 24x365 use solar is pretty good, IF you have enough sun and money.
Shade, or poverty, makes it a non-starter.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Sounds like you got either a dumb company or a fly-by night. The battery backup 
to run a heat pump through the night is going to be enormous and you're only 
going to use it occasionally.

The best use of solar is to backfeed into the grid, basically run your electric 
meter backwards while the sun is shining. You effectively use the grid as a 
battery.

To run heaters when the power is out you want a generator or just a propane 
heater...

-Curt


On Wednesday, July 13, 2022 at 04:42:06 PM EDT, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
 wrote: 





They told me that I needed battery backup to run heat pumps for the purpose of 
heating my garage. What I was essentially trying to do was heat my garage with 
heat pumps for very cheap. That didn’t seem to be a workable option with or 
without batteries due to the trees. The greenie weenies failed me. Oh well. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 13, 2022, at 4:23 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> That’s one of my concerns, as my lot is heavily treed and I’m not about to 
> take any of them down. That being said, my 3 car garage, which has a large 
> roof exposure, is not as nearly surrounded by trees, so it might be the 
> better spot for panels as far as maximizing exposure to the sun.
> 
> Do realize that battery backup is a substantial portion of the cost if you 
> opt for something like that. Depending on the amount of time you want to be 
> able to run on batteries, it can easily be half the cost of the system.
> 
> -D
> 
>> On Jul 13, 2022, at 1:19 PM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
>> 
>> I had a solar contractor come over and take a look at my place in Maine. The 
>> cheapest system with battery back up which would have met my needs would 
>> have cost 40K. He also told me that even though the panels would be facing 
>> south, I would never recoup my investment due to a few trees which were 
>> partially in the way. He downright refused to do the job unless I took down 
>> the centuries old pine trees some of which were not even on my property. 
>> Isn’t it contradictory to the green movement to cut down trees? Either way I 
>> didn’t care because I didn’t have 40 K for solar panels.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
 On Jul 13, 2022, at 12:55 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a site 
>>> survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the Flagstaff house. 
>>> While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and understand what’s 
>>> involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out there who has solar 
>>> power at their home and if there are concerns or issues you didn’t 
>>> anticipate or things I should be aware of that might not be obvious.
>>> 
>>> I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ is 
>>> pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive. I’m 
>>> not convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be something 
>>> I’ll be closely scrutinizing.
>>> 
>>> -D
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

>>> 
>> 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes]

They told me that I needed battery backup to run heat pumps for the purpose of 
heating my garage. What I was essentially trying to do was heat my garage with 
heat pumps for very cheap. That didn’t seem to be a workable option with or 
without batteries due to the trees. The greenie weenies failed me. Oh well. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 13, 2022, at 4:23 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> That’s one of my concerns, as my lot is heavily treed and I’m not about to 
> take any of them down. That being said, my 3 car garage, which has a large 
> roof exposure, is not as nearly surrounded by trees, so it might be the 
> better spot for panels as far as maximizing exposure to the sun.
> 
> Do realize that battery backup is a substantial portion of the cost if you 
> opt for something like that. Depending on the amount of time you want to be 
> able to run on batteries, it can easily be half the cost of the system.
> 
> -D
> 
>> On Jul 13, 2022, at 1:19 PM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
>> 
>> I had a solar contractor come over and take a look at my place in Maine. The 
>> cheapest system with battery back up which would have met my needs would 
>> have cost 40K. He also told me that even though the panels would be facing 
>> south, I would never recoup my investment due to a few trees which were 
>> partially in the way. He downright refused to do the job unless I took down 
>> the centuries old pine trees some of which were not even on my property. 
>> Isn’t it contradictory to the green movement to cut down trees? Either way I 
>> didn’t care because I didn’t have 40 K for solar panels.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
 On Jul 13, 2022, at 12:55 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a site 
>>> survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the Flagstaff house. 
>>> While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and understand what’s 
>>> involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out there who has solar 
>>> power at their home and if there are concerns or issues you didn’t 
>>> anticipate or things I should be aware of that might not be obvious.
>>> 
>>> I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ is 
>>> pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive. I’m 
>>> not convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be something 
>>> I’ll be closely scrutinizing.
>>> 
>>> -D
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>> 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

That’s one of my concerns, as my lot is heavily treed and I’m not about to take 
any of them down. That being said, my 3 car garage, which has a large roof 
exposure, is not as nearly surrounded by trees, so it might be the better spot 
for panels as far as maximizing exposure to the sun.

Do realize that battery backup is a substantial portion of the cost if you opt 
for something like that. Depending on the amount of time you want to be able to 
run on batteries, it can easily be half the cost of the system.

-D

> On Jul 13, 2022, at 1:19 PM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
> 
> I had a solar contractor come over and take a look at my place in Maine. The 
> cheapest system with battery back up which would have met my needs would have 
> cost 40K. He also told me that even though the panels would be facing south, 
> I would never recoup my investment due to a few trees which were partially in 
> the way. He downright refused to do the job unless I took down the centuries 
> old pine trees some of which were not even on my property. Isn’t it 
> contradictory to the green movement to cut down trees? Either way I didn’t 
> care because I didn’t have 40 K for solar panels.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 13, 2022, at 12:55 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a site 
>> survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the Flagstaff house. 
>> While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and understand what’s 
>> involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out there who has solar power 
>> at their home and if there are concerns or issues you didn’t anticipate or 
>> things I should be aware of that might not be obvious.
>> 
>> I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ is 
>> pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive. I’m not 
>> convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be something I’ll 
>> be closely scrutinizing.
>> 
>> -D
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes]

I had a solar contractor come over and take a look at my place in Maine. The 
cheapest system with battery back up which would have met my needs would have 
cost 40K. He also told me that even though the panels would be facing south, I 
would never recoup my investment due to a few trees which were partially in the 
way. He downright refused to do the job unless I took down the centuries old 
pine trees some of which were not even on my property. Isn’t it contradictory 
to the green movement to cut down trees? Either way I didn’t care because I 
didn’t have 40 K for solar panels.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 13, 2022, at 12:55 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a site 
> survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the Flagstaff house. 
> While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and understand what’s 
> involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out there who has solar power 
> at their home and if there are concerns or issues you didn’t anticipate or 
> things I should be aware of that might not be obvious.
> 
> I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ is 
> pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive. I’m not 
> convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be something I’ll 
> be closely scrutinizing.
> 
> -D
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

It all depends on what you're trying to do. I quite like the 8Bit Guy's 
solution: https://youtu.be/RhTDneoDUdc
He got snockered in the Texas cold snap last year, heat went out and froze his 
pipes, big damaged when the water came back on.

We've recently been having daily power blips at around 11am every day. I'm 
thinking I should probably put the wifi router and cable modem on a small UPS 
so they stay alive during a quick outage like that. For an extended outage I'll 
hook up the power inverter to a battery, like the lawnmower or the car so I can 
charge the laptop and run a couple lights. If I need to run the fridge I've got 
a small generator...

-Curt

 On Wednesday, July 13, 2022 at 01:11:41 PM EDT, mitch--- via Mercedes 
 wrote: 


I'd want some sort of off-grid functionality, even if it's just a 15A 
110v outlet that lets you plug an extension cord into the inverter to 
run the frige when the grid goes down.


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

If I was worried about resilience, as we are in Florida, I would go with a 
standby generator rather than a battery bank. Probably more expensive, but far 
less maintenance and a much longer useful life.

-D

> On Jul 13, 2022, at 10:13 AM, Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> A buddy just put solar on their house. I don’t know who they had do it but he 
> was happy with the process. They were waiting on a Tesla battery for some 
> storm resilience last we talked about it
> 
> --FT
> Sent from iFōn
> 
>> On Jul 13, 2022, at 12:55 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a site 
>> survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the Flagstaff house. 
>> While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and understand what’s 
>> involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out there who has solar power 
>> at their home and if there are concerns or issues you didn’t anticipate or 
>> things I should be aware of that might not be obvious.
>> 
>> I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ is 
>> pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive. I’m not 
>> convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be something I’ll 
>> be closely scrutinizing.
>> 
>> -D
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes]

A buddy just put solar on their house. I don’t know who they had do it but he 
was happy with the process. They were waiting on a Tesla battery for some storm 
resilience last we talked about it

--FT
Sent from iFōn

> On Jul 13, 2022, at 12:55 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a site 
> survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the Flagstaff house. 
> While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and understand what’s 
> involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out there who has solar power 
> at their home and if there are concerns or issues you didn’t anticipate or 
> things I should be aware of that might not be obvious.
> 
> I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ is 
> pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive. I’m not 
> convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be something I’ll 
> be closely scrutinizing.
> 
> -D
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

One of the worst states for solar. Mainly because the legislature is in bed 
with the electric utilities. It’s been so bad there that they’ve even tried to 
pass an amendment to the state constitution that all but cripples any attempt 
at point of use (consumer) solar.

They just tried to pass a law phasing out net metering, which for those not 
familiar with solar, is the legal requirement that a utility has to buy your 
excess power and pay the going rate for it. Without this, that solar array on 
your house will never pay for itself. Had it been signed into law (it passed 
the legislature) the solar industry in Florida would have been destroyed. For 
reasons not understood, the governor vetoed the law.

-D

> On Jul 13, 2022, at 10:02 AM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> You would think solar would be a huge deal in FL. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 13, 2022, at 11:55 AM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a site 
>> survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the Flagstaff house. 
>> While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and understand what’s 
>> involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out there who has solar power 
>> at their home and if there are concerns or issues you didn’t anticipate or 
>> things I should be aware of that might not be obvious.
>> 
>> I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ is 
>> pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive. I’m not 
>> convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be something I’ll 
>> be closely scrutinizing.
>> 
>> -D
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[mitch--- via Mercedes]

I'd want some sort of off-grid functionality, even if it's just a 15A 
110v outlet that lets you plug an extension cord into the inverter to 
run the frige when the grid goes down.


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

You would think solar would be a huge deal in FL. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 13, 2022, at 11:55 AM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a site 
> survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the Flagstaff house. 
> While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and understand what’s 
> involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out there who has solar power 
> at their home and if there are concerns or issues you didn’t anticipate or 
> things I should be aware of that might not be obvious.
> 
> I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ is 
> pretty progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive. I’m not 
> convinced that the payback is valid, however, so that will be something I’ll 
> be closely scrutinizing.
> 
> -D
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 


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[MBZ] OT - Solar Power @ Home

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

I’ve got a person coming over on Friday from our solar co-op to do a site 
survey and put together a proposal for doing solar at the Flagstaff house. 
While I’m relatively comfortable with the process and understand what’s 
involved, I would be curious if there’s anyone out there who has solar power at 
their home and if there are concerns or issues you didn’t anticipate or things 
I should be aware of that might not be obvious.

I have no idea if I will go forward with this or not. Fortunately, AZ is pretty 
progressive with solar, unlike Florida, so that’s a positive. I’m not convinced 
that the payback is valid, however, so that will be something I’ll be closely 
scrutinizing.

-D
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