Re: [MBZ] OT about when did vehicles become controlled by computers?
> the reason why I am wondering if I should be looking for an older vehicle in > good shape that does not have a lot of the complicated electrical components > that all the new vehicles have. That is the reason I repaired my 'totaled' Dodge diesel, rather than replace it. My wife thinks that it's just because I'm a cheap bastard. The real reason is that I never want to feel bent over by the vehicle and its vendor, and all such vendors' views that their wares are now disposable and/or subscription. I feel that this Dodge is likely the last truck I will ever need, and has a good shot at making it to EOL. Mine, not its. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT about when did vehicles become controlled by computers?
> The part is probably not available separately anyway and I have no intention > of buying the whole heater box unit. This is likely a perfect application for JB Weld, etc. Fabricate/repair whatever out-of-sight mechanicalness is necessary, and continue on from there. The NLA plastic cupholders in my two Dodge pickups have both been repaired with Shoe Goo with steel reinforcement. They work fine now, and still look normal. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT about when did vehicles become controlled by computers?
My 2013 F150 has a small piece broken off of the part that opens and closes the door in the heater box that controls the recirculate function. My mechanic son tells me that when I turn the key on, the computer is trying to determine if that door is closed. I do not have the automatic climate control system in the truck. The inability to use the recirculate function is not of much concern to me given it is only really useful for the maximum ac and I don't live in Phoenix. The default is apparently "off" so we have not taken it apart to try to repair it. The part is probably not available separately anyway and I have no intention of buying the whole heater box unit. It did make quite a noise when the part came off and fell into the squirrel cage blower. I also have an inoperative front right window. My son took it apart far enough to determine what the fault is. There is a big plug with a whole bunch of wires that connects the door to the chassis. One of the very small pins in that plug has corroded and fallen off. Again, the Lord only knows what one might have to replace in terms of a wiring harness. My son has saved some pins from vehicles he has worked on in the shop and thinks he can likely repair it but it is a sort of a painful job. Apart from these issues, the truck has been pretty good. I have had it 8 years now and it has 122K kilometers on it so, a bit over 75K miles. Minimal small failures like this would cost a fortune to have repaired in a commercial shop. I assume that is why so many late model vehicles are in the junk yards and there are so many that people are trying to part out. It is also, the reason why I am wondering if I should be looking for an older vehicle in good shape that does not have a lot of the complicated electrical components that all the new vehicles have. Randy On 13/10/2021 2:53 PM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes wrote: . . . . So long as they were using computers to _replace_ non-computer electronics they seemed to do a pretty good job. As soon as it became obvious that it _was_ a computer, usually via menus and lots of 'convenience' features, that's when the troubles seemed to creep in. My personal opinion is that it is _complexity_ that is the true killer. And nothing made in the last 20 years is at all non-complex. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT about when did vehicles become controlled by computers?
> Using that as a reference, a 240D would probably be the last model without > electronics. Vegan, or vegetarian? The 'vegan' Mercedes might have to be pre-W115. My W115 200D had electronics in it: the intermittent wiper and the turn signal flasher! And: radio! The W123 diesel doesn't have any _critical_ electronics. Of course, neither does a W126 diesel! So long as they were using computers to _replace_ non-computer electronics they seemed to do a pretty good job. As soon as it became obvious that it _was_ a computer, usually via menus and lots of 'convenience' features, that's when the troubles seemed to creep in. My personal opinion is that it is _complexity_ that is the true killer. And nothing made in the last 20 years is at all non-complex. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT about when did vehicles become controlled by computers?
This is a good distinction, as depending on how you qualify this, the threshold could be at W123 chassis’ cars, as they had electronics. Using that as a reference, a 240D would probably be the last model without electronics. -D > On Oct 13, 2021, at 11:56 AM, OK Don via Mercedes > wrote: > > To paraphrase what Jim said, electronic control is not synonymous with > computer control. Or, analog vs. digital systems. > Now, I don't have any idea of when the switch from analog controls to > digital controls happened for anything. > >> On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 12:50 PM Jim Cathey via Mercedes < >> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote: >> >> 'Computers' is a nebulous term. I think it's more germane to talk about >> what I once was taught to be 'operational definitions'. What you don't >> want are electronics in the car that are specific to that model/year, >> and/or >> must be customized (via computer) in order to work in the car. You also >> don't want something that is unaccountably fragile. >> >> In other words, it's OK for it to be a 'computer' if you can get another >> one at >> the junkyard, out of a similar car, and it's likely to work as-is in your >> car rather >> than itself being the thing that put the car into the junkyard in the >> first place. >> >> For Mercedes, that means W126/W201 or older. Possibly including W210, >> not sure about W140 or R129 as things are getting fuzzier there and I have >> no direct experience. Certainly nothing newer. >> >> My 1997 Dodge diesel has a computer. In this particular vehicle I think >> it runs >> the glow plugs and the alternator's voltage regulator. Maybe the >> front-only ABS. >> Basically nothing that couldn't be rigged around or done without. The '96 >> V10 >> computer also runs the ignition, fuel, and the transmission shifting, >> which is certainly >> more critical. OTOH, _any_ year V10 computer will probably work as a >> replacement, >> as-is, so... >> >> So, decide what hazard you're trying to avoid, exactly, and then it'll >> become more >> obvious what vehicles to avoid. >> >> -- Jim >> >> >> ___ >> http://www.okiebenz.com >> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ >> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com >> >> > > -- > OK Don > > "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to > pause and reflect." Mark Twain > > “Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.” Wernher > Von Braun > 2013 F150, 18 mpg > 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg > 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT about when did vehicles become controlled by computers?
To paraphrase what Jim said, electronic control is not synonymous with computer control. Or, analog vs. digital systems. Now, I don't have any idea of when the switch from analog controls to digital controls happened for anything. On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 12:50 PM Jim Cathey via Mercedes < mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote: > 'Computers' is a nebulous term. I think it's more germane to talk about > what I once was taught to be 'operational definitions'. What you don't > want are electronics in the car that are specific to that model/year, > and/or > must be customized (via computer) in order to work in the car. You also > don't want something that is unaccountably fragile. > > In other words, it's OK for it to be a 'computer' if you can get another > one at > the junkyard, out of a similar car, and it's likely to work as-is in your > car rather > than itself being the thing that put the car into the junkyard in the > first place. > > For Mercedes, that means W126/W201 or older. Possibly including W210, > not sure about W140 or R129 as things are getting fuzzier there and I have > no direct experience. Certainly nothing newer. > > My 1997 Dodge diesel has a computer. In this particular vehicle I think > it runs > the glow plugs and the alternator's voltage regulator. Maybe the > front-only ABS. > Basically nothing that couldn't be rigged around or done without. The '96 > V10 > computer also runs the ignition, fuel, and the transmission shifting, > which is certainly > more critical. OTOH, _any_ year V10 computer will probably work as a > replacement, > as-is, so... > > So, decide what hazard you're trying to avoid, exactly, and then it'll > become more > obvious what vehicles to avoid. > > -- Jim > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > > -- OK Don "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." Mark Twain “Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.” Wernher Von Braun 2013 F150, 18 mpg 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT about when did vehicles become controlled by computers?
'Computers' is a nebulous term. I think it's more germane to talk about what I once was taught to be 'operational definitions'. What you don't want are electronics in the car that are specific to that model/year, and/or must be customized (via computer) in order to work in the car. You also don't want something that is unaccountably fragile. In other words, it's OK for it to be a 'computer' if you can get another one at the junkyard, out of a similar car, and it's likely to work as-is in your car rather than itself being the thing that put the car into the junkyard in the first place. For Mercedes, that means W126/W201 or older. Possibly including W210, not sure about W140 or R129 as things are getting fuzzier there and I have no direct experience. Certainly nothing newer. My 1997 Dodge diesel has a computer. In this particular vehicle I think it runs the glow plugs and the alternator's voltage regulator. Maybe the front-only ABS. Basically nothing that couldn't be rigged around or done without. The '96 V10 computer also runs the ignition, fuel, and the transmission shifting, which is certainly more critical. OTOH, _any_ year V10 computer will probably work as a replacement, as-is, so... So, decide what hazard you're trying to avoid, exactly, and then it'll become more obvious what vehicles to avoid. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT about when did vehicles become controlled by computers?
To answer your question, sort of. I just took in a 1988 chevy/GMC suburban that is the first year GM used electronic throttle body injectors. Prior to 1988 carburetors. The TBI injectors are triggered by a timing trigger that is part of the distributor, and an arcane almost computer controls duration of fuel injection, timing advance, and not much else. I intend to flip it after cleaning up a few items that need attention. AZ rust free, 454 cubic inch engine... it will pass anything on the road except a gas station.. 9 pax, 3/4 ton chassis. I also own 5 [who can own too many?] Ford diesel trucks, 1985, 1986,1992 F450, 1992 F350, which has strictly mechanical injection pumps, mechanical injectors, then a 1995 [second year Ford used computer controlled injectors] Then, the Mercedes fleet. All are pre 1985 and Diesel. Mechanical injection pump, mechanical injectors. No computer anything... 79, 80, 80, 81, 82, 82 My personal view on computer controls for vehicles is that they are fragile and vulnerable, also, very quickly, replacement computer components are simply not available, which makes your vehicle a 4,000 lb boat anchor. The vehicles from various manufacturers, starting around 1988, began to add more computer controls and electronics, which require more expensive diagnostic equipment and knowledge of that specific car's systems. If you elect to buy an older mechanical controlled vehicle, search for the best one you can find and afford, as your starting point.. my best suggestion. Then, stock a supply of replacement parts, to keep it running properly.. [soon, that parts supply will likely run dry, as all new cars become more electronics dependent..] [See Kaleb's example of stocking parts cars.. ;)) ] On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 3:52 PM Kevin Kraly via Mercedes < mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote: > Lack of any computer controls is why my BIL chooses to drive a 1983 F150, > his $1000 $hitbox. It’s not much to talk about, but it runs, drives and > stops, and it isn’t totally rusted out…yet. > Kevin in Lexington, NC, still benzless > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Oct 12, 2021, at 5:52 PM, Clay via Mercedes > wrote: > > > > I am thinking the w201 may have been one of the earliest MB to acquire > computers. Probably wrong, though relays could be thought of as computer > gates. Transistors are computers of a sort, need to go back that far? > > > > > > --- > > clay > > > > I turned my computer upside down and shook it, but the bookmark for what > I'm looking for didn't fall out. > > > > > > > > > >> On Oct 12, 2021, at 11:57 AM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes < > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote: > >> > >> I am starting to think I would like to find another less complicated > vehicle. The newer ones seem to have computers controlling all sort of > things. > >> > >> How far back would I need to go to where about the only computer > control would be for the fuel injection? > >> > >> I am thinking, maybe, a Chevy Suburban. > >> > >> Randy > > ___ > > http://www.okiebenz.com > > > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT about when did vehicles become controlled by computers?
Lack of any computer controls is why my BIL chooses to drive a 1983 F150, his $1000 $hitbox. It’s not much to talk about, but it runs, drives and stops, and it isn’t totally rusted out…yet. Kevin in Lexington, NC, still benzless Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 12, 2021, at 5:52 PM, Clay via Mercedes wrote: > > I am thinking the w201 may have been one of the earliest MB to acquire > computers. Probably wrong, though relays could be thought of as computer > gates. Transistors are computers of a sort, need to go back that far? > > > --- > clay > > I turned my computer upside down and shook it, but the bookmark for what I'm > looking for didn't fall out. > > > > >> On Oct 12, 2021, at 11:57 AM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes >> wrote: >> >> I am starting to think I would like to find another less complicated >> vehicle. The newer ones seem to have computers controlling all sort of >> things. >> >> How far back would I need to go to where about the only computer control >> would be for the fuel injection? >> >> I am thinking, maybe, a Chevy Suburban. >> >> Randy > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT about when did vehicles become controlled by computers?
I am thinking the w201 may have been one of the earliest MB to acquire computers. Probably wrong, though relays could be thought of as computer gates. Transistors are computers of a sort, need to go back that far? --- clay I turned my computer upside down and shook it, but the bookmark for what I'm looking for didn't fall out. > On Oct 12, 2021, at 11:57 AM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes > wrote: > > I am starting to think I would like to find another less complicated vehicle. > The newer ones seem to have computers controlling all sort of things. > > How far back would I need to go to where about the only computer control > would be for the fuel injection? > > I am thinking, maybe, a Chevy Suburban. > > Randy ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT about when did vehicles become controlled by computers?
W126 or earlier. On Tue, Oct 12, 2021, at 3:57 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes wrote: > I am starting to think I would like to find another less complicated > vehicle. The newer ones seem to have computers controlling all sort of > things. > > How far back would I need to go to where about the only computer control > would be for the fuel injection? > > I am thinking, maybe, a Chevy Suburban. > > Randy > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT about when did vehicles become controlled by computers?
On 2021-10-12 15:57, Randy Bennell via Mercedes wrote: How far back would I need to go to where about the only computer control would be for the fuel injection? Computers took over engine management in the 1980s and transmission control in the 1990s. Late 1990s/early 2000s you started to see cabin control modules etc. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT about when did vehicles become controlled by computers?
Computer engine controls were introduced in 1980 on domestic cars (GM). As far as body control computers and such, I would think with the advent of ABS they became commonplace. My friend has a 1995 GMC Yukon (OBD1) and the ABS system is a pain to bleed. Rick From: mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: October 12, 2021 2:58 PM To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Reply-to: mercedes@okiebenz.com Cc: rbenn...@bennell.ca Subject: [MBZ] OT about when did vehicles become controlled by computers? I am starting to think I would like to find another less complicated vehicle. The newer ones seem to have computers controlling all sort of things. How far back would I need to go to where about the only computer control would be for the fuel injection? I am thinking, maybe, a Chevy Suburban. Randy ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] OT about when did vehicles become controlled by computers?
I am starting to think I would like to find another less complicated vehicle. The newer ones seem to have computers controlling all sort of things. How far back would I need to go to where about the only computer control would be for the fuel injection? I am thinking, maybe, a Chevy Suburban. Randy ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
