Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Clay via Mercedes]

China just landed a set of their astronaut (CommieNuts?) this week.  They were 
up there for around 100 days.  Probably doing more nefarious things than the 
nice folks on Inspiration4.  NorKs tested their rail based ICBM and Cruise 
missiles this week.

Clay




> On Sep 17, 2021, at 7:31 AM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I don't want to prolong this thread but one more point deserves saying.
> 
> Guidance for an EMP weapon is not hard; a WWII V2 rocket could do the job.
> Even primitive guidance technology that can't hit the broadside of the
> proverbial barn door is good enough.  Any nuclear country that can reach
> near orbit, even an unstable orbit, could build a devastating EMP weapon.
> All semiconductors are vulnerable.  Semiconductors are more vulnerable if
> powered. Recent types with very thin junctions are the most vulnerable.
> 
> Our 3-letter agencies know all this but claim white rage is the real
> problem.  What liars.  If white rage was the problem it would be obvious
> from the bodies.


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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

I don't want to prolong this thread but one more point deserves saying.

Guidance for an EMP weapon is not hard; a WWII V2 rocket could do the job.
Even primitive guidance technology that can't hit the broadside of the
proverbial barn door is good enough.  Any nuclear country that can reach
near orbit, even an unstable orbit, could build a devastating EMP weapon.
All semiconductors are vulnerable.  Semiconductors are more vulnerable if
powered. Recent types with very thin junctions are the most vulnerable.

Our 3-letter agencies know all this but claim white rage is the real
problem.  What liars.  If white rage was the problem it would be obvious
from the bodies.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Jim Cathey via Mercedes
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2021 10:50 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: Jim Cathey 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix
linotype, intertype, and other old presses

> https://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/documents/pubs/320-090_elecpuls_fs.pd
> f

Somewhat refreshing.  A fairly concise and readable document on a gov site!
The high-altitude nuke EMP generator is probably so effective because the
gamma-induced source causes a blanket effect in the atmosphere, which means
that the effective source of the pulse is only a few miles away from
everything.  There goes your inverse-square-rule protection.

EMP hardening is just a scaled-up version of what we already do for EMI and
lightning protection.  For example, I lost one (of six) drivers on my
homebrew sprinkler controller when lightning struck somewhere nearby while
it was watering the lawn.  Only the channel that was 'on', though, suffered.
The drivers were semi-protected (from surges coming in the buried cable) by
neon bulbs intended to short out high-voltage transients, and the cable
being looped through a magnetic core on its way to the controller---this
intended to slow risetimes enough to be handled better by the neon.  I only
ever lost the one driver, in the 30-odd years that the system has been in
use.  (I have a tube of spare drivers, just in case.  The drivers are
socketed.)

My guess is that the neons (et al.) are doing their job, but while the
driver was conducting, voltages never got to the point where the neon could
conduct, and the induced voltage was high enough to induce enough current in
the active circuit to fry the small junction in the driver.  The driver was
the ONLY semiconductor in the entire sprinkler circuit loop, the power
supply is just an AC transformer.  (Had it been a switcher, I'd probably
have lost it too.)  I probably need series inductors on the driver lines, to
keep transients out until the neons can do their jobs and sap the energy.
Of course, anything hot enough to fry the neons altogether will get in, but
NE-2 bulbs are pretty simple and robust.  It takes a LOT to make one of
those stop conducting.  Maybe if it popped?

Had I used relays (magnetic isolators) instead of optoisolators, probably no
damage.  But relays could wear over 30 years of activity.  And they were
bigger and more expensive.

You CAN design things to survive a lot, but I doubt that anything made in
China has had any real level of protection put in.  Smaller things are less
susceptible, due to lesser antenna effects, but they're also more
susceptible, due to smaller geometries.

Something whose job requires it to be out in the open, like solar cells, or
cables, has it pretty tough, though.

Keep your spares in Faraday cages?  That works, but what if your foe has
_two_ of the things, and waits for all the spares to be deployed before
setting off #2?

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> https://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/documents/pubs/320-090_elecpuls_fs.pdf

Somewhat refreshing.  A fairly concise and readable document on a gov site!
The high-altitude nuke EMP generator is probably so effective because the
gamma-induced source causes a blanket effect in the atmosphere, which
means that the effective source of the pulse is only a few miles away from
everything.  There goes your inverse-square-rule protection.

EMP hardening is just a scaled-up version of what we already do for EMI
and lightning protection.  For example, I lost one (of six) drivers on my
homebrew sprinkler controller when lightning struck somewhere nearby
while it was watering the lawn.  Only the channel that was 'on', though,
suffered.  The drivers were semi-protected (from surges coming in the
buried cable) by neon bulbs intended to short out high-voltage transients,
and the cable being looped through a magnetic core on its way to the
controller---this intended to slow risetimes enough to be handled better
by the neon.  I only ever lost the one driver, in the 30-odd years that
the system has been in use.  (I have a tube of spare drivers, just in
case.  The drivers are socketed.)

My guess is that the neons (et al.) are doing their job, but while the driver
was conducting, voltages never got to the point where the neon could
conduct, and the induced voltage was high enough to induce enough
current in the active circuit to fry the small junction in the driver.  The 
driver
was the ONLY semiconductor in the entire sprinkler circuit loop, the power
supply is just an AC transformer.  (Had it been a switcher, I'd probably have
lost it too.)  I probably need series inductors on the driver lines, to keep
transients out until the neons can do their jobs and sap the energy.  Of
course, anything hot enough to fry the neons altogether will get in, but
NE-2 bulbs are pretty simple and robust.  It takes a LOT to make one
of those stop conducting.  Maybe if it popped?

Had I used relays (magnetic isolators) instead of optoisolators, probably
no damage.  But relays could wear over 30 years of activity.  And they
were bigger and more expensive.

You CAN design things to survive a lot, but I doubt that anything made
in China has had any real level of protection put in.  Smaller things are
less susceptible, due to lesser antenna effects, but they're also more
susceptible, due to smaller geometries.

Something whose job requires it to be out in the open, like solar cells,
or cables, has it pretty tough, though.

Keep your spares in Faraday cages?  That works, but what if your foe
has _two_ of the things, and waits for all the spares to be deployed
before setting off #2?

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[G Mann via Mercedes]

https://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/documents/pubs/320-090_elecpuls_fs.pdf
What happens during an EMP, and how big of a device is needed to cover an
area the size of USA.
[search question]

On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 3:18 PM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Solar cells, charge controllers, and EV motor controllers are all built on
> semiconductors and all are vulnerable to permanent EMP damage.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of G Mann via Mercedes
> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 3:16 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: G Mann 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix
> linotype, intertype, and other old presses
>
> You might want to rethink that plan to use solar panel system to recharge
> your EV car after EMP event.
>
> https://www.sol-ark.com/can-solar-flares-or-emp-damage-solar-power-systems/#
>
> :~:text=An%20EMP%20damages%20electronics%2C%20particularly,or%20connected%20
> to%20electronic%20devices.=However%2C%20solar%20panels%20are%20usually
> 
> ,
> solar%20electronics%20are%20likewise%20damaged
> .
>
> On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:10 PM Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> >  How is that different than ICE vehicles? If I've got an electric
> > vehicle and an off grid solar power system I can generate power to charge
> my car.
> > It might take weeks but I could do it.
> > If I'm out of gas/diesel and there has been a disruption to supply I'm
> > screwed.
> > -Curt
> >
> > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:05:32 PM EDT, Jim Cathey via
> > Mercedes  wrote:
> >
> >  The best thing that could happen to ensure the survival of our
> > civilization, in some form after a major disruption, would be a
> > widespread reliance on electric vehicles.  When the shit hit the fan
> > the cities and their residents would mostly all die right away,
> > because they couldn't get out very far.
> > The remainder, rurally located, would be left to pick up the pieces as
> > they could.
> >
> > Electric vehicles are the supermarkets of the transportation world.
> > They're great, so long as everything's working.  Otherwise, useless.
> > Deathtraps.
> >
> > -- Jim
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Solar cells, charge controllers, and EV motor controllers are all built on
semiconductors and all are vulnerable to permanent EMP damage.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of G Mann via Mercedes
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 3:16 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: G Mann 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix
linotype, intertype, and other old presses

You might want to rethink that plan to use solar panel system to recharge
your EV car after EMP event.
https://www.sol-ark.com/can-solar-flares-or-emp-damage-solar-power-systems/#
:~:text=An%20EMP%20damages%20electronics%2C%20particularly,or%20connected%20
to%20electronic%20devices.=However%2C%20solar%20panels%20are%20usually,
solar%20electronics%20are%20likewise%20damaged
.

On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:10 PM Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>  How is that different than ICE vehicles? If I've got an electric 
> vehicle and an off grid solar power system I can generate power to charge
my car.
> It might take weeks but I could do it.
> If I'm out of gas/diesel and there has been a disruption to supply I'm 
> screwed.
> -Curt
>
> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:05:32 PM EDT, Jim Cathey via 
> Mercedes  wrote:
>
>  The best thing that could happen to ensure the survival of our 
> civilization, in some form after a major disruption, would be a 
> widespread reliance on electric vehicles.  When the shit hit the fan 
> the cities and their residents would mostly all die right away, 
> because they couldn't get out very far.
> The remainder, rurally located, would be left to pick up the pieces as 
> they could.
>
> Electric vehicles are the supermarkets of the transportation world.
> They're great, so long as everything's working.  Otherwise, useless.
> Deathtraps.
>
> -- Jim
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
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>
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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> Ain’t your neck of the woods already getting ready to implement the death 
> panels?

Don't get sick.  IMHO there should now be two COVID wards in hospitals.  Which 
one
you go in should be predicated on the answer to the questions: "Were you 
vaccinated?
And why not, exactly?"

Ward 1 is upstairs.  Ward 2, the one for dumb-asses, is out in the parking lot.
Self-serve.  No waiting.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Clay via Mercedes]

I can scavenge fuel from an abandoned vehicle with ICI.  There is no way to 
suckle electrons from a dead EV.  EV goes all of 250 miles at best then needs a 
half day to dribble power back in, while I can siphon gas out of all manner of 
lawn mower, snow blower, or even toss a garden hose into a gas station tank and 
draw out fuel enough to get over the horizon.  No idea how long the charge in a 
Tesla lasts, but a Priapus will not get light off with a dead batter for the 
ICI end.

Clay


inter urinas et faeces nascimur

> On Sep 15, 2021, at 12:03 PM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
>> I think you're putting a lot of faith into your ability to refuel, 
>> especially after, say, a month...


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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Clay via Mercedes]

CME would do a pretty good job of making an errant Nork nuke look like a 
mosquito bite.  There have been a few doozies this summer that just missed us, 
having burped out in places that will make for really nice Northern Lights come 
winter.  Will have dissipated by then, but if it happens come New Years, will 
be dazzling.  Something like that tends to set transmission lines alight

Clay


inter urinas et faeces nascimur

> On Sep 15, 2021, at 10:51 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> EMPs are not magic.  They're radio, and are subject to inverse-square laws.
> The devices in question are capable of surviving some level of unwanted
> signal, the EMP failure scenarios are just where the pulse is too strong
> and swamps the inputs, destructively.  Things with long wires (antennae)
> are particularly susceptible.  OTOH, wiry things like the power grid are
> already capable of surviving massive unwanted destructive inputs such
> as lightning strikes.  Somewhat.
> 
> EMPs have difficulty reaching out over large areas.  Things that do NOT
> have these problems, like computer viruses and social hysteria, are
> probably far more of a real threat to us all.
> 
> -- Jim
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Clay via Mercedes]

Love Niven.  Ain’t your neck of the woods already getting ready to implement 
the death panels?  Think I heard from the Seattle Times columnist that 
hospitals there are lacking staff enough to provide basic health services 
anymore.  Pretty sure it was Spokane as well as SEA and down PDX as well.

Clay


inter urinas et faeces nascimur

> On Sep 15, 2021, at 10:36 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Our civilization, having opted for efficiency over resilience, is fragile.
> Any sufficient disruption would have a domino effect, ending up in
> the 'Mad Max' scenario.  People would starve/sicken/die BEFORE
> infrastructure repairs could be accomplished.  The desperate would
> plunder those working to repair things, probably preventing the repairs,
> ultimately prolonging and deepening the problem.
> 
> A tipping point, if you will.  But, exactly where is it?  How much of a
> kick to the anthill is required to start things toppling?
> 
> Fix it in a week or thereabouts, the time it takes any big city to begin
> starving, or bend over and kiss your ass goodbye.
> 
> The Amish would be screwed.  Too many know they're there, they'd be
> overrun by two-legged rats in no time.  And they're non-violent.  The
> equivalent of mountain warlords might survive, if they acted quickly and
> ruthlessly enough.  Shades of Lucifer's Hammer...
> 
> -- Jim
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

My _personal_ survival vehicle would be my trusty '97 Dodge 4wd diesel pickup.
100% mechanical if you lash up the P7100's fuel cutoff solenoid, and you can
push/tow-start it if need be.  (Steep hill recommended!)  But I am not a
prepper, in any real sense, so I don't have all that other stuff.  With any 
advance
notice, my first response would be, while civilization still held, to load up
valuables and supplies in said truck/camper, with trailer, and move family and
self to the old family farm.  Then help the locals blow bridges and such, in
fine Lucifer's Hammer tradition.  Trade my sentry, and engineering, services
such as they are for food, hope they'd let me stay.  Alive.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[G Mann via Mercedes]

I presume your survival vehicle is a pre-computer controlled diesel , and
part of your survival tool kit is a reliable fuel transfer [multiple
options] mechanical device? Aux tanks to extend range?
See Mad Max movie... ;))


On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 1:04 PM Jim Cathey via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> > I think you're putting a lot of faith into your ability to refuel,
> especially after, say, a month...
>
> Again, not MY ability to refuel.  Just that enough people would be able to
> refuel,
> probably by violence and theft, to help spread the fall of civilization.
> With EV
> the rot is a day's travel from home, and then it's on foot.  With ICE, the
> rot is a
> month's travel from home before it's on foot.  Which damages more of the
> somewhat self-sufficient rural community?
>
> -- Jim
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> I think you're putting a lot of faith into your ability to refuel, especially 
> after, say, a month...

Again, not MY ability to refuel.  Just that enough people would be able to 
refuel,
probably by violence and theft, to help spread the fall of civilization.  With 
EV
the rot is a day's travel from home, and then it's on foot.  With ICE, the rot 
is a
month's travel from home before it's on foot.  Which damages more of the
somewhat self-sufficient rural community?

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 I think you're putting a lot of faith into your ability to refuel, especially 
after, say, a month...
I'm also not sure, if the issue were country-wide, that there is anywhere to go 
short of getting out of the city.

-Curt

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:43:31 PM EDT, Jim Cathey 
 wrote:  
 
 With an EV, your radius from home is essentially fixed.  With a fueled 
vehicle, it isn't.  
That's the distinction I'm calling out.  Think of the citizens as a disease 
vector.
Starving, violent resource-less people overrunning those who might have a chance
of survival/recovery, if they weren't overrun, taking them both out.  EV keeps 
them
penned in more than ICE does, ensuring earlier death.

I'm not talking about any individual's survival, just that of civilization 
itself.
In the case of a massive infrastructure disruption.  (Grid off, etc.)  10% 
survival
is going to be better for that than 0.1% survival would.

Horrible scenario.  I just think EV is better for civilization, long run, in 
that case.
By making sure YOU (and probably I) are dead, giving Zebediah a chance.

-- Jim

  
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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

With an EV, your radius from home is essentially fixed.  With a fueled vehicle, 
it isn't.  
That's the distinction I'm calling out.  Think of the citizens as a disease 
vector.
Starving, violent resource-less people overrunning those who might have a chance
of survival/recovery, if they weren't overrun, taking them both out.  EV keeps 
them
penned in more than ICE does, ensuring earlier death.

I'm not talking about any individual's survival, just that of civilization 
itself.
In the case of a massive infrastructure disruption.  (Grid off, etc.)  10% 
survival
is going to be better for that than 0.1% survival would.

Horrible scenario.  I just think EV is better for civilization, long run, in 
that case.
By making sure YOU (and probably I) are dead, giving Zebediah a chance.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 I guess I don't understand, we're assuming a case where both vehicles start 
with no fuel/electricity? Why would we do that? An electric car sitting, turned 
off, will no doubt lose charge but what time period are we talking about? You 
seem to have some assumptions there that you haven't explained.

Why did I wait to charge my car until my food was gone? Why didn't I charge it 
the last time I came home? That seems to be to be one of the prime advantages 
of electric cars, I "refuel" at home when I'm not using the car.
-Curt

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:18:24 PM EDT, Jim Cathey 
 wrote:  
 
 > How is that different than ICE vehicles?

Fuel stores.

> If I've got an electric vehicle and an off grid solar power system I can 
> generate power to charge my car. It might take weeks but I could do it.

What are you eating while you wait for the charge?

> If I'm out of gas/diesel and there has been a disruption to supply I'm 
> screwed.

Theft, violent or otherwise, offers you a path.

My point is that if everybody has electric cars we get 90% of people killed off
right away, giving the 10% a better chance of long-term survival.  Fueled 
vehicles
offer too much resiliency, allowing scenarios for the rot to spread further 
before
things stabilize again.  So instead of 10% it's maybe 0.1%, and is that enough?

-- Jim

  
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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> How is that different than ICE vehicles?

Fuel stores.

> If I've got an electric vehicle and an off grid solar power system I can 
> generate power to charge my car. It might take weeks but I could do it.

What are you eating while you wait for the charge?

> If I'm out of gas/diesel and there has been a disruption to supply I'm 
> screwed.

Theft, violent or otherwise, offers you a path.

My point is that if everybody has electric cars we get 90% of people killed off
right away, giving the 10% a better chance of long-term survival.  Fueled 
vehicles
offer too much resiliency, allowing scenarios for the rot to spread further 
before
things stabilize again.  So instead of 10% it's maybe 0.1%, and is that enough?

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[G Mann via Mercedes]

You might want to rethink that plan to use solar panel system to recharge
your EV car after EMP event.
https://www.sol-ark.com/can-solar-flares-or-emp-damage-solar-power-systems/#:~:text=An%20EMP%20damages%20electronics%2C%20particularly,or%20connected%20to%20electronic%20devices.=However%2C%20solar%20panels%20are%20usually,solar%20electronics%20are%20likewise%20damaged
.

On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:10 PM Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>  How is that different than ICE vehicles? If I've got an electric vehicle
> and an off grid solar power system I can generate power to charge my car.
> It might take weeks but I could do it.
> If I'm out of gas/diesel and there has been a disruption to supply I'm
> screwed.
> -Curt
>
> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:05:32 PM EDT, Jim Cathey via
> Mercedes  wrote:
>
>  The best thing that could happen to ensure the survival of our
> civilization,
> in some form after a major disruption, would be a widespread reliance on
> electric vehicles.  When the shit hit the fan the cities and their
> residents
> would mostly all die right away, because they couldn't get out very far.
> The remainder, rurally located, would be left to pick up the pieces as
> they could.
>
> Electric vehicles are the supermarkets of the transportation world.
> They're great, so long as everything's working.  Otherwise, useless.
> Deathtraps.
>
> -- Jim
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 How is that different than ICE vehicles? If I've got an electric vehicle and 
an off grid solar power system I can generate power to charge my car. It might 
take weeks but I could do it.
If I'm out of gas/diesel and there has been a disruption to supply I'm screwed.
-Curt

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:05:32 PM EDT, Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 The best thing that could happen to ensure the survival of our civilization,
in some form after a major disruption, would be a widespread reliance on
electric vehicles.  When the shit hit the fan the cities and their residents
would mostly all die right away, because they couldn't get out very far.
The remainder, rurally located, would be left to pick up the pieces as
they could.

Electric vehicles are the supermarkets of the transportation world.
They're great, so long as everything's working.  Otherwise, useless.
Deathtraps.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

The best thing that could happen to ensure the survival of our civilization,
in some form after a major disruption, would be a widespread reliance on
electric vehicles.  When the shit hit the fan the cities and their residents
would mostly all die right away, because they couldn't get out very far.
The remainder, rurally located, would be left to pick up the pieces as
they could.

Electric vehicles are the supermarkets of the transportation world.
They're great, so long as everything's working.  Otherwise, useless.
Deathtraps.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

> The Amish would be screwed.  Too many know they're there, they'd be overrun 
> by two-legged rats in no time.  And they're non-violent.

I'd guess they forgot to read the part about "beating plowshares into swords."

That said, they do own and use guns, for hunting. If they were being overrun, 
perhaps the self preservation instinct would override any cognitive opposition 
to do battle.

Rick
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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

EMPs are not magic.  They're radio, and are subject to inverse-square laws.
The devices in question are capable of surviving some level of unwanted
signal, the EMP failure scenarios are just where the pulse is too strong
and swamps the inputs, destructively.  Things with long wires (antennae)
are particularly susceptible.  OTOH, wiry things like the power grid are
already capable of surviving massive unwanted destructive inputs such
as lightning strikes.  Somewhat.

EMPs have difficulty reaching out over large areas.  Things that do NOT
have these problems, like computer viruses and social hysteria, are
probably far more of a real threat to us all.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[G Mann via Mercedes]

When I was at military survival school, the question was, "What is the
difference between a gourmet and a violent scavenger?"
Answer: "About 7 days without food."

On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 11:36 AM Jim Cathey via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Our civilization, having opted for efficiency over resilience, is fragile.
> Any sufficient disruption would have a domino effect, ending up in
> the 'Mad Max' scenario.  People would starve/sicken/die BEFORE
> infrastructure repairs could be accomplished.  The desperate would
> plunder those working to repair things, probably preventing the repairs,
> ultimately prolonging and deepening the problem.
>
> A tipping point, if you will.  But, exactly where is it?  How much of a
> kick to the anthill is required to start things toppling?
>
> Fix it in a week or thereabouts, the time it takes any big city to begin
> starving, or bend over and kiss your ass goodbye.
>
> The Amish would be screwed.  Too many know they're there, they'd be
> overrun by two-legged rats in no time.  And they're non-violent.  The
> equivalent of mountain warlords might survive, if they acted quickly and
> ruthlessly enough.  Shades of Lucifer's Hammer...
>
> -- Jim
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[G Mann via Mercedes]

An effective EMP event does not require a huge nuke. A small nuke,
detonated at altitude to maximize coverage.. or several small nukes
perhaps, could fry every circuit board and computer system. Your "smart
phone" would be a brick, TV stations, banks, gas pumps, food stores, cash
registers the list quickly gets long, because we are now deeply
committed to such devices, and have no backup system.
Suddenly, your cars do not run, you have no cash, your food in the fridge
is rotting, and you can't call 911 because the phone system is fried... cop
radios don't work... etc etc etc  no backup systems in place.
What just happened to your personal quality of life, as you now know it?

On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 11:30 AM Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>  So you're thinking of a really massive EMP right? Something let off in
> the upper atmosphere?
> It's hard to an imagine an EMP of that size.
> Besides which theres the rest of the world, or are you imagining a
> world-wide EMP?
> -Curt
>
> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 02:23:03 PM EDT, Scott Ritchey via
> Mercedes  wrote:
>
>  Which is why I'll never sell my 300SD.  But expect many roads to become
> impassible with manned checkpoints  (where robbers will kill you and steal
> your car) and millions of dead modern cars, frozen in place since the event.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 2:07 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: Kaleb Striplin 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix
> linotype, intertype, and other old presses
>
> Those driving a 240D might survive also.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 15, 2021, at 12:58 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > 
> >>
> >> How would an EMP event cause 90% fatalities?
> >
> > Instant return to Amish living. No groceries, no gasoline, no natural
> gas, no propane, no electricity.
> >
> > With supply chain disruptions what they are currently, it's difficult
> enough to get repair parts, etc. With no supply chain at all, what happens.
> This country has an exceedingly thin veneer of civility, and with an EMP
> that would be gone. Rural folks, with SKILLS, would fair much better than
> urban and suburban folks. They would be decimated in less than a month. It
> will/would take a year minimum for any infrastructure to be rebuilt. How
> long can one survive with no food/water/medical care?
> >
> > Even a regional EMP would likely take down much of the US electrical
> grid, because it is all interconnected, and interdependent, with the
> exception perhaps of Texas.
> >
> > The Amish would survive. Everyone else, not so much.
> >
> >
> > Rick
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
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> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> >
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

Our civilization, having opted for efficiency over resilience, is fragile.
Any sufficient disruption would have a domino effect, ending up in
the 'Mad Max' scenario.  People would starve/sicken/die BEFORE
infrastructure repairs could be accomplished.  The desperate would
plunder those working to repair things, probably preventing the repairs,
ultimately prolonging and deepening the problem.

A tipping point, if you will.  But, exactly where is it?  How much of a
kick to the anthill is required to start things toppling?

Fix it in a week or thereabouts, the time it takes any big city to begin
starving, or bend over and kiss your ass goodbye.

The Amish would be screwed.  Too many know they're there, they'd be
overrun by two-legged rats in no time.  And they're non-violent.  The
equivalent of mountain warlords might survive, if they acted quickly and
ruthlessly enough.  Shades of Lucifer's Hammer...

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 So you're thinking of a really massive EMP right? Something let off in the 
upper atmosphere?
It's hard to an imagine an EMP of that size.
Besides which theres the rest of the world, or are you imagining a world-wide 
EMP?
-Curt

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 02:23:03 PM EDT, Scott Ritchey via 
Mercedes  wrote:  
 
 Which is why I'll never sell my 300SD.  But expect many roads to become 
impassible with manned checkpoints  (where robbers will kill you and steal your 
car) and millions of dead modern cars, frozen in place since the event.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 2:07 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: Kaleb Striplin 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, 
intertype, and other old presses

Those driving a 240D might survive also. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 15, 2021, at 12:58 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> How would an EMP event cause 90% fatalities?
> 
> Instant return to Amish living. No groceries, no gasoline, no natural gas, no 
> propane, no electricity.
> 
> With supply chain disruptions what they are currently, it's difficult enough 
> to get repair parts, etc. With no supply chain at all, what happens. This 
> country has an exceedingly thin veneer of civility, and with an EMP that 
> would be gone. Rural folks, with SKILLS, would fair much better than urban 
> and suburban folks. They would be decimated in less than a month. It 
> will/would take a year minimum for any infrastructure to be rebuilt. How long 
> can one survive with no food/water/medical care?
> 
> Even a regional EMP would likely take down much of the US electrical grid, 
> because it is all interconnected, and interdependent, with the exception 
> perhaps of Texas.
> 
> The Amish would survive. Everyone else, not so much.
> 
> 
> Rick
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Which is why I'll never sell my 300SD.  But expect many roads to become 
impassible with manned checkpoints  (where robbers will kill you and steal your 
car) and millions of dead modern cars, frozen in place since the event.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 2:07 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: Kaleb Striplin 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, 
intertype, and other old presses

Those driving a 240D might survive also. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 15, 2021, at 12:58 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> How would an EMP event cause 90% fatalities?
> 
> Instant return to Amish living. No groceries, no gasoline, no natural gas, no 
> propane, no electricity.
> 
> With supply chain disruptions what they are currently, it's difficult enough 
> to get repair parts, etc. With no supply chain at all, what happens. This 
> country has an exceedingly thin veneer of civility, and with an EMP that 
> would be gone. Rural folks, with SKILLS, would fair much better than urban 
> and suburban folks. They would be decimated in less than a month. It 
> will/would take a year minimum for any infrastructure to be rebuilt. How long 
> can one survive with no food/water/medical care?
> 
> Even a regional EMP would likely take down much of the US electrical grid, 
> because it is all interconnected, and interdependent, with the exception 
> perhaps of Texas.
> 
> The Amish would survive. Everyone else, not so much.
> 
> 
> Rick
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> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

In a wide-spread EMP event essentially all modern electronic systems, including 
the power grid, stop working, permanent damage.  Without deliveries of food (or 
anything else), inability to pump water, lack of refrigeration, and no modern 
medicine, things get bad fast.  The breakdown of law enforcement would be 
complete. Regular citizens would become roving gangs foraging to survive, 
without caring about who got hurt in the process.  Available supplies would 
soon be exhausted.  Most people would not be able to evacuate without mass 
transportation or their own cars (both not working).  Without sewage pumping 
and treatment, disease would become rampant and anyone requiring real medical 
care wouldn't get it.  Garbage would just pile up.  Of course, modern 
buildings, never designed with natural cross ventilation, become inhabitable.  
Underground fuel stores would be trapped.  Fires would burn until they burn 
out.  There would be a complete lack of reliable information (like is anywhere 
still OK?).  A simple injury could become fatal.  Spare parts for the power 
grid (like big transformers) are woefully inadequate and take years to build 
(mostly overseas, I hear).   I think you bet the picture.  People would be 
instantly thrown back into the 19th century and they lack the knowledge and 
stuff (like horses) needed to survive there.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of dan penoff.com via Mercedes
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 1:44 PM
To: Okie Benz 
Cc: dan penoff.com 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, 
intertype, and other old presses

How would an EMP event cause 90% fatalities? I’m not disputing, just trying to 
understand.

Certainly stuff would break and cause some fatalities, but I find it difficult 
to imagine a number so high.

-D

> On Sep 15, 2021, at 1:36 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Not unlike the era when ships were made of wood and the men were made 
> of steel.  They say that a wide-scale EMP event would result in 90% 
> fatalities.
> I suspect higher, especially urban areas.  Given systemic failures to 
> harden the grid maybe we would be better served learning how to survive 
> without it.
> Does anyone teach Boy Scout skills these days?
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2021 12:40 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: Andrew Strasfogel 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix 
> linotype, intertype, and other old presses
> 
> Now THERE'S a scarce skill.
> 
> On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 11:52 AM Floyd Thursby via Mercedes < 
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> https://www.ifixit.com/News/52539/what-its-like-to-fix-linotype-inter
>> t
>> ype-and-other-old-presses
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> --FT
>> 
>> ___
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>> 
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>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

Those driving a 240D might survive also. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 15, 2021, at 12:58 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> How would an EMP event cause 90% fatalities?
> 
> Instant return to Amish living. No groceries, no gasoline, no natural gas, no 
> propane, no electricity.
> 
> With supply chain disruptions what they are currently, it's difficult enough 
> to get repair parts, etc. With no supply chain at all, what happens. This 
> country has an exceedingly thin veneer of civility, and with an EMP that 
> would be gone. Rural folks, with SKILLS, would fair much better than urban 
> and suburban folks. They would be decimated in less than a month. It 
> will/would take a year minimum for any infrastructure to be rebuilt. How long 
> can one survive with no food/water/medical care?
> 
> Even a regional EMP would likely take down much of the US electrical grid, 
> because it is all interconnected, and interdependent, with the exception 
> perhaps of Texas.
> 
> The Amish would survive. Everyone else, not so much.
> 
> 
> Rick
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> 
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> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

>How would an EMP event cause 90% fatalities?

Instant return to Amish living. No groceries, no gasoline, no natural gas, no 
propane, no electricity.

With supply chain disruptions what they are currently, it's difficult enough to 
get repair parts, etc. With no supply chain at all, what happens. This country 
has an exceedingly thin veneer of civility, and with an EMP that would be gone. 
Rural folks, with SKILLS, would fair much better than urban and suburban folks. 
They would be decimated in less than a month. It will/would take a year minimum 
for any infrastructure to be rebuilt. How long can one survive with no 
food/water/medical care?

Even a regional EMP would likely take down much of the US electrical grid, 
because it is all interconnected, and interdependent, with the exception 
perhaps of Texas.

The Amish would survive. Everyone else, not so much.


Rick
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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 I think they mean over the medium term, lack of access to clean water, life 
supporting drugs etc.Certainly my own survival long term without certain 
medications is a bit suspect. Based on past experience I'd have about 10 years.
Sometimes when considering post apocalyptic type scenarios I wonder if I'd 
really want to be around though. Did any of you read "The Road"?
-Curt

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 01:44:23 PM EDT, dan penoff.com via 
Mercedes  wrote:  
 
 How would an EMP event cause 90% fatalities? I’m not disputing, just trying to 
understand.

Certainly stuff would break and cause some fatalities, but I find it difficult 
to imagine a number so high.

-D

> On Sep 15, 2021, at 1:36 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Not unlike the era when ships were made of wood and the men were made of
> steel.  They say that a wide-scale EMP event would result in 90% fatalities.
> I suspect higher, especially urban areas.  Given systemic failures to harden
> the grid maybe we would be better served learning how to survive without it.
> Does anyone teach Boy Scout skills these days?
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2021 12:40 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: Andrew Strasfogel 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix
> linotype, intertype, and other old presses
> 
> Now THERE'S a scarce skill.
> 
> On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 11:52 AM Floyd Thursby via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> https://www.ifixit.com/News/52539/what-its-like-to-fix-linotype-intert
>> ype-and-other-old-presses
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> --FT
>> 
>> ___
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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

How would an EMP event cause 90% fatalities? I’m not disputing, just trying to 
understand.

Certainly stuff would break and cause some fatalities, but I find it difficult 
to imagine a number so high.

-D

> On Sep 15, 2021, at 1:36 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Not unlike the era when ships were made of wood and the men were made of
> steel.  They say that a wide-scale EMP event would result in 90% fatalities.
> I suspect higher, especially urban areas.  Given systemic failures to harden
> the grid maybe we would be better served learning how to survive without it.
> Does anyone teach Boy Scout skills these days?
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2021 12:40 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: Andrew Strasfogel 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix
> linotype, intertype, and other old presses
> 
> Now THERE'S a scarce skill.
> 
> On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 11:52 AM Floyd Thursby via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> https://www.ifixit.com/News/52539/what-its-like-to-fix-linotype-intert
>> ype-and-other-old-presses
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> --FT
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Not unlike the era when ships were made of wood and the men were made of
steel.  They say that a wide-scale EMP event would result in 90% fatalities.
I suspect higher, especially urban areas.  Given systemic failures to harden
the grid maybe we would be better served learning how to survive without it.
Does anyone teach Boy Scout skills these days?

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2021 12:40 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: Andrew Strasfogel 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix
linotype, intertype, and other old presses

Now THERE'S a scarce skill.

On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 11:52 AM Floyd Thursby via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>
> https://www.ifixit.com/News/52539/what-its-like-to-fix-linotype-intert
> ype-and-other-old-presses
>
> --
>
> --FT
>
> ___
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>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Now THERE'S a scarce skill.

On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 11:52 AM Floyd Thursby via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>
> https://www.ifixit.com/News/52539/what-its-like-to-fix-linotype-intertype-and-other-old-presses
>
> --
>
> --FT
>
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[MBZ] OT for our printer expert -- What it's like to fix linotype, intertype, and other old presses

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

https://www.ifixit.com/News/52539/what-its-like-to-fix-linotype-intertype-and-other-old-presses

--

--FT

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