Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-07-02 Thread Curley McLain via Mercedes
I have moved the old water heater to its new location.  I think the best 
(and most economical) direction is to keep the lp tank heater.  I think 
perhaps SWMBO may have come to that conclusion too, after some 
research.  At least for the time being, the tank lives on.  Thanks to 
all who offered info and experience.


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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-28 Thread Curley McLain via Mercedes

yeah, we've mostly had electric.

Randy Bennell via Mercedes wrote on 6/28/19 10:24 AM:
Is she used to using an electric stove? Most people prefer gas if they 
have it for a while. Heats faster and has more infinite control.

We do not have a gas stove but have considered getting one.


On 28/06/2019 8:40 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:

Craig, and everyone else:

Thanks for the input.  I have been happy to light pilots or burners 
in exchange for appliances that run when there is no lektrick.  A few 
yrs ago they buried the lektric service, and I put in a new 200A 
panel, so juice is available, and lektrick is much more reliable.  
Now it only goes out if someone takes out a pole on the highway.


I think the stove is the major gripe.  The pilot has not worked on it 
for at least 50 yrs.  When I offered to try to clean it up and get 
the pilot working a few yrs ago she didn't want me to.  We have a new 
kitchen design that can accommodate a 30" lektrick stove, and we have 
a 30" lektrick stove already.   So, that gripe will go away.


The current water heater is ok.   I have a spare available (used 30 
gal LP)  (both are over 40 yrs old, but used seasonally)  my rule is 
to use/repair them until they leak.
I am redoing the plumbing to PEX, and have a little closet for the 
water (pex manifolds) with space for a tankless. In this, I will move 
the current heater a few inches so it will take up less space.

LP use is 200 lb per year at a cost of $300
I just switched suppliers and LP going forward will be $180/yr.
I guessed that $300 per year transferred to electric bill from the LP 
would pay for the Lektricity.
An electronic ignition COULD be added to the current water heater, 
but that is NOT cheap.


I do not know the temp of incoming water.
Well is 30' sand point or 20' sand point (2 available)
I have a 30 gal tempering tank available.  I had planned to use it as 
an extra pressure tank.

The supply house suggested a tempering tank.
I have a friend who has used rooftop solar panels available.  I have 
not asked the price/condition.  In general, I am averse to putting 
holes in a perfectly good roof.   It there was a way to suspend them 
without puncturing the roof, i'd be all over it. I've considered an 
attic tempering tank, but the expense/payoff does not seem to make it 
worthwhile. (considering potential water damage)


I don't know the final outcome of this discussion yet, but I am 
leaning toward keeping the current heater.




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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-28 Thread Curley McLain via Mercedes
That has not been my experience.   THe 43 yo water heater has crapped 
out a TC every 21 or 22 years.  the electronic ign crapped out once in 
under a year, and again in another 8-10 years.


Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote on 6/28/19 8:50 AM:

Water heaters are about the last remaining place where standing pilots make 
sense.
The heat from the pilot flame ends up in the water, so there's absolutely no 
cost to it, aside from periodic thermocouple replacements. (flame sensors in 
electric ignition appliances last much longer than thermocouples that live in 
the flame of the pilot light)

Mitch.




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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-28 Thread OK Don via Mercedes
We have an old double oven Maytag with a smooth surface electric stove top
that works great, but SWMBO wants an induction stove top, so we might be
shopping some day. We also have a propane range in the outdoor kitchen,
beside the wood fired clay oven/smoker - but the mice decided to eat the
wiring since we last used it last fall, so the oven won't light - it heats
an element somewhere to light the gas for the oven.

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 3:02 PM Dan--- via Mercedes 
wrote:

> I think our first induction cooktop was a GE, current one is a Maytag.
>
> The GEs worked great, the Maytag cooktop works great but the double
> convection oven it’s a part of has some quirks that have never been
> resolved.
>
> It has a small upper oven with one rack, which is great for small or
> single items. It preheats quickly and does a good job.
>
> The lower large oven, which is also a convection oven, is fussy. You turn
> it on and it says it’s preheating, but never reaches the desired
> temperature - it just shows that it’s preheating and sticks at 320F, for
> example, for a 350F setpoint. If you’re living right and it does make it to
> temperature, for goodness sakes, don’t change it! You’ll get the same
> behavior - perpetual preheating.
>
> Maytag has messed with it to the point of tossing up their hands and
> walking away. We tried to get them to replace it nearly three years down
> the road, the whole time repairs having been made to no avail, then
> crickets.
>
> Filing in small claims court for a resolution got their attention. I think
> we got about 75% of the purchase price plus costs, since parts of it *did*
> work. They still refused to replace it.
>
> We still have it and it’s used daily, except the ovens. We have a gas oven
> in our outdoor kitchen that we use most of the year so we don’t heat up the
> house.
>
> -D
>
> > On Jun 28, 2019, at 1:48 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > Our Whirlpool Gold induction cooktop was a lot of trouble at first,
> > requiring numerous service calls and several episodes of broken cooktop -
> > waiting a week or two for parts - find a different way to cook until
> > fixed.  All parts and labor were covered under warranty, and at this
> point
> > every signal circuit inside the cooktop has been replaced twice or more.
> > Not covered: the frustration of a very un-friendly customer service
> > experience.  Never were any of the parts in stock locally, we always had
> to
> > wait, and no customer diagnosis allowed - had to schedule a tech to visit
> > and confirm "yep - it's dead, send more replacement parts" even though
> the
> > phone support to me (the homeowner) ran exactly the same tests that the
> > professional phone support to the tech did, and reached the same
> > conclusion.
> >
> > Stove would die.  Schedule tech for next available visit (usually about a
> > week out), tech would confirm it's dead and order parts, wait a week or
> two
> > for parts, could not schedule a visit until parts arrived, so wait up to
> > another week for tech to arrive with parts and _hopefully_ fix the stove.
> >
> > The good news: It has made it almost a year now with nary a hiccup, so I
> > think we're finally good.
> >
> > Uses far less power, is really easy to clean up, heats up really fast.
> >
> > Inconvenient: ferrous pots work best, anything else needs an adapter
> plate
> > (a steel plate) to transfer the heat to the pot, so efficiency is lost.
> > -
> > Max
> > Charleston SC
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 12:59 PM Dan--- via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Two words: Induction cooktop.
> >>
> >> We’ve had one for years, and they heat as quickly as gas and are just as
> >> adjustable as far as temperature.
> >>
> >> -D
> >>
> >>> On Jun 28, 2019, at 12:48 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
> >> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I think a lot of people are irrationally afraid of gas stoves, that
> >> they'll "start a fire" or something.
> >>> The worst kitchen accident I've personally witnessed was caused when
> one
> >> of Angie's friends was melting beeswax on an electric stove, this was
> the
> >> old type circular burner stove. She dripped some liquid was onto the
> burner
> >> which immediately caught fire, blackened the ceiling before anybody
> could
> >> move. Fortunately she had only spilled a little but the noise and bright
> >> fire was pretty scary, we all went and had a sit down for a few minutes
> >> afterward.
> >>> I don't think a gas stove would have had that fire as there wouldn't
> >> have been a hot surface for the liquid wax to get heated up on. I think
> >> it'd have just passed through the flame and puddled in the stove.
> >>> -Curt
> >>>
> >>>   On Friday, June 28, 2019, 11:25:09 AM EDT, Randy Bennell via Mercedes
> >>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Is she used to using an electric stove? Most people prefer gas if they
> >>> have it for a while. Heats faster and has more infinite control.

Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-28 Thread Mountain Man via Mercedes
-Curt wrote:
> When our current electric stove quits I'm getting an antique gas stove.

We had an antique stove - Chambers cast iron oven - turn it on at
highest setting for 20-minutes, turn it off, the roast sits for hours
and comes out tender as desired.  Maybe it is not antique, but it was
nice.
tin

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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-28 Thread Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
We have a Maytag range like that. It has the small 1 rack over in the top but 
it’s not convection. The full size oven in the bottom is convection. We have 
not had any problems with it so far, knock on wood. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 28, 2019, at 3:02 PM, Dan--- via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> I think our first induction cooktop was a GE, current one is a Maytag.
> 
> The GEs worked great, the Maytag cooktop works great but the double 
> convection oven it’s a part of has some quirks that have never been resolved.
> 
> It has a small upper oven with one rack, which is great for small or single 
> items. It preheats quickly and does a good job.
> 
> The lower large oven, which is also a convection oven, is fussy. You turn it 
> on and it says it’s preheating, but never reaches the desired temperature - 
> it just shows that it’s preheating and sticks at 320F, for example, for a 
> 350F setpoint. If you’re living right and it does make it to temperature, for 
> goodness sakes, don’t change it! You’ll get the same behavior - perpetual 
> preheating.
> 
> Maytag has messed with it to the point of tossing up their hands and walking 
> away. We tried to get them to replace it nearly three years down the road, 
> the whole time repairs having been made to no avail, then crickets.
> 
> Filing in small claims court for a resolution got their attention. I think we 
> got about 75% of the purchase price plus costs, since parts of it *did* work. 
> They still refused to replace it.
> 
> We still have it and it’s used daily, except the ovens. We have a gas oven in 
> our outdoor kitchen that we use most of the year so we don’t heat up the 
> house.
> 
> -D
> 
>> On Jun 28, 2019, at 1:48 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Our Whirlpool Gold induction cooktop was a lot of trouble at first,
>> requiring numerous service calls and several episodes of broken cooktop -
>> waiting a week or two for parts - find a different way to cook until
>> fixed.  All parts and labor were covered under warranty, and at this point
>> every signal circuit inside the cooktop has been replaced twice or more.
>> Not covered: the frustration of a very un-friendly customer service
>> experience.  Never were any of the parts in stock locally, we always had to
>> wait, and no customer diagnosis allowed - had to schedule a tech to visit
>> and confirm "yep - it's dead, send more replacement parts" even though the
>> phone support to me (the homeowner) ran exactly the same tests that the
>> professional phone support to the tech did, and reached the same
>> conclusion.
>> 
>> Stove would die.  Schedule tech for next available visit (usually about a
>> week out), tech would confirm it's dead and order parts, wait a week or two
>> for parts, could not schedule a visit until parts arrived, so wait up to
>> another week for tech to arrive with parts and _hopefully_ fix the stove.
>> 
>> The good news: It has made it almost a year now with nary a hiccup, so I
>> think we're finally good.
>> 
>> Uses far less power, is really easy to clean up, heats up really fast.
>> 
>> Inconvenient: ferrous pots work best, anything else needs an adapter plate
>> (a steel plate) to transfer the heat to the pot, so efficiency is lost.
>> -
>> Max
>> Charleston SC
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 12:59 PM Dan--- via Mercedes 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Two words: Induction cooktop.
>>> 
>>> We’ve had one for years, and they heat as quickly as gas and are just as
>>> adjustable as far as temperature.
>>> 
>>> -D
>>> 
 On Jun 28, 2019, at 12:48 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
>>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
 
 I think a lot of people are irrationally afraid of gas stoves, that
>>> they'll "start a fire" or something.
 The worst kitchen accident I've personally witnessed was caused when one
>>> of Angie's friends was melting beeswax on an electric stove, this was the
>>> old type circular burner stove. She dripped some liquid was onto the burner
>>> which immediately caught fire, blackened the ceiling before anybody could
>>> move. Fortunately she had only spilled a little but the noise and bright
>>> fire was pretty scary, we all went and had a sit down for a few minutes
>>> afterward.
 I don't think a gas stove would have had that fire as there wouldn't
>>> have been a hot surface for the liquid wax to get heated up on. I think
>>> it'd have just passed through the flame and puddled in the stove.
 -Curt
 
  On Friday, June 28, 2019, 11:25:09 AM EDT, Randy Bennell via Mercedes
>>>  wrote:
 
 Is she used to using an electric stove? Most people prefer gas if they
 have it for a while. Heats faster and has more infinite control.
 We do not have a gas stove but have considered getting one.
 
 
> On 28/06/2019 8:40 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:
> Craig, and everyone else:
> 
> Thanks for the input.  I have been happy to light pilots or burners
> in exchange for 

Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-28 Thread Dan--- via Mercedes
I think our first induction cooktop was a GE, current one is a Maytag.

The GEs worked great, the Maytag cooktop works great but the double convection 
oven it’s a part of has some quirks that have never been resolved.

It has a small upper oven with one rack, which is great for small or single 
items. It preheats quickly and does a good job.

The lower large oven, which is also a convection oven, is fussy. You turn it on 
and it says it’s preheating, but never reaches the desired temperature - it 
just shows that it’s preheating and sticks at 320F, for example, for a 350F 
setpoint. If you’re living right and it does make it to temperature, for 
goodness sakes, don’t change it! You’ll get the same behavior - perpetual 
preheating.

Maytag has messed with it to the point of tossing up their hands and walking 
away. We tried to get them to replace it nearly three years down the road, the 
whole time repairs having been made to no avail, then crickets.

Filing in small claims court for a resolution got their attention. I think we 
got about 75% of the purchase price plus costs, since parts of it *did* work. 
They still refused to replace it.

We still have it and it’s used daily, except the ovens. We have a gas oven in 
our outdoor kitchen that we use most of the year so we don’t heat up the house.

-D

> On Jun 28, 2019, at 1:48 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Our Whirlpool Gold induction cooktop was a lot of trouble at first,
> requiring numerous service calls and several episodes of broken cooktop -
> waiting a week or two for parts - find a different way to cook until
> fixed.  All parts and labor were covered under warranty, and at this point
> every signal circuit inside the cooktop has been replaced twice or more.
> Not covered: the frustration of a very un-friendly customer service
> experience.  Never were any of the parts in stock locally, we always had to
> wait, and no customer diagnosis allowed - had to schedule a tech to visit
> and confirm "yep - it's dead, send more replacement parts" even though the
> phone support to me (the homeowner) ran exactly the same tests that the
> professional phone support to the tech did, and reached the same
> conclusion.
> 
> Stove would die.  Schedule tech for next available visit (usually about a
> week out), tech would confirm it's dead and order parts, wait a week or two
> for parts, could not schedule a visit until parts arrived, so wait up to
> another week for tech to arrive with parts and _hopefully_ fix the stove.
> 
> The good news: It has made it almost a year now with nary a hiccup, so I
> think we're finally good.
> 
> Uses far less power, is really easy to clean up, heats up really fast.
> 
> Inconvenient: ferrous pots work best, anything else needs an adapter plate
> (a steel plate) to transfer the heat to the pot, so efficiency is lost.
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 12:59 PM Dan--- via Mercedes 
> wrote:
> 
>> Two words: Induction cooktop.
>> 
>> We’ve had one for years, and they heat as quickly as gas and are just as
>> adjustable as far as temperature.
>> 
>> -D
>> 
>>> On Jun 28, 2019, at 12:48 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I think a lot of people are irrationally afraid of gas stoves, that
>> they'll "start a fire" or something.
>>> The worst kitchen accident I've personally witnessed was caused when one
>> of Angie's friends was melting beeswax on an electric stove, this was the
>> old type circular burner stove. She dripped some liquid was onto the burner
>> which immediately caught fire, blackened the ceiling before anybody could
>> move. Fortunately she had only spilled a little but the noise and bright
>> fire was pretty scary, we all went and had a sit down for a few minutes
>> afterward.
>>> I don't think a gas stove would have had that fire as there wouldn't
>> have been a hot surface for the liquid wax to get heated up on. I think
>> it'd have just passed through the flame and puddled in the stove.
>>> -Curt
>>> 
>>>   On Friday, June 28, 2019, 11:25:09 AM EDT, Randy Bennell via Mercedes
>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Is she used to using an electric stove? Most people prefer gas if they
>>> have it for a while. Heats faster and has more infinite control.
>>> We do not have a gas stove but have considered getting one.
>>> 
>>> 
 On 28/06/2019 8:40 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:
 Craig, and everyone else:
 
 Thanks for the input.  I have been happy to light pilots or burners
 in exchange for appliances that run when there is no lektrick.  A few
 yrs ago they buried the lektric service, and I put in a new 200A
 panel, so juice is available, and lektrick is much more reliable.  Now
 it only goes out if someone takes out a pole on the highway.
 
 I think the stove is the major gripe.  The pilot has not worked on it
 for at least 50 yrs.  When I offered to try to clean it up and get the
 pilot 

Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-28 Thread fmiser via Mercedes
> Dan--- wrote:

> Two words: Induction cooktop.

Two words: glass pans.

I _like_ my propane stovetop.  And locally stored energy source.

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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-28 Thread Meade Dillon via Mercedes
Our Whirlpool Gold induction cooktop was a lot of trouble at first,
requiring numerous service calls and several episodes of broken cooktop -
waiting a week or two for parts - find a different way to cook until
fixed.  All parts and labor were covered under warranty, and at this point
every signal circuit inside the cooktop has been replaced twice or more.
Not covered: the frustration of a very un-friendly customer service
experience.  Never were any of the parts in stock locally, we always had to
wait, and no customer diagnosis allowed - had to schedule a tech to visit
and confirm "yep - it's dead, send more replacement parts" even though the
phone support to me (the homeowner) ran exactly the same tests that the
professional phone support to the tech did, and reached the same
conclusion.

Stove would die.  Schedule tech for next available visit (usually about a
week out), tech would confirm it's dead and order parts, wait a week or two
for parts, could not schedule a visit until parts arrived, so wait up to
another week for tech to arrive with parts and _hopefully_ fix the stove.

The good news: It has made it almost a year now with nary a hiccup, so I
think we're finally good.

Uses far less power, is really easy to clean up, heats up really fast.

Inconvenient: ferrous pots work best, anything else needs an adapter plate
(a steel plate) to transfer the heat to the pot, so efficiency is lost.
-
Max
Charleston SC


On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 12:59 PM Dan--- via Mercedes 
wrote:

> Two words: Induction cooktop.
>
> We’ve had one for years, and they heat as quickly as gas and are just as
> adjustable as far as temperature.
>
> -D
>
> > On Jun 28, 2019, at 12:48 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > I think a lot of people are irrationally afraid of gas stoves, that
> they'll "start a fire" or something.
> > The worst kitchen accident I've personally witnessed was caused when one
> of Angie's friends was melting beeswax on an electric stove, this was the
> old type circular burner stove. She dripped some liquid was onto the burner
> which immediately caught fire, blackened the ceiling before anybody could
> move. Fortunately she had only spilled a little but the noise and bright
> fire was pretty scary, we all went and had a sit down for a few minutes
> afterward.
> > I don't think a gas stove would have had that fire as there wouldn't
> have been a hot surface for the liquid wax to get heated up on. I think
> it'd have just passed through the flame and puddled in the stove.
> > -Curt
> >
> >On Friday, June 28, 2019, 11:25:09 AM EDT, Randy Bennell via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> >
> > Is she used to using an electric stove? Most people prefer gas if they
> > have it for a while. Heats faster and has more infinite control.
> > We do not have a gas stove but have considered getting one.
> >
> >
> >> On 28/06/2019 8:40 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:
> >> Craig, and everyone else:
> >>
> >> Thanks for the input.  I have been happy to light pilots or burners
> >> in exchange for appliances that run when there is no lektrick.  A few
> >> yrs ago they buried the lektric service, and I put in a new 200A
> >> panel, so juice is available, and lektrick is much more reliable.  Now
> >> it only goes out if someone takes out a pole on the highway.
> >>
> >> I think the stove is the major gripe.  The pilot has not worked on it
> >> for at least 50 yrs.  When I offered to try to clean it up and get the
> >> pilot working a few yrs ago she didn't want me to.  We have a new
> >> kitchen design that can accommodate a 30" lektrick stove, and we have
> >> a 30" lektrick stove already.   So, that gripe will go away.
> >>
> >> The current water heater is ok.   I have a spare available (used 30
> >> gal LP)  (both are over 40 yrs old, but used seasonally)  my rule is
> >> to use/repair them until they leak.
> >> I am redoing the plumbing to PEX, and have a little closet for the
> >> water (pex manifolds) with space for a tankless. In this, I will move
> >> the current heater a few inches so it will take up less space.
> >> L
>
>
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>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-28 Thread Meade Dillon via Mercedes
Would electronic ignition be cheaper than a new water heater?
-
Max
Charleston SC


On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 9:41 AM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>
> An electronic ignition COULD be added to the current water heater, but
> that is NOT cheap.
>
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-28 Thread Dan--- via Mercedes
Exactly. Not a concern for me.

-D

> On Jun 28, 2019, at 1:05 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
> 
> And when the power is out unless you've got a great big generator you're 
> down...
> 
> When our current electric stove quits I'm getting an antique gas stove. I 
> don't want it to plug into electricity at all, if I need a timer I'll crank 
> one. I want a stove just like the one I've got at camp but bigger...
> 
> -Curt
> 
> On Friday, June 28, 2019, 12:59:31 PM EDT, Dan--- via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Two words: Induction cooktop.
> 
> We’ve had one for years, and they heat as quickly as gas and are just as 
> adjustable as far as temperature.
> 
> -D
> 
> > On Jun 28, 2019, at 12:48 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > I think a lot of people are irrationally afraid of gas stoves, that they'll 
> > "start a fire" or something.
> > The worst kitchen accident I've personally witnessed was caused when one of 
> > Angie's friends was melting beeswax on an electric stove, this was the old 
> > type circular burner stove. She dripped some liquid was onto the burner 
> > which immediately caught fire, blackened the ceiling before anybody could 
> > move. Fortunately she had only spilled a little but the noise and bright 
> > fire was pretty scary, we all went and had a sit down for a few minutes 
> > afterward.
> > I don't think a gas stove would have had that fire as there wouldn't have 
> > been a hot surface for the liquid wax to get heated up on. I think it'd 
> > have just passed through the flame and puddled in the stove.
> > -Curt
> > 
> >On Friday, June 28, 2019, 11:25:09 AM EDT, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
> >  wrote:  
> > 
> > Is she used to using an electric stove? Most people prefer gas if they 
> > have it for a while. Heats faster and has more infinite control.
> > We do not have a gas stove but have considered getting one.
> > 
> > 
> >> On 28/06/2019 8:40 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:
> >> Craig, and everyone else:
> >> 
> >> Thanks for the input.  I have been happy to light pilots or burners  
> >> in exchange for appliances that run when there is no lektrick.  A few 
> >> yrs ago they buried the lektric service, and I put in a new 200A 
> >> panel, so juice is available, and lektrick is much more reliable.  Now 
> >> it only goes out if someone takes out a pole on the highway.
> >> 
> >> I think the stove is the major gripe.  The pilot has not worked on it 
> >> for at least 50 yrs.  When I offered to try to clean it up and get the 
> >> pilot working a few yrs ago she didn't want me to.  We have a new 
> >> kitchen design that can accommodate a 30" lektrick stove, and we have 
> >> a 30" lektrick stove already.  So, that gripe will go away.
> >> 
> >> The current water heater is ok.  I have a spare available (used 30 
> >> gal LP)  (both are over 40 yrs old, but used seasonally)  my rule is 
> >> to use/repair them until they leak.
> >> I am redoing the plumbing to PEX, and have a little closet for the 
> >> water (pex manifolds) with space for a tankless. In this, I will move 
> >> the current heater a few inches so it will take up less space.
> >> L
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-28 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
 And when the power is out unless you've got a great big generator you're 
down...
When our current electric stove quits I'm getting an antique gas stove. I don't 
want it to plug into electricity at all, if I need a timer I'll crank one. I 
want a stove just like the one I've got at camp but bigger...
-Curt

On Friday, June 28, 2019, 12:59:31 PM EDT, Dan--- via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 Two words: Induction cooktop.

We’ve had one for years, and they heat as quickly as gas and are just as 
adjustable as far as temperature.

-D

> On Jun 28, 2019, at 12:48 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I think a lot of people are irrationally afraid of gas stoves, that they'll 
> "start a fire" or something.
> The worst kitchen accident I've personally witnessed was caused when one of 
> Angie's friends was melting beeswax on an electric stove, this was the old 
> type circular burner stove. She dripped some liquid was onto the burner which 
> immediately caught fire, blackened the ceiling before anybody could move. 
> Fortunately she had only spilled a little but the noise and bright fire was 
> pretty scary, we all went and had a sit down for a few minutes afterward.
> I don't think a gas stove would have had that fire as there wouldn't have 
> been a hot surface for the liquid wax to get heated up on. I think it'd have 
> just passed through the flame and puddled in the stove.
> -Curt
> 
>    On Friday, June 28, 2019, 11:25:09 AM EDT, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
> wrote:  
> 
> Is she used to using an electric stove? Most people prefer gas if they 
> have it for a while. Heats faster and has more infinite control.
> We do not have a gas stove but have considered getting one.
> 
> 
>> On 28/06/2019 8:40 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:
>> Craig, and everyone else:
>> 
>> Thanks for the input.  I have been happy to light pilots or burners  
>> in exchange for appliances that run when there is no lektrick.  A few 
>> yrs ago they buried the lektric service, and I put in a new 200A 
>> panel, so juice is available, and lektrick is much more reliable.  Now 
>> it only goes out if someone takes out a pole on the highway.
>> 
>> I think the stove is the major gripe.  The pilot has not worked on it 
>> for at least 50 yrs.  When I offered to try to clean it up and get the 
>> pilot working a few yrs ago she didn't want me to.  We have a new 
>> kitchen design that can accommodate a 30" lektrick stove, and we have 
>> a 30" lektrick stove already.  So, that gripe will go away.
>> 
>> The current water heater is ok.  I have a spare available (used 30 
>> gal LP)  (both are over 40 yrs old, but used seasonally)  my rule is 
>> to use/repair them until they leak.
>> I am redoing the plumbing to PEX, and have a little closet for the 
>> water (pex manifolds) with space for a tankless. In this, I will move 
>> the current heater a few inches so it will take up less space.
>> L


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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-28 Thread Dan--- via Mercedes
Two words: Induction cooktop.

We’ve had one for years, and they heat as quickly as gas and are just as 
adjustable as far as temperature.

-D

> On Jun 28, 2019, at 12:48 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I think a lot of people are irrationally afraid of gas stoves, that they'll 
> "start a fire" or something.
> The worst kitchen accident I've personally witnessed was caused when one of 
> Angie's friends was melting beeswax on an electric stove, this was the old 
> type circular burner stove. She dripped some liquid was onto the burner which 
> immediately caught fire, blackened the ceiling before anybody could move. 
> Fortunately she had only spilled a little but the noise and bright fire was 
> pretty scary, we all went and had a sit down for a few minutes afterward.
> I don't think a gas stove would have had that fire as there wouldn't have 
> been a hot surface for the liquid wax to get heated up on. I think it'd have 
> just passed through the flame and puddled in the stove.
> -Curt
> 
>On Friday, June 28, 2019, 11:25:09 AM EDT, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
>  wrote:  
> 
> Is she used to using an electric stove? Most people prefer gas if they 
> have it for a while. Heats faster and has more infinite control.
> We do not have a gas stove but have considered getting one.
> 
> 
>> On 28/06/2019 8:40 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:
>> Craig, and everyone else:
>> 
>> Thanks for the input.  I have been happy to light pilots or burners  
>> in exchange for appliances that run when there is no lektrick.  A few 
>> yrs ago they buried the lektric service, and I put in a new 200A 
>> panel, so juice is available, and lektrick is much more reliable.  Now 
>> it only goes out if someone takes out a pole on the highway.
>> 
>> I think the stove is the major gripe.  The pilot has not worked on it 
>> for at least 50 yrs.  When I offered to try to clean it up and get the 
>> pilot working a few yrs ago she didn't want me to.  We have a new 
>> kitchen design that can accommodate a 30" lektrick stove, and we have 
>> a 30" lektrick stove already.   So, that gripe will go away.
>> 
>> The current water heater is ok.   I have a spare available (used 30 
>> gal LP)  (both are over 40 yrs old, but used seasonally)  my rule is 
>> to use/repair them until they leak.
>> I am redoing the plumbing to PEX, and have a little closet for the 
>> water (pex manifolds) with space for a tankless. In this, I will move 
>> the current heater a few inches so it will take up less space.
>> L


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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-28 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
 I think a lot of people are irrationally afraid of gas stoves, that they'll 
"start a fire" or something.
The worst kitchen accident I've personally witnessed was caused when one of 
Angie's friends was melting beeswax on an electric stove, this was the old type 
circular burner stove. She dripped some liquid was onto the burner which 
immediately caught fire, blackened the ceiling before anybody could move. 
Fortunately she had only spilled a little but the noise and bright fire was 
pretty scary, we all went and had a sit down for a few minutes afterward.
I don't think a gas stove would have had that fire as there wouldn't have been 
a hot surface for the liquid wax to get heated up on. I think it'd have just 
passed through the flame and puddled in the stove.
-Curt

On Friday, June 28, 2019, 11:25:09 AM EDT, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 Is she used to using an electric stove? Most people prefer gas if they 
have it for a while. Heats faster and has more infinite control.
We do not have a gas stove but have considered getting one.


On 28/06/2019 8:40 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:
> Craig, and everyone else:
>
> Thanks for the input.  I have been happy to light pilots or burners  
> in exchange for appliances that run when there is no lektrick.  A few 
> yrs ago they buried the lektric service, and I put in a new 200A 
> panel, so juice is available, and lektrick is much more reliable.  Now 
> it only goes out if someone takes out a pole on the highway.
>
> I think the stove is the major gripe.  The pilot has not worked on it 
> for at least 50 yrs.  When I offered to try to clean it up and get the 
> pilot working a few yrs ago she didn't want me to.  We have a new 
> kitchen design that can accommodate a 30" lektrick stove, and we have 
> a 30" lektrick stove already.   So, that gripe will go away.
>
> The current water heater is ok.   I have a spare available (used 30 
> gal LP)  (both are over 40 yrs old, but used seasonally)  my rule is 
> to use/repair them until they leak.
> I am redoing the plumbing to PEX, and have a little closet for the 
> water (pex manifolds) with space for a tankless. In this, I will move 
> the current heater a few inches so it will take up less space.
> LP use is 200 lb per year at a cost of $300
> I just switched suppliers and LP going forward will be $180/yr.
> I guessed that $300 per year transferred to electric bill from the LP 
> would pay for the Lektricity.
> An electronic ignition COULD be added to the current water heater, but 
> that is NOT cheap.
>
> I do not know the temp of incoming water.
> Well is 30' sand point or 20' sand point (2 available)
> I have a 30 gal tempering tank available.  I had planned to use it as 
> an extra pressure tank.
> The supply house suggested a tempering tank.
> I have a friend who has used rooftop solar panels available.  I have 
> not asked the price/condition.  In general, I am averse to putting 
> holes in a perfectly good roof.   It there was a way to suspend them 
> without puncturing the roof, i'd be all over it. I've considered an 
> attic tempering tank, but the expense/payoff does not seem to make it 
> worthwhile. (considering potential water damage)
>
> I don't know the final outcome of this discussion yet, but I am 
> leaning toward keeping the current heater.
>
>
>
> ___ 


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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-28 Thread Randy Bennell via Mercedes
Is she used to using an electric stove? Most people prefer gas if they 
have it for a while. Heats faster and has more infinite control.

We do not have a gas stove but have considered getting one.


On 28/06/2019 8:40 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:

Craig, and everyone else:

Thanks for the input.  I have been happy to light pilots or burners  
in exchange for appliances that run when there is no lektrick.  A few 
yrs ago they buried the lektric service, and I put in a new 200A 
panel, so juice is available, and lektrick is much more reliable.  Now 
it only goes out if someone takes out a pole on the highway.


I think the stove is the major gripe.  The pilot has not worked on it 
for at least 50 yrs.  When I offered to try to clean it up and get the 
pilot working a few yrs ago she didn't want me to.  We have a new 
kitchen design that can accommodate a 30" lektrick stove, and we have 
a 30" lektrick stove already.   So, that gripe will go away.


The current water heater is ok.   I have a spare available (used 30 
gal LP)  (both are over 40 yrs old, but used seasonally)  my rule is 
to use/repair them until they leak.
I am redoing the plumbing to PEX, and have a little closet for the 
water (pex manifolds) with space for a tankless. In this, I will move 
the current heater a few inches so it will take up less space.

LP use is 200 lb per year at a cost of $300
I just switched suppliers and LP going forward will be $180/yr.
I guessed that $300 per year transferred to electric bill from the LP 
would pay for the Lektricity.
An electronic ignition COULD be added to the current water heater, but 
that is NOT cheap.


I do not know the temp of incoming water.
Well is 30' sand point or 20' sand point (2 available)
I have a 30 gal tempering tank available.  I had planned to use it as 
an extra pressure tank.

The supply house suggested a tempering tank.
I have a friend who has used rooftop solar panels available.  I have 
not asked the price/condition.  In general, I am averse to putting 
holes in a perfectly good roof.   It there was a way to suspend them 
without puncturing the roof, i'd be all over it. I've considered an 
attic tempering tank, but the expense/payoff does not seem to make it 
worthwhile. (considering potential water damage)


I don't know the final outcome of this discussion yet, but I am 
leaning toward keeping the current heater.




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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-28 Thread Jim Cathey via Mercedes
> The heat from the pilot flame ends up in the water, so there's absolutely no 
> cost to it,

In our old camper I never even turned the water heater off the pilot-only 
setting.
Get to our destination, light the pilot, and by morning the tank is hot enough.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-28 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes


Water heaters are about the last remaining place where standing pilots make 
sense. 
The heat from the pilot flame ends up in the water, so there's absolutely no 
cost to it, aside from periodic thermocouple replacements. (flame sensors in 
electric ignition appliances last much longer than thermocouples that live in 
the flame of the pilot light)

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-28 Thread Jim Cathey via Mercedes
> I always place water hotters where a leak just goes down the drain.   That is 
> a common practice this part of the country.

When I replaced mine (again), I put it in a pan with a pipe over to the floor 
drain.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-28 Thread Curley McLain via Mercedes

Craig, and everyone else:

Thanks for the input.  I have been happy to light pilots or burners  in 
exchange for appliances that run when there is no lektrick.  A few yrs 
ago they buried the lektric service, and I put in a new 200A panel, so 
juice is available, and lektrick is much more reliable.  Now it only 
goes out if someone takes out a pole on the highway.


I think the stove is the major gripe.  The pilot has not worked on it 
for at least 50 yrs.  When I offered to try to clean it up and get the 
pilot working a few yrs ago she didn't want me to.  We have a new 
kitchen design that can accommodate a 30" lektrick stove, and we have a 
30" lektrick stove already.   So, that gripe will go away.


The current water heater is ok.   I have a spare available (used 30 gal 
LP)  (both are over 40 yrs old, but used seasonally)  my rule is to 
use/repair them until they leak.
I am redoing the plumbing to PEX, and have a little closet for the water 
(pex manifolds) with space for a tankless. In this, I will move the 
current heater a few inches so it will take up less space.

LP use is 200 lb per year at a cost of $300
I just switched suppliers and LP going forward will be $180/yr.
I guessed that $300 per year transferred to electric bill from the LP 
would pay for the Lektricity.
An electronic ignition COULD be added to the current water heater, but 
that is NOT cheap.


I do not know the temp of incoming water.
Well is 30' sand point or 20' sand point (2 available)
I have a 30 gal tempering tank available.  I had planned to use it as an 
extra pressure tank.

The supply house suggested a tempering tank.
I have a friend who has used rooftop solar panels available.  I have not 
asked the price/condition.  In general, I am averse to putting holes in 
a perfectly good roof.   It there was a way to suspend them without 
puncturing the roof, i'd be all over it.  I've considered an attic 
tempering tank, but the expense/payoff does not seem to make it 
worthwhile. (considering potential water damage)


I don't know the final outcome of this discussion yet, but I am leaning 
toward keeping the current heater.




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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-28 Thread Curley McLain via Mercedes
I always place water hotters where a leak just goes down the drain.   
That is a common practice this part of the country.


Clay Monroe via Mercedes wrote on 6/26/19 5:14 PM:

+1 on heaters aging out.

The tank we installed in 1996 had the melting dip tubes.  The tube got replaced 
a dozen years in after dissolving through the copper pipes.  Four years later 
the tank drained from a pinhole in the base.  A couple hundred gallons or 
initially hot water filled the basement.  Now I have the thing on a 15 year 
cycle.  Cheaper than rebuilding the basement


clay monroe





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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-27 Thread Randy Bennell via Mercedes
I have coffee with some old guys most mornings at McDonald's before I 
come to the office. They are all retired. About a week ago, one of them 
told us that his neighbour's son was killed the day before. He owned a 
construction company (trucks, backhoes, loaders etc) and they were doing 
a foundation repair on a building. He and 2 employees were down in a 
trench laying re-bar for a concrete pour when the trench caved in. The 
other 2 fellows jumped out but the business owner was buried. He was in 
his 50's. He must have known better than to do that, but trades people 
are often very careless. It becomes all about how quickly they can do a 
job in order to make more money and they take chances that they ought 
not to take. If it had been an employee that died instead of the owner, 
he would likely have been fined tens of thousands by the workplace 
safety department of the provincial government.



On 26/06/2019 3:33 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

Wow! That’s dangerous! My Dad always told me to never be in a trench any higher 
than my armpits, if that.

-D


On Jun 26, 2019, at 4:27 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes  
wrote:

I saw a crew putting in a water line this morning, you could just see their 
heads in the trench. It freezes pretty good here, in 2015 our neighbor's water 
froze twice between his house and the street.
That said my aunt and uncle have solar hot water and claim its the bee's knees. 
We've been considering it.
-Curt





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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-27 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
Or "eccy" for Economics.

On Wed, Jun 26, 2019, 8:26 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
wrote:

> Ouch!
>
> Please don’t use the term “genny” when referring to a generator.
>
> That’s like calling a sandwich a “sammie”.
>
> Thank you.
>
> -D
>
> > On Jun 26, 2019, at 6:56 PM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> >> It had two 50 A 240 VAC feeds
> >
> > The genny you'd need to take a warm shower would be 25kW or larger.
> > Not in the same ballpark as the common hardware store 5kW.
> >
> > -- Jim
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-26 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
Ouch!

Please don’t use the term “genny” when referring to a generator.

That’s like calling a sandwich a “sammie”.

Thank you.

-D

> On Jun 26, 2019, at 6:56 PM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
>> It had two 50 A 240 VAC feeds
> 
> The genny you'd need to take a warm shower would be 25kW or larger.
> Not in the same ballpark as the common hardware store 5kW.
> 
> -- Jim
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-26 Thread Jim Cathey via Mercedes
> It had two 50 A 240 VAC feeds

The genny you'd need to take a warm shower would be 25kW or larger.
Not in the same ballpark as the common hardware store 5kW.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-26 Thread Clay Monroe via Mercedes
+1 on heaters aging out.

The tank we installed in 1996 had the melting dip tubes.  The tube got replaced 
a dozen years in after dissolving through the copper pipes.  Four years later 
the tank drained from a pinhole in the base.  A couple hundred gallons or 
initially hot water filled the basement.  Now I have the thing on a 15 year 
cycle.  Cheaper than rebuilding the basement


clay monroe

> I turned my computer upside down and shook it, but the bookmark for what I'm 
> looking for didn't fall out.



> On Jun 26, 2019, at 8:09 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I was thinking that in the case of a water heater age plays into it. As I 
> understand it they do have a lifespan and when one leaks it can be pretty 
> terrible...
> If it were old (20 years?) I'd say replace it with the same again. The new 
> one will have better insulation and be more efficient. If its fairly new 
> (less than 10 years?) I'd leave it alone. Its that middle ground thats a 
> question...
> -Curt
> 
>On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:16:10 AM EDT, Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:  
> 
>> Would I be better off convincing her to leave the gas 30 gal heater be?
> 
> Has she never heard: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."  There is true 
> wisdom, there.
> 
> -- Jim
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-26 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
 I hadn't considered the idea but our soil is pretty sandy, a cave in wouldn't 
be so dangerous as somebody dropping something on you.
They were rolling what I assume is PEX from the street to the house, 2 guys in 
the trench managing the roll, a 3rd running a digger putting down sand under 
the pipe. I didn't stick around to see but I presume they went back and put 
sand directly over the pipe before filling in the trench.
-Curt

On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 4:34:32 PM EDT, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 Wow! That’s dangerous! My Dad always told me to never be in a trench any 
higher than my armpits, if that.

-D

> On Jun 26, 2019, at 4:27 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I saw a crew putting in a water line this morning, you could just see their 
> heads in the trench. It freezes pretty good here, in 2015 our neighbor's 
> water froze twice between his house and the street.
> That said my aunt and uncle have solar hot water and claim its the bee's 
> knees. We've been considering it.
> -Curt
> 
>    On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 4:03:11 PM EDT, Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes 
> wrote:  
> 
> We replaced an older, functioning gas tank unit a few years ago with a
> reputable new one. Just found from new owners that it failed. Old one would
> likely still be going strong I'm sure. Warranty covered the unit.
> 
> Now we run a navien gas tankless with integral recirc pump and smart timing
> on the pump. Happy so far. It is outside. Not sure it saves any money but
> no earthquake or rupture risk and never runs out of hot water.
> 
> Surprised no one is mentioning solar or attic preheat. A heat exchanger in
> the attic on the heater supply line with a fan would lower energy input
> considerably in summer. Same with a rooftop solar exchanger. Down here it
> never freezes, so it is pretty simple. People heat pools with rooftop solar
> water loops all the time.
> 
> On Wed, Jun 26, 2019, 8:10 AM Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
>>  I was thinking that in the case of a water heater age plays into it. As I
>> understand it they do have a lifespan and when one leaks it can be pretty
>> terrible...
>> If it were old (20 years?) I'd say replace it with the same again. The new
>> one will have better insulation and be more efficient. If its fairly new
>> (less than 10 years?) I'd leave it alone. Its that middle ground thats a
>> question...
>> -Curt
>> 
>>    On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:16:10 AM EDT, Jim Cathey via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> 
>>  > Would I be better off convincing her to leave the gas 30 gal heater be?
>> 
>> Has she never heard: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."  There is true
>> wisdom, there.
>> 
>> -- Jim
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
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>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
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>> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-26 Thread Clay Monroe via Mercedes
Based on the limited exposure I had with a week long rental cabin, the tanks 
are far too small to provide adequate heated water for more than one occupant.  

The tanks will spew out hot water for ages.  There just are far too many 
demands on the thing for it to do a decent job for more than one bathroom.  The 
heater in the cabin was supposed to be three gallon.  It was able to give a 
decent shower experience and no drop when the sink was used as well.  But, 
somebody in the kitchen or a second bathroom would create a significant drop in 
performance.  Add a dish washer or wash machine, and there was more brain power 
spent trying to map out usage than that instant shot of hot water could provide.

The tank was located mid-cabin, so that it served the main floor bath and 
kitchen.  Probably most used locations.  The travel to the other bathroom and 
washroom made for too long a travel down cold pipes.

clay

> On Jun 26, 2019, at 5:56 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> SWMBO decided we should throw out the gas water heater and get an electric 
> heater "so we don't have to light the pilot"   This was a bolt out of the 
> blue.  In the process, I looked at tankless electric water heaters.   The 
> point of use ones seem to be between 1.0 and 1.3 GPM, while "whole house" run 
> 3.0 to 3.6 GPH.  The max usage would probably be 2 people taking showers 
> while someone washes dishes.   Two people most of the time, and a max of 6.   
> The guy at the plmg supply said we'd not be happy with the tankless electric. 
>   The current 30 gal heater has always kept up, but we generally staggered 
> showers so both did not use water at the same time.
> 
> is 3 gpm realistic for a normal household?   Will 3 gpm rating really keep up 
> with 2 showers in the real world?
> 
> I can buy 3 Point of use 1.3 gpm heaters for the price of one 3 gpm whole 
> house heater.   I had thought of using 3 of these in a parallel setup to have 
> some redundancy (central, not POU)   Would this work as well as a single 
> heater in the real world?
> 
> Would I be better off convincing her to leave the gas 30 gal heater be?
> 
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clay monroe

> I turned my computer upside down and shook it, but the bookmark for what I'm 
> looking for didn't fall out.




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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-26 Thread Allan Streib via Mercedes
One thing about tankless "instant" heaters is that they don't play well
with some appliances. Our LG clothes washer cycles the water on and off
as it fills. It will fill for a few seconds, then tumble the clothes,
then fill for a few more seconds, over and over until it's happy with
the water level in the machine. You will never get hot water from a
tankless heater running it in short intervals like that.

Allan




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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-26 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
Wow! That’s dangerous! My Dad always told me to never be in a trench any higher 
than my armpits, if that.

-D

> On Jun 26, 2019, at 4:27 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I saw a crew putting in a water line this morning, you could just see their 
> heads in the trench. It freezes pretty good here, in 2015 our neighbor's 
> water froze twice between his house and the street.
> That said my aunt and uncle have solar hot water and claim its the bee's 
> knees. We've been considering it.
> -Curt
> 
>On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 4:03:11 PM EDT, Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes 
>  wrote:  
> 
> We replaced an older, functioning gas tank unit a few years ago with a
> reputable new one. Just found from new owners that it failed. Old one would
> likely still be going strong I'm sure. Warranty covered the unit.
> 
> Now we run a navien gas tankless with integral recirc pump and smart timing
> on the pump. Happy so far. It is outside. Not sure it saves any money but
> no earthquake or rupture risk and never runs out of hot water.
> 
> Surprised no one is mentioning solar or attic preheat. A heat exchanger in
> the attic on the heater supply line with a fan would lower energy input
> considerably in summer. Same with a rooftop solar exchanger. Down here it
> never freezes, so it is pretty simple. People heat pools with rooftop solar
> water loops all the time.
> 
> On Wed, Jun 26, 2019, 8:10 AM Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
>>   I was thinking that in the case of a water heater age plays into it. As I
>> understand it they do have a lifespan and when one leaks it can be pretty
>> terrible...
>> If it were old (20 years?) I'd say replace it with the same again. The new
>> one will have better insulation and be more efficient. If its fairly new
>> (less than 10 years?) I'd leave it alone. Its that middle ground thats a
>> question...
>> -Curt
>> 
>> On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:16:10 AM EDT, Jim Cathey via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> 
>>   > Would I be better off convincing her to leave the gas 30 gal heater be?
>> 
>> Has she never heard: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."  There is true
>> wisdom, there.
>> 
>> -- Jim
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
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>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
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>> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-26 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
 I saw a crew putting in a water line this morning, you could just see their 
heads in the trench. It freezes pretty good here, in 2015 our neighbor's water 
froze twice between his house and the street.
That said my aunt and uncle have solar hot water and claim its the bee's knees. 
We've been considering it.
-Curt

On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 4:03:11 PM EDT, Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 We replaced an older, functioning gas tank unit a few years ago with a
reputable new one. Just found from new owners that it failed. Old one would
likely still be going strong I'm sure. Warranty covered the unit.

Now we run a navien gas tankless with integral recirc pump and smart timing
on the pump. Happy so far. It is outside. Not sure it saves any money but
no earthquake or rupture risk and never runs out of hot water.

Surprised no one is mentioning solar or attic preheat. A heat exchanger in
the attic on the heater supply line with a fan would lower energy input
considerably in summer. Same with a rooftop solar exchanger. Down here it
never freezes, so it is pretty simple. People heat pools with rooftop solar
water loops all the time.

On Wed, Jun 26, 2019, 8:10 AM Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>  I was thinking that in the case of a water heater age plays into it. As I
> understand it they do have a lifespan and when one leaks it can be pretty
> terrible...
> If it were old (20 years?) I'd say replace it with the same again. The new
> one will have better insulation and be more efficient. If its fairly new
> (less than 10 years?) I'd leave it alone. Its that middle ground thats a
> question...
> -Curt
>
>    On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:16:10 AM EDT, Jim Cathey via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
>  > Would I be better off convincing her to leave the gas 30 gal heater be?
>
> Has she never heard: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."  There is true
> wisdom, there.
>
> -- Jim
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-26 Thread Allan Streib via Mercedes
Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes  writes:

> My apartment in Fiji in the Peace Corps had a primitive "instant on" 240
> volt hot water heater for the shower, but you always had to remember to run
> the water FIRST before flipping the switch and, conversely, shutting it off
> while the shower was still running.  Otherwise, it would burn out
> instantly.  The replacement cost for the heater element was very steep, in
> the context of my $82/monthly stipend, so I only made this mistake twice in
> 2 years..

Hm, wet in a shower flipping a 240v switch -- what could go wrong?

Allan

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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-26 Thread Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes
We replaced an older, functioning gas tank unit a few years ago with a
reputable new one. Just found from new owners that it failed. Old one would
likely still be going strong I'm sure. Warranty covered the unit.

Now we run a navien gas tankless with integral recirc pump and smart timing
on the pump. Happy so far. It is outside. Not sure it saves any money but
no earthquake or rupture risk and never runs out of hot water.

Surprised no one is mentioning solar or attic preheat. A heat exchanger in
the attic on the heater supply line with a fan would lower energy input
considerably in summer. Same with a rooftop solar exchanger. Down here it
never freezes, so it is pretty simple. People heat pools with rooftop solar
water loops all the time.

On Wed, Jun 26, 2019, 8:10 AM Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>  I was thinking that in the case of a water heater age plays into it. As I
> understand it they do have a lifespan and when one leaks it can be pretty
> terrible...
> If it were old (20 years?) I'd say replace it with the same again. The new
> one will have better insulation and be more efficient. If its fairly new
> (less than 10 years?) I'd leave it alone. Its that middle ground thats a
> question...
> -Curt
>
> On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:16:10 AM EDT, Jim Cathey via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
>  > Would I be better off convincing her to leave the gas 30 gal heater be?
>
> Has she never heard: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."  There is true
> wisdom, there.
>
> -- Jim
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-26 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
My apartment in Fiji in the Peace Corps had a primitive "instant on" 240
volt hot water heater for the shower, but you always had to remember to run
the water FIRST before flipping the switch and, conversely, shutting it off
while the shower was still running.  Otherwise, it would burn out
instantly.  The replacement cost for the heater element was very steep, in
the context of my $82/monthly stipend, so I only made this mistake twice in
2 years..

On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 1:23 PM Jim Cathey via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Don't forget that a tank water heater only draws about 4500 watts,
> so you can in fact heat it with the standard rope-pull generator, and
> take a hot shower during a power outage, with a bit of prep and planning.
> Not true of a tankless electric heater.
>
> -- Jim
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-26 Thread Jim Cathey via Mercedes
Don't forget that a tank water heater only draws about 4500 watts,
so you can in fact heat it with the standard rope-pull generator, and
take a hot shower during a power outage, with a bit of prep and planning.
Not true of a tankless electric heater.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-26 Thread OK Don via Mercedes
Exactly, I keep looking at the tankless heaters every time I have to deal
one of the tank ones. Even down here in OK the water is too cold in the
winter for anything other than the largest models, requiring new circuits
to be run, etc. The electric tank model is still the best bet where I live.

On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 10:28 AM Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> What is the source for your water? How cold is it?
> My recollection is that the tankless heaters do not last all that long
> if the water is very cold. Probably work fine in Florida.
>
>
> On 26/06/2019 7:56 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:
> > SWMBO decided we should throw out the gas water heater and get an
> > electric heater "so we don't have to light the pilot"   This was a
> > bolt out of the blue.  In the process, I looked at tankless electric
> > water heaters.   The point of use ones seem to be between 1.0 and 1.3
> > GPM, while "whole house" run 3.0 to 3.6 GPH.  The max usage would
> > probably be 2 people taking showers while someone washes dishes.   Two
> > people most of the time, and a max of 6. The guy at the plmg supply
> > said we'd not be happy with the tankless electric.   The current 30
> > gal heater has always kept up, but we generally staggered showers so
> > both did not use water at the same time.
> >
> > is 3 gpm realistic for a normal household?   Will 3 gpm rating really
> > keep up with 2 showers in the real world?
> >
> > I can buy 3 Point of use 1.3 gpm heaters for the price of one 3 gpm
> > whole house heater.   I had thought of using 3 of these in a parallel
> > setup to have some redundancy (central, not POU)   Would this work as
> > well as a single heater in the real world?
> >
> > Would I be better off convincing her to leave the gas 30 gal heater be?
> >
> > ___
>
>
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-- 
OK Don

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
pause and reflect." Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-26 Thread Randy Bennell via Mercedes

What is the source for your water? How cold is it?
My recollection is that the tankless heaters do not last all that long 
if the water is very cold. Probably work fine in Florida.



On 26/06/2019 7:56 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:
SWMBO decided we should throw out the gas water heater and get an 
electric heater "so we don't have to light the pilot"   This was a 
bolt out of the blue.  In the process, I looked at tankless electric 
water heaters.   The point of use ones seem to be between 1.0 and 1.3 
GPM, while "whole house" run 3.0 to 3.6 GPH.  The max usage would 
probably be 2 people taking showers while someone washes dishes.   Two 
people most of the time, and a max of 6. The guy at the plmg supply 
said we'd not be happy with the tankless electric.   The current 30 
gal heater has always kept up, but we generally staggered showers so 
both did not use water at the same time.


is 3 gpm realistic for a normal household?   Will 3 gpm rating really 
keep up with 2 showers in the real world?


I can buy 3 Point of use 1.3 gpm heaters for the price of one 3 gpm 
whole house heater.   I had thought of using 3 of these in a parallel 
setup to have some redundancy (central, not POU)   Would this work as 
well as a single heater in the real world?


Would I be better off convincing her to leave the gas 30 gal heater be?

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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-26 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
 I was thinking that in the case of a water heater age plays into it. As I 
understand it they do have a lifespan and when one leaks it can be pretty 
terrible...
If it were old (20 years?) I'd say replace it with the same again. The new one 
will have better insulation and be more efficient. If its fairly new (less than 
10 years?) I'd leave it alone. Its that middle ground thats a question...
-Curt

On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:16:10 AM EDT, Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 > Would I be better off convincing her to leave the gas 30 gal heater be?

Has she never heard: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."  There is true wisdom, 
there.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-26 Thread Jim Cathey via Mercedes
> Would I be better off convincing her to leave the gas 30 gal heater be?

Has she never heard: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."  There is true wisdom, 
there.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-26 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes
Heat pump hybrids can be good. 
Totally awesome if you're using them to cool your Florida garage. 
If they dehumidify, they might be nice in a 55 degree Michigan basement too, at 
least in the summer. 
But if they're in conditioned space in the winter, and you're paying to heat 
the air that the heat pump water heater is cooling, I wouldn't buy one. 

Tankless: Tankless gas can be nice, if the water is soft and they don't get all 
limed up inside. 
Tankless electric can force an upgrade of your house's electrical service. They 
run on two BIG circuit breakers, and if your service isn't oversized enough to 
take that in stride...

I'd either stick with a tanked gas heater, or go to tankless and keep it on 
gas, especially if it's in Iowa/MN/MI. 

If it's in LA/MS, at least take a look at the electric hybrids. 

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-26 Thread Floyd Thursby via Mercedes
You can mount electric tankless heaters at the point of use, like at the 
bathroom or kitchen sink or laundry, assuming you can get at the 
plumbing (and some electrons).  The gas on-demand heaters are not bad, 
unlimited hot water as long as you don't exceed the delivery rating.  
Those are a bit more problematic to install as you need to vent them so 
they need to be near a chimney or wall or mounted outside.


I see now these little 1 or 2 gallon point-of-use water heaters that 
deliver immediate hot water until the main supply reaches the use point.


On 6/26/19 8:56 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:
SWMBO decided we should throw out the gas water heater and get an 
electric heater "so we don't have to light the pilot"   This was a 
bolt out of the blue.  In the process, I looked at tankless electric 
water heaters.   The point of use ones seem to be between 1.0 and 1.3 
GPM, while "whole house" run 3.0 to 3.6 GPH.  The max usage would 
probably be 2 people taking showers while someone washes dishes.   Two 
people most of the time, and a max of 6. The guy at the plmg supply 
said we'd not be happy with the tankless electric.   The current 30 
gal heater has always kept up, but we generally staggered showers so 
both did not use water at the same time.


is 3 gpm realistic for a normal household?   Will 3 gpm rating really 
keep up with 2 showers in the real world?


I can buy 3 Point of use 1.3 gpm heaters for the price of one 3 gpm 
whole house heater.   I had thought of using 3 of these in a parallel 
setup to have some redundancy (central, not POU)   Would this work as 
well as a single heater in the real world?


Would I be better off convincing her to leave the gas 30 gal heater be?

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Re: [MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-26 Thread Dan--- via Mercedes
I put a 50 gallon electric hybrid tank heater in about a year and a half ago. 
Granted, my usage is very different (3-4 adults, a couple of which think a 
short shower is under 20 minutes) and we have the temperature setpoint of 130F.

I was a little leery of this thing due to the steep entry point, about $1100. 
I’m definitely on board, as my electrical consumption has definitely dropped, 
and we’ve yet to encounter an instance when the capacity was exceeded or the 
backup (electric elements) had to kick in.

Of course, the initial cost has to be factored in, being about twice the cost 
of a stock electric water heater, but at the current rate of consumption I can 
see us coming out ahead in the long run. This and I get the benefit of “free” 
air conditioning in the garage where it’s located.

I’m not convinced the electric demand heaters can do the job, or do it 
economically, but that’s just my take. Another consideration with them is the 
area where they’re being used and the temperature rise required during certain 
times of the year. That is, how cold is that water coming into the house in the 
dead of winter? Bringing 45F water up to 125F takes a lot more energy than 
taking 70F water to 125F...

-D

> On Jun 26, 2019, at 8:56 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> SWMBO decided we should throw out the gas water heater and get an electric 
> heater "so we don't have to light the pilot"   This was a bolt out of the 
> blue.  In the process, I looked at tankless electric water heaters.   The 
> point of use ones seem to be between 1.0 and 1.3 GPM, while "whole house" run 
> 3.0 to 3.6 GPH.  The max usage would probably be 2 people taking showers 
> while someone washes dishes.   Two people most of the time, and a max of 6.   
> The guy at the plmg supply said we'd not be happy with the tankless electric. 
>   The current 30 gal heater has always kept up, but we generally staggered 
> showers so both did not use water at the same time.
> 
> is 3 gpm realistic for a normal household?   Will 3 gpm rating really keep up 
> with 2 showers in the real world?
> 
> I can buy 3 Point of use 1.3 gpm heaters for the price of one 3 gpm whole 
> house heater.   I had thought of using 3 of these in a parallel setup to have 
> some redundancy (central, not POU)   Would this work as well as a single 
> heater in the real world?
> 
> Would I be better off convincing her to leave the gas 30 gal heater be?
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 


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[MBZ] OT tankless water heaters

2019-06-26 Thread Curley McLain via Mercedes
SWMBO decided we should throw out the gas water heater and get an 
electric heater "so we don't have to light the pilot"   This was a bolt 
out of the blue.  In the process, I looked at tankless electric water 
heaters.   The point of use ones seem to be between 1.0 and 1.3 GPM, 
while "whole house" run 3.0 to 3.6 GPH.  The max usage would probably be 
2 people taking showers while someone washes dishes.   Two people most 
of the time, and a max of 6.   The guy at the plmg supply said we'd not 
be happy with the tankless electric.   The current 30 gal heater has 
always kept up, but we generally staggered showers so both did not use 
water at the same time.


is 3 gpm realistic for a normal household?   Will 3 gpm rating really 
keep up with 2 showers in the real world?


I can buy 3 Point of use 1.3 gpm heaters for the price of one 3 gpm 
whole house heater.   I had thought of using 3 of these in a parallel 
setup to have some redundancy (central, not POU)   Would this work as 
well as a single heater in the real world?


Would I be better off convincing her to leave the gas 30 gal heater be?

___
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To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com