Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
All this talk of clipping tubes and solid state amps makes me think of the many experiments performed at the music store I worked at a while back. Of course we had to try every piece of gear out to make sure that it worked. Guitars, amps, speakers, whatever. There are companies making very complex, very high-end gear. I always found it amusing when people would come in looking for a pedal to give them a specific sound. At the time I was there Rage Against the Machine was very popular, and a lot of the young kids would ask what pedal he used to get his distortion. I had to tell them that he just turned up a tube amp. At which point I got the strangest look from all the 13 year olds wanting to sound like Tim C. The only way to explain was to crank up a tube amp, and play the crap out of it. A lot of what is being done now is refining what was done in the 60's with tube amps. Speaker cabinet design has been using old ideas as well. There is a company making transmission line enclosures as bass guitar amps. They are supposed to be flat. I didn't have any way to test that, but they were very good for certain kinds of rigs, and handled TONS of power. I had 1600 watts RMS through a cab rated at 400 RMS. As for a hybrid designs using tube pre-amps and solid state power, they can be very good sounding. It still isn't the same sound as having power amp tubes to drive to clipping. But in most situations the only person that will notice is the person playing through it. If they even hear it at all. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
I know the controllers. It's amazing how far storage has come. When I bought my ST225, it was huge at 20 MB (not 20 GB, for those who have not been involved in computers very long). Then I upgraded to a full height 40 MB ST251! My every day use cheap camera has a 512 MB Sandisk memory card, not at all large by today's standards! Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mitch Haley Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 7:29 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity Tom Hargrave wrote: > > You still have a functioning Seagate ST 225 & Seagate 251??? Hmm, I haven't tried to boot up the old 286 in a while, like maybe 8 years. Whole system worked fine in 1999, most of the parts were 12-15 years old then. I've got one of those extended slot (pre-pci) controllers so I can't try to run them in a modern computer. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.12/1203 - Release Date: 12/30/2007 11:27 AM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Tom Hargrave wrote: > > You still have a functioning Seagate ST 225 & Seagate 251??? Hmm, I haven't tried to boot up the old 286 in a while, like maybe 8 years. Whole system worked fine in 1999, most of the parts were 12-15 years old then. I've got one of those extended slot (pre-pci) controllers so I can't try to run them in a modern computer. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
You still have a functioning Seagate ST 225 & Seagate 251??? I had one of each with a Winchester drive controller. They made controllers for the smaller drives too, not just the large platter drives. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mitch Haley Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 12:47 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity OK Don wrote: > > I traded a C220 with lens for my first hard drive - an ST225. I've got a 225 or two if you want to trade another Mamiya for it. Also have the 40mb, I think it's a ST251. I believe my Dad still has a Winchester disk pack laying around, the platters are almost as big as LPs. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.12/1203 - Release Date: 12/30/2007 11:27 AM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Ah, mmm I'm sure there must be a bottle of fixer buried in the basement storage I can go breath. Speaking of billboards, 10 years back I worked on some software for a fellow that specialized in computerized color separation. During the conversion of his software we discovered that all postscript printers we could lay our hands on would only do +/- 32767 pixels. Ya that's 109 inches, but there was this fellow who had a postscript based paint gun for doing bill boards. Mmm 100 feet at 50 dpi, well that's 60,000 pixels Client mutter all sorts of words when we asked about running some 100 foot *test* samples... On Dec 30, 2007, at 11:27 AM, OK Don wrote: > The largest print we made was 4X8 feet - we turned one of the > enlargers horizontally, projected the 35mm neg onto the RC paper ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
The other day at work we were talking about what we listened to in highschool. Most of the folks at the table were talking Whitesnake, Poison, Def Leopard. I was the only one for Nirvana, Nine Inch Nails, Dead Kennedys, Gwar, and a stack of bands nobody had heard of. I was so glad when the '80s hairbands died out. -Curt Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 21:15:00 -0500 From: "Gary Hurst" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 everyone listens to the same kinda stuff -- that's why they are the usual suspects. i can't say i ever liked marilyn manson. he is so contrived, downright fake really. now kid rock, on the other hand, i can go for On Dec 29, 2007 9:09 PM, Jeff Zedic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Wow, I'm amazed that we listen to the same stuff. I kinda had you pegged > as > more of a Marilyn Manson type... > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com - Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Back in the day when firewire video capture had just come out we used to get alot of people who would use firewire for deck control and audio and pick up the video through s-video. They said it "looked warmer". Firewire is great because its a digital clone of your image, no distortion but alot of people liked the look of svideo and the softening of the digital artifacts... -Curt Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:31:19 -0600 From: "Tom Hargrave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity To: Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Peter, I'm an old vacuum tube guy and I still restore vacuum tube radios and amps today. Some corrections & additions: Vacuum tubes will & do clip. A vacuum tube is a voltage controlled device while a transistor is a current controlled device and either can be driven to clip. Clipping is nothing more than the device being turned all the way on or off before the input signal reaches full potential. Transisitor clipping is sharper than vacuum tube clipping. Vacuum tube amps distort more than transistor amps and the vacuum tube distortion is interpreted as a "warmer sound". Transistor amp manufacturers have not been able to duplicate this distortion because it's mechanical - it's in the physical tube design itself. I can still hear the difference in the old radios & amps I work on today. You believe the sound from a vacuum tube amp is "higher quality" because it actually sounds better. Put a scope on the output of a tube amp & a transistor amp and compare the difference and it's obvious that the transistor amp output is cleaner. Tom www.kegkits.com - Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The Death of High Fidelity
78s were acoustical until around 1925 IIRC, and then switched over to electrical. The electrical 78 rpm recordings have excellent sound quality, if you don't mind a little surface noise. (the surface noise on 78s from the late 30s is nearly inaudible);) I have tons of wonderful old performances that predate the advance to 33 rpm and hi fi, and they are priceless in terms of the artistry and technical wizardry of the likes of Rachmaninoff, Artur Schnabel, and Josef Hofmann. Among the great pianists of the era, the career of Vladimir Horowitz spanned all the audio tecnhologies and fortunately he still played like a demon into his 60s and the advent of stereophonic sound. On Dec 29, 2007 8:54 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have not been able to find 78's at thrift stores anymore, they just > never seem to turn up. Although I cant say I have been looking hard > either but I just dont see them, or really LP's either. > > Dan Weeks wrote: > > My dad, a retired physicist and life-long audiophile who built most > > of his own hi-fi stuff from the 40s to the 70s--including big tube > > amps that sucked enough juice to heat the whole room--is unconvinced > > that tube sound is better. He terms enthusiasm for tube amps and > > their harmonic distortion "misplaced nostalgia," and prefers the more > > accurate reproduction of solid state amps. Back when his tube > > oscilliscope still worked, he'd show you the difference. > > > > I, however, have at this count 6 tube hi-fis--4 of them late fifties/ > > early sixties German sets that have incredible sound--a combination > > of many speakers and very solid cabinets, among other things. Even my > > dad admits that my Grundig and Telefunken table radios have sound > > that blow away his Koss Model 88 and Bose wave tabletops, for all > > their much-lauded fidelity--probably because the Grundig, for > > example, has six speakers in its cabinet instead of the Koss' 3. I've > > found them at thrift shops for 75 bucks a piece or so. > > > > My other hi-fi is a 1942 Capehart console record player with an > > automatic changer that will play 20 consecutive 78s--both sides > > sequentially--completely automatically. It has a HUGE speaker in a > > solid walnut case, weighs close to 300 lbs, and has what my dad > > termed a "40-amp push-pull amplifier" that will make your pants flap > > in the breeze. VERY powerful. I love listening to big band jazz on > > the original-release 78s with it, tho I do miss stereo reproduction. > > I've picked up a pretty good collection of Jazz on 78 at thrift and > > antique shops dirt cheap--as in $3 per box of 120 or so disks. Nobody > > wants 'em anymore. Filled my SD with 'em on one trip. > > > > Dan > > > > > > > > ___ > > http://www.okiebenz.com > > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > > > > -- > Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK > 94 E420, 92 300SD, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, > 91 300D, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, > 84 190D, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, > 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250 > http://www.okiebenz.com > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
I have a friend who still plays with his 4X5 tele-graflex once in a while --- they are fun cameras. I have my grandfather's 2X3 speed graphic, but haven't cut/loaded any film for it. Now that I think about it, my first serious camera was a 2X3 Crown Graphic. The Linhof was probably a Technica - my daughter still uses her 4X5 Technica IV when she's serious about an image. On Dec 30, 2007 11:53 AM, archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Are 4 x 5 Graflexes still around? I think they go back to the flash powder > days. The newspaper used an Omega D2 enlarger, a Linhof view (don't > remember the film size), 4 x 5 Speed Graphics, Leicas, and Rollieflexes > during the late 1940s when I worked there as a teenager. > Luckily the editor told me I should find some other line of work since I was > one of the worst photographers he'd ever seen. He was right but it was > still fun; darkroom/enlarger work especially. We went out on the downtown > streets and asked people the "question of the day" and took their picture > for the daily column. I've often wondered why newspapers quit doing that. > The editor said it was good for circulation since it got ordinary people > personally involved. > Gerry -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." -Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
The largest print we made was 4X8 feet - we turned one of the enlargers horizontally, projected the 35mm neg onto the RC paper tacked to the cork board wall opposite, and exposed for 30 minutes. Development was hand see-sawing it through trays made from wall paper trays hot glued together to make them long enough. We only made a half dozen or so prints that way - too manual. They were exhibited at the State Fair that year. Sounds like you got to work with a real darkroom artist. They are a rare breed now! We brewed up developers for Tech Pan 35mm film (back when it had a special order number and only came in 100" rolls), and played with mixing pyro paper developer form formula, but that's about it. On Dec 30, 2007 11:45 AM, Jeff Zedic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Talking about BIG stuff, years ago I used to work in a studio that did > enLARGEments. I'm talking billboard sized photographs. (well, almost). > > The biggest photo I ever developed was 8x32 feet. It was for MB Canada oddly > enough and was a photo of the W196(?)'s crossing the line at LeMans 1,2,3 in > the mid 50's. > > My darkroom was approx. 60 feet long. Long enough that I could have paper on > the wall ready to expose and someone could walk in the door, not a darkroom > door, and the paper wouldn't fog! Had a horizontal enlarger, on rails, that > was made from an 8x10 body and would focus but pulling a string when the > enlarger was 20 or so feet away. Always used 8x10 copy negs and process > lenses so sharpness was never an issue. Great fun but no money in it for me, > sadly. > > Also, used to do fine art prints for local photogs exhibitions. I did one > for a photog named Larry Towell who I know see is a member of the Magnum > agency. THE most prestigious agency in the world. Pleased about that! hehe > > We also had a Durst Laborator 8x10 vertical enlargerbig bugger that was, > and a Elwood (?) 5x7 vertical but it never got used much. > > The biggest challenge was trying to roll an eight foot long roll of 54" wide > single weight fibre-based paper through the developing process without > creasing it or leaving half-moon fingernail marks on it...imagine trying > to roll wet paper towel that size without tearing..many hours of > frustration there. > > We also made our own developer, stop and fixer from scratch. Bill, my boss, > had formulated his own mix back in the 30's and used it ever since. He was > awesome; 70 years experience in the darkroom! He used to get mad because I'd > want to do exposure test strips for prints but he could just eyeball the neg > and print. Got it right first time, too! > > Jeff Zedic -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." -Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
> I just looked at a Mamiya C330 on the net & I prefer SLR. The TLR is particularly useful for IR film and and 87 (black) filter. The C330 was a much more affordable way to try out 6x6 than anything SLR-ish would have been. I used it at a couple of family weddings, and took some portraits of my parents. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity...Moz
Jeff I didn't know he had films. "The teenagers who love you will wake up, yawn, and kill you" I feel so much more chipper. Bob R -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff Zedic Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 9:07 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity On 29/12/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Music is good. > > Some days nothing but Morrissey will do. > > Bob R. > Good old cheerful Morrissey! (I wear black on the outside cause black is how I feel on the inside) If a ten ton truck, crashes into us, to die by your sidelol Have you ever seen his films? I almost bought a Mamiya C330 in London the other week in Portobello road market. It was a good price 145 quid. I used to have a C220 with a couple of lenses but traded it in for my second Hasselblad. Then bought a Pentax 6X7. Had three lenses and six backs for the Blad. Tried the 500 ELM for a bit but didn't like it. Really enjoyed my 4x5 and the Deardorff 8x10 I played with for a while too. Had an even BIGGER camera. It was an Ansco (?) stat camera and shot 20X24(?) negatives!! YES, that is in inches! MASSIVE! It was 54 inches long at full bellows extension. My darkroom had a Beseler 23CII XL with a cold light head, incandescent head and two lenses. Six element Rodenstock and six element Schneider or Nikkor. Good old daystouring the middle east with my blad...shooting 100 rolls of 120 and then spending weeks in isolation...hehehe I agree that the ultimate has to be an 8x10 contact on good double weight fibre-based paper. SWEET! Is that fixer I smell? Jeff Zedic ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
OK Don wrote: > > I traded a C220 with lens for my first hard drive - an ST225. I've got a 225 or two if you want to trade another Mamiya for it. Also have the 40mb, I think it's a ST251. I believe my Dad still has a Winchester disk pack laying around, the platters are almost as big as LPs. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
everything is still around, just not new. graflex as a company is long gone. i have a book of pictures shot in the mid to late 80s that was shot with a speed graphic. that's the latest i've seen it used professionally. On Dec 30, 2007 12:53 PM, archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Are 4 x 5 Graflexes still around? I think they go back to the flash > powder > days. The newspaper used an Omega D2 enlarger, a Linhof view (don't > remember the film size), 4 x 5 Speed Graphics, Leicas, and Rollieflexes > during the late 1940s when I worked there as a teenager. > Luckily the editor told me I should find some other line of work since I > was > one of the worst photographers he'd ever seen. He was right but it was > still fun; darkroom/enlarger work especially. We went out on the downtown > streets and asked people the "question of the day" and took their picture > for the daily column. I've often wondered why newspapers quit doing that. > The editor said it was good for circulation since it got ordinary people > personally involved. > Gerry > > From: "OK Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Ah, yes - yours was bigger than mine (only 20x20). I still use the 19" > > process lens for sharp portraits on the 8x10 Linhof. I have a 16" Ilex > > portrait f 3.5 (HUGE) lens for the softer ones. > > I traded a C220 with lens for my first hard drive - an ST225. > > The Omega 4x5 enlarger is in the attic, but the color head and the > > Focomat IIc are under dust covers, in what was once the "studio". > > >> I almost bought a Mamiya C330 in London the other week in Portobello > road > >> market. It was a good price 145 quid. I used to have a C220 with a > couple > >> of > >> lenses but traded it in for my second Hasselblad. Then bought a Pentax > >> 6X7. > >> Had three lenses and six backs for the Blad. Tried the 500 ELM for a > bit > >> but > >> didn't like it. > >> Really enjoyed my 4x5 and the Deardorff 8x10 I played with for a while > >> too. > >> Had an even BIGGER camera. It was an Ansco (?) stat camera and shot > >> 20X24(?) > >> negatives!! YES, that is in inches! MASSIVE! It was 54 inches long at > >> full > >> bellows extension. > >> My darkroom had a Beseler 23CII XL with a cold light head, incandescent > >> head > >> and two lenses. Six element Rodenstock and six element Schneider or > >> Nikkor. > >> Good old daystouring the middle east with my blad...shooting 100 > >> rolls > >> of 120 and then spending weeks in isolation...hehehe > >> I agree that the ultimate has to be an 8x10 contact on good double > weight > >> fibre-based paper. SWEET! Is that fixer I smell? > >> Jeff Zedic > > OK Don, KD5NRO > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Are 4 x 5 Graflexes still around? I think they go back to the flash powder days. The newspaper used an Omega D2 enlarger, a Linhof view (don't remember the film size), 4 x 5 Speed Graphics, Leicas, and Rollieflexes during the late 1940s when I worked there as a teenager. Luckily the editor told me I should find some other line of work since I was one of the worst photographers he'd ever seen. He was right but it was still fun; darkroom/enlarger work especially. We went out on the downtown streets and asked people the "question of the day" and took their picture for the daily column. I've often wondered why newspapers quit doing that. The editor said it was good for circulation since it got ordinary people personally involved. Gerry From: "OK Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Ah, yes - yours was bigger than mine (only 20x20). I still use the 19" > process lens for sharp portraits on the 8x10 Linhof. I have a 16" Ilex > portrait f 3.5 (HUGE) lens for the softer ones. > I traded a C220 with lens for my first hard drive - an ST225. > The Omega 4x5 enlarger is in the attic, but the color head and the > Focomat IIc are under dust covers, in what was once the "studio". >> I almost bought a Mamiya C330 in London the other week in Portobello road >> market. It was a good price 145 quid. I used to have a C220 with a couple >> of >> lenses but traded it in for my second Hasselblad. Then bought a Pentax >> 6X7. >> Had three lenses and six backs for the Blad. Tried the 500 ELM for a bit >> but >> didn't like it. >> Really enjoyed my 4x5 and the Deardorff 8x10 I played with for a while >> too. >> Had an even BIGGER camera. It was an Ansco (?) stat camera and shot >> 20X24(?) >> negatives!! YES, that is in inches! MASSIVE! It was 54 inches long at >> full >> bellows extension. >> My darkroom had a Beseler 23CII XL with a cold light head, incandescent >> head >> and two lenses. Six element Rodenstock and six element Schneider or >> Nikkor. >> Good old daystouring the middle east with my blad...shooting 100 >> rolls >> of 120 and then spending weeks in isolation...hehehe >> I agree that the ultimate has to be an 8x10 contact on good double weight >> fibre-based paper. SWEET! Is that fixer I smell? >> Jeff Zedic > OK Don, KD5NRO ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Yep, glass is everything. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff Zedic Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 11:47 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity On 30/12/2007, Tom Hargrave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Don is correct - there is no comparison between even the highest > resolution > digital camera and 6X6 medium format film. Digital has not even come close > to the information density of 35mm ASA 100 film! > > Thanks, > Tom Hargrave > www.kegkits.com > 256-656-1924 And that's without even talking about the lens quality of the majority of digital cameras! Jeff Zedic ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.12/1203 - Release Date: 12/30/2007 11:27 AM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
I just looked at a Mamiya C330 on the net & I prefer SLR. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff Zedic Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 10:07 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity On 29/12/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Music is good. > > Some days nothing but Morrissey will do. > > Bob R. > Good old cheerful Morrissey! (I wear black on the outside cause black is how I feel on the inside) If a ten ton truck, crashes into us, to die by your sidelol Have you ever seen his films? I almost bought a Mamiya C330 in London the other week in Portobello road market. It was a good price 145 quid. I used to have a C220 with a couple of lenses but traded it in for my second Hasselblad. Then bought a Pentax 6X7. Had three lenses and six backs for the Blad. Tried the 500 ELM for a bit but didn't like it. Really enjoyed my 4x5 and the Deardorff 8x10 I played with for a while too. Had an even BIGGER camera. It was an Ansco (?) stat camera and shot 20X24(?) negatives!! YES, that is in inches! MASSIVE! It was 54 inches long at full bellows extension. My darkroom had a Beseler 23CII XL with a cold light head, incandescent head and two lenses. Six element Rodenstock and six element Schneider or Nikkor. Good old daystouring the middle east with my blad...shooting 100 rolls of 120 and then spending weeks in isolation...hehehe I agree that the ultimate has to be an 8x10 contact on good double weight fibre-based paper. SWEET! Is that fixer I smell? Jeff Zedic ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.12/1203 - Release Date: 12/30/2007 11:27 AM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
On 30/12/2007, Tom Hargrave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Don is correct - there is no comparison between even the highest > resolution > digital camera and 6X6 medium format film. Digital has not even come close > to the information density of 35mm ASA 100 film! > > Thanks, > Tom Hargrave > www.kegkits.com > 256-656-1924 And that's without even talking about the lens quality of the majority of digital cameras! Jeff Zedic ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Talking about BIG stuff, years ago I used to work in a studio that did enLARGEments. I'm talking billboard sized photographs. (well, almost). The biggest photo I ever developed was 8x32 feet. It was for MB Canada oddly enough and was a photo of the W196(?)'s crossing the line at LeMans 1,2,3 in the mid 50's. My darkroom was approx. 60 feet long. Long enough that I could have paper on the wall ready to expose and someone could walk in the door, not a darkroom door, and the paper wouldn't fog! Had a horizontal enlarger, on rails, that was made from an 8x10 body and would focus but pulling a string when the enlarger was 20 or so feet away. Always used 8x10 copy negs and process lenses so sharpness was never an issue. Great fun but no money in it for me, sadly. Also, used to do fine art prints for local photogs exhibitions. I did one for a photog named Larry Towell who I know see is a member of the Magnum agency. THE most prestigious agency in the world. Pleased about that! hehe We also had a Durst Laborator 8x10 vertical enlargerbig bugger that was, and a Elwood (?) 5x7 vertical but it never got used much. The biggest challenge was trying to roll an eight foot long roll of 54" wide single weight fibre-based paper through the developing process without creasing it or leaving half-moon fingernail marks on it...imagine trying to roll wet paper towel that size without tearing..many hours of frustration there. We also made our own developer, stop and fixer from scratch. Bill, my boss, had formulated his own mix back in the 30's and used it ever since. He was awesome; 70 years experience in the darkroom! He used to get mad because I'd want to do exposure test strips for prints but he could just eyeball the neg and print. Got it right first time, too! Jeff Zedic ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Don is correct - there is no comparison between even the highest resolution digital camera and 6X6 medium format film. Digital has not even come close to the information density of 35mm ASA 100 film! Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of OK Don Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 11:27 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity But, you're still talking the miniature film format! Will old F series film camera lenses work on the digi Canons? I will wait for reasonably priced full format sensors in Nikon and/or M Leica bodies so I can use all my old glass. > > If you call the entire body a 'back' (as in back of the lens) > then Canon and Nikon both have them! I have lust in my heart > for a Canon EOS-1DS Mark II. That will preserve my $10k in > glass, as much as can be done anyway. > > I also have a Mamiya TLR and a few lenses that I've used. > > -- Jim > -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." -Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.12/1203 - Release Date: 12/30/2007 11:27 AM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
But, you're still talking the miniature film format! Will old F series film camera lenses work on the digi Canons? I will wait for reasonably priced full format sensors in Nikon and/or M Leica bodies so I can use all my old glass. > > If you call the entire body a 'back' (as in back of the lens) > then Canon and Nikon both have them! I have lust in my heart > for a Canon EOS-1DS Mark II. That will preserve my $10k in > glass, as much as can be done anyway. > > I also have a Mamiya TLR and a few lenses that I've used. > > -- Jim > -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." -Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Ah, yes - yours was bigger than mine (only 20x20). I still use the 19" process lens for sharp portraits on the 8x10 Linhof. I have a 16" Ilex portrait f 3.5 (HUGE) lens for the softer ones. I traded a C220 with lens for my first hard drive - an ST225. The Omega 4x5 enlarger is in the attic, but the color head and the Focomat IIc are under dust covers, in what was once the "studio". > > I almost bought a Mamiya C330 in London the other week in Portobello road > market. It was a good price 145 quid. I used to have a C220 with a couple of > lenses but traded it in for my second Hasselblad. Then bought a Pentax 6X7. > Had three lenses and six backs for the Blad. Tried the 500 ELM for a bit but > didn't like it. > > Really enjoyed my 4x5 and the Deardorff 8x10 I played with for a while too. > Had an even BIGGER camera. It was an Ansco (?) stat camera and shot 20X24(?) > negatives!! YES, that is in inches! MASSIVE! It was 54 inches long at full > bellows extension. > > My darkroom had a Beseler 23CII XL with a cold light head, incandescent head > and two lenses. Six element Rodenstock and six element Schneider or Nikkor. > Good old daystouring the middle east with my blad...shooting 100 rolls > of 120 and then spending weeks in isolation...hehehe > > I agree that the ultimate has to be an 8x10 contact on good double weight > fibre-based paper. SWEET! Is that fixer I smell? > > > Jeff Zedic -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." -Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
> Will any film camera cheaper than a Hasselblad take a digital back? If you call the entire body a 'back' (as in back of the lens) then Canon and Nikon both have them! I have lust in my heart for a Canon EOS-1DS Mark II. That will preserve my $10k in glass, as much as can be done anyway. I also have a Mamiya TLR and a few lenses that I've used. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
On 29/12/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Music is good. > > Some days nothing but Morrissey will do. > > Bob R. > Good old cheerful Morrissey! (I wear black on the outside cause black is how I feel on the inside) If a ten ton truck, crashes into us, to die by your sidelol Have you ever seen his films? I almost bought a Mamiya C330 in London the other week in Portobello road market. It was a good price 145 quid. I used to have a C220 with a couple of lenses but traded it in for my second Hasselblad. Then bought a Pentax 6X7. Had three lenses and six backs for the Blad. Tried the 500 ELM for a bit but didn't like it. Really enjoyed my 4x5 and the Deardorff 8x10 I played with for a while too. Had an even BIGGER camera. It was an Ansco (?) stat camera and shot 20X24(?) negatives!! YES, that is in inches! MASSIVE! It was 54 inches long at full bellows extension. My darkroom had a Beseler 23CII XL with a cold light head, incandescent head and two lenses. Six element Rodenstock and six element Schneider or Nikkor. Good old daystouring the middle east with my blad...shooting 100 rolls of 120 and then spending weeks in isolation...hehehe I agree that the ultimate has to be an 8x10 contact on good double weight fibre-based paper. SWEET! Is that fixer I smell? Jeff Zedic ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Music is good. Some days nothing but Morrissey will do. Bob R. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Hurst Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 7:15 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity everyone listens to the same kinda stuff -- that's why they are the usual suspects. i can't say i ever liked marilyn manson. he is so contrived, downright fake really. now kid rock, on the other hand, i can go for On Dec 29, 2007 9:09 PM, Jeff Zedic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Wow, I'm amazed that we listen to the same stuff. I kinda had you > pegged as more of a Marilyn Manson type... > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Email Firewall made the following annotations NOTICE --- This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain confidential, privileged or proprietary information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original and any copy or printout. Unintended recipients are prohibited from making any other use of this e-mail. Although we have taken reasonable precautions to ensure no viruses are present in this e-mail, we accept no liability for any loss or damage arising from the use of this e-mail or attachments, or for any delay or errors or omissions in the contents which result from e-mail transmission. - ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
The last time I looked, the cheapest digital back for either an RB67 or M645 Super was in the $15,000 range. Dan (former Mamiya guy) --- archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Will any film camera cheaper than a Hasselblad take > a digital back? Mamiya > perhaps? > Gerry > - > From: "OK Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Yup - it's hard to beat instant gratification, but > it's also hard to > > beat the magic of watching the print appear before > your eyes, not to > > mention the smell of fixer! > > If Anne has gone digital, I suspect it would be > with a high end digi > > back on a 'blad. > > I miss my darkroom, but not enough to re-construct > it! > > > > OK Don > > Still has full range from Minox to 8X10 (3 of > them!) > > > > On Dec 29, 2007 7:37 PM, Jeff Zedic > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Yes, I was reading an article on Annie Leibovitz > and was wondering if > >> she's > >> gone digital.. > >> > >> I miss my darkroom too! > >> > >> But that digital is just sooo easy! > >> > >> Jeff Zedic > >> Still has a 4x5 > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: > http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Will any film camera cheaper than a Hasselblad take a digital back? Mamiya perhaps? Gerry - From: "OK Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Yup - it's hard to beat instant gratification, but it's also hard to > beat the magic of watching the print appear before your eyes, not to > mention the smell of fixer! > If Anne has gone digital, I suspect it would be with a high end digi > back on a 'blad. > I miss my darkroom, but not enough to re-construct it! > > OK Don > Still has full range from Minox to 8X10 (3 of them!) > > On Dec 29, 2007 7:37 PM, Jeff Zedic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Yes, I was reading an article on Annie Leibovitz and was wondering if >> she's >> gone digital.. >> >> I miss my darkroom too! >> >> But that digital is just sooo easy! >> >> Jeff Zedic >> Still has a 4x5 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
> Would that be the Stax earspeakers?? Always wanted to try those! Yeah, the cheap ones. Cheapest even? SR-84's. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Yup - it's hard to beat instant gratification, but it's also hard to beat the magic of watching the print appear before your eyes, not to mention the smell of fixer! If Anne has gone digital, I suspect it would be with a high end digi back on a 'blad. I miss my darkroom, but not enough to re-construct it! OK Don Still has full range from Minox to 8X10 (3 of them!) On Dec 29, 2007 7:37 PM, Jeff Zedic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yes, I was reading an article on Annie Leibovitz and was wondering if she's > gone digital.. > > I miss my darkroom too! > > But that digital is just sooo easy! > > Jeff Zedic > Still has a 4x5 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
I still haven't been able to find anything in digital photography that can reproduce the (to me) lovely grain effects of 35mm Tri-X enlarged to 16X20. Not that it's appropriate for every scene, but when you want it, there doesn't seem to be a substitute. Now, when start saying the digital doesn't equal film yet, you have to qualify what film in what format you're talking about. Most recent digital cameras beat the Minox prints hands down --- Hursty mentioned the 8x10 film story - for the most part, the lenses used in 8x10 work are not the equal of those for the smaller formats, since they are rarely enlarged. When you're making contact prints, and the paper only resolves 20 lines per mm, there's no need for a lens that resolves over a 100 lines per mm. That having been said, I have never been able to match an 8x10 contact print, taken with an old Wollensak lens, with anything enlarged. That includes Hassleblad negs from an apo lens, enlarged on a Lietz Focomat II. I've never had "good" 4x5 lenses to work with, so I can't really comment there. On Dec 29, 2007 9:03 PM, Tom Hargrave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Digital photogaphy is not as good as film yet. Even the highest MB pixel > density is not close to the grain size of ASA 100 film. At the current > rate, digital will probably pass film in 2 years. > -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." -Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Digital photogaphy is not as good as film yet. Even the highest MB pixel density is not close to the grain size of ASA 100 film. At the current rate, digital will probably pass film in 2 years. Thanks, Tom 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: "Kaleb C. Striplin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: 12/29/07 7:34 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity I think my aunt who has been a pro photographer for about 25 years is fixing to quit the business because everyone wants digital now and she refused to do it, because its not as good. Peter Frederick wrote: > Fidelity = true to source. Not today! > > Vacuum tube amps always sound much better than transistor amps, as they > don't clip (covert too high an amplitude sine wave to a flat topped > wave, with extra harmonics). Takes an enormous capacity transistor to > not clip, and tubes never do. Other than the background hiss of > electrons flying an inch or so, they are much nicer. Some problems > with exact reproduction due to internal hysteresis, but that's present > in transistor amps, too. > > Given that MP3 compressions are rather extreme (and everyone has crappy > amplifiers in their iPods and etc turned up way beyond ear damage level > --why anyone MAKES an amplifier that puts out more than 80 dB in those > things is beyond me), the norm now is really bad reproduction, mostly > of really poor musical quality stuff to start with (a stick on a > plastic trash can over one's head, sort of). No one remembers what > real sound was, nothing is live anymore (rock concerts are mostly tape, > I believe), and most listeners have hearing damage, there is no hope. > > It's been going downhill for a long time, every since orchestral music > was no longer recorded with a pair of mikes in the auditorium and was > instead "mixed" from one stuffed up each instrument. Digitization has > markedly degraded things since, as it's way too easy to fiddle it > later. > > I'm all for live and recordings ON TAPE IN ANALOG with unchanged > reproduction. Not a chance in the bad place, I guess. > > Ditto for photography, by the way -- digital is easier, but I'm > unconvinced that it's better. > > Just the old curmudgeon here. > > Peter > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 94 E420, 92 300SD, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 84 190D, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.12/1202 - Release Date: 12/29/2007 1:27 PM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Reminds me of an article I read several years ago, a guy had analyzed the sonic characteristics of popular music hits that have remained popular for decades, and found a direct correlation to the the amount of dynamic range preserved in the mastering. Let's see how good google is... Hm, found a link, but the page seems to be gone. Ah, here it is in the Wayback Machine: http://web.archive.org/web/20060912072113/http://www.airwindows.com/ analysis/Dynamics.html Note that to read the entire piece, you'll have to follow the links at the end of each section. Allan On Dec 29, 2007, at 3:54 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > The death of music, more likely. > > > http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/1619/ > the_death_of_high_fidelity/print > > > > ** > See AOL's top rated recipes > (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304) > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
everyone listens to the same kinda stuff -- that's why they are the usual suspects. i can't say i ever liked marilyn manson. he is so contrived, downright fake really. now kid rock, on the other hand, i can go for On Dec 29, 2007 9:09 PM, Jeff Zedic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Wow, I'm amazed that we listen to the same stuff. I kinda had you pegged > as > more of a Marilyn Manson type... > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Wow, I'm amazed that we listen to the same stuff. I kinda had you pegged as more of a Marilyn Manson type... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Most things good are not easy. We are in a decline. It stinks. Bob R. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kaleb C. Striplin Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 6:34 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity I think my aunt who has been a pro photographer for about 25 years is fixing to quit the business because everyone wants digital now and she refused to do it, because its not as good. Peter Frederick wrote: > Fidelity = true to source. Not today! > > Vacuum tube amps always sound much better than transistor amps, as > they don't clip (covert too high an amplitude sine wave to a flat > topped wave, with extra harmonics). Takes an enormous capacity > transistor to not clip, and tubes never do. Other than the background > hiss of electrons flying an inch or so, they are much nicer. Some > problems with exact reproduction due to internal hysteresis, but > that's present in transistor amps, too. > > Given that MP3 compressions are rather extreme (and everyone has > crappy amplifiers in their iPods and etc turned up way beyond ear > damage level --why anyone MAKES an amplifier that puts out more than > 80 dB in those things is beyond me), the norm now is really bad > reproduction, mostly of really poor musical quality stuff to start > with (a stick on a plastic trash can over one's head, sort of). No > one remembers what real sound was, nothing is live anymore (rock > concerts are mostly tape, I believe), and most listeners have hearing damage, there is no hope. > > It's been going downhill for a long time, every since orchestral music > was no longer recorded with a pair of mikes in the auditorium and was > instead "mixed" from one stuffed up each instrument. Digitization has > markedly degraded things since, as it's way too easy to fiddle it > later. > > I'm all for live and recordings ON TAPE IN ANALOG with unchanged > reproduction. Not a chance in the bad place, I guess. > > Ditto for photography, by the way -- digital is easier, but I'm > unconvinced that it's better. > > Just the old curmudgeon here. > > Peter > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 94 E420, 92 300SD, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 84 190D, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Email Firewall made the following annotations NOTICE --- This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain confidential, privileged or proprietary information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original and any copy or printout. Unintended recipients are prohibited from making any other use of this e-mail. Although we have taken reasonable precautions to ensure no viruses are present in this e-mail, we accept no liability for any loss or damage arising from the use of this e-mail or attachments, or for any delay or errors or omissions in the contents which result from e-mail transmission. - ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The Death of High Fidelity
I have not been able to find 78's at thrift stores anymore, they just never seem to turn up. Although I cant say I have been looking hard either but I just dont see them, or really LP's either. Dan Weeks wrote: > My dad, a retired physicist and life-long audiophile who built most > of his own hi-fi stuff from the 40s to the 70s--including big tube > amps that sucked enough juice to heat the whole room--is unconvinced > that tube sound is better. He terms enthusiasm for tube amps and > their harmonic distortion "misplaced nostalgia," and prefers the more > accurate reproduction of solid state amps. Back when his tube > oscilliscope still worked, he'd show you the difference. > > I, however, have at this count 6 tube hi-fis--4 of them late fifties/ > early sixties German sets that have incredible sound--a combination > of many speakers and very solid cabinets, among other things. Even my > dad admits that my Grundig and Telefunken table radios have sound > that blow away his Koss Model 88 and Bose wave tabletops, for all > their much-lauded fidelity--probably because the Grundig, for > example, has six speakers in its cabinet instead of the Koss' 3. I've > found them at thrift shops for 75 bucks a piece or so. > > My other hi-fi is a 1942 Capehart console record player with an > automatic changer that will play 20 consecutive 78s--both sides > sequentially--completely automatically. It has a HUGE speaker in a > solid walnut case, weighs close to 300 lbs, and has what my dad > termed a "40-amp push-pull amplifier" that will make your pants flap > in the breeze. VERY powerful. I love listening to big band jazz on > the original-release 78s with it, tho I do miss stereo reproduction. > I've picked up a pretty good collection of Jazz on 78 at thrift and > antique shops dirt cheap--as in $3 per box of 120 or so disks. Nobody > wants 'em anymore. Filled my SD with 'em on one trip. > > Dan > > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 94 E420, 92 300SD, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 84 190D, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Check on Audiogon.com and they come up from time to time for Polk Audio kind of money. They'll be a much better investment. You won't want to upgrade with the VR's. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
i kinda find that price expensive. i'm really more a boston, polk, bose price point kinda guy! On Dec 29, 2007 7:36 PM, Jeff Zedic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > First of all, run away screaming from anything marked BOSE..you are > correct > for the most part Jabba. > > You can get big sound from smallish speakers but you won't get that big > bottom end sound. Smaller speakers produce a better holographic effect, > usually, but lack bass. > > Tubes are only muddy sounding if the circuit running them is a shit > design. > In any realistically sounding way, tubes are superior. They have that > magic > that makes you feel as though you're there. (In a properly setup system) > > You want some good sounding small speakers? Try these: > > http://www.vonschweikert.com/zvr1.htm > > Good sound and inexpensive too! Buy these, place them correctly on good > stands, and enjoy! (Fill the stands with sand) > > I used to have their VR4 Gen III HSE's and the sound was awesome! Had to > sell when I moved as I didn't have the original boxes to ship them in. > > What are you listening to? (modern jazz, as in?) > > Jeff Zedic > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Yes, I was reading an article on Annie Leibovitz and was wondering if she's gone digital.. I miss my darkroom too! But that digital is just sooo easy! Jeff Zedic Still has a 4x5 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The Death of High Fidelity
Dan, There's a difference between measurable sonic accuracy and good sound. Solid state guys always use THD, (total harmonic distortion), as the yard stick. I use my ears. These ears are capable of noticing a 1dB difference is channel separation.much to my dismayit means I'm forever tweaking! Low THD numbers are usually achieved through the use of negative feedback in the audio circuit. This however does NOT translate into good sound. The old Grundigs had good sound because they were big and heavy with inert cabinets. The German tubes used in the Telefunkens ETC were vastly superior to most cheap and cheerful tubes. The mulitple speakers can be good or bad. Depends on the crossover, design, etc... Those old systems has warm, rounded sound. The new stuff that I listen on has all the psychoacoustic benefits of tubes without the rolled off top and bottom ends. As I'm writing this I keep thinking of all the tiny things you can do that have large effects on the sound quality overall. 78's tend to have been recorded acoustically...basically by shouting down a megaphone attached to a microphone. Also, the shellac used as a medium had a limited range. Still a very interesting and enjoyable sound nonetheless. I even almost bought an Edison Amberola a few years back. (wax cylinders) A push pull circuit gives you more power, but at the price of purity of sound. Still great sound thoughbut 40 amps WOW! Turn on your amp and the streetlights dim! AWESOME. My old GE kettle was like that! lol My 845 tube monblocks used to warm up the apartment too! Noticeably!! Jeff Zedic Long-winded when it comes to audio No more MB's eitherhave to settle for my Audi A4 TDI 5 speed!! Woohoo!! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
the usual suspects: coltrane, mingus, monk, miles davis, brubeck, bill evans, roland kirk. On Dec 29, 2007 7:36 PM, Jeff Zedic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > First of all, run away screaming from anything marked BOSE..you are > correct > for the most part Jabba. > > You can get big sound from smallish speakers but you won't get that big > bottom end sound. Smaller speakers produce a better holographic effect, > usually, but lack bass. > > Tubes are only muddy sounding if the circuit running them is a shit > design. > In any realistically sounding way, tubes are superior. They have that > magic > that makes you feel as though you're there. (In a properly setup system) > > You want some good sounding small speakers? Try these: > > http://www.vonschweikert.com/zvr1.htm > > Good sound and inexpensive too! Buy these, place them correctly on good > stands, and enjoy! (Fill the stands with sand) > > I used to have their VR4 Gen III HSE's and the sound was awesome! Had to > sell when I moved as I didn't have the original boxes to ship them in. > > What are you listening to? (modern jazz, as in?) > > Jeff Zedic > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
I think my aunt who has been a pro photographer for about 25 years is fixing to quit the business because everyone wants digital now and she refused to do it, because its not as good. Peter Frederick wrote: > Fidelity = true to source. Not today! > > Vacuum tube amps always sound much better than transistor amps, as they > don't clip (covert too high an amplitude sine wave to a flat topped > wave, with extra harmonics). Takes an enormous capacity transistor to > not clip, and tubes never do. Other than the background hiss of > electrons flying an inch or so, they are much nicer. Some problems > with exact reproduction due to internal hysteresis, but that's present > in transistor amps, too. > > Given that MP3 compressions are rather extreme (and everyone has crappy > amplifiers in their iPods and etc turned up way beyond ear damage level > --why anyone MAKES an amplifier that puts out more than 80 dB in those > things is beyond me), the norm now is really bad reproduction, mostly > of really poor musical quality stuff to start with (a stick on a > plastic trash can over one's head, sort of). No one remembers what > real sound was, nothing is live anymore (rock concerts are mostly tape, > I believe), and most listeners have hearing damage, there is no hope. > > It's been going downhill for a long time, every since orchestral music > was no longer recorded with a pair of mikes in the auditorium and was > instead "mixed" from one stuffed up each instrument. Digitization has > markedly degraded things since, as it's way too easy to fiddle it > later. > > I'm all for live and recordings ON TAPE IN ANALOG with unchanged > reproduction. Not a chance in the bad place, I guess. > > Ditto for photography, by the way -- digital is easier, but I'm > unconvinced that it's better. > > Just the old curmudgeon here. > > Peter > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 94 E420, 92 300SD, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 84 190D, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] The Death of High Fidelity
My dad, a retired physicist and life-long audiophile who built most of his own hi-fi stuff from the 40s to the 70s--including big tube amps that sucked enough juice to heat the whole room--is unconvinced that tube sound is better. He terms enthusiasm for tube amps and their harmonic distortion "misplaced nostalgia," and prefers the more accurate reproduction of solid state amps. Back when his tube oscilliscope still worked, he'd show you the difference. I, however, have at this count 6 tube hi-fis--4 of them late fifties/ early sixties German sets that have incredible sound--a combination of many speakers and very solid cabinets, among other things. Even my dad admits that my Grundig and Telefunken table radios have sound that blow away his Koss Model 88 and Bose wave tabletops, for all their much-lauded fidelity--probably because the Grundig, for example, has six speakers in its cabinet instead of the Koss' 3. I've found them at thrift shops for 75 bucks a piece or so. My other hi-fi is a 1942 Capehart console record player with an automatic changer that will play 20 consecutive 78s--both sides sequentially--completely automatically. It has a HUGE speaker in a solid walnut case, weighs close to 300 lbs, and has what my dad termed a "40-amp push-pull amplifier" that will make your pants flap in the breeze. VERY powerful. I love listening to big band jazz on the original-release 78s with it, tho I do miss stereo reproduction. I've picked up a pretty good collection of Jazz on 78 at thrift and antique shops dirt cheap--as in $3 per box of 120 or so disks. Nobody wants 'em anymore. Filled my SD with 'em on one trip. Dan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
First of all, run away screaming from anything marked BOSE..you are correct for the most part Jabba. You can get big sound from smallish speakers but you won't get that big bottom end sound. Smaller speakers produce a better holographic effect, usually, but lack bass. Tubes are only muddy sounding if the circuit running them is a shit design. In any realistically sounding way, tubes are superior. They have that magic that makes you feel as though you're there. (In a properly setup system) You want some good sounding small speakers? Try these: http://www.vonschweikert.com/zvr1.htm Good sound and inexpensive too! Buy these, place them correctly on good stands, and enjoy! (Fill the stands with sand) I used to have their VR4 Gen III HSE's and the sound was awesome! Had to sell when I moved as I didn't have the original boxes to ship them in. What are you listening to? (modern jazz, as in?) Jeff Zedic ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
a conclusion i've reached recently is that if you want big sound, you need big speakers. i have very accurate little boston acoustics and portable powered (very loud too) bose speakers, but neither of them can really make big sound no matter what they claim. i also find that modern jazz like cleaner solid state over muddy tubes. any agreements or disagreements from you on these issues, zedic? On Dec 29, 2007 7:09 PM, Jeff Zedic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > BTW, there is renaissance is high end audio being driven by tube equipment > and vinyl. There's probably more tube gear out there now than ever before. > Going all the way from the small tube preamp that Hursty mentioned, (yes, > it > WILL make a sound improvement), all the way up to extreme gear such as the > 845 based monoblocks at $400,000 and the top of the range turntable that > retails for $125,000 and weighs 700lbs!! > > You can see an awesome turntable in the first Tomb Raider movie when she > does the aero-ballet bit. That's a snip at $25,000. > > Want to get the biggest sound improvement for the least money?? > Vibration control and speaker placement is criticaldown to the last > couple of millimetres believe it or not. > > Jeff Zedic > Had to fire up my system now! > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Would that be the Stax earspeakers?? Always wanted to try those! You'd be surprised what you can do with a decent old Thorens or Linn TT. With a TT it's all about being well set up and level! Jeff Zedic ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
BTW, there is renaissance is high end audio being driven by tube equipment and vinyl. There's probably more tube gear out there now than ever before. Going all the way from the small tube preamp that Hursty mentioned, (yes, it WILL make a sound improvement), all the way up to extreme gear such as the 845 based monoblocks at $400,000 and the top of the range turntable that retails for $125,000 and weighs 700lbs!! You can see an awesome turntable in the first Tomb Raider movie when she does the aero-ballet bit. That's a snip at $25,000. Want to get the biggest sound improvement for the least money?? Vibration control and speaker placement is criticaldown to the last couple of millimetres believe it or not. Jeff Zedic Had to fire up my system now! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
> Ditto my 1954 Billie Holiday, and the original UK release of DSOM by > Floyd > on Harvest. Nirvana's Unplugged album on vinyl is pretty good, as is > Clapton's and Neil Young's. (Neil's an audio geek too) I'm fortunate to have a Sheffield album or two in my stash. A number of OMR releases, too. Nice work, that stuff, though I don't have the sound system to do it any justice, but it always did sound pretty good on the Stax. My turntable was always crap. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Well, against my better judgement I'll wade into this discussion. Full disclosure: I'm a tube guy...I'm also a high end audio geek. My Cd player is tube, my preamp is tube, and until I moved overseas, my monoblocks were 845 based tubes. The second largest tube still made. They are all single-ended Class A design, NOT A/b. If you heard my system and replaced any ONE item with solid state stuff you would immediately know and wonder where the good sound went. It's all a matter of persoanl taste and style. I like being able to fiddle with my system. Tube rolling is a lot of fun and allows you, if you're persnickety enough, to tailor the sound of each album you listen to without resorting to EQing. (Tube rolling is the substitution of different manufacturer or model of tube to achieve different sound characteristics. ) BTW, I also greatly prefer the sound from vinyl to CD. There is a huge world of difference. It's the difference between hearing a recording, or being there. Don't even start me on mp3'sI had enough trouble having to do live pro sound for the last ten years and never being fully happy with the results. My musical taste runs across a broad spectrum. VERY broad. Not much time for a lot of newer stuff although there are decent bits here and there. Most people want their music to be like wallpaper...to be seen but not really noticed. The true artistry is being cheapened, but hey, that's what most people want and they can have it. I'll stick with my stuff while they chuckle up their sleeve at my "archaic" mindset. I recently picked up a budget release of Buddy Holly's hits. Never been a big fan of his, but had to admire the incredible job the engineers did on the soundespecially when all they had was MAYBE a two track setup and no compression. Ditto my 1954 Billie Holiday, and the original UK release of DSOM by Floyd on Harvest. Nirvana's Unplugged album on vinyl is pretty good, as is Clapton's and Neil Young's. (Neil's an audio geek too) Jeff Zedic ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
I've not heard one or looked the output on a scope but they probably do work if they are taking advantage of the distortion a tube applies to a signal. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Hurst Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 4:59 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity you have anything to say about those cheap 1 or 2 tube preamps that are popping up all over the place now to give you a "warmer" sound? to my mind, they work in some limited contexts with big speakers where muddying the sound up a big helps, but mostly it's just a useless gimmick. they even have ipod dock/speakers with a tube now, which htey have mounted in the subwoofer. On Dec 29, 2007 5:52 PM, Tom Hargrave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The vacuum tube radio in your 63 falcon sounded great because all of the > space behind the speaker helped with the base. I also probably had a 3X9 > oval speaker in the dash that helped some. These days, everyone wants to > build round speakers but they don't have the same dynamic range. > > There have been some new amp designs with vacuum tube finals & they > sound great for the same reasons the old ones sound great (re. prev. > post). There are also FET based designs. FETs are voltage controled > transistors & share some tube characteristics but they still don't sound > the same as tube amps. > > > Tom > www.kegkits.com > > > - Original Message - > From: Robert Rentfro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Received: 12/29/07 5:43 PM > To: Mercedes Discussion List > CC: > Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity > > Isn't all the wicked high-end audiophile stuff still tube? Like > MacIntosh > for example? > Heck, the vacuum tube radio in my '63 Falcon sounded great! > > Bob R. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Tom Hargrave > Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 3:31 PM > To: mercedes@okiebenz.com > Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity > > Peter, > > I'm an old vacuum tube guy and I still restore vacuum tube radios and > amps today. > > Some corrections & additions: > > Vacuum tubes will & do clip. A vacuum tube is a voltage controlled > device while a transistor is a current controlled device and either can > be driven to clip. Clipping is nothing more than the device being turned > all the way on or off before the input signal reaches full potential. > Transisitor clipping is sharper than vacuum tube clipping. > > Vacuum tube amps distort more than transistor amps and the vacuum tube > distortion is interpreted as a "warmer sound". Transistor amp > manufacturers have not been able to duplicate this distortion because > it's mechanical - it's in the physical tube design itself. I can still > hear the difference in the old radios & amps I work on today. You > believe the sound from a vacuum tube amp is "higher quality" because it > actually sounds better. Put a scope on the output of a tube amp & a > transistor amp and compare the difference and it's obvious that the > transistor amp output is cleaner. > > > Tom > www.kegkits.com > > > - Original Message - > From: Peter Frederick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Received: 12/29/07 5:13 PM > To: Mercedes Discussion List > CC: > Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity > > Fidelity = true to source. Not today! > > Vacuum tube amps always sound much better than transistor amps, as they > don't clip (covert too high an amplitude sine wave to a flat topped > wave, with extra harmonics). Takes an enormous capacity transistor to > not clip, and tubes never do. Other than the background hiss of > electrons flying an inch or so, they are much nicer. Some problems > with exact reproduction due to internal hysteresis, but that's present > in transistor amps, too. > > Given that MP3 compressions are rather extreme (and everyone has crappy > amplifiers in their iPods and etc turned up way beyond ear damage level > --why anyone MAKES an amplifier that puts out more than 80 dB in those > things is beyond me), the norm now is really bad reproduction, mostly > of really poor musical quality stuff to start with (a stick on a > plastic trash can over one's head, sort of). No one remembers what > real sound was, nothing is live anymore (rock concerts are mostly tape, > I believe), and most listeners have hearing damage, there is no hope. > > It's been going downhill for a long time, every since orchestral music > was no l
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
What you hear is the sharp cutoff I mentioned in my earlier post. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Frederick Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 5:01 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity yes, you can "flat-top" a tube amp output, but it doesn't produce the "bouncing" that a transistor amp does when the output voltage hits maximum, I don't believe -- the output just tapers off to the maximum with no internal "reflections" at higher frequencies. Reduces amplitude of the output, but doesn't make the horrible screech an overdriven transistor amp does. I used to have very very good high frequency hearing (alas, most of it's gone now) -- I could hear ultrasonic alarms, for instance, and the horizontal driver on TV's used to drive me nuts. A clipping transistor amp was physically painful to me, my friends in college used to laugh at me when I clapped my hands over my ears and fled the room. True, a transistor amp will give a much cleaner waveform, but only until you clip, which isn't that hard to do in a complex sound, even with a high quality amp. I can handle the distortion from tube amps a lot better than the screech from overdriven transistor amps! I wonder what could be done with tube technology today -- so far as I know, not much research has been done with that technology in the last 40 years or so except for radio transmission amps Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.12/1202 - Release Date: 12/29/2007 1:27 PM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
yes, you can "flat-top" a tube amp output, but it doesn't produce the "bouncing" that a transistor amp does when the output voltage hits maximum, I don't believe -- the output just tapers off to the maximum with no internal "reflections" at higher frequencies. Reduces amplitude of the output, but doesn't make the horrible screech an overdriven transistor amp does. I used to have very very good high frequency hearing (alas, most of it's gone now) -- I could hear ultrasonic alarms, for instance, and the horizontal driver on TV's used to drive me nuts. A clipping transistor amp was physically painful to me, my friends in college used to laugh at me when I clapped my hands over my ears and fled the room. True, a transistor amp will give a much cleaner waveform, but only until you clip, which isn't that hard to do in a complex sound, even with a high quality amp. I can handle the distortion from tube amps a lot better than the screech from overdriven transistor amps! I wonder what could be done with tube technology today -- so far as I know, not much research has been done with that technology in the last 40 years or so except for radio transmission amps Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
you have anything to say about those cheap 1 or 2 tube preamps that are popping up all over the place now to give you a "warmer" sound? to my mind, they work in some limited contexts with big speakers where muddying the sound up a big helps, but mostly it's just a useless gimmick. they even have ipod dock/speakers with a tube now, which htey have mounted in the subwoofer. On Dec 29, 2007 5:52 PM, Tom Hargrave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The vacuum tube radio in your 63 falcon sounded great because all of the > space behind the speaker helped with the base. I also probably had a 3X9 > oval speaker in the dash that helped some. These days, everyone wants to > build round speakers but they don't have the same dynamic range. > > There have been some new amp designs with vacuum tube finals & they > sound great for the same reasons the old ones sound great (re. prev. > post). There are also FET based designs. FETs are voltage controled > transistors & share some tube characteristics but they still don't sound > the same as tube amps. > > > Tom > www.kegkits.com > > > - Original Message - > From: Robert Rentfro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Received: 12/29/07 5:43 PM > To: Mercedes Discussion List > CC: > Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity > > Isn't all the wicked high-end audiophile stuff still tube? Like > MacIntosh > for example? > Heck, the vacuum tube radio in my '63 Falcon sounded great! > > Bob R. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Tom Hargrave > Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 3:31 PM > To: mercedes@okiebenz.com > Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity > > Peter, > > I'm an old vacuum tube guy and I still restore vacuum tube radios and > amps today. > > Some corrections & additions: > > Vacuum tubes will & do clip. A vacuum tube is a voltage controlled > device while a transistor is a current controlled device and either can > be driven to clip. Clipping is nothing more than the device being turned > all the way on or off before the input signal reaches full potential. > Transisitor clipping is sharper than vacuum tube clipping. > > Vacuum tube amps distort more than transistor amps and the vacuum tube > distortion is interpreted as a "warmer sound". Transistor amp > manufacturers have not been able to duplicate this distortion because > it's mechanical - it's in the physical tube design itself. I can still > hear the difference in the old radios & amps I work on today. You > believe the sound from a vacuum tube amp is "higher quality" because it > actually sounds better. Put a scope on the output of a tube amp & a > transistor amp and compare the difference and it's obvious that the > transistor amp output is cleaner. > > > Tom > www.kegkits.com > > > - Original Message - > From: Peter Frederick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Received: 12/29/07 5:13 PM > To: Mercedes Discussion List > CC: > Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity > > Fidelity = true to source. Not today! > > Vacuum tube amps always sound much better than transistor amps, as they > don't clip (covert too high an amplitude sine wave to a flat topped > wave, with extra harmonics). Takes an enormous capacity transistor to > not clip, and tubes never do. Other than the background hiss of > electrons flying an inch or so, they are much nicer. Some problems > with exact reproduction due to internal hysteresis, but that's present > in transistor amps, too. > > Given that MP3 compressions are rather extreme (and everyone has crappy > amplifiers in their iPods and etc turned up way beyond ear damage level > --why anyone MAKES an amplifier that puts out more than 80 dB in those > things is beyond me), the norm now is really bad reproduction, mostly > of really poor musical quality stuff to start with (a stick on a > plastic trash can over one's head, sort of). No one remembers what > real sound was, nothing is live anymore (rock concerts are mostly tape, > I believe), and most listeners have hearing damage, there is no hope. > > It's been going downhill for a long time, every since orchestral music > was no longer recorded with a pair of mikes in the auditorium and was > instead "mixed" from one stuffed up each instrument. Digitization has > markedly degraded things since, as it's way too easy to fiddle it > later. > > I'm all for live and recordings ON TAPE IN ANALOG with unchanged > reproduction. Not a chance in the bad place, I guess. > > Ditto for photography, by the way -- digital
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
The vacuum tube radio in your 63 falcon sounded great because all of the space behind the speaker helped with the base. I also probably had a 3X9 oval speaker in the dash that helped some. These days, everyone wants to build round speakers but they don't have the same dynamic range. There have been some new amp designs with vacuum tube finals & they sound great for the same reasons the old ones sound great (re. prev. post). There are also FET based designs. FETs are voltage controled transistors & share some tube characteristics but they still don't sound the same as tube amps. Tom www.kegkits.com - Original Message - From: Robert Rentfro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: 12/29/07 5:43 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List CC: Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity Isn't all the wicked high-end audiophile stuff still tube? Like MacIntosh for example? Heck, the vacuum tube radio in my '63 Falcon sounded great! Bob R. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Hargrave Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 3:31 PM To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity Peter, I'm an old vacuum tube guy and I still restore vacuum tube radios and amps today. Some corrections & additions: Vacuum tubes will & do clip. A vacuum tube is a voltage controlled device while a transistor is a current controlled device and either can be driven to clip. Clipping is nothing more than the device being turned all the way on or off before the input signal reaches full potential. Transisitor clipping is sharper than vacuum tube clipping. Vacuum tube amps distort more than transistor amps and the vacuum tube distortion is interpreted as a "warmer sound". Transistor amp manufacturers have not been able to duplicate this distortion because it's mechanical - it's in the physical tube design itself. I can still hear the difference in the old radios & amps I work on today. You believe the sound from a vacuum tube amp is "higher quality" because it actually sounds better. Put a scope on the output of a tube amp & a transistor amp and compare the difference and it's obvious that the transistor amp output is cleaner. Tom www.kegkits.com - Original Message - From: Peter Frederick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: 12/29/07 5:13 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List CC: Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity Fidelity = true to source. Not today! Vacuum tube amps always sound much better than transistor amps, as they don't clip (covert too high an amplitude sine wave to a flat topped wave, with extra harmonics). Takes an enormous capacity transistor to not clip, and tubes never do. Other than the background hiss of electrons flying an inch or so, they are much nicer. Some problems with exact reproduction due to internal hysteresis, but that's present in transistor amps, too. Given that MP3 compressions are rather extreme (and everyone has crappy amplifiers in their iPods and etc turned up way beyond ear damage level --why anyone MAKES an amplifier that puts out more than 80 dB in those things is beyond me), the norm now is really bad reproduction, mostly of really poor musical quality stuff to start with (a stick on a plastic trash can over one's head, sort of). No one remembers what real sound was, nothing is live anymore (rock concerts are mostly tape, I believe), and most listeners have hearing damage, there is no hope. It's been going downhill for a long time, every since orchestral music was no longer recorded with a pair of mikes in the auditorium and was instead "mixed" from one stuffed up each instrument. Digitization has markedly degraded things since, as it's way too easy to fiddle it later. I'm all for live and recordings ON TAPE IN ANALOG with unchanged reproduction. Not a chance in the bad place, I guess. Ditto for photography, by the way -- digital is easier, but I'm unconvinced that it's better. Just the old curmudgeon here. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.12/1202 - Release Date: 12/29/2007 1:27 PM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponso
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
it's all a whole different game now. it's a game of high volume at a low price. it's about making stuff that can be transferred from place to place quickly and easily. the internet is the new paradigm. the days of silver halide are long gone and images are what works for myspace. we got pissed off when film went to tape and now tape looks like a bargain compared to mp4. there is a story i've told many times before, so i'll tell it again. dude takes his 8x10 camera out to the national park to do the ansel adams. he takes a picture of the hill across the valley. on the developed picture, she sees something that looks a little different. he blows it up and sees it is a parking lot. he blows up the parking lot, and there is a yellow school bus. he blows up the school bus and sees a license plate. he blows up the license plate and sees it is from alberta and reads the number. but you can't stop progress. we can be luddites in our spare time and mess with the old day, but i think we either keep up with the technology or we just get left behind. On Dec 29, 2007 5:12 PM, Peter Frederick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Fidelity = true to source. Not today! > > Vacuum tube amps always sound much better than transistor amps, as they > don't clip (covert too high an amplitude sine wave to a flat topped > wave, with extra harmonics). Takes an enormous capacity transistor to > not clip, and tubes never do. Other than the background hiss of > electrons flying an inch or so, they are much nicer. Some problems > with exact reproduction due to internal hysteresis, but that's present > in transistor amps, too. > > Given that MP3 compressions are rather extreme (and everyone has crappy > amplifiers in their iPods and etc turned up way beyond ear damage level > --why anyone MAKES an amplifier that puts out more than 80 dB in those > things is beyond me), the norm now is really bad reproduction, mostly > of really poor musical quality stuff to start with (a stick on a > plastic trash can over one's head, sort of). No one remembers what > real sound was, nothing is live anymore (rock concerts are mostly tape, > I believe), and most listeners have hearing damage, there is no hope. > > It's been going downhill for a long time, every since orchestral music > was no longer recorded with a pair of mikes in the auditorium and was > instead "mixed" from one stuffed up each instrument. Digitization has > markedly degraded things since, as it's way too easy to fiddle it > later. > > I'm all for live and recordings ON TAPE IN ANALOG with unchanged > reproduction. Not a chance in the bad place, I guess. > > Ditto for photography, by the way -- digital is easier, but I'm > unconvinced that it's better. > > Just the old curmudgeon here. > > Peter > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Isn't all the wicked high-end audiophile stuff still tube? Like MacIntosh for example? Heck, the vacuum tube radio in my '63 Falcon sounded great! Bob R. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Hargrave Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 3:31 PM To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity Peter, I'm an old vacuum tube guy and I still restore vacuum tube radios and amps today. Some corrections & additions: Vacuum tubes will & do clip. A vacuum tube is a voltage controlled device while a transistor is a current controlled device and either can be driven to clip. Clipping is nothing more than the device being turned all the way on or off before the input signal reaches full potential. Transisitor clipping is sharper than vacuum tube clipping. Vacuum tube amps distort more than transistor amps and the vacuum tube distortion is interpreted as a "warmer sound". Transistor amp manufacturers have not been able to duplicate this distortion because it's mechanical - it's in the physical tube design itself. I can still hear the difference in the old radios & amps I work on today. You believe the sound from a vacuum tube amp is "higher quality" because it actually sounds better. Put a scope on the output of a tube amp & a transistor amp and compare the difference and it's obvious that the transistor amp output is cleaner. Tom www.kegkits.com - Original Message - From: Peter Frederick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: 12/29/07 5:13 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List CC: Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity Fidelity = true to source. Not today! Vacuum tube amps always sound much better than transistor amps, as they don't clip (covert too high an amplitude sine wave to a flat topped wave, with extra harmonics). Takes an enormous capacity transistor to not clip, and tubes never do. Other than the background hiss of electrons flying an inch or so, they are much nicer. Some problems with exact reproduction due to internal hysteresis, but that's present in transistor amps, too. Given that MP3 compressions are rather extreme (and everyone has crappy amplifiers in their iPods and etc turned up way beyond ear damage level --why anyone MAKES an amplifier that puts out more than 80 dB in those things is beyond me), the norm now is really bad reproduction, mostly of really poor musical quality stuff to start with (a stick on a plastic trash can over one's head, sort of). No one remembers what real sound was, nothing is live anymore (rock concerts are mostly tape, I believe), and most listeners have hearing damage, there is no hope. It's been going downhill for a long time, every since orchestral music was no longer recorded with a pair of mikes in the auditorium and was instead "mixed" from one stuffed up each instrument. Digitization has markedly degraded things since, as it's way too easy to fiddle it later. I'm all for live and recordings ON TAPE IN ANALOG with unchanged reproduction. Not a chance in the bad place, I guess. Ditto for photography, by the way -- digital is easier, but I'm unconvinced that it's better. Just the old curmudgeon here. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.12/1202 - Release Date: 12/29/2007 1:27 PM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Peter, I'm an old vacuum tube guy and I still restore vacuum tube radios and amps today. Some corrections & additions: Vacuum tubes will & do clip. A vacuum tube is a voltage controlled device while a transistor is a current controlled device and either can be driven to clip. Clipping is nothing more than the device being turned all the way on or off before the input signal reaches full potential. Transisitor clipping is sharper than vacuum tube clipping. Vacuum tube amps distort more than transistor amps and the vacuum tube distortion is interpreted as a "warmer sound". Transistor amp manufacturers have not been able to duplicate this distortion because it's mechanical - it's in the physical tube design itself. I can still hear the difference in the old radios & amps I work on today. You believe the sound from a vacuum tube amp is "higher quality" because it actually sounds better. Put a scope on the output of a tube amp & a transistor amp and compare the difference and it's obvious that the transistor amp output is cleaner. Tom www.kegkits.com - Original Message - From: Peter Frederick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: 12/29/07 5:13 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List CC: Subject: Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity Fidelity = true to source. Not today! Vacuum tube amps always sound much better than transistor amps, as they don't clip (covert too high an amplitude sine wave to a flat topped wave, with extra harmonics). Takes an enormous capacity transistor to not clip, and tubes never do. Other than the background hiss of electrons flying an inch or so, they are much nicer. Some problems with exact reproduction due to internal hysteresis, but that's present in transistor amps, too. Given that MP3 compressions are rather extreme (and everyone has crappy amplifiers in their iPods and etc turned up way beyond ear damage level --why anyone MAKES an amplifier that puts out more than 80 dB in those things is beyond me), the norm now is really bad reproduction, mostly of really poor musical quality stuff to start with (a stick on a plastic trash can over one's head, sort of). No one remembers what real sound was, nothing is live anymore (rock concerts are mostly tape, I believe), and most listeners have hearing damage, there is no hope. It's been going downhill for a long time, every since orchestral music was no longer recorded with a pair of mikes in the auditorium and was instead "mixed" from one stuffed up each instrument. Digitization has markedly degraded things since, as it's way too easy to fiddle it later. I'm all for live and recordings ON TAPE IN ANALOG with unchanged reproduction. Not a chance in the bad place, I guess. Ditto for photography, by the way -- digital is easier, but I'm unconvinced that it's better. Just the old curmudgeon here. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.12/1202 - Release Date: 12/29/2007 1:27 PM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
i'm thinking, what would phil spector do about all this? then it occurs to me that he'd just shoot some woman. On Dec 29, 2007 3:54 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The death of music, more likely. > > > > http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/1619/the_death_of_high_fidelity/print > > > > ** > See AOL's top rated recipes > (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304) > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
Fidelity = true to source. Not today! Vacuum tube amps always sound much better than transistor amps, as they don't clip (covert too high an amplitude sine wave to a flat topped wave, with extra harmonics). Takes an enormous capacity transistor to not clip, and tubes never do. Other than the background hiss of electrons flying an inch or so, they are much nicer. Some problems with exact reproduction due to internal hysteresis, but that's present in transistor amps, too. Given that MP3 compressions are rather extreme (and everyone has crappy amplifiers in their iPods and etc turned up way beyond ear damage level --why anyone MAKES an amplifier that puts out more than 80 dB in those things is beyond me), the norm now is really bad reproduction, mostly of really poor musical quality stuff to start with (a stick on a plastic trash can over one's head, sort of). No one remembers what real sound was, nothing is live anymore (rock concerts are mostly tape, I believe), and most listeners have hearing damage, there is no hope. It's been going downhill for a long time, every since orchestral music was no longer recorded with a pair of mikes in the auditorium and was instead "mixed" from one stuffed up each instrument. Digitization has markedly degraded things since, as it's way too easy to fiddle it later. I'm all for live and recordings ON TAPE IN ANALOG with unchanged reproduction. Not a chance in the bad place, I guess. Ditto for photography, by the way -- digital is easier, but I'm unconvinced that it's better. Just the old curmudgeon here. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] The death of high fidelity
I have always thought the high fidelity stereo sounded better in the 50's and 60's that it did in later years and the present. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > The death of music, more likely. > > > http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/1619/the_death_of_high_fidelity/print > > > > ** > See AOL's top rated recipes > (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304) > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 94 E420, 92 300SD, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 84 190D, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] The death of high fidelity
The death of music, more likely. http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/1619/the_death_of_high_fidelity/print ** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
