Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Craig,

There were two auxiliary propulsion units (APUs) mounted about 1/3 of the 
ship's length from the bow.  They were electric and could be retracted when not 
in use, and rotated 360 degrees.  A skilled ship driver could use those and the 
main engine to maneuver pier-side or get underway with no tug boat if the 
opposing wind and tide were low (less than 15 knots wind or one knot of tide).

However, using the APUs to counteract the stern walk was a losing battle.  We 
found it was better to use momentum and good judgement to "coast" the ship up 
to the pier and get just close enough to get lines over, and then use the lines 
to pull the ship in the last few yards.

One could balance the APUs against the stern walk and twist the ship if needed, 
but that was usually a slow dance, very trying for Sailors waiting to get off 
the ship after a period at sea.  Far more efficient to come at the pier with a 
few knots speed (below three knots of forward speed the rudder became 
ineffective), and then kick the rudder to get the stern going the right way, 
and apply reverse thrust with propeller and APUs at just the right time.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On September 12, 2015 10:21:24 PM EDT, Craig via Mercedes 
 wrote:
>
>I'll bet it did. But didn't you have stern thrusters to counteract
>that?
>
>
>Craig
>
>

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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

Jim wrote:
> 90% of such a proposal would be a materials problem.

GE made the news this year - 3D printed turbine engine.
What's that all about?
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Some years ago, I was involved in the design and build of a Allison 250
turbine engine sprint car [dirt track]. The engine used for that car came
from the residual engines from the Indy car. It came as a pallet of parts
and tech manuals.

The car was configured as a 4 wheel drive sprint car, turbine engine
powered. Double radical design.

It ran successfully in competition with way more power than it needed,
however because it was built around a direct drive connection [at the
owners insistence despite my strong advice otherwise] the car was simply
not manageable in the short dirt track.
To make the corners at full power and speed off the straights it required
massive brakes to slow down against the engine at peak power..

After only a couple laps, the massive 4 wheel double caliper brakes were
glowing red hot... a couple more laps and the tires caught on fire from
brake heat.. serious energy management problem, to say the least.

Several fixes were tried, all within the owners [check writers] fixation
with direct drive coupling.. None worked... other than spend more of the
owners money.

I came forward with a modification of the compressor surge valve which
would dump compressor air, connected to a foot throttle.. so the driver
controlled not the fuel but the air available for combustion. This would
allow a needed reduction of power going into the turns with an almost
instant return to full power upon closing the modified surge valve.
Since this device played on the combustion can pressure wave front, if not
handled carefully, it could cause the engine to flame out, or to "Surge",
which is a condition where the flame front travels from the burner can
forward in the flow path and out through the compressor section ..
potentially with violence enough to destroy the compressor blades, so
driver has to know what to do to manage the engine.

The race season finished while the modification was being worked out, the
owner/check writer decided he had lost enough money pursuing his "pet car"
and the sponsors weren't impressed with it's poor showing on the circuit,
thus it got rolled into the back of the warehouse to be sold off for race
parts and who knows where it is now..

Power to weight ratio was really fantastic. The engine put out a constant
1,200 HP in a car that weighed 1,400 lbs, so the potential was there.. just
couldn't manage the power in the environment effectively.

On Sat, Sep 12, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> cool.  I didn't read the earlier posts but figured someone must have
> remembered that.  Us Hoosiers I guess...
>
> I have this idea that there should be an "unlimited" race series, let the
> drivers assess the risk and have at it.  It would generate all kinds of
> interesting engineering and vehicles and perhaps safety innovations too.
> Enough of all the wimpy rules and restrictions.
>
> --R
>
>
>
> On 9/12/15 12:05 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:
>
>> I mentioned this early in the thread.
>>
>> I saw the car run twice (actually more than that if you include time
>> trials and carburetion day) and it was amazing.
>>
>> Yes, it dropped out with eight laps to go, not due to an engine issue but
>> a bearing failure in the transmission.
>>
>> The following year it was wrecked and never driven again.
>>
>> And of course USAC pretty much ruled it out of competition by mandating
>> an inlet opening that limited the top speed.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Sep 12, 2015, at 11:09 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes <
>>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey, y'all remember Parnelli Jones's turbine car at the Indy 500,
>>> right?  Mid-late 60s?  I think he ran it 2 years and it was cleaning up the
>>> first time until a transmission bearing broke.  I forget what happened the
>>> next year, maybe a crash?  Then the race organizers banned turbines.  I
>>> don't remember much about it, I was fairly young, but I am assuming the
>>> turbine just ran at some fairly constant RPM and the tranny handled the
>>> speed aspect.  I think the advantage was it had high torque that let him
>>> sprint out of the turns.  I should study that some.
>>>
>>> --R
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>>
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>>
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>>
>>> ___
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>>
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>
>>
>>
>
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>
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>

Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 12 Sep 2015 11:52:18 -0500 Mountain Man via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Jim wrote:
> > 90% of such a proposal would be a materials problem.
> 
> GE made the news this year - 3D printed turbine engine.
> What's that all about?
> mao

http://3dprintingindustry.com/2014/11/11/ge-test-fires-mini-3d-printed-jet-engine/
Bartosik explains that, with the technology, not only could he
create complex geometries unattainable with other manufacturing
techniques, but that they were able to produce the parts for the
engine with high-temperature, high-strength alloys that they
wouldn’t have been able to create parts with otherwise. After
post-processing the printed parts with machining tools,
Bartosik’s team tested the RC engine in a test cell at GE
Aviation, getting it to run up to speeds of 33,000 RPMs.

http://engineertomorrow.com/watch-ges-3d-printed-mini-jet-engine-reach-speeds-up-to-33000-rpm/

Watch GE’s 3D-printed mini jet engine reach speeds up to
33,000 RPM

http://3dprint.com/11266/3d-printed-lpt-ge9x-777x/
GE Considers 3D Printing Turbine Blades for Next Generation
Boeing 777X’s GE9X Engines

If and when GE begins additively manufacturing these LPT [low
pressure turbine] blades, they will likely be produced from a
titanium aluminide powder, a strong, light-weight material which
is traditionally very difficult to work with. From an additive
manufacturing perspective, however, it is much easier to produce
parts with then with casting. While most major manufacturers are
not close to being ready to begin producing incredibly important
parts for products which must work perfectly, like that of an
aircraft engine, General Electric has been doing so for years.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/12/02/both-ge-and-rolls-royce-are-to-use-3d-printing-to-make-jet-engines-by-violating-enginererings-prime-commandment/
Both GE and Rolls Royce Are To Use 3D Printing To Make Jet
Engines And Violate Engineering's Prime Commandment

There is an old and important saying in engineering: fast, better,
cheaper. The point being that you can only ever have two out of
the three. But in this pair of tales about how both GE and Rolls
Royce are to be using 3D printing in order to produce their
respective jet engines we’ve an interesting violation of that
basic engineering commandment.

http://www.cnet.com/news/ge-releases-instructions-for-3d-printable-jet-engine/
GE releases instructions for 3D-printable jet engine

If you head over to Thingiverse, you can get instructions for a
hand-cranked, 3D-printable jet engine, courtesy of GE.

If you've ever felt your life didn't have enough jet engines in
it, now there's a way you can get one of your very own; just
don't expect it to actually power anything.

The engine in question is actually a 3D-printed model, designed
by GE. Although its parts move in the same way as a real jet
engine, it's scaled down, simplified, made of 3D printer
material, and powered not by combustion but by a hand crank. 

http://3dprintingindustry.com/2014/08/11/3d-printing-ge-jet-engine/
3D Printed, Mass Produced Parts To Give GE’s New Jet Engines an
Extra Boost

This video show exactly what GE’s has in mind for 3D printing:

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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Rich Thomas via Mercedes]

cool.  I didn't read the earlier posts but figured someone must have 
remembered that.  Us Hoosiers I guess...


I have this idea that there should be an "unlimited" race series, let 
the drivers assess the risk and have at it.  It would generate all kinds 
of interesting engineering and vehicles and perhaps safety innovations 
too.  Enough of all the wimpy rules and restrictions.


--R



On 9/12/15 12:05 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

I mentioned this early in the thread.

I saw the car run twice (actually more than that if you include time trials and 
carburetion day) and it was amazing.

Yes, it dropped out with eight laps to go, not due to an engine issue but a 
bearing failure in the transmission.

The following year it was wrecked and never driven again.

And of course USAC pretty much ruled it out of competition by mandating an 
inlet opening that limited the top speed.

Dan

Sent from my iPad


On Sep 12, 2015, at 11:09 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes  
wrote:

Hey, y'all remember Parnelli Jones's turbine car at the Indy 500, right?  
Mid-late 60s?  I think he ran it 2 years and it was cleaning up the first time 
until a transmission bearing broke.  I forget what happened the next year, 
maybe a crash?  Then the race organizers banned turbines.  I don't remember 
much about it, I was fairly young, but I am assuming the turbine just ran at 
some fairly constant RPM and the tranny handled the speed aspect.  I think the 
advantage was it had high torque that let him sprint out of the turns.  I 
should study that some.

--R



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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[WILTON via Mercedes]

I've always (well, since about 1946, anyway) thought it should be unlimited.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Rich Thomas via Mercedes" 

To: 
Cc: "Rich Thomas" 
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2015 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis 
h*ters]



cool.  I didn't read the earlier posts but figured someone must have 
remembered that.  Us Hoosiers I guess...


I have this idea that there should be an "unlimited" race series, let the 
drivers assess the risk and have at it.  It would generate all kinds of 
interesting engineering and vehicles and perhaps safety innovations too. 
Enough of all the wimpy rules and restrictions.


--R



On 9/12/15 12:05 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

I mentioned this early in the thread.

I saw the car run twice (actually more than that if you include time 
trials and carburetion day) and it was amazing.


Yes, it dropped out with eight laps to go, not due to an engine issue but 
a bearing failure in the transmission.


The following year it was wrecked and never driven again.

And of course USAC pretty much ruled it out of competition by mandating 
an inlet opening that limited the top speed.


Dan

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 12, 2015, at 11:09 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
 wrote:


Hey, y'all remember Parnelli Jones's turbine car at the Indy 500, right? 
Mid-late 60s?  I think he ran it 2 years and it was cleaning up the 
first time until a transmission bearing broke.  I forget what happened 
the next year, maybe a crash?  Then the race organizers banned turbines. 
I don't remember much about it, I was fairly young, but I am assuming 
the turbine just ran at some fairly constant RPM and the tranny handled 
the speed aspect.  I think the advantage was it had high torque that let 
him sprint out of the turns.  I should study that some.


--R



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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 12 Sep 2015 11:52:18 -0500 Mountain Man via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Jim wrote:
> > 90% of such a proposal would be a materials problem.
> 
> GE made the news this year - 3D printed turbine engine.
> What's that all about?
> mao

http://3dprintingindustry.com/2014/11/11/ge-test-fires-mini-3d-printed-jet-engine/
Bartosik explains that, with the technology, not only could he
create complex geometries unattainable with other manufacturing
techniques, but that they were able to produce the parts for the
engine with high-temperature, high-strength alloys that they
wouldn’t have been able to create parts with otherwise. After
post-processing the printed parts with machining tools,
Bartosik’s team tested the RC engine in a test cell at GE
Aviation, getting it to run up to speeds of 33,000 RPMs.

http://engineertomorrow.com/watch-ges-3d-printed-mini-jet-engine-reach-speeds-up-to-33000-rpm/

Watch GE’s 3D-printed mini jet engine reach speeds up to
33,000 RPM

http://3dprint.com/11266/3d-printed-lpt-ge9x-777x/
GE Considers 3D Printing Turbine Blades for Next Generation
Boeing 777X’s GE9X Engines

If and when GE begins additively manufacturing these LPT [low
pressure turbine] blades, they will likely be produced from a
titanium aluminide powder, a strong, light-weight material which
is traditionally very difficult to work with. From an additive
manufacturing perspective, however, it is much easier to produce
parts with then with casting. While most major manufacturers are
not close to being ready to begin producing incredibly important
parts for products which must work perfectly, like that of an
aircraft engine, General Electric has been doing so for years.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/12/02/both-ge-and-rolls-royce-are-to-use-3d-printing-to-make-jet-engines-by-violating-enginererings-prime-commandment/
Both GE and Rolls Royce Are To Use 3D Printing To Make Jet
Engines And Violate Engineering's Prime Commandment

There is an old and important saying in engineering: fast, better,
cheaper. The point being that you can only ever have two out of
the three. But in this pair of tales about how both GE and Rolls
Royce are to be using 3D printing in order to produce their
respective jet engines we’ve an interesting violation of that
basic engineering commandment.

http://www.cnet.com/news/ge-releases-instructions-for-3d-printable-jet-engine/
GE releases instructions for 3D-printable jet engine

If you head over to Thingiverse, you can get instructions for a
hand-cranked, 3D-printable jet engine, courtesy of GE.

If you've ever felt your life didn't have enough jet engines in
it, now there's a way you can get one of your very own; just
don't expect it to actually power anything.

The engine in question is actually a 3D-printed model, designed
by GE. Although its parts move in the same way as a real jet
engine, it's scaled down, simplified, made of 3D printer
material, and powered not by combustion but by a hand crank. 

http://3dprintingindustry.com/2014/08/11/3d-printing-ge-jet-engine/
3D Printed, Mass Produced Parts To Give GE’s New Jet Engines an
Extra Boost

This video show exactly what GE’s has in mind for 3D printing:

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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

HA.
The CVTs used in cars today in most cases is LITERALLY a snowmobile belt drive 
system. Good for up to maybe 200hp but shrapnel beyond that.
I wonder if you could make a hydraulic drive system that would survive it? 
Otherwise its a good place for a series hybrid...
-Curt


  From: Curly McLain via Mercedes 
 To: Mercedes Discussion List  
Cc: Curly McLain <126die...@gmail.com> 
 Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2015 7:55 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis 
h*ters]
   
Seems like a good application for a CVT.

>GMANN: Some years ago, I was involved in the design and build of a Allison 250


>turbine engine sprint car [dirt track]. The engine used for that car came
>from the residual engines from the Indy car. It came as a pallet of parts
>and tech manuals.
>
>The car was configured as a 4 wheel drive sprint car, turbine engine
>powered. Double radical design.
>
>It ran successfully in competition with way more power than it needed,
>however because it was built around a direct drive connection [at the
>owners insistence despite my strong advice otherwise] the car was simply
>not manageable in the short dirt track.
>To make the corners at full power and speed off the straights it required
>massive brakes to slow down against the engine at peak power..
>
>After only a couple laps, the massive 4 wheel double caliper brakes were
>glowing red hot... a couple more laps and the tires caught on fire from
>brake heat.. serious energy management problem, to say the least.
>
>Several fixes were tried, all within the owners [check writers] fixation
>with direct drive coupling.. None worked... other than spend more of the
>owners money.
>
>I came forward with a modification of the compressor surge valve which
>would dump compressor air, connected to a foot throttle.. so the driver
>controlled not the fuel but the air available for combustion. This would
>allow a needed reduction of power going into the turns with an almost
>instant return to full power upon closing the modified surge valve.
>Since this device played on the combustion can pressure wave front, if not
>handled carefully, it could cause the engine to flame out, or to "Surge",
>which is a condition where the flame front travels from the burner can
>forward in the flow path and out through the compressor section ..
>potentially with violence enough to destroy the compressor blades, so
>driver has to know what to do to manage the engine.
>
>The race season finished while the modification was being worked out, the
>owner/check writer decided he had lost enough money pursuing his "pet car"
>and the sponsors weren't impressed with it's poor showing on the circuit,
>thus it got rolled into the back of the warehouse to be sold off for race
>parts and who knows where it is now..
>
>Power to weight ratio was really fantastic. The engine put out a constant
>1,200 HP in a car that weighed 1,400 lbs, so the potential was there.. just
>couldn't manage the power in the environment effectively.
>

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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 12 Sep 2015 21:02:28 -0500 OK Don via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Hmmm - perhaps one of these would work for a series hybrid system?
> 
> http://www.jakadofsky.com/index1.php?bereichID=11=en



> 24/28 Volt, 300 Amps continuous

8.4 kW

> Consumption: 10 litres (2,5 gal) per hour

20 gallons in 8 hours


> Here's another one - just add the generator:
> 
> http://www.jetcatusa.com/spt5.html


> Fuel consumption: 8 oz per/min at full power

That equates to 3.75 gallons/hour -- more than the unit above!


> Maintenance interval: 25 hours

Aye, there's the rub!

Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 12 Sep 2015 21:02:28 -0500 OK Don via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Hmmm - perhaps one of these would work for a series hybrid system?
> 
> http://www.jakadofsky.com/index1.php?bereichID=11=en
> 
> Here's another one - just add the generator:
> 
> http://www.jetcatusa.com/spt5.html


Actually, better for adding a generator are:

http://www.jakadofsky.com/index1.php?bereichID=4=en

The page even has prices: 3999.00 - 8999.00 euros


The fuel consumption of the bottom turbine (the only one with fuel
consumption listed) is 3.17 gallons/hr.



Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 12 Sep 2015 22:04:24 -0400 Max Dillon via Mercedes
 wrote:

> The gas turbines on my old ship drove the main reduction gear by
> pushing the hot exhaust gas over a turbine, which was mechanically
> connected to drive an input shaft.  This was called a fluid coupling.

I wonder how efficient it was.


> The red. gear brought the speed down from some high RPM to about 100
> RPM, and then the propeller had variable pitch so the ship's speed
> could vary from reverse to about 30 knots forward.  Our stern would
> walk to starboard when the engines were at "all stop" because the shaft
> and prop were still spinning, which made docking maneuvering fun.

I'll bet it did. But didn't you have stern thrusters to counteract that?


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

The gas turbines on my old ship drove the main reduction gear by pushing the 
hot exhaust gas over a turbine, which was mechanically connected to drive an 
input shaft.  This was called a fluid coupling. The red. gear brought the speed 
down from some high RPM to about 100 RPM, and then the propeller had variable 
pitch so the ship's speed could vary from reverse to about 30 knots forward.  
Our stern would walk to starboard when the engines were at "all stop" because 
the shaft and prop were still spinning, which made docking maneuvering fun.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300
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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Curly McLain via Mercedes]

Seems like a good application for a CVT.


GMANN: Some years ago, I was involved in the design and build of a Allison 250
turbine engine sprint car [dirt track]. The engine used for that car came
from the residual engines from the Indy car. It came as a pallet of parts
and tech manuals.

The car was configured as a 4 wheel drive sprint car, turbine engine
powered. Double radical design.

It ran successfully in competition with way more power than it needed,
however because it was built around a direct drive connection [at the
owners insistence despite my strong advice otherwise] the car was simply
not manageable in the short dirt track.
To make the corners at full power and speed off the straights it required
massive brakes to slow down against the engine at peak power..

After only a couple laps, the massive 4 wheel double caliper brakes were
glowing red hot... a couple more laps and the tires caught on fire from
brake heat.. serious energy management problem, to say the least.

Several fixes were tried, all within the owners [check writers] fixation
with direct drive coupling.. None worked... other than spend more of the
owners money.

I came forward with a modification of the compressor surge valve which
would dump compressor air, connected to a foot throttle.. so the driver
controlled not the fuel but the air available for combustion. This would
allow a needed reduction of power going into the turns with an almost
instant return to full power upon closing the modified surge valve.
Since this device played on the combustion can pressure wave front, if not
handled carefully, it could cause the engine to flame out, or to "Surge",
which is a condition where the flame front travels from the burner can
forward in the flow path and out through the compressor section ..
potentially with violence enough to destroy the compressor blades, so
driver has to know what to do to manage the engine.

The race season finished while the modification was being worked out, the
owner/check writer decided he had lost enough money pursuing his "pet car"
and the sponsors weren't impressed with it's poor showing on the circuit,
thus it got rolled into the back of the warehouse to be sold off for race
parts and who knows where it is now..

Power to weight ratio was really fantastic. The engine put out a constant
1,200 HP in a car that weighed 1,400 lbs, so the potential was there.. just
couldn't manage the power in the environment effectively.



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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[OK Don via Mercedes]

Hmmm - perhaps one of these would work for a series hybrid system?

http://www.jakadofsky.com/index1.php?bereichID=11=en

Here's another one - just add the generator:

http://www.jetcatusa.com/spt5.html



-- 
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

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2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Problem set you need to consider:

1. Turbine engines do not "idle".. what you would equate to "idle" would be
70% RPM. Below that, the burner flame front and balance of air flow through
the engine becomes unstable. Operational power for small turbines comes on
in the 100,000 RPM range which translates to about 90% power setting.
Efficiency drops dramatically at "idle", fuel nozzle coking increases,
emissions increase, etc.

2. Because of the heat stress and RPM centrifugal stress generated with
each start and shutdown, the cycle life of a turbine engine is limited.
Repeatedly starting then shutting down the turbine subtracts a life cycle
with each start against the service limit of the engine.

Add all that into the design plan which you just laid out. The laws of
physics are not easily bent..

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 10:41 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Sep 2015 19:38:48 -0700
> Jim Cathey via Mercedes  wrote:
>
> > > What kind of turbine would one use?
> >
> > One that doesn't exist yet!
> >
> > > Any idea where to buy one?
> >
> > In the future, I hope.
> >
> > > Turbine engine may make sense on paper, but in reality, there is no
> > > cheap
> > > turbine engine.
> >
> > They're not cheap, so we don't sell a lot of them.  We don't sell
> > a lot of them, so there's no incentive to do the development to
> > make them cheap.  Circular problem.
> >
> > I still maintain that, if the materials and manufacturing received
> > even a fraction of the effort that has gone into Otto engines, small
> > (20HP or so) turbines would be highly attractive.  And _very_ well
> > suited for series hybrid applications.  (Not 'automotive' applications.
> > That term has too many implicit assumptions.)
> >
> > > How would one gear it down to useful RPM?
> >
> > By running at high RPM's, and taking the output as 3-phase electricity
> > not shaft horsepower, the thing would be relatively cheap and quite
> > efficient.  Yes, there would be some significant development costs.
> > But it would be small, efficient, hot, quiet, and reliable.  Not overly
> > cheap, but those other factors would make up for it.  And it (with
> > its battery pack and charge controller) would make a heck of a
> > jellybean component that would have many other uses, such
> > as a genny for an RV, emergency power, etc.
> >
> > If it existed, we would sell millions of the things.
> >
> > -- Jim
> _
>
> You're sitting in a rush hour traffic jam.
>
> The turbine is running at max and the current is going into the battery(s).
>
> The batteries fill up and the turbine shuts down.
>
> The traffic inches forward a few car lengths and the batteries drive the
> car forward to keep up with traffic.
>
> The traffic starts moving at normal speed and the batteries propel the car
> until exhausted. Then the turbine spools up, drives the car, and charges
> the batteries.
>
> You would probably need more battery capacity so the turbine would spool
> up and down less often than a typical hybrid cars engine.
>
> Based on how the Prius operates, it would very likely work, and with a few
> tweaks of a leased Prius control system (which is currently leased by Ford,
> GM, and several foreign manufacturers) the cost could be kept low for all
> but the turbine.
> Gerry
>
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>
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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

90% of such a proposal would be a materials problem.  Advantages
are that we're only talking about maybe 20HP, so the diameter of
the thing would be small, making the physical (but not thermal)
stresses more modest.  There would be LOTS of details to work
out; the development bill would be large.  I just think (wish?)
the payoff would be worth it.  With a single operating point
(which turbines kinda already have) the efficiency, noise, and
emissions could be optimized.  And it doesn't fly, so that'd
translate to a whole bunch of cost savings in the end.  That's
my dream, anyway.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I mentioned this early in the thread.

I saw the car run twice (actually more than that if you include time trials and 
carburetion day) and it was amazing.

Yes, it dropped out with eight laps to go, not due to an engine issue but a 
bearing failure in the transmission.

The following year it was wrecked and never driven again.

And of course USAC pretty much ruled it out of competition by mandating an 
inlet opening that limited the top speed.

Dan

Sent from my iPad

> On Sep 12, 2015, at 11:09 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hey, y'all remember Parnelli Jones's turbine car at the Indy 500, right?  
> Mid-late 60s?  I think he ran it 2 years and it was cleaning up the first 
> time until a transmission bearing broke.  I forget what happened the next 
> year, maybe a crash?  Then the race organizers banned turbines.  I don't 
> remember much about it, I was fairly young, but I am assuming the turbine 
> just ran at some fairly constant RPM and the tranny handled the speed aspect. 
>  I think the advantage was it had high torque that let him sprint out of the 
> turns.  I should study that some.
> 
> --R
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Rich Thomas via Mercedes]

Hey, y'all remember Parnelli Jones's turbine car at the Indy 500, 
right?  Mid-late 60s?  I think he ran it 2 years and it was cleaning up 
the first time until a transmission bearing broke.  I forget what 
happened the next year, maybe a crash?  Then the race organizers banned 
turbines.  I don't remember much about it, I was fairly young, but I am 
assuming the turbine just ran at some fairly constant RPM and the tranny 
handled the speed aspect.  I think the advantage was it had high torque 
that let him sprint out of the turns.  I should study that some.


--R



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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Yeah Columbus, threres nothing to the west but more ocean. Everybody knows 
that...



Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From:"G Mann via Mercedes" 
Date:Sat, Sep 12, 2015 at 2:07 AM
Subject:Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis  
h*ters]

Problem set you need to consider:

1. Turbine engines do not "idle".. what you would equate to "idle" would be
70% RPM. Below that, the burner flame front and balance of air flow through
the engine becomes unstable. Operational power for small turbines comes on
in the 100,000 RPM range which translates to about 90% power setting.
Efficiency drops dramatically at "idle", fuel nozzle coking increases,
emissions increase, etc.

2. Because of the heat stress and RPM centrifugal stress generated with
each start and shutdown, the cycle life of a turbine engine is limited.
Repeatedly starting then shutting down the turbine subtracts a life cycle
with each start against the service limit of the engine.

Add all that into the design plan which you just laid out. The laws of
physics are not easily bent..

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 10:41 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Sep 2015 19:38:48 -0700
> Jim Cathey via Mercedes  wrote:
>
> > > What kind of turbine would one use?
> >
> > One that doesn't exist yet!
> >
> > > Any idea where to buy one?
> >
> > In the future, I hope.
> >
> > > Turbine engine may make sense on paper, but in reality, there is no
> > > cheap
> > > turbine engine.
> >
> > They're not cheap, so we don't sell a lot of them.  We don't sell
> > a lot of them, so there's no incentive to do the development to
> > make them cheap.  Circular problem.
> >
> > I still maintain that, if the materials and manufacturing received
> > even a fraction of the effort that has gone into Otto engines, small
> > (20HP or so) turbines would be highly attractive.  And _very_ well
> > suited for series hybrid applications.  (Not 'automotive' applications.
> > That term has too many implicit assumptions.)
> >
> > > How would one gear it down to useful RPM?
> >
> > By running at high RPM's, and taking the output as 3-phase electricity
> > not shaft horsepower, the thing would be relatively cheap and quite
> > efficient.  Yes, there would be some significant development costs.
> > But it would be small, efficient, hot, quiet, and reliable.  Not overly
> > cheap, but those other factors would make up for it.  And it (with
> > its battery pack and charge controller) would make a heck of a
> > jellybean component that would have many other uses, such
> > as a genny for an RV, emergency power, etc.
> >
> > If it existed, we would sell millions of the things.
> >
> > -- Jim
> _
>
> You're sitting in a rush hour traffic jam.
>
> The turbine is running at max and the current is going into the battery(s).
>
> The batteries fill up and the turbine shuts down.
>
> The traffic inches forward a few car lengths and the batteries drive the
> car forward to keep up with traffic.
>
> The traffic starts moving at normal speed and the batteries propel the car
> until exhausted. Then the turbine spools up, drives the car, and charges
> the batteries.
>
> You would probably need more battery capacity so the turbine would spool
> up and down less often than a typical hybrid cars engine.
>
> Based on how the Prius operates, it would very likely work, and with a few
> tweaks of a leased Prius control system (which is currently leased by Ford,
> GM, and several foreign manufacturers) the cost could be kept low for all
> but the turbine.
> Gerry
>
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>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
>
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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

 As someone who was involved in research involving micro turbines for 
distributed power, I can fully agree with what Grant is saying.

Back in my Kohler days we looked closely at small gas turbines for power 
generation, and so many of the requirements were beyond the scope of realistic 
(economic) operation the project never moved forward.

They continue to pursue this in the industry, but I don't ever see it being 
viable on a large scale.

Dan

> On Sep 11, 2015, at 12:28 PM, G Mann via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Turbine engine may make sense on paper, but in reality, there is no cheap
> turbine engine.
> 
> Having several decades of experience in the manufacture, sale, and use of
> turbine engines, including APU [aux power unit] systems, my experience
> tells me the application is not practical for automotive use..
> 
> Expensive to build due to the high speed of operation and complicated
> compressor and turbine wheel required to make a turbine engine, of any size.
> Materials needed to withstand both temperature and speed of rotational
> components are expensive. A set of turbine wheels for a small APU will run
> you in the range of $20,000.
> 
> Couple with that, the start sequence is much more involved than "just
> turning the key". If air flow and fuel management are not correct, you will
> have a hot start and melt down of the turbine components. The same in
> reverse for shut down sequence.
> 
> Complicated operation requirements would not bode well to the general
> public, who are virtually incapable of pumping their own gas or checking
> tire pressure.
> 
> Just my thoughts, your mileage may vary.
> 
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 8:34 AM, Craig via Mercedes 
> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2015 21:33:00 -0700 Jim Cathey via Mercedes
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> The strength of a diesel is at partial throttle, which is
>>> not necessary in a series hybrid.  I think the _best_ series
>>> hybrid would be a small turbine engine.  Turbines, gas,
>>> and diesels are all approximately equally efficient at
>>> full throttle.  Turbines suck at throttle response.  That
>>> is not necessary in a battery charger in a series hybrid.
>>> So, fixed-speed running in its sweet spot, that's a turbine.
>>> 
>>> A turbine would be really small, and doesn't need a liquid
>>> cooling system.  (Just a little oil cooler.)  At fixed RPM
>>> you could really quiet it as well.  Co-gen for cabin heat
>>> would also be nice.
>> 
>> Tell me more!
>> 
>> What kind of fuel efficiency would one expect?
>> 
>> What kind of turbine would one use?
>> 
>> Any idea where to buy one?
>> 
>> How would one gear it down to useful RPM?
>> 
>> 
>> Craig
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Turbine engine may make sense on paper, but in reality, there is no cheap
turbine engine.

Having several decades of experience in the manufacture, sale, and use of
turbine engines, including APU [aux power unit] systems, my experience
tells me the application is not practical for automotive use..

Expensive to build due to the high speed of operation and complicated
compressor and turbine wheel required to make a turbine engine, of any size.
Materials needed to withstand both temperature and speed of rotational
components are expensive. A set of turbine wheels for a small APU will run
you in the range of $20,000.

Couple with that, the start sequence is much more involved than "just
turning the key". If air flow and fuel management are not correct, you will
have a hot start and melt down of the turbine components. The same in
reverse for shut down sequence.

Complicated operation requirements would not bode well to the general
public, who are virtually incapable of pumping their own gas or checking
tire pressure.

Just my thoughts, your mileage may vary.

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 8:34 AM, Craig via Mercedes 
wrote:

> On Thu, 10 Sep 2015 21:33:00 -0700 Jim Cathey via Mercedes
>  wrote:
>
> > The strength of a diesel is at partial throttle, which is
> > not necessary in a series hybrid.  I think the _best_ series
> > hybrid would be a small turbine engine.  Turbines, gas,
> > and diesels are all approximately equally efficient at
> > full throttle.  Turbines suck at throttle response.  That
> > is not necessary in a battery charger in a series hybrid.
> > So, fixed-speed running in its sweet spot, that's a turbine.
> >
> > A turbine would be really small, and doesn't need a liquid
> > cooling system.  (Just a little oil cooler.)  At fixed RPM
> > you could really quiet it as well.  Co-gen for cabin heat
> > would also be nice.
>
> Tell me more!
>
> What kind of fuel efficiency would one expect?
>
> What kind of turbine would one use?
>
> Any idea where to buy one?
>
> How would one gear it down to useful RPM?
>
>
> Craig
>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[G Mann via Mercedes]

So sorry to bring rain to the parade..

Reality is like that.   The internal combustion engine is noisy, stinks,
pollutes, and it's inefficient. However, to date, there is no practical
replacement for use in motorcars.

The theory can be raised that mankind is inherently lazy. Horses, for
example, require incredible effort to feed, contain, train, and tame. Yet,
for centuries, they were the method of transport because humans would
rather ride than walk..

Go Green, Be Clean as long as it's easy..

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Curly McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Turbine engine may make sense on paper, but in reality, there is no cheap
>> turbine engine.
>>
>> Having several decades of experience in the manufacture, sale, and use of
>> turbine engines, including APU [aux power unit] systems, my experience
>> tells me the application is not practical for automotive use..
>>
>> Expensive to build due to the high speed of operation and complicated
>> compressor and turbine wheel required to make a turbine engine, of any
>> size.
>> Materials needed to withstand both temperature and speed of rotational
>> components are expensive. A set of turbine wheels for a small APU will run
>> you in the range of $20,000.
>>
>> Couple with that, the start sequence is much more involved than "just
>> turning the key". If air flow and fuel management are not correct, you
>> will
>> have a hot start and melt down of the turbine components. The same in
>> reverse for shut down sequence.
>>
>> Complicated operation requirements would not bode well to the general
>> public, who are virtually incapable of pumping their own gas or checking
>> tire pressure.
>>
>> Just my thoughts, your mileage may vary.
>>
>
> Hmmm,
>
> Could it be that when theory meets real world, sometimes the theory does
> not stand up?   Naa, couldn't be..
>
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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Fri, 11 Sep 2015 09:56:52 -0700 G Mann via Mercedes
 wrote:

> So sorry to bring rain to the parade..
> 
> Reality is like that.   The internal combustion engine is noisy, stinks,
> pollutes, and it's inefficient. However, to date, there is no practical
> replacement for use in motorcars.

I'm not looking to use it in a motorcar ...


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Curly McLain via Mercedes]

On Fri, 11 Sep 2015 09:56:52 -0700 G Mann via Mercedes
 wrote:


 So sorry to bring rain to the parade..

 Reality is like that.   The internal combustion engine is noisy, stinks,
 pollutes, and it's inefficient. However, to date, there is no practical
 replacement for use in motorcars.


I'm not looking to use it in a motorcar ...

Craig


Craig,

You might find these interesting.  Jim Ettaro did many experiments 
with small gas turbines using hydrogen as a fuel.  I saw his 
turbocharger air pump run and I also saw the one in the second 
article run, and he had a third version he built that I saw run. 
Each was quite interesting, and the startup procedure did not appear 
that complex.  It would have been fairly simple to automate start up 
and shutdown with Jim's designs, however making one of the designs 
"failsafe" may not be simple.


Video of his small hydrogen turbine used to be on the calstate LA 
website, but I have not been able to find them for many years now.  I 
wish I had downloaded and saved them.  However Virgil Seaman at Cal 
State LA may be able to provide the video.


http://www.cleantransportationfunding.org/media_center/newsletter_articles/view/cal_state_l.a.s_new_sustainable_hydrogen_research_facility_looks_to_the_fut

http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=12791=rtd=1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fsearch%3Fclient%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26q%3Djim%2Bettaro%2Bhydrogen%2Bturbine%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8#search=%22jim%20ettaro%20hydrogen%20turbine%22

https://www.mail-archive.com/mercedes@okiebenz.com/msg119615.html 
Shhesh!  Okiebanz has lasted longer than Mercedes veterans or the 
Dickarde list.


http://www.calstatela.edu/univ/ppa/newsrel/supereagle2004f.htm


I would theorize that the small size of Jim's turbines and the 
hydrogen fuels avoided some of the problems Grant and Dan encountered 
with larger versions.  What is called a Microturbine generator (like 
a capstone) is in the 30 kW range, so is substantially larger than 
what Jim was dealing with.


I don't remember what engine he got the turbocharger from, but it was 
similar in size to the one on the 1.6L VW turbodiesel.  The final 
turbine engine I saw (that Jim made) was about 5" dia also.



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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

I've read about people making power with a Lister clone and using the waste 
heat in the house. Apparently its possible to find significant savings there. 
Lister engines are super cool too...
-Curt

  From: Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
 To: Okie Benz  
Cc: Dan Penoff  
 Sent: Friday, September 11, 2015 3:41 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis 
h*ters]
   
This reminds me that Kohler was doing something not long after I had left with 
“capstone” turbines.  Not sure of the significance, but I do recall the term 
being used.

I know they would have been relatively small units, if I recall in the 
10kW-15kW range.

They were talking at one time about producing them for use by restaurants like 
McDonald’s and Burger King to peak shave and provide hot water.

The projects I worked on that predated this were for the GE “Smart House” in 
Maryland.  One system we actually built and had operational there consisted of 
a three cylinder Yanmar diesel converted to natural gas running at 1200 RPM.  
There was a power management system using high current TRIACs that would allow 
the loads to be switched between the utility and the generator based on load 
balancing and peaks.  It was crude by today’s standards but worked well.  And 
the engine also produced hot water for domestic use through a heat exchanger, 
too.

One unit we took out of service had over 12,000 hours on it without ever being 
shut down or taken offline.  It could have gone a lot longer.  The insides were 
almost like new.

Dan


> On Sep 11, 2015, at 1:45 PM, Curly McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Craig,
> 
> You might find these interesting.  Jim Ettaro did many experiments with small 
> gas turbines using hydrogen as a fuel.  I saw his turbocharger air pump run 
> and I also saw the one in the second article run, and he had a third version 
> he built that I saw run. Each was quite interesting, and the startup 
> procedure did not appear that complex.  It would have been fairly simple to 
> automate start up and shutdown with Jim's designs, however making one of the 
> designs "failsafe" may not be simple.
> 
> Video of his small hydrogen turbine used to be on the calstate LA website, 
> but I have not been able to find them for many years now.  I wish I had 
> downloaded and saved them.  However Virgil Seaman at Cal State LA may be able 
> to provide the video.
> 
> http://www.cleantransportationfunding.org/media_center/newsletter_articles/view/cal_state_l.a.s_new_sustainable_hydrogen_research_facility_looks_to_the_fut
> 
> http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=12791=rtd=1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fsearch%3Fclient%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26q%3Djim%2Bettaro%2Bhydrogen%2Bturbine%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8#search=%22jim%20ettaro%20hydrogen%20turbine%22
> 
> https://www.mail-archive.com/mercedes@okiebenz.com/msg119615.html Shhesh!  
> Okiebanz has lasted longer than Mercedes veterans or the Dickarde list.
> 
> http://www.calstatela.edu/univ/ppa/newsrel/supereagle2004f.htm
> 
> 
> I would theorize that the small size of Jim's turbines and the hydrogen fuels 
> avoided some of the problems Grant and Dan encountered with larger versions.  
> What is called a Microturbine generator (like a capstone) is in the 30 kW 
> range, so is substantially larger than what Jim was dealing with.
> 
> I don't remember what engine he got the turbocharger from, but it was similar 
> in size to the one on the 1.6L VW turbodiesel.  The final turbine engine I 
> saw (that Jim made) was about 5" dia also.
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Curly McLain via Mercedes]

This reminds me that Kohler was doing something not long after I had 
left with "capstone" turbines.  Not sure of the significance, but I 
do recall the term being used.


I know they would have been relatively small units, if I recall in 
the 10kW-15kW range.


They were talking at one time about producing them for use by 
restaurants like McDonald's and Burger King to peak shave and 
provide hot water.


The projects I worked on that predated this were for the GE "Smart 
House" in Maryland.  One system we actually built and had 
operational there consisted of a three cylinder Yanmar diesel 
converted to natural gas running at 1200 RPM.  There was a power 
management system using high current TRIACs that would allow the 
loads to be switched between the utility and the generator based on 
load balancing and peaks.  It was crude by today's standards but 
worked well.  And the engine also produced hot water for domestic 
use through a heat exchanger, too.


One unit we took out of service had over 12,000 hours on it without 
ever being shut down or taken offline.  It could have gone a lot 
longer.  The insides were almost like new.


Dan


"Nothing runs like a Deere"  I was very impressed with the JD 5500 
(yanmar)  The gearshift was mickeymouse/klunky compared to the late 
60s/70s Dubuque tractors, but the engine, hydraulics, cab and 
everything else was nice.  The yanmar engine was way more 
sophisticated then the JDs of the same vintage.


75 HP in the size of a 15 HP IH A

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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

This reminds me that Kohler was doing something not long after I had left with 
“capstone” turbines.  Not sure of the significance, but I do recall the term 
being used.

I know they would have been relatively small units, if I recall in the 
10kW-15kW range.

They were talking at one time about producing them for use by restaurants like 
McDonald’s and Burger King to peak shave and provide hot water.

The projects I worked on that predated this were for the GE “Smart House” in 
Maryland.  One system we actually built and had operational there consisted of 
a three cylinder Yanmar diesel converted to natural gas running at 1200 RPM.  
There was a power management system using high current TRIACs that would allow 
the loads to be switched between the utility and the generator based on load 
balancing and peaks.  It was crude by today’s standards but worked well.  And 
the engine also produced hot water for domestic use through a heat exchanger, 
too.

One unit we took out of service had over 12,000 hours on it without ever being 
shut down or taken offline.  It could have gone a lot longer.  The insides were 
almost like new.

Dan


> On Sep 11, 2015, at 1:45 PM, Curly McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Craig,
> 
> You might find these interesting.  Jim Ettaro did many experiments with small 
> gas turbines using hydrogen as a fuel.  I saw his turbocharger air pump run 
> and I also saw the one in the second article run, and he had a third version 
> he built that I saw run. Each was quite interesting, and the startup 
> procedure did not appear that complex.  It would have been fairly simple to 
> automate start up and shutdown with Jim's designs, however making one of the 
> designs "failsafe" may not be simple.
> 
> Video of his small hydrogen turbine used to be on the calstate LA website, 
> but I have not been able to find them for many years now.  I wish I had 
> downloaded and saved them.  However Virgil Seaman at Cal State LA may be able 
> to provide the video.
> 
> http://www.cleantransportationfunding.org/media_center/newsletter_articles/view/cal_state_l.a.s_new_sustainable_hydrogen_research_facility_looks_to_the_fut
> 
> http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=12791=rtd=1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fsearch%3Fclient%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26q%3Djim%2Bettaro%2Bhydrogen%2Bturbine%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8#search=%22jim%20ettaro%20hydrogen%20turbine%22
> 
> https://www.mail-archive.com/mercedes@okiebenz.com/msg119615.html Shhesh!  
> Okiebanz has lasted longer than Mercedes veterans or the Dickarde list.
> 
> http://www.calstatela.edu/univ/ppa/newsrel/supereagle2004f.htm
> 
> 
> I would theorize that the small size of Jim's turbines and the hydrogen fuels 
> avoided some of the problems Grant and Dan encountered with larger versions.  
> What is called a Microturbine generator (like a capstone) is in the 30 kW 
> range, so is substantially larger than what Jim was dealing with.
> 
> I don't remember what engine he got the turbocharger from, but it was similar 
> in size to the one on the 1.6L VW turbodiesel.  The final turbine engine I 
> saw (that Jim made) was about 5" dia also.
> 
> 
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> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

> On Sep 11, 2015, at 4:44 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I've read about people making power with a Lister clone and using the waste 
> heat in the house. Apparently its possible to find significant savings there. 
> Lister engines are super cool too...
> -Curt
> 

And super heavy, and super expensive.  However, they are truly the 240D of the 
engine world, and will be around as long as cockroaches.  Or longer.

Dan


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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[fmiser via Mercedes]

> G wrote:
> 
> Turbine engine may make sense on paper, but in reality,
> there is no cheap turbine engine.

Yet.  I can dream.  If Andrew can dream of a only-solar
powered, I can dream of a practical, small turbine.

> my experience tells me the application is not practical for
> automotive use..

Yup.  So far, there aren't any.  

> ...the start sequence is much more involved
> than "just turning the key". If air flow and fuel
> management are not correct, you will have a hot start and
> melt down of the turbine components. The same in reverse
> for shut down sequence.

Is this any more complex than what the engine management
computers currently manipulate?

> Complicated operation requirements would not bode well to
> the general public, who are virtually incapable of pumping
> their own gas or checking tire pressure.

Too true.  However, I think in Jim's series hybrid, the
"propulsion management computer" would be in charge of
starting and stopping the turbine.  

And while the engineering challenges are immense, looking at
history there are a lot of formerly impossible things
currently being done.  Maybe we just need to motivate some
Honda engineers to take a crack at a 50 hp turbine.  

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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

Chryslers Turbine Cars of the '70s

".There were numerous functional challenges and limitations with the 
Turbine Cars, of which sluggish throttle response was the biggest. This is an 
inherent design limitation of turbines, as they need to spin up to over 40,000 
rpm to develop full power. The Turbine Car had a one and a half second lag from 
first pressing the throttle. That could be considered dangerous; it certainly 
would by today’s standards. Throttle lag was noticeable at higher speeds too. 
Performance was reasonable, about 12 seconds 0-60, but substantially less than 
if a 383 V8 were under that sleek hood. One extended test produced an average 
fuel economy of 11.5 mpg. Not terrible, but far from good. A comparably-quick 
conventional car at the time would be expected to achieve about 15 mpg.

The turbine offers the potential for superb longevity, but that depends on the 
extent to which exotic and expensive materials are utilized. Chrysler’s own 
test found that its turbine had a lifespan of “up to 175k miles”. Good for the 
times, but not really exceptional. Chrysler’s own slant sixes would typically 
go that far or further.

The scope of this article is not to fully explore the pros and cons of 
Chrysler’s turbines and their theoretical development potential. Suffice it 
say, the changing climate on emissions and fuel economy played their part in 
finally ending  the turbine program during the seventies. But the biggest 
single hurdle was cost. In Chrysler’s own words: “the technology did not exist 
to produce turbine engines at a price anywhere near competitive to conventional 
internal combustion engines"

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2009/11/the-truth-about-why-chrysler-destroyed-the-turbine-cars/


Dan Penoff wrote:
> This reminds me that Kohler was doing something not long after I had left 
> with “capstone” turbines.  Not sure of the significance, but I do recall the 
> term being used.
> I know they would have been relatively small units, if I recall in the 
> 10kW-15kW range.
> They were talking at one time about producing them for use by restaurants 
> like McDonald’s and Burger King to peak shave and provide hot water.
> The projects I worked on that predated this were for the GE “Smart House” in 
> Maryland.  One system we actually built and had operational there consisted 
> of a three cylinder Yanmar diesel converted to natural gas running at 1200 
> RPM.  There was a power management system using high current TRIACs that 
> would allow the loads to be switched between the utility and the generator 
> based on load balancing and peaks.  It was crude by today’s standards but 
> worked well.  And the engine also produced hot water for domestic use through 
> a heat exchanger, too.
> One unit we took out of service had over 12,000 hours on it without ever 
> being shut down or taken offline.  It could have gone a lot longer.  The 
> insides were almost like new.
> Dan
> 
> 
> > On Sep 11, 2015, at 1:45 PM, Curly McLain via Mercedes 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > Craig,
> > 
> > You might find these interesting.  Jim Ettaro did many experiments with 
> > small gas turbines using hydrogen as a fuel.  I saw his turbocharger air 
> > pump run and I also saw the one in the second article run, and he had a 
> > third version he built that I saw run. Each was quite interesting, and the 
> > startup procedure did not appear that complex.  It would have been fairly 
> > simple to automate start up and shutdown with Jim's designs, however making 
> > one of the designs "failsafe" may not be simple.
> > 
> > Video of his small hydrogen turbine used to be on the calstate LA website, 
> > but I have not been able to find them for many years now.  I wish I had 
> > downloaded and saved them.  However Virgil Seaman at Cal State LA may be 
> > able to provide the video.
> > 
> > http://www.cleantransportationfunding.org/media_center/newsletter_articles/view/cal_state_l.a.s_new_sustainable_hydrogen_research_facility_looks_to_the_fut
> > 
> > http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=12791=rtd=1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fsearch%3Fclient%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26q%3Djim%2Bettaro%2Bhydrogen%2Bturbine%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8#search=%22jim%20ettaro%20hydrogen%20turbine%22
> > 
> > https://www.mail-archive.com/mercedes@okiebenz.com/msg119615.html Shhesh!  
> > Okiebanz has lasted longer than Mercedes veterans or the Dickarde list.
> > 
> > http://www.calstatela.edu/univ/ppa/newsrel/supereagle2004f.htm
> > 
> > 
> > I would theorize that the small size of Jim's turbines and the hydrogen 
> > fuels avoided some of the problems Grant and Dan encountered with larger 
> > versions.  What is called a Microturbine generator (like a capstone) is in 
> > the 30 kW range, so is substantially larger than what Jim was dealing with.
> > 
> > I don't remember what engine he got the turbocharger from, but it was 
> > similar in size to the one on the 1.6L VW turbodiesel.  The 

Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

Grant wrote:
> Materials needed to withstand both temperature and speed of rotational
> components are expensive.

Address the story heard recently that GE has created a 3D printed turbine.
Thanks.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 11/09/2015 3:44 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:

I've read about people making power with a Lister clone and using the waste 
heat in the house. Apparently its possible to find significant savings there. 
Lister engines are super cool too...
-Curt



A lot of effort and trouble.
I participate in another list where one of the fellows went through that 
experience. He did it for a while but has given it up.
He is in a fairly warm climate too - Victoria BC so not trying to do it 
in a spot like here on the prairies.


RB

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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 11/09/2015 3:55 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

On Sep 11, 2015, at 4:44 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes  
wrote:

I've read about people making power with a Lister clone and using the waste 
heat in the house. Apparently its possible to find significant savings there. 
Lister engines are super cool too...
-Curt


And super heavy, and super expensive.  However, they are truly the 240D of the 
engine world, and will be around as long as cockroaches.  Or longer.

Dan




But made in India and the quality is questionable.

RB

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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Dodge (well Chrysler I presume) made some kind of a turbine engine car way back 
in the '60s. Apparently it was actually quite nice to drive. I forget where I 
read the article about it, probably a magazine, it was awhile ago.
All the issues related to startup and shutdown can be easily computer 
controlled, think of all the stuff the computer does in a Prius anyway...
-Curt
  From: G Mann via Mercedes 
 To: Mercedes Discussion List  
Cc: G Mann  
 Sent: Friday, September 11, 2015 12:56 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis 
h*ters]
   
So sorry to bring rain to the parade..

Reality is like that.  The internal combustion engine is noisy, stinks,
pollutes, and it's inefficient. However, to date, there is no practical
replacement for use in motorcars.

The theory can be raised that mankind is inherently lazy. Horses, for
example, require incredible effort to feed, contain, train, and tame. Yet,
for centuries, they were the method of transport because humans would
rather ride than walk..

Go Green, Be Clean as long as it's easy..

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Curly McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Turbine engine may make sense on paper, but in reality, there is no cheap
>> turbine engine.
>>
>> Having several decades of experience in the manufacture, sale, and use of
>> turbine engines, including APU [aux power unit] systems, my experience
>> tells me the application is not practical for automotive use..
>>
>> Expensive to build due to the high speed of operation and complicated
>> compressor and turbine wheel required to make a turbine engine, of any
>> size.
>> Materials needed to withstand both temperature and speed of rotational
>> components are expensive. A set of turbine wheels for a small APU will run
>> you in the range of $20,000.
>>
>> Couple with that, the start sequence is much more involved than "just
>> turning the key". If air flow and fuel management are not correct, you
>> will
>> have a hot start and melt down of the turbine components. The same in
>> reverse for shut down sequence.
>>
>> Complicated operation requirements would not bode well to the general
>> public, who are virtually incapable of pumping their own gas or checking
>> tire pressure.
>>
>> Just my thoughts, your mileage may vary.
>>
>
> Hmmm,
>
> Could it be that when theory meets real world, sometimes the theory does
> not stand up?  Naa, couldn't be..
>
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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I suspect he’s talking about the legacy Listers, not modern day ones.

The “originals” Listers were practically machined out of a solid block of 
steel.  You couldn’t kill them.  20,000 hours was not unheard of without any 
service other than basic maintenance.

I used to work for a guy years ago who was big into supporting missionaries in 
third world countries, like Africa.  We would build up generators using a 
Lister ST-1, a single cylinder Lister, and a 3kW-4kW alternator (generator) on 
it.  Nothing more than that and a hand crank and hose to go into the Jerry can. 
 We would weld them up into steel barrels for transport and tack weld a chisel 
on the outside of the barrel.

When they arrived at their destination the locals would break the chisel off 
and chisel the barrel open to get the generator out.  We learned this the hard 
way, as the first couple we shipped never made it as we just closed the sealing 
strap on the drum with a shipping seal. When they arrived the drum would be 
empty….

Dan


> On Sep 11, 2015, at 5:24 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 11/09/2015 3:55 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:
>>> On Sep 11, 2015, at 4:44 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I've read about people making power with a Lister clone and using the waste 
>>> heat in the house. Apparently its possible to find significant savings 
>>> there. Lister engines are super cool too...
>>> -Curt
>>> 
>> And super heavy, and super expensive.  However, they are truly the 240D of 
>> the engine world, and will be around as long as cockroaches.  Or longer.
>> 
>> Dan
>> 
>> 
>> 
> But made in India and the quality is questionable.
> 
> RB
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

Grant wrote:
> Go Green, Be Clean as long as it's easy..

Too true!!
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

On Fri, 11 Sep 2015 19:38:48 -0700
Jim Cathey via Mercedes  wrote:

> > What kind of turbine would one use?
> 
> One that doesn't exist yet!
> 
> > Any idea where to buy one?
> 
> In the future, I hope.
> 
> > Turbine engine may make sense on paper, but in reality, there is no 
> > cheap
> > turbine engine.
> 
> They're not cheap, so we don't sell a lot of them.  We don't sell
> a lot of them, so there's no incentive to do the development to
> make them cheap.  Circular problem.
> 
> I still maintain that, if the materials and manufacturing received
> even a fraction of the effort that has gone into Otto engines, small
> (20HP or so) turbines would be highly attractive.  And _very_ well
> suited for series hybrid applications.  (Not 'automotive' applications.
> That term has too many implicit assumptions.)
> 
> > How would one gear it down to useful RPM?
> 
> By running at high RPM's, and taking the output as 3-phase electricity
> not shaft horsepower, the thing would be relatively cheap and quite
> efficient.  Yes, there would be some significant development costs.
> But it would be small, efficient, hot, quiet, and reliable.  Not overly
> cheap, but those other factors would make up for it.  And it (with
> its battery pack and charge controller) would make a heck of a
> jellybean component that would have many other uses, such
> as a genny for an RV, emergency power, etc.
> 
> If it existed, we would sell millions of the things.
> 
> -- Jim
_

You're sitting in a rush hour traffic jam.

The turbine is running at max and the current is going into the battery(s).

The batteries fill up and the turbine shuts down.

The traffic inches forward a few car lengths and the batteries drive the car 
forward to keep up with traffic.

The traffic starts moving at normal speed and the batteries propel the car 
until exhausted. Then the turbine spools up, drives the car, and charges the 
batteries.

You would probably need more battery capacity so the turbine would spool up and 
down less often than a typical hybrid cars engine.

Based on how the Prius operates, it would very likely work, and with a few 
tweaks of a leased Prius control system (which is currently leased by Ford, GM, 
and several foreign manufacturers) the cost could be kept low for all but the 
turbine.
Gerry

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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Just so happens that I had opportunity to inspect then drive, for a short
test drive, one of the Dodge Bros/ Chrysler turbine powered car, back when
it came out.

Local dealer had one in for a show and tell demonstration, with all the
"This is the Wave of the Future" hoopla..

It was incredibly noisy, produced exhaust heat that really was not managed
well, and required a college degree to start and shut down. But,, all that
said, once running, the power far exceeded the car design and the brakes
were so inadequate I made the comment it needed a drogue chute to slow it
down.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2009/11/the-truth-about-why-chrysler-destroyed-the-turbine-cars/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZUXcJf_8Lc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWev6JTI6S0

These 3 links above should fulfill your daily requirement for Auto Porn,
and give you some insight into the use of turbines in cars..

Pretty sure the car I drove was one of those crushed.

Grant...

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 10:43 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Dodge (well Chrysler I presume) made some kind of a turbine engine car way
> back in the '60s. Apparently it was actually quite nice to drive. I forget
> where I read the article about it, probably a magazine, it was awhile ago.
> All the issues related to startup and shutdown can be easily computer
> controlled, think of all the stuff the computer does in a Prius anyway...
> -Curt
>   From: G Mann via Mercedes 
>  To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: G Mann 
>  Sent: Friday, September 11, 2015 12:56 PM
>  Subject: Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf
> Pruis h*ters]
>
> So sorry to bring rain to the parade..
>
> Reality is like that.  The internal combustion engine is noisy, stinks,
> pollutes, and it's inefficient. However, to date, there is no practical
> replacement for use in motorcars.
>
> The theory can be raised that mankind is inherently lazy. Horses, for
> example, require incredible effort to feed, contain, train, and tame. Yet,
> for centuries, they were the method of transport because humans would
> rather ride than walk..
>
> Go Green, Be Clean as long as it's easy..
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Curly McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > Turbine engine may make sense on paper, but in reality, there is no cheap
> >> turbine engine.
> >>
> >> Having several decades of experience in the manufacture, sale, and use
> of
> >> turbine engines, including APU [aux power unit] systems, my experience
> >> tells me the application is not practical for automotive use..
> >>
> >> Expensive to build due to the high speed of operation and complicated
> >> compressor and turbine wheel required to make a turbine engine, of any
> >> size.
> >> Materials needed to withstand both temperature and speed of rotational
> >> components are expensive. A set of turbine wheels for a small APU will
> run
> >> you in the range of $20,000.
> >>
> >> Couple with that, the start sequence is much more involved than "just
> >> turning the key". If air flow and fuel management are not correct, you
> >> will
> >> have a hot start and melt down of the turbine components. The same in
> >> reverse for shut down sequence.
> >>
> >> Complicated operation requirements would not bode well to the general
> >> public, who are virtually incapable of pumping their own gas or checking
> >> tire pressure.
> >>
> >> Just my thoughts, your mileage may vary.
> >>
> >
> > Hmmm,
> >
> > Could it be that when theory meets real world, sometimes the theory does
> > not stand up?  Naa, couldn't be..
> >
> > ___
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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

What kind of turbine would one use?


One that doesn't exist yet!


Any idea where to buy one?


In the future, I hope.

Turbine engine may make sense on paper, but in reality, there is no 
cheap

turbine engine.


They're not cheap, so we don't sell a lot of them.  We don't sell
a lot of them, so there's no incentive to do the development to
make them cheap.  Circular problem.

I still maintain that, if the materials and manufacturing received
even a fraction of the effort that has gone into Otto engines, small
(20HP or so) turbines would be highly attractive.  And _very_ well
suited for series hybrid applications.  (Not 'automotive' applications.
That term has too many implicit assumptions.)


How would one gear it down to useful RPM?


By running at high RPM's, and taking the output as 3-phase electricity
not shaft horsepower, the thing would be relatively cheap and quite
efficient.  Yes, there would be some significant development costs.
But it would be small, efficient, hot, quiet, and reliable.  Not overly
cheap, but those other factors would make up for it.  And it (with
its battery pack and charge controller) would make a heck of a
jellybean component that would have many other uses, such
as a genny for an RV, emergency power, etc.

If it existed, we would sell millions of the things.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[WILTON via Mercedes]

'63 Chrysler.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "archer75--- via Mercedes" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Cc: 
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2015 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis 
h*ters]





Chryslers Turbine Cars of the '70s

".There were numerous functional challenges and limitations with the 
Turbine Cars, of which sluggish throttle response was the biggest. This is 
an inherent design limitation of turbines, as they need to spin up to over 
40,000 rpm to develop full power. The Turbine Car had a one and a half 
second lag from first pressing the throttle. That could be considered 
dangerous; it certainly would by today’s standards. Throttle lag was 
noticeable at higher speeds too. Performance was reasonable, about 12 
seconds 0-60, but substantially less than if a 383 V8 were under that 
sleek hood. One extended test produced an average fuel economy of 11.5 
mpg. Not terrible, but far from good. A comparably-quick conventional car 
at the time would be expected to achieve about 15 mpg.


The turbine offers the potential for superb longevity, but that depends on 
the extent to which exotic and expensive materials are utilized. Chrysler’s 
own test found that its turbine had a lifespan of “up to 175k miles”. Good 
for the times, but not really exceptional. Chrysler’s own slant sixes 
would typically go that far or further.


The scope of this article is not to fully explore the pros and cons of 
Chrysler’s turbines and their theoretical development potential. Suffice 
it say, the changing climate on emissions and fuel economy played their 
part in finally ending  the turbine program during the seventies. But the 
biggest single hurdle was cost. In Chrysler’s own words: “the technology 
did not exist to produce turbine engines at a price anywhere near 
competitive to conventional internal combustion engines"


http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2009/11/the-truth-about-why-chrysler-destroyed-the-turbine-cars/


Dan Penoff wrote:
This reminds me that Kohler was doing something not long after I had left 
with “capstone” turbines.  Not sure of the significance, but I do recall 
the term being used.
I know they would have been relatively small units, if I recall in the 
10kW-15kW range.
They were talking at one time about producing them for use by restaurants 
like McDonald’s and Burger King to peak shave and provide hot water.
The projects I worked on that predated this were for the GE “Smart House” 
in Maryland.  One system we actually built and had operational there 
consisted of a three cylinder Yanmar diesel converted to natural gas 
running at 1200 RPM.  There was a power management system using high 
current TRIACs that would allow the loads to be switched between the 
utility and the generator based on load balancing and peaks.  It was 
crude by today’s standards but worked well.  And the engine also produced 
hot water for domestic use through a heat exchanger, too.
One unit we took out of service had over 12,000 hours on it without ever 
being shut down or taken offline.  It could have gone a lot longer.  The 
insides were almost like new.

Dan


> On Sep 11, 2015, at 1:45 PM, Curly McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:

>
> Craig,
>
> You might find these interesting.  Jim Ettaro did many experiments with 
> small gas turbines using hydrogen as a fuel.  I saw his turbocharger 
> air pump run and I also saw the one in the second article run, and he 
> had a third version he built that I saw run. Each was quite 
> interesting, and the startup procedure did not appear that complex.  It 
> would have been fairly simple to automate start up and shutdown with 
> Jim's designs, however making one of the designs "failsafe" may not be 
> simple.

>
> Video of his small hydrogen turbine used to be on the calstate LA 
> website, but I have not been able to find them for many years now.  I 
> wish I had downloaded and saved them.  However Virgil Seaman at Cal 
> State LA may be able to provide the video.

>
> 
http://www.cleantransportationfunding.org/media_center/newsletter_articles/view/cal_state_l.a.s_new_sustainable_hydrogen_research_facility_looks_to_the_fut
>
> 
http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=12791=rtd=1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fsearch%3Fclient%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26q%3Djim%2Bettaro%2Bhydrogen%2Bturbine%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8#search=%22jim%20ettaro%20hydrogen%20turbine%22
>
> https://www.mail-archive.com/mercedes@okiebenz.com/msg119615.html 
> Shhesh!  Okiebanz has lasted longer than Mercedes veterans or the 
> Dickarde list.

>
> http://www.calstatela.edu/univ/ppa/newsrel/supereagle2004f.htm
>
>
> I would theorize that the small size of Jim's turbines and the hydrogen 
> fuels avoided some of the problems Grant and Dan encountered with 
> larger versions.  What is called a Microturbine generator (like a 
> capstone) 

[MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015 21:33:00 -0700 Jim Cathey via Mercedes
 wrote:

> The strength of a diesel is at partial throttle, which is
> not necessary in a series hybrid.  I think the _best_ series
> hybrid would be a small turbine engine.  Turbines, gas,
> and diesels are all approximately equally efficient at
> full throttle.  Turbines suck at throttle response.  That
> is not necessary in a battery charger in a series hybrid.
> So, fixed-speed running in its sweet spot, that's a turbine.
> 
> A turbine would be really small, and doesn't need a liquid
> cooling system.  (Just a little oil cooler.)  At fixed RPM
> you could really quiet it as well.  Co-gen for cabin heat
> would also be nice.

Tell me more!

What kind of fuel efficiency would one expect?

What kind of turbine would one use?

Any idea where to buy one?

How would one gear it down to useful RPM?


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Turbines for power and heat [was Re: The demise pf Pruis h*ters]

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

I used to be assigned to USS LEWIS B. PULLER (FFG 23) which used two gas
turbine engines for main propulsion.  LM-2500 engines I think, same basic
design as used in a DC-9 from foggy memory.  20,000 shaft horse power from
each engine. Under normal operations, the Engineering Section began for
getting underway 24 hours prior to casting off from the pier, but the gas
turbine engines would not be lit off until an hour or so prior.  In an
emergency, that whole cycle could be compressed to about 30-45 minutes, and
one of our Chief Engineer's bragged that he could take the engines from
stone cold to ready for helm orders in 10 minutes if needed.

This compares to a steam plant which may take a full 24 hours just to be
ready for helm orders, with limited ability to shorten that if the plant
was stone cold.

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Craig via Mercedes 
wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Sep 2015 09:56:52 -0700 G Mann via Mercedes
>  wrote:
>
> > So sorry to bring rain to the parade..
> >
> > Reality is like that.   The internal combustion engine is noisy, stinks,
> > pollutes, and it's inefficient. However, to date, there is no practical
> > replacement for use in motorcars.
>
> I'm not looking to use it in a motorcar ...
>
>
> Craig
>
> ___
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