Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

I think you need to look at the amps rating, which of course is related 
to watts but the LED strips want amps from what I can tell.  The RGB LED 
strips (and I think the white ones too) are 2A/meter so a 5A wall wart 
can drive 2meter+.


You might want to buy some plugs for the end of the wall wart that have 
screw contacts to wire the LED strips to, that makes it easier to hook 
them up.  I bought a bunch of them from banggood, they were dirt cheap.  
Makes it easy to use them for other projects too where you need some 
good power and ease of connection.  You can just plug the wall wart 
round end right into them.


--FT


On 9/25/16 11:59 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:

Thanks Russ,

Hitlights has one 15w PS for $9 that should work.

I am still confused about the "current limiting" power supply. To me 
that phrase means that the current demand would change with the type 
of LED and the length of the tape (number of LEDs).  This makes me 
believe that the PS would have to be exactly matched to the number and 
rating of the LEDs on the tape.


However most of the PS seem to be generic wall warts, and you only 
need to make sure the number of watts will drive the length of the LED 
strip you have.


I am guessing the 15w PS will drive the 30 to 40" of LED strip I will 
end up with.  (2 x 15" to 20" of strip, depending on where the cut 
marks are)



Russ Williams via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 10:31 PM
Try this site Jim
https://www.hitlights.com/led-power-supplies-controls.html
I've bought light and PS from them.

Russ W.





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Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 7:58 PM
I don't know where to get a 'good' LED PS. Most assemblies have them
built-in. Consider that our lowly 48" fluorescent shop lights eat bulbs
like crazy. They have cheap electronic ballasts in them. The old-school
fixtures with magnetic ballasts in them have never needed a new bulb, 
and
they run on the same circuit and with the same bulbs. (The ballast is 
the
bulb power supply. Current-limited mid-voltage while running, with HV 
and

bulb-warming starting capabilities too.)

LED's also need power supplies, but radically different. (Well, the
current-limiting is sort of the same. But the rest is all different.)
Except for incandescents, line power is NOT a good match for ANY 
lighting

technology. (Well, maybe EL, but that's dim, and green...) Even that,
maybe. Seems like around 6-12V is optimum for incandescents, so a simple
transformer power supply is their PS. (The longer thinner filaments for
higher voltages are kind of fragile. But automotive headlights
successfully put up with a lot of crap.)

-- Jim
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Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 5:03 PM
Most replacements simply require the fixture to be re-wired for 120V 
without the ballast.  The PS is built into the lamps.


Peter

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Curley McLain 
September 24, 2016 at 12:56 PM
So IF you buy a LED product that says it wants 12VDC, then we have to 
assume it has a built in power supply that is cheap and effective 
enough to get out of warranty, but not efficient or reliable nor 
effective for the long term, unless we get lucky?


So where do we buy a good LED PS that is efficient, effective and 
reliable?


I am about to embark on converting two 1950s vintage 15 W (18") 
fluorescent fixtures into LEDS.  I have ordered 2 20" LED strip 
lights, but no PS.  I could not find a PS from that vendor.   I have 
cleaned and painted the fixtures white.  Now waiting for the fixtures 
to arrive.  Unfortunately, they are too long. After they arrive I 
will try to figure out if there is a way to cut them down to fit.


Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 12:14 PM


LED's don't want 12VDC any more than they want 120VAC. They want 2-4VDC
(depends on the color, etc.), _current limited_. This conversion has 
to be

efficient, effective, and reliable. And, cheap. Pick any two!

-- Jim
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_

Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Yes, I have seen on many light bub replacements that there is not much 
energy savings.  Nowhere near what we are told we will save with an 
LED.   For example, an LED screw in bub I looked at was rated as 7W, but 
in further reading, the actual consumption was 35W.  That is 5x the 
rating, and nearly the 45W that would be a roughly equivalent 
incandescent bub.



Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
September 25, 2016 at 1:29 PM
Incandescent bulbs have a positive temperature coefficient. As they heat
up the resistance goes up, so they are inherently 'safe' and 
load-balancing

in a constant-voltage environment such as are supplied by batteries or
power lines. Other lighting technologies, such as ionized gases or
semiconductor devices, have _negative_ temperature coefficients. As they
heat up the resistance goes _down_, and thus they draw more current, heat
up more, draw even more current... It's called thermal runaway, and it
destroys the device PDQ. Current limiting devices, traditionally called
ballasts (presumably a naval reference) are required for these. LED's,
_raw_ LED's, are semiconductor devices, and so need a ballast. A resistor
is sufficient, if there's enough voltage headroom to waste, but does
represent wasted energy. A more elaborate active ballast, also called a
constant-current power supply, can be used instead, and might be more
efficient.

Any kind of LED _assembly_ might well have some kind of devices in it
beyond the raw LED's. You just have to know. Or look and see them, or
infer it from the specifications. Marketing brochures are usually
worthless.

A traditional red LED indicator light needed 20mA at about 2.5V, or 50mW.
If a resistor was used, in a 5V-powered computer, 50mW would also be
consumed in the resistor. In a 12V car, 200mW would be lost in the
resistor. In other words, 1/2-4/5 of the energy would be wasted. (Not
counting the part wasted as heat inside the LED.) Irrelevant for an
indicator in a line-powered computer or a fueled car, but intolerable in a
battery-powered LED flashlight.

I just bought a 10W LED flashlight, as part of our raccoon abatement
program. It's bright. It's a single device, not an array, and clearly at
that power level a resistor is NOT what is being used as a ballast. At
that level the devices are thermally running on the edge of destruction
normally, so the power supply is going to be one of the better ones.

-- Jim
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Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
September 25, 2016 at 12:23 PM

http://ledt8bulb.com/led-t8-tubes/18-inch-led-tubes.html

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Curley McLain 
September 25, 2016 at 11:16 AM
I have searched albore's internet for LED replacement bubs for  15W 
fluorescent, with no appropriate results.   I could not find 18" long 
LED strip fixtures either.  They are 20" or longer, or 12" or 
shorter.  So I settled  on the 20" strip fixture and cutting off one 
repeat from the strip in each one, then cut the fixture to 18.5" to 
just cover the holes from the bub holders.   When the strip lights 
arrive, I may abandon the whole idea if I can't get them to look "right"


I have a Lawson medicine cabinet with the 15w lights attached on each 
side.  It is very useful and practical, and fits the space, unlike all 
the new mirrors and lights they want to sell now.   After the vintage 
unit was refinished, it looks  nice.  I suspect within 10 years the 
15w tubes will become unobtanium or muchoexpensiveum.  One ballast is 
making a lot of noise on the radio, so I figured replacing the tubes 
with LED could solve both problems for the cost of replacing one ballast.


I used to be able to buy a single tube strip light for $10, then I 
could salvage the ballast for cheaper than the $15 replacement 
ballast.  now they want $30 for the single tube fixture, and the 
ballast was around $25.



Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
September 25, 2016 at 9:03 AM
They do make 15 watt replacements, but they are not common yet.  I 
need to do "surgery" on my 1956 fixtures in the bathrooms as well.


Did two of the ones in the garage this year, a PITA but not too bad.  
Two bad ballasts, so no point in replacing bulbs, and so far they are 
great after six months.  Much more light than old flickering burnt out 
tubes!


You will need to re-wire the fixtures, typically the 15 watt 
replacements have hot and common on one end of the new "bulb" and you 
may need to replace the tombstones, and there are bulbs that are a 
direct f

Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 10:59:32 -0500 Curley McLain via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Thanks Russ,
> 
> Hitlights has one 15w PS for $9 that should work.
> 
> I am still confused about the "current limiting" power supply.   To me 
> that phrase means that the current demand would change with the type of 
> LED and the length of the tape (number of LEDs).  This makes me believe 
> that the PS would have to be exactly matched to the number and rating
> of the LEDs on the tape.
>
> However most of the PS seem to be generic wall warts, and you only need 
> to make sure the number of watts will drive the length of the LED strip 
> you have.

As I mentioned in another email, the LED strips (tapes) have ballast
resistors for each LED. Thus they run off a constant-voltage power supply.
You do indeed "only need to make sure the number of watts will drive the
length of the LED strip you have.


> I am guessing the 15w PS will drive the 30 to 40" of LED strip I will 
> end up with.  (2 x 15" to 20" of strip, depending on where the cut
> marks are)

Most likely the 15 W power supply will be overkill.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

Incandescent bulbs have a positive temperature coefficient.  As they heat
up the resistance goes up, so they are inherently 'safe' and load-balancing
in a constant-voltage environment such as are supplied by batteries or
power lines.  Other lighting technologies, such as ionized gases or
semiconductor devices, have _negative_ temperature coefficients.  As they
heat up the resistance goes _down_, and thus they draw more current, heat
up more, draw even more current... It's called thermal runaway, and it
destroys the device PDQ.  Current limiting devices, traditionally called
ballasts (presumably a naval reference) are required for these.  LED's,
_raw_ LED's, are semiconductor devices, and so need a ballast.  A resistor
is sufficient, if there's enough voltage headroom to waste, but does
represent wasted energy.  A more elaborate active ballast, also called a
constant-current power supply, can be used instead, and might be more
efficient.

Any kind of LED _assembly_ might well have some kind of devices in it
beyond the raw LED's.  You just have to know.  Or look and see them, or
infer it from the specifications.  Marketing brochures are usually
worthless.

A traditional red LED indicator light needed 20mA at about 2.5V, or 50mW.
If a resistor was used, in a 5V-powered computer, 50mW would also be
consumed in the resistor.  In a 12V car, 200mW would be lost in the
resistor.  In other words, 1/2-4/5 of the energy would be wasted.  (Not
counting the part wasted as heat inside the LED.)  Irrelevant for an
indicator in a line-powered computer or a fueled car, but intolerable in a
battery-powered LED flashlight.

I just bought a 10W LED flashlight, as part of our raccoon abatement
program.  It's bright.  It's a single device, not an array, and clearly at
that power level a resistor is NOT what is being used as a ballast.  At
that level the devices are thermally running on the edge of destruction
normally, so the power supply is going to be one of the better ones.

-- Jim
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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On September 25, 2016 at 12:16 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> I have searched albore's internet for LED replacement bubs for  15W 
> fluorescent, with no appropriate results.

http://ledt8bulb.com/led-t8-tubes/18-inch-led-tubes.html

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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

Search for T10 replacement bulbs.

You want a current limited power supply for LEDs so the voltage drops  
with over-draw, else you tend to burn out the LEDs I think -- that  
data is out there too, I've seen it but don't remember where.  Sorta  
above my head, I'm a biologist not an electrical engineer.


There will be replacement bulbs for 15" fixtures eventually, the main  
market is the 8 and 4 ft industrial applications.


T12 bulbs are already out, as are T12 ballasts, T10 and T8 are still  
manufactured.  T12's are energy hogs compared to T10's with electronic  
ballasts if you discount the failure rate of the electronic ballasts  
-- the old "magnetic" inductors tend to last forever and a day, but  
with declining efficiency as the windings acquire resistance and the  
current draw goes up (and light output goes down),


If I get some time I'll do some searching, I know I've seen both  
direct replacement 15W bulbs and re-wire required ones, but I don't  
remember where.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

I have searched albore's internet for LED replacement bubs for  15W 
fluorescent, with no appropriate results.   I could not find 18" long 
LED strip fixtures either.  They are 20" or longer, or 12" or shorter.  
So I settled  on the 20" strip fixture and cutting off one repeat from 
the strip in each one, then cut the fixture to 18.5" to just cover the 
holes from the bub holders.   When the strip lights arrive, I may 
abandon the whole idea if I can't get them to look "right"


I have a Lawson medicine cabinet with the 15w lights attached on each 
side.  It is very useful and practical, and fits the space, unlike all 
the new mirrors and lights they want to sell now.   After the vintage 
unit was refinished, it looks  nice.  I suspect within 10 years the 15w 
tubes will become unobtanium or muchoexpensiveum.  One ballast is making 
a lot of noise on the radio, so I figured replacing the tubes with LED 
could solve both problems for the cost of replacing one ballast.


I used to be able to buy a single tube strip light for $10, then I could 
salvage the ballast for cheaper than the $15 replacement ballast.  now 
they want $30 for the single tube fixture, and the ballast was around $25.



Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
September 25, 2016 at 9:03 AM
They do make 15 watt replacements, but they are not common yet.  I 
need to do "surgery" on my 1956 fixtures in the bathrooms as well.


Did two of the ones in the garage this year, a PITA but not too bad.  
Two bad ballasts, so no point in replacing bulbs, and so far they are 
great after six months.  Much more light than old flickering burnt out 
tubes!


You will need to re-wire the fixtures, typically the 15 watt 
replacements have hot and common on one end of the new "bulb" and you 
may need to replace the tombstones, and there are bulbs that are a 
direct fit.  Again, you will need to dig around to find them, they are 
not yet in placed like the big box stores.


Peter

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Curley McLain 
September 24, 2016 at 8:33 PM
they don't have replacement LED bubs for 15 watt fluorescent.  I will 
be removing the bub holders and putting the led strip lights over the 
top of the old base.


I need a PS that will fit where the old ballast fits,   or, 
alternatively in the wall below or above the medicine cabinet.



Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 5:03 PM
Most replacements simply require the fixture to be re-wired for 120V 
without the ballast.  The PS is built into the lamps.


Peter

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Curley McLain 
September 24, 2016 at 12:56 PM
So IF you buy a LED product that says it wants 12VDC, then we have to 
assume it has a built in power supply that is cheap and effective 
enough to get out of warranty, but not efficient or reliable nor 
effective for the long term, unless we get lucky?


So where do we buy a good LED PS that is efficient, effective and 
reliable?


I am about to embark on converting two 1950s vintage 15 W (18") 
fluorescent fixtures into LEDS.  I have ordered 2 20" LED strip 
lights, but no PS.  I could not find a PS from that vendor.   I have 
cleaned and painted the fixtures white.  Now waiting for the fixtures 
to arrive.  Unfortunately, they are too long.  After they arrive I 
will try to figure out if there is a way to cut them down to fit.


Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 12:14 PM


LED's don't want 12VDC any more than they want 120VAC. They want 2-4VDC
(depends on the color, etc.), _current limited_. This conversion has to be
efficient, effective, and reliable. And, cheap. Pick any two!

-- Jim
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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Thanks Russ,

Hitlights has one 15w PS for $9 that should work.

I am still confused about the "current limiting" power supply.   To me 
that phrase means that the current demand would change with the type of 
LED and the length of the tape (number of LEDs).  This makes me believe 
that the PS would have to be exactly matched to the number and rating of 
the LEDs on the tape.


However most of the PS seem to be generic wall warts, and you only need 
to make sure the number of watts will drive the length of the LED strip 
you have.


I am guessing the 15w PS will drive the 30 to 40" of LED strip I will 
end up with.  (2 x 15" to 20" of strip, depending on where the cut marks 
are)



Russ Williams via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 10:31 PM
Try this site Jim
https://www.hitlights.com/led-power-supplies-controls.html
I've bought light and PS from them.

Russ W.





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Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 7:58 PM
I don't know where to get a 'good' LED PS. Most assemblies have them
built-in. Consider that our lowly 48" fluorescent shop lights eat bulbs
like crazy. They have cheap electronic ballasts in them. The old-school
fixtures with magnetic ballasts in them have never needed a new bulb, and
they run on the same circuit and with the same bulbs. (The ballast is the
bulb power supply. Current-limited mid-voltage while running, with HV and
bulb-warming starting capabilities too.)

LED's also need power supplies, but radically different. (Well, the
current-limiting is sort of the same. But the rest is all different.)
Except for incandescents, line power is NOT a good match for ANY lighting
technology. (Well, maybe EL, but that's dim, and green...) Even that,
maybe. Seems like around 6-12V is optimum for incandescents, so a simple
transformer power supply is their PS. (The longer thinner filaments for
higher voltages are kind of fragile. But automotive headlights
successfully put up with a lot of crap.)

-- Jim
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Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 5:03 PM
Most replacements simply require the fixture to be re-wired for 120V 
without the ballast.  The PS is built into the lamps.


Peter

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Curley McLain 
September 24, 2016 at 12:56 PM
So IF you buy a LED product that says it wants 12VDC, then we have to 
assume it has a built in power supply that is cheap and effective 
enough to get out of warranty, but not efficient or reliable nor 
effective for the long term, unless we get lucky?


So where do we buy a good LED PS that is efficient, effective and 
reliable?


I am about to embark on converting two 1950s vintage 15 W (18") 
fluorescent fixtures into LEDS.  I have ordered 2 20" LED strip 
lights, but no PS.  I could not find a PS from that vendor.   I have 
cleaned and painted the fixtures white.  Now waiting for the fixtures 
to arrive.  Unfortunately, they are too long.  After they arrive I 
will try to figure out if there is a way to cut them down to fit.


Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 12:14 PM


LED's don't want 12VDC any more than they want 120VAC. They want 2-4VDC
(depends on the color, etc.), _current limited_. This conversion has to be
efficient, effective, and reliable. And, cheap. Pick any two!

-- Jim
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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[MG via Mercedes]

You might look here.
https://www.superbrightleds.com/cat/installation-power/

I got some stuff from them a while ago and will be getting a 
power supply or two later. They have just about anything you 
might need.


Also there is,
http://www.ledssuperbright.com/led-power-supply-c-20?zenid=cbc9e66f001153297d3f1ea1253d5e1a

and
https://www.ledlight.com/12-volt-led-power-supplies.aspx

Don't remember much about them but had them in my bookmarks.

Manfred



Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2016 20:47:28 -0500
From: Curley McLain <126die...@gmail.com>




Most of of the tape and some of the fixtures holding the LED tape are 
sold without a PS.


I was under the impression I could use a 12v wall wart, but those would 
not be "current limiting"So how do I figure the current limit for 
15-17" of tape and where do I find current limiting PS choices?




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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

They do make 15 watt replacements, but they are not common yet.  I  
need to do "surgery" on my 1956 fixtures in the bathrooms as well.


Did two of the ones in the garage this year, a PITA but not too bad.   
Two bad ballasts, so no point in replacing bulbs, and so far they are  
great after six months.  Much more light than old flickering burnt out  
tubes!


You will need to re-wire the fixtures, typically the 15 watt  
replacements have hot and common on one end of the new "bulb" and you  
may need to replace the tombstones, and there are bulbs that are a  
direct fit.  Again, you will need to dig around to find them, they are  
not yet in placed like the big box stores.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

eBay or Amazon.

I have bought them from both sources without issues.

Apple LCD displays use a power brick that puts out +/- 5VDC at fairly high 
amperage (7A or more depending on the size of the display.) These have a fairly 
short life and are stupid expensive (+$150) to replace.

It's known in the Mac DIY world that you can replace these with an inexpensive 
$20 switching power supply.

I have two 23" Apple Cinema Displays I got for $100/each that needed power 
supplies. A $25 20A switching power supply on eBay or Amazon is under $30 and 
runs both nicely.

Dan

> On Sep 25, 2016, at 5:39 AM, archer75--- via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Jim Cathey wrote:
>> I don't know where to get a 'good' LED PS.
> 
> It would seem that a 17-19v laptop ps would drive an LED string of lights, or 
> even a 12v ps for electronic equipment of various kinds?
> I'm not up to date on LED or flourescent technology, so I just assume that's 
> what you want the ps for.
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

Adafruit will sell you what you need, LED strips, individual LEDs, PSs, 
whatever.  If you want to go disco, get some of the LED RGB rings, put a 
little controller on them with a remote, and set up your colors, 
lighting patterns, etc.  They are quite bright too.  I've got three to 
put in the bar "ceiling" when I get a round tuit, also a RGB strip to do 
the same with.


--FT


On 9/24/16 9:47 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:
Most of of the tape and some of the fixtures holding the LED tape are 
sold without a PS.


I was under the impression I could use a 12v wall wart, but those 
would not be "current limiting"So how do I figure the current 
limit for 15-17" of tape and where do I find current limiting PS choices?



Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 7:58 PM
I don't know where to get a 'good' LED PS. Most assemblies have them
built-in. Consider that our lowly 48" fluorescent shop lights eat bulbs
like crazy. They have cheap electronic ballasts in them. The old-school
fixtures with magnetic ballasts in them have never needed a new bulb, 
and
they run on the same circuit and with the same bulbs. (The ballast is 
the
bulb power supply. Current-limited mid-voltage while running, with HV 
and

bulb-warming starting capabilities too.)

LED's also need power supplies, but radically different. (Well, the
current-limiting is sort of the same. But the rest is all different.)
Except for incandescents, line power is NOT a good match for ANY 
lighting

technology. (Well, maybe EL, but that's dim, and green...) Even that,
maybe. Seems like around 6-12V is optimum for incandescents, so a simple
transformer power supply is their PS. (The longer thinner filaments for
higher voltages are kind of fragile. But automotive headlights
successfully put up with a lot of crap.)

-- Jim
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Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 5:03 PM
Most replacements simply require the fixture to be re-wired for 120V 
without the ballast.  The PS is built into the lamps.


Peter

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Curley McLain 
September 24, 2016 at 12:56 PM
So IF you buy a LED product that says it wants 12VDC, then we have to 
assume it has a built in power supply that is cheap and effective 
enough to get out of warranty, but not efficient or reliable nor 
effective for the long term, unless we get lucky?


So where do we buy a good LED PS that is efficient, effective and 
reliable?


I am about to embark on converting two 1950s vintage 15 W (18") 
fluorescent fixtures into LEDS.  I have ordered 2 20" LED strip 
lights, but no PS.  I could not find a PS from that vendor.   I have 
cleaned and painted the fixtures white.  Now waiting for the fixtures 
to arrive.  Unfortunately, they are too long. After they arrive I 
will try to figure out if there is a way to cut them down to fit.


Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 12:14 PM


LED's don't want 12VDC any more than they want 120VAC. They want 2-4VDC
(depends on the color, etc.), _current limited_. This conversion has 
to be

efficient, effective, and reliable. And, cheap. Pick any two!

-- Jim
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Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 7:55 AM
The early chinese ones were quite iffy.  Now that the major 
manufacturers are making them, In expect the quality to improve.


That said, one of the nasty "corn cob" ones I bought a few years ago 
is still working -- strobes a bit once in a while, but still good 
after about 5 years.  It's twin only lasted about six months.


All the failures I've see so far appear to be power supply failures 
(each bulb has a DC converter in it).  Someday we will get smart and 
put a big DC power supply in the house and wire all the lights with 
12V DC.  Then the "bulbs" will last a very long time


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

Jim Cathey wrote:
> I don't know where to get a 'good' LED PS.

It would seem that a 17-19v laptop ps would drive an LED string of lights, or 
even a 12v ps for electronic equipment of various kinds?
I'm not up to date on LED or flourescent technology, so I just assume that's 
what you want the ps for.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Russ Williams via Mercedes]

Try this site Jim
https://www.hitlights.com/led-power-supplies-controls.html
I've bought light and PS from them.

Russ W.

On Sat,9/24/16 19:58, Jim Cathey via Mercedes wrote:

I don't know where to get a 'good' LED PS.  Most assemblies have them
built-in.  Consider that our lowly 48" fluorescent shop lights eat bulbs
like crazy.  They have cheap electronic ballasts in them.  The old-school
fixtures with magnetic ballasts in them have never needed a new bulb, and
they run on the same circuit and with the same bulbs.  (The ballast is the
bulb power supply.  Current-limited mid-voltage while running, with HV and
bulb-warming starting capabilities too.)

LED's also need power supplies, but radically different.  (Well, the
current-limiting is sort of the same.  But the rest is all different.)
  Except for incandescents, line power is NOT a good match for ANY lighting
technology.  (Well, maybe EL, but that's dim, and green...)  Even that,
maybe.  Seems like around 6-12V is optimum for incandescents, so a simple
transformer power supply is their PS.  (The longer thinner filaments for
higher voltages are kind of fragile.  But automotive headlights
successfully put up with a lot of crap.)

-- Jim
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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13074 - Release Date: 09/24/16






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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 20:47:28 -0500 Curley McLain via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Most of of the tape and some of the fixtures holding the LED tape are 
> sold without a PS.
> 
> I was under the impression I could use a 12v wall wart, but those would 
> not be "current limiting"So how do I figure the current limit for 
> 15-17" of tape and where do I find current limiting PS choices?

The LED tapes have resistor ballasts for the LEDs -- one resistor for
each LED.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Most of of the tape and some of the fixtures holding the LED tape are 
sold without a PS.


I was under the impression I could use a 12v wall wart, but those would 
not be "current limiting"So how do I figure the current limit for 
15-17" of tape and where do I find current limiting PS choices?



Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 7:58 PM
I don't know where to get a 'good' LED PS. Most assemblies have them
built-in. Consider that our lowly 48" fluorescent shop lights eat bulbs
like crazy. They have cheap electronic ballasts in them. The old-school
fixtures with magnetic ballasts in them have never needed a new bulb, and
they run on the same circuit and with the same bulbs. (The ballast is the
bulb power supply. Current-limited mid-voltage while running, with HV and
bulb-warming starting capabilities too.)

LED's also need power supplies, but radically different. (Well, the
current-limiting is sort of the same. But the rest is all different.)
Except for incandescents, line power is NOT a good match for ANY lighting
technology. (Well, maybe EL, but that's dim, and green...) Even that,
maybe. Seems like around 6-12V is optimum for incandescents, so a simple
transformer power supply is their PS. (The longer thinner filaments for
higher voltages are kind of fragile. But automotive headlights
successfully put up with a lot of crap.)

-- Jim
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Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 5:03 PM
Most replacements simply require the fixture to be re-wired for 120V 
without the ballast.  The PS is built into the lamps.


Peter

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Curley McLain 
September 24, 2016 at 12:56 PM
So IF you buy a LED product that says it wants 12VDC, then we have to 
assume it has a built in power supply that is cheap and effective 
enough to get out of warranty, but not efficient or reliable nor 
effective for the long term, unless we get lucky?


So where do we buy a good LED PS that is efficient, effective and 
reliable?


I am about to embark on converting two 1950s vintage 15 W (18") 
fluorescent fixtures into LEDS.  I have ordered 2 20" LED strip 
lights, but no PS.  I could not find a PS from that vendor.   I have 
cleaned and painted the fixtures white.  Now waiting for the fixtures 
to arrive.  Unfortunately, they are too long.  After they arrive I 
will try to figure out if there is a way to cut them down to fit.


Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 12:14 PM


LED's don't want 12VDC any more than they want 120VAC. They want 2-4VDC
(depends on the color, etc.), _current limited_. This conversion has to be
efficient, effective, and reliable. And, cheap. Pick any two!

-- Jim
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Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 7:55 AM
The early chinese ones were quite iffy.  Now that the major 
manufacturers are making them, In expect the quality to improve.


That said, one of the nasty "corn cob" ones I bought a few years ago 
is still working -- strobes a bit once in a while, but still good 
after about 5 years.  It's twin only lasted about six months.


All the failures I've see so far appear to be power supply failures 
(each bulb has a DC converter in it).  Someday we will get smart and 
put a big DC power supply in the house and wire all the lights with 
12V DC.  Then the "bulbs" will last a very long time


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

they don't have replacement LED bubs for 15 watt fluorescent.  I will be 
removing the bub holders and putting the led strip lights over the top 
of the old base.


I need a PS that will fit where the old ballast fits,   or, 
alternatively in the wall below or above the medicine cabinet.



Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 5:03 PM
Most replacements simply require the fixture to be re-wired for 120V 
without the ballast.  The PS is built into the lamps.


Peter



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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

I don't know where to get a 'good' LED PS.  Most assemblies have them
built-in.  Consider that our lowly 48" fluorescent shop lights eat bulbs
like crazy.  They have cheap electronic ballasts in them.  The old-school
fixtures with magnetic ballasts in them have never needed a new bulb, and
they run on the same circuit and with the same bulbs.  (The ballast is the
bulb power supply.  Current-limited mid-voltage while running, with HV and
bulb-warming starting capabilities too.)

LED's also need power supplies, but radically different.  (Well, the
current-limiting is sort of the same.  But the rest is all different.)
 Except for incandescents, line power is NOT a good match for ANY lighting
technology.  (Well, maybe EL, but that's dim, and green...)  Even that,
maybe.  Seems like around 6-12V is optimum for incandescents, so a simple
transformer power supply is their PS.  (The longer thinner filaments for
higher voltages are kind of fragile.  But automotive headlights
successfully put up with a lot of crap.)

-- Jim
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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

Most replacements simply require the fixture to be re-wired for 120V  
without the ballast.  The PS is built into the lamps.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

--FT wrote:
> MB decided to give that a go too, not sure where that stands.

AA Mercedes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arQ8_PW-RiA
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Remember, Neither Elton Musk NOR Tesla motors have ever done anything 
without big boatloads of gooberment (YOUR) money!



Craig via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 3:30 PM
On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 11:59:03 -0500 Mountain Man via Mercedes

Tesla has been talking about doing exactly that.


Craig


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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

And buying a PC company...

Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Sat, Sep 24, 2016 at 4:30 PM, Craig via Mercedes 
wrote:   On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 11:59:03 -0500 Mountain Man via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Curley wrote:
> > My grandparents house was first wired for low voltage DC.
> 
> Nice!
> That could work today?  Tesla could make low voltage batteries for
> homes, have Tesla supply PV.

Tesla has been talking about doing exactly that.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 11:59:03 -0500 Mountain Man via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Curley wrote:
> > My grandparents house was first wired for low voltage DC.
> 
> Nice!
> That could work today?  Tesla could make low voltage batteries for
> homes, have Tesla supply PV.

Tesla has been talking about doing exactly that.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 07:55:58 -0500 Peter Frederick via Mercedes
 wrote:

> All the failures I've see so far appear to be power supply failures  
> (each bulb has a DC converter in it).  Someday we will get smart and  
> put a big DC power supply in the house and wire all the lights with  
> 12V DC.  Then the "bulbs" will last a very long time

http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/the-workbench/4423875/DC-distribution-in-your-house-and-42V-cars

But, as Jim said, for highest efficiency every bulb will still need a
DC/DC converter in it.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

There are lots of 12VDC PSs out there, look on the bay of fleas. Or just 
build one with a transformer and few other bits.  Or an old PC PS will 
have 12V output.


You might want to look at some LED strips, you can cut them to whatever 
length you want.  I ran a long strip above my kitchen cabinets to do 
some ceiling wash, they are pretty bright but maybe not task bright.  
They run off a 5V 10A wall wart.  Check Adafruit, they had some pretty 
bright ones.


I also bought a whole bunch of LEDs on little boards I want to make 
undercabinet lighting with, I haven't done that yet.  They are very 
bright and run off 5V too.  I put in some switched outlets under the 
cabs and used the ones with USB sockets so I can pull the 5V 5A (might 
be 10A, I forget) right off them, that will light up a bunch.  Got them 
from Adafruit, can put an Arduino to them to PWM and adjust brightness, 
I got that wire run too.  I need to get some plastic to mount them to 
and wire them up.


--FT


On 9/24/16 1:56 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:
So IF you buy a LED product that says it wants 12VDC, then we have to 
assume it has a built in power supply that is cheap and effective 
enough to get out of warranty, but not efficient or reliable nor 
effective for the long term, unless we get lucky?


So where do we buy a good LED PS that is efficient, effective and 
reliable?


I am about to embark on converting two 1950s vintage 15 W (18") 
fluorescent fixtures into LEDS.  I have ordered 2 20" LED strip 
lights, but no PS.  I could not find a PS from that vendor.   I have 
cleaned and painted the fixtures white.  Now waiting for the fixtures 
to arrive.  Unfortunately, they are too long.  After they arrive I 
will try to figure out if there is a way to cut them down to fit.



Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 12:14 PM


LED's don't want 12VDC any more than they want 120VAC. They want 2-4VDC
(depends on the color, etc.), _current limited_. This conversion has 
to be

efficient, effective, and reliable. And, cheap. Pick any two!

-- Jim
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Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 7:55 AM
The early chinese ones were quite iffy.  Now that the major 
manufacturers are making them, In expect the quality to improve.


That said, one of the nasty "corn cob" ones I bought a few years ago 
is still working -- strobes a bit once in a while, but still good 
after about 5 years.  It's twin only lasted about six months.


All the failures I've see so far appear to be power supply failures 
(each bulb has a DC converter in it).  Someday we will get smart and 
put a big DC power supply in the house and wire all the lights with 
12V DC.  Then the "bulbs" will last a very long time


Peter

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Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 4:19 AM
My experience is highly variable with the longevity of the $20 LED bulbs
also. Some last a month or two,rather than the claimed 10,000 hours or
other fanciful number. Complete scam.

Color temperature is also highly variable and makes a big difference 
in how

comfortable the light is.

They are getting better, but I always keep the box they come in and tape
the receipt to the side now so I can return them when they fail.

On Sep 23, 2016 8:42 PM, "Rich Thomas via Mercedes" 


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Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
September 23, 2016 at 10:41 PM
Speaking of Costco LEDs, yesterday they has the shop lights marked 
$29.99 which is $5 higher than they were like 3 weeks ago. They also 
had 2 packs of 4ft LED tubes for $17.99, first time I had seen those. 
They had some pretty good deals on bubs. They has 100W eq bubs, first 
time I had seen those, but they were a bit spendy.


--R (sent from my miniPad)

On Sep 23, 2016, at 8:22 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
 wrote:


Or to stay with the low tech incandescent bulb... (bub)

Only some outside light fixtures or floor lamps have the bub base down.

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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

Tesla was going to do that with their batteries to be a big home UPS, 
not sure about the PV aspect, and sold a few I think but they were very 
expensive.  Then they got out of that bidness.  MB decided to give that 
a go too, not sure where that stands.


--FT


On 9/24/16 12:59 PM, Mountain Man via Mercedes wrote:

Curley wrote:

My grandparents house was first wired for low voltage DC.

Nice!
That could work today?  Tesla could make low voltage batteries for
homes, have Tesla supply PV.  Say bye to central power generation
corporations and transmission losses?  Only for use in non-flood
areas.  Which town are you near?  It took me a while to search online
to see NE IA is where floods were this week.
mao

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--
--FT


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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

So IF you buy a LED product that says it wants 12VDC, then we have to 
assume it has a built in power supply that is cheap and effective enough 
to get out of warranty, but not efficient or reliable nor effective for 
the long term, unless we get lucky?


So where do we buy a good LED PS that is efficient, effective and reliable?

I am about to embark on converting two 1950s vintage 15 W (18") 
fluorescent fixtures into LEDS.  I have ordered 2 20" LED strip lights, 
but no PS.  I could not find a PS from that vendor.   I have cleaned and 
painted the fixtures white.  Now waiting for the fixtures to arrive.  
Unfortunately, they are too long.  After they arrive I will try to 
figure out if there is a way to cut them down to fit.



Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 12:14 PM


LED's don't want 12VDC any more than they want 120VAC. They want 2-4VDC
(depends on the color, etc.), _current limited_. This conversion has to be
efficient, effective, and reliable. And, cheap. Pick any two!

-- Jim
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Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 7:55 AM
The early chinese ones were quite iffy.  Now that the major 
manufacturers are making them, In expect the quality to improve.


That said, one of the nasty "corn cob" ones I bought a few years ago 
is still working -- strobes a bit once in a while, but still good 
after about 5 years.  It's twin only lasted about six months.


All the failures I've see so far appear to be power supply failures 
(each bulb has a DC converter in it).  Someday we will get smart and 
put a big DC power supply in the house and wire all the lights with 
12V DC.  Then the "bulbs" will last a very long time


Peter

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Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 4:19 AM
My experience is highly variable with the longevity of the $20 LED bulbs
also. Some last a month or two,rather than the claimed 10,000 hours or
other fanciful number. Complete scam.

Color temperature is also highly variable and makes a big difference 
in how

comfortable the light is.

They are getting better, but I always keep the box they come in and tape
the receipt to the side now so I can return them when they fail.

On Sep 23, 2016 8:42 PM, "Rich Thomas via Mercedes" 


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Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
September 23, 2016 at 10:41 PM
Speaking of Costco LEDs, yesterday they has the shop lights marked 
$29.99 which is $5 higher than they were like 3 weeks ago. They also 
had 2 packs of 4ft LED tubes for $17.99, first time I had seen those. 
They had some pretty good deals on bubs. They has 100W eq bubs, first 
time I had seen those, but they were a bit spendy.


--R (sent from my miniPad)

On Sep 23, 2016, at 8:22 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
 wrote:


Or to stay with the low tech incandescent bulb... (bub)

Only some outside light fixtures or floor lamps have the bub base down.

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Curley McLain 
September 23, 2016 at 7:22 PM
Or to stay with the low tech incandescent bulb... (bub)

Only some outside light fixtures or floor lamps have the bub base down.



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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

>
> All the failures I've see so far appear to be power supply failures (each
> bulb has a DC converter in it).  Someday we will get smart and put a big DC
> power supply in the house and wire all the lights with 12V DC.  Then the
> "bulbs" will last a very long time


LED's don't want 12VDC any more than they want 120VAC.  They want 2-4VDC
(depends on the color, etc.), _current limited_.  This conversion has to be
efficient, effective, and reliable.  And, cheap.  Pick any two!

-- Jim
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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Of course it would work today.

Lots of people in HI live off grid because there is no grid to connect 
to.  All of upper Oceanview is off grid.   Much of Puna and Kau and 
other districts are off grid.   They live with cistern catch water, 
water trucks in drought, PV, generators and propane.  But the climate is 
mild, if you get high enough up, the mosquiteos don't go there. You can 
grow various crops suited to the microclimate.


12 V is still used in boats and campers.  If you look hard enough, you 
can find a Delco light plant.


Flooding is in NCentral IA, now.  NE flooding was last weeks news.


Mountain Man via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 11:59 AM

Nice!
That could work today? Tesla could make low voltage batteries for
homes, have Tesla supply PV. Say bye to central power generation
corporations and transmission losses? Only for use in non-flood
areas. Which town are you near? It took me a while to search online
to see NE IA is where floods were this week.
mao

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Curley McLain 
September 24, 2016 at 8:15 AM
Back to the future.  My grandparents house was first wired for low 
voltage DC.   Delco light plant, long before an electric utility was 
available.


Our boat was wired for 12v.  We added 120V wiring 50 years ago so 
there was a choice.  12V under way, 120V dockside.



Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 7:55 AM
The early chinese ones were quite iffy.  Now that the major 
manufacturers are making them, In expect the quality to improve.


That said, one of the nasty "corn cob" ones I bought a few years ago 
is still working -- strobes a bit once in a while, but still good 
after about 5 years.  It's twin only lasted about six months.


All the failures I've see so far appear to be power supply failures 
(each bulb has a DC converter in it).  Someday we will get smart and 
put a big DC power supply in the house and wire all the lights with 
12V DC.  Then the "bulbs" will last a very long time


Peter

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Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 4:19 AM
My experience is highly variable with the longevity of the $20 LED bulbs
also. Some last a month or two,rather than the claimed 10,000 hours or
other fanciful number. Complete scam.

Color temperature is also highly variable and makes a big difference 
in how

comfortable the light is.

They are getting better, but I always keep the box they come in and tape
the receipt to the side now so I can return them when they fail.

On Sep 23, 2016 8:42 PM, "Rich Thomas via Mercedes" 


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Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
September 23, 2016 at 10:41 PM
Speaking of Costco LEDs, yesterday they has the shop lights marked 
$29.99 which is $5 higher than they were like 3 weeks ago. They also 
had 2 packs of 4ft LED tubes for $17.99, first time I had seen those. 
They had some pretty good deals on bubs. They has 100W eq bubs, first 
time I had seen those, but they were a bit spendy.


--R (sent from my miniPad)

On Sep 23, 2016, at 8:22 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
 wrote:


Or to stay with the low tech incandescent bulb... (bub)

Only some outside light fixtures or floor lamps have the bub base down.

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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

Curley wrote:
> My grandparents house was first wired for low voltage DC.

Nice!
That could work today?  Tesla could make low voltage batteries for
homes, have Tesla supply PV.  Say bye to central power generation
corporations and transmission losses?  Only for use in non-flood
areas.  Which town are you near?  It took me a while to search online
to see NE IA is where floods were this week.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I used to do this with the six packs of the curlicue CFLs that claimed six year 
life. I became the bane of GE and wallyworld.

Dan

> On Sep 24, 2016, at 5:19 AM, Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> They are getting better, but I always keep the box they come in and tape
> the receipt to the side now so I can return them when they fail.
> 


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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

I actually find the base up problem to not be as big a problem as its normally 
made out to be. I have one in the garage thats been there 3-4 years, still 
works as good as it ever did.
-Curt

  From: Curley McLain via Mercedes 
 To: Mercedes Discussion List  
Cc: Curley McLain <126die...@gmail.com>
 Sent: Friday, September 23, 2016 8:22 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?
   
Or to stay with the low tech incandescent bulb... (bub)

Only some outside light fixtures or floor lamps have the bub base down.
> archer75--- via Mercedes <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> September 23, 2016 at 7:12 PM
> Another reason to switch to LEDs since most CFLs are not used base down?
>
> "CFLs are designed to be used base down. When used on their side or 
> base up in an overhead fixture, they don't last as long." (From a 
> solar website)

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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Back to the future.  My grandparents house was first wired for low 
voltage DC.   Delco light plant, long before an electric utility was 
available.


Our boat was wired for 12v.  We added 120V wiring 50 years ago so there 
was a choice.  12V under way, 120V dockside.



Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
September 24, 2016 at 7:55 AM
The early chinese ones were quite iffy.  Now that the major 
manufacturers are making them, In expect the quality to improve.


That said, one of the nasty "corn cob" ones I bought a few years ago 
is still working -- strobes a bit once in a while, but still good 
after about 5 years.  It's twin only lasted about six months.


All the failures I've see so far appear to be power supply failures 
(each bulb has a DC converter in it).  Someday we will get smart and 
put a big DC power supply in the house and wire all the lights with 
12V DC.  Then the "bulbs" will last a very long time


Peter


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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

The early chinese ones were quite iffy.  Now that the major  
manufacturers are making them, In expect the quality to improve.


That said, one of the nasty "corn cob" ones I bought a few years ago  
is still working -- strobes a bit once in a while, but still good  
after about 5 years.  It's twin only lasted about six months.


All the failures I've see so far appear to be power supply failures  
(each bulb has a DC converter in it).  Someday we will get smart and  
put a big DC power supply in the house and wire all the lights with  
12V DC.  Then the "bulbs" will last a very long time


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

My experience is highly variable with the longevity of the $20 LED bulbs
also. Some last a month or two,rather than the claimed 10,000 hours or
other fanciful number. Complete scam.

Color temperature is also highly variable and makes a big difference in how
comfortable the light is.

They are getting better, but I always keep the box they come in and tape
the receipt to the side now so I can return them when they fail.

On Sep 23, 2016 8:42 PM, "Rich Thomas via Mercedes" 
wrote:

> Speaking of Costco LEDs, yesterday they has the shop lights marked $29.99
> which is $5 higher than they were  like 3 weeks ago. They also had 2 packs
> of 4ft LED tubes for $17.99, first time I had seen those. They had some
> pretty good deals on bubs.  They has 100W eq bubs, first time I had seen
> those, but they were a bit spendy.
>
> --R (sent from my miniPad)
>
> On Sep 23, 2016, at 8:22 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> Or to stay with the low tech incandescent bulb... (bub)
>
> Only some outside light fixtures or floor lamps have the bub base down.
> > archer75--- via Mercedes 
> > September 23, 2016 at 7:12 PM
> > Another reason to switch to LEDs since most CFLs are not used base down?
> >
> > "CFLs are designed to be used base down. When used on their side or base
> up in an overhead fixture, they don't last as long." (From a solar website)
>
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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Rich Thomas via Mercedes]

Speaking of Costco LEDs, yesterday they has the shop lights marked $29.99 which 
is $5 higher than they were  like 3 weeks ago. They also had 2 packs of 4ft LED 
tubes for $17.99, first time I had seen those. They had some pretty good deals 
on bubs.  They has 100W eq bubs, first time I had seen those, but they were a 
bit spendy. 

--R (sent from my miniPad)

On Sep 23, 2016, at 8:22 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes  
wrote:

Or to stay with the low tech incandescent bulb... (bub)

Only some outside light fixtures or floor lamps have the bub base down.
> archer75--- via Mercedes 
> September 23, 2016 at 7:12 PM
> Another reason to switch to LEDs since most CFLs are not used base down?
> 
> "CFLs are designed to be used base down. When used on their side or base up 
> in an overhead fixture, they don't last as long." (From a solar website)

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Re: [MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Or to stay with the low tech incandescent bulb... (bub)

Only some outside light fixtures or floor lamps have the bub base down.

archer75--- via Mercedes 
September 23, 2016 at 7:12 PM
Another reason to switch to LEDs since most CFLs are not used base down?

"CFLs are designed to be used base down. When used on their side or 
base up in an overhead fixture, they don't last as long." (From a 
solar website)


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[MBZ] Why Switch to LEDs?

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

Another reason to switch to LEDs since most CFLs are not used base down?

"CFLs are designed to be used base down. When used on their side or base up in 
an overhead fixture, they don't last as long." (From a solar website)

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