[MBZ] Anyone know of a good seat repair site?

2005-12-26 Thread Harry Watkins
I have the drivers seat out of an SDL and have bogged down. My problem was that a new fuse would allow it to operate for a week or so, then blow another fuse. It was during the fore and aft movement. I keep taking more and more screws, nuts and bolts off, trying to get to a point where I

Re: [MBZ] Anyone know of a good seat repair site?

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
Well you are going to have to remove the seat completely. First move seat all the way back and remove front 2 bolts, then move all the way forward for the back 2. Then you can get to the motors etc and see if one of the wires is damaged or something. Harry Watkins wrote: I have the

[MBZ] Admin, transition complete

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
OK, everything has been updated and everyone resubscribed. Everyone is now set to non-digest by default. If you need digest version, simply log into the list page with the password that was emailed to you with your new welcome message. If you are still confused let me know. It is very easy

Re: [MBZ] Anyone know of a good seat repair site?

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
I usually just get it sort of stuck in the car door a little just so the cord will reach to move it back and forth. OR, you can just stick the proper drill bit in the special port on the motor just for the purpose of manually moving it back at forth. As for the pins, the older style with no

Re: [MBZ] Admin, transition complete

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
Yea, and the list was only out of commission for about 10 minutes Loren Faeth wrote: Congrats! You have pulled off a maintenancesimilar to those which always seemed to cause a major meltdown for ol Richarde At 09:17 PM 12/25/2005, you wrote: OK, everything has been updated and everyone

Re: [MBZ] Admin, transition complete

2005-12-26 Thread Marshall Booth
Seems like a VERY smooth transition to me. Congratulations Marshall -- Marshall Booth Ph.D. Ass't Prof. (ret.) Univ of Pittsburgh School of Medicine Department of Pharmacology 1300 BST Pittsburgh PA 15261 USA [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[MBZ] Mooseday Aftermath

2005-12-26 Thread L . Mark Finch
http://tinyurl.com/9s5g3 From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Dec 26 14:18:55 2005 Received: from xproxy.gmail.com ([66.249.82.204]) by server5.arterytc5.net with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1EqtBe-0005sX-JI for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mon, 26 Dec 2005 14:18:55 + Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with

Re: [MBZ] Frappr Map

2005-12-26 Thread Marshall Booth
I suggest adding Wolfgang's page of Mercedes oil recomendations: http://www.whnet.com/4x4/oil.html It's not absolutely complete, but he updates it pretty regularly as things change. Marshall -- Marshall Booth Ph.D. Ass't Prof. (ret.) Univ of Pittsburgh School of Medicine Department of

[MBZ] seat heater repair

2005-12-26 Thread Lee Levitt
My '93 has one good seat heater (the passenger side of course) and one bad. Symptoms are that the lights on the switch will flash very briefly when the switch is pressed, and then remain off. Switch and relays have been checked and are considered good (by my mechanic). So it sounds like the

Re: [MBZ] seat heater repair

2005-12-26 Thread Hans Neureiter
I would find the electrical connection to the seat and measure the resistance. This will give a clue if the heating element is bad. The enxt thing could be a bad wire/connection. Again, measure the resistance of the wire loop. On 12/26/05, Lee Levitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My '93 has one

Re: [MBZ] a car for AZ bob?

2005-12-26 Thread Christopher McCann
Never been to Phoenix...no grass in those pictures...do you literally live IN the desert? Chris Bob Rentfro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I saw that...it's like 5 minutes from my house.I may go give it a gander. Bob Rentfro '77 300D 146K Litchfield Park, AZ - Original Message -

Re: [MBZ] a car for AZ bob?

2005-12-26 Thread Hans Neureiter
Ja. This baby has been in the dessert heat all its life. Look at the wrinkle finish on the door panels and window frame coverings. On 12/26/05, Christopher McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Never been to Phoenix...no grass in those pictures...do you literally live IN the desert? Chris Bob

[MBZ] Anyone know of a good seat repair site?

2005-12-26 Thread Harry Watkins
I have the drivers seat out of an SDL and have bogged down. My problem was that a new fuse would allow it to operate for a week or so, then blow another fuse. It was during the fore and aft movement. I keep taking more and more screws, nuts and bolts off, trying to get to a point where I can

Re: [MBZ] Admin, transition complete

2005-12-26 Thread Robert M Doran
I tried to go to the site below to change back to the digest version but am unable to find the correct procedure there to do this. Is it possible to do it manually or some other way? My email just gets too overloaded unless I use the digest version. Also, from your list of MBz you own, can you

Re: [MBZ] Frappr Map

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
Thanks. Will save these for when I start on that section of the site. Hans Neureiter wrote: Kaleb, would it not be nice to have a link to the map on the Striplin.netsite. I bet Chuck will approve after a bit of arm twisting. Below are some links to helpful sites I saved. You may want to

Re: [MBZ] seat heater repair

2005-12-26 Thread Jim Cathey
So it sounds like the problem is probably in the seat itself. First, is this a reasonable conclusion? Yes, given the harsh environment the seat heater lives in. Second, what could be wrong (bad heating element in the seat?), and what's the process of repairing? Remove seat, remove

Re: [MBZ] Admin, transition complete

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
We has some corrupt files that would sometimes cause the list to stop sending out email till it was restarted. Had to delete everything and start over to see if that fixed it. The archive from up to that point are offline right now but should be back up in about 10 days or so. Marshall

Re: [MBZ] seat heater repair

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
Check your charging system, that is what they do when the charging system is not charging like its supposed to. They do that to tell you something is wrong. My 560 was doing that then a few days later I figured out the alternator was not charging. Lee Levitt wrote: My '93 has one good seat

Re: [MBZ] Anyone know of a good seat repair site?

2005-12-26 Thread Jim Cathey
I keep taking more and more screws, nuts and bolts off, trying to get to a point where I can see how things work and be able to inspect for wear or damage. I hope someone has a procedure, or steps to follow. What you said _is_ my procedure for such things! Persevere. -- Jim

Re: [MBZ] Frappr Map

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
goo idea Marshall Booth wrote: I suggest adding Wolfgang's page of Mercedes oil recomendations: http://www.whnet.com/4x4/oil.html It's not absolutely complete, but he updates it pretty regularly as things change. Marshall -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE,

Re: [MBZ] Anyone know of a good seat repair site?

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
Well too bad you didnt see this then: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=8024585038rd=1sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AITrd=1 My SDL was blowing fuses everytime you tried to move the backrest. Last weekend after much complaining from the wife about the broken seat springs

Re: [MBZ] Admin, transition complete

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
Click on the link at the bottom of each message or with the new subscription message you got. Log in with the password that was supplied in that message. If you use the link at the bottom of this message the last box at the bottom asks for your email address. Enter email, then click the

[MBZ] Car 'year'

2005-12-26 Thread Jim Cathey
Also, from your list of MBz you own, can you give me some evidences to differentiate a '75 vs a '76 240D. I have one titled as a '76, although for some reasons, I believe it to be a '75. Thanks. Frankenheap is in the same boat. The State thinks it is a '71, but I have good reason to believe

Re: [MBZ] seat heater repair

2005-12-26 Thread Jim Cathey
Check your charging system, that is what they do when the charging system is not charging like its supposed to. I thought the lights flashed continuously when battery voltage was low. (I've never seen this, but I thought that's what I read in the TFM about seat and rear window heaters.) --

Re: [MBZ] Anyone know of a good seat repair site?

2005-12-26 Thread Harry Watkins
Kaleb wrote: OR, you can just stick the proper drill bit in the special port on the motor just for the purpose of manually moving it back at forth. Tell me more, in my case right now, this would solve my problem. I need to be able to move the driven gear rail about two inches in order to get a

Re: [MBZ] seat heater repair

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
the ones on my car flashed then turned off. Jim Cathey wrote: Check your charging system, that is what they do when the charging system is not charging like its supposed to. I thought the lights flashed continuously when battery voltage was low. (I've never seen this, but I thought that's

Re: [MBZ] Anyone know of a good seat repair site?

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
On the opposite side of the motors from where the cable comes out is a port that will accept a square bit. You can use that to turn the motors manually. Harry Watkins wrote: Kaleb wrote: OR, you can just stick the proper drill bit in the special port on the motor just for the purpose of

Re: [MBZ] seat heater repair

2005-12-26 Thread Lee Levitt
Thanks Jim, In the 124 the relays are under the rear seat. With regard to the seat heating elements -- are they separate from the seat covers? How difficult is it to remove the seat cover? Thanks! Lee On Mon Dec 26 07:50:24 PST 2005, Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So it sounds like

Re: [MBZ] Admin, transition complete

2005-12-26 Thread Hans Neureiter
That's the reason I use Gmail exclusively for the lists mail load. 2 gigs of storage and free. I manage it by deleting stuff I think I never need and keep the rest stached in Labels, same as folders. I send you an invitation you can use if you like. -- Hans Neureiter, Houston, TX '82 300SD,

Re: [MBZ] Car 'year'

2005-12-26 Thread Robert M Doran
That makes sense to me, but when I asked about this soon after I had purchased the car several years ago I was told that the dealer who had sold it (and who was no longer in business here at that time) had used the system of selling the car titled according to the date of sale rather than

Re: [MBZ] a car for AZ bob?

2005-12-26 Thread Bob Rentfro
- Original Message - From: Christopher McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 7:59 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] a car for AZ bob? Never been to Phoenix...no grass in those pictures...do you literally live IN the desert?

Re: [MBZ] Car 'year'

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
All 115 240D (1976 was the last year) had the pull start glow knob and the top mounted oil filter. In 1977 with the 123 240D they went to the key start. Robert M Doran wrote: That makes sense to me, but when I asked about this soon after I had purchased the car several years ago I was told

Re: [MBZ] a car for AZ bob?

2005-12-26 Thread Bob Rentfro
Yes we do...some of us do have small patches of grass. Most have the desert landscape (rocks/gravel/granite) Lots of cactus (it's still odd, even after 25 years, hanging Christmas lights on a cactus), scrubby trees, rivers with no water, etc. Bob Rentfro ;77 300D 146K Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: [MBZ] 93 S-Class diesel (new engine?)

2005-12-26 Thread Dave M.
Yes. The last revision of the OM603 head, casting #22, has a modified oil passage. The previous castings were mostly open to the head gasket, and sometimes the gasket would blow out into the timing chain cavity and #1 cylinder. The new casting moves the passage internal to the head with a hole at

[MBZ] Strange Lack of What Little Power There Was

2005-12-26 Thread Bob Rentfro
Oldest girl-child called me the other day and told me she didn't think she could get all of her stuff in the Beetle to get it home, so I put the roof rack on and drove over to Long Beach. I loaded the car (back seat full, trunk full, TV on front seat and three big suitcases up on the rack) and,

Re: [MBZ] Frappr Map

2005-12-26 Thread OK Don
I'd like to encourage our non-US located members and friends to participate in the Frappr! map as well. It's fun to see where everyone is, even though we won't likely be stopping by for help on a trip. -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC The FSM created the

Re: [MBZ] Car 'year'

2005-12-26 Thread Jim Cathey
the system of selling the car titled according to the date of sale rather than otherwise, regardless of how long it had been in his inventory. This seems strange to me that he could have legally done this but In one way this even makes the most sense given the primary purpose of the

Re: [MBZ] Anyone know of a good seat repair site?

2005-12-26 Thread OK Don
Kaleb - we need a couple of seat end and chassis wiring harness end connectors with some wire still attached to make a few extension cord sets for working on these seats. We can mail them around as needed. If you'll pull the connectors/wires, I'll solder them up into extension cords. -- OK Don,

Re: [MBZ] Admin, transition complete

2005-12-26 Thread OK Don
That's what I do also - I find the Gmail easier to read than the digest. All the messages with a common subject line are grouped together in one thread. On 12/26/05, Hans Neureiter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's the reason I use Gmail exclusively for the lists mail load. 2 gigs of storage and

Re: [MBZ] Car 'year'

2005-12-26 Thread OK Don
OK. My '76 300D 617 had the bottom mounted oil filter and a key operated glow/starting system. My '70 220D 615 had the pull start system. On 12/26/05, Kaleb C. Striplin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All 115 240D (1976 was the last year) had the pull start glow knob and the top mounted oil filter.

Re: [MBZ] Car 'year'

2005-12-26 Thread Marshall Booth
All of the 617s had key operated glow/start. Th 616s didn't have key start until the 123 models. Marshall -- Marshall Booth Ph.D. Ass't Prof. (ret.) Univ of Pittsburgh School of Medicine Department of Pharmacology 1300 BST Pittsburgh PA 15261 USA [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [MBZ] Anyone know of a good seat repair site?

2005-12-26 Thread Harry Watkins
That worked, I now have the screw lined up to come out and got called to lunch (I never miss lunch). To make a tool I hammered the end of a welding rod (1109) square, finished with a file and used a drill motor to move the rail. The square (without measuring) seems to be about the size of a

Re: [MBZ] Anyone know of a good seat repair site?

2005-12-26 Thread Hans Neureiter
I just pull the drive cable out of the motor and chuck it in my drill motor. The lock plates are only at the gearbox side. On 12/26/05, OK Don [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kaleb - we need a couple of seat end and chassis wiring harness end connectors with some wire still attached to make a few

Re: [MBZ] Anyone know of a good seat repair site?

2005-12-26 Thread l02turner
Hi Harry, This guy has published a series of repair booklets for Mercedes. I bought one for the W123 seats but much of the info relates to several models. The books are very complete with photos of each step. http://www.mercedessource.com/ HTH's -- Sincerely, Larry T (78 240D w/286K) A

Re: [MBZ] Strange Lack of What Little Power There Was

2005-12-26 Thread l02turner
Hi Bob, What year is the Beetle? Along with the fuel filters look for vacuum leaks - or, if it's a gas engined VW, make sure the timing hasn't changed - Sincerely, Larry T (78 240D) A Blood Test for your oil - www.youroil.net For Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil Weber Carb Stuff

Re: [MBZ] Frappr Map

2005-12-26 Thread Christopher McCann
lol. looking at the map, Deadhorse is further north than 99% of Norway, Sweden, etc. I think the Pacific currents keep it from getting colder than it would otherwise. I think the same latitude in Russia is MUCH colder. Chris Hans Neureiter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Never know. Someone

Re: [MBZ] Anyone know of a good seat repair site?

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
OK, next car I part out will do. OK Don wrote: Kaleb - we need a couple of seat end and chassis wiring harness end connectors with some wire still attached to make a few extension cord sets for working on these seats. We can mail them around as needed. If you'll pull the connectors/wires, I'll

Re: [MBZ] Car 'year'

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
the 300D did have the key start, 75 and 76 OK Don wrote: OK. My '76 300D 617 had the bottom mounted oil filter and a key operated glow/starting system. My '70 220D 615 had the pull start system. On 12/26/05, Kaleb C. Striplin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All 115 240D (1976 was the last year)

Re: [MBZ] Anyone know of a good seat repair site?

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
yea, should be the same as the speedo drive I think. Harry Watkins wrote: That worked, I now have the screw lined up to come out and got called to lunch (I never miss lunch). To make a tool I hammered the end of a welding rod (1109) square, finished with a file and used a drill motor to move

Re: [MBZ] Anyone know of a good seat repair site?

2005-12-26 Thread OK Don
I'm guessing we need a set each for the memory and non-memory seats - is that all? On 12/26/05, Kaleb C. Striplin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, next car I part out will do. OK Don wrote: Kaleb - we need a couple of seat end and chassis wiring harness end connectors with some wire still

Re: [MBZ] update on the 5.0 euro into the 380SE project

2005-12-26 Thread OK Don
Great! Rather nice weather we're having here -- 73F (23C) and sunny. Unusual for late December in OK land. On 12/26/05, Kaleb C. Striplin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Got the exhaust hung back up today, installed the fan and filled the cooling system. Fired it up and after a few minutes the smoke

Re: [MBZ] update on the 5.0 euro into the 380SE project

2005-12-26 Thread kevin kraly
Woohoo! That's gonna be one quick car although it won't be quite as quick as a hotrodded 603 or 606 diesel. Is this one going to be the weekend machine after driving diesels all week? Kevin in Hillsboro Oregon no MB diesel as of yet

Re: [MBZ] Admin, transition complete

2005-12-26 Thread Dave M.
OK, after the upgrade, has anyone else on digest noticed a change in the digest format? The posts are no longer numbered. See below for an example. I don't miss the lack of 'message ID' or 'content type', but I'd sure like to get the 'message number' back! I only pick out topics from the digest

Re: [MBZ] update on the 5.0 euro into the 380SE project

2005-12-26 Thread LT Don
You going to change the nameplate on the back? On 12/26/05, Kaleb C. Striplin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Got the exhaust hung back up today, installed the fan and filled the cooling system. Fired it up and after a few minutes the smoke went away and it starting running nice. Just need to

Re: [MBZ] Strange Lack of What Little Power There Was

2005-12-26 Thread Bob Rentfro
Larry wondered: What year is the Beetle? The Beetle is a 2001 TDI...it is running well. Got 46 mpg on the way back. My troubles are with my MB...I get to go to work tonight. I'll see how it does. I will change fuel filters tomorrow. Bob Rentfro '77 300D 146K Litchfield Park, AZ

[MBZ] 350sdl tandem pump +a/c clutch

2005-12-26 Thread Constantine N. Polites
For those of you who wish to add to your collection of photographs, I have two illustrating the air compressor with clutch removed and the new clutch with parts. Just make an additional note, there are two spacer washers that go into the very back of the clutch piece. They are very easy to

Re: [MBZ] 1987 300DT

2005-12-26 Thread OK Don
Yes - it's a 124 chassis car. The chassis number is WDB1241331A285947. The engine should be 60396012001977 and the tranny 72231702817510. The color code is 355, and the interior is 272. The order number is 0670452241 (I don't know what if anything you can do with this). This is the only year of

Re: [MBZ] 1987 300DT

2005-12-26 Thread Zeitgeist
Truly awful cars, steer clear...only fools buy them. On 12/26/05, Tom Scordato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: WDBEB33D9HA285947 Above is the Vin. Can anyone tell me about these cars? Got to start planning for when there will be much, much fewer 123 chassis diesel in the next 10 to 15 years.

Re: [MBZ] An automotive first (for me)

2005-12-26 Thread David Brodbeck
Jim Cathey wrote: I had the hinge pin in my Falcon's pedal rust up, then the pedal broke off the floor. (More rust.) It's still riding around in the trunk, we just step on the rod. Have for years, not that the car gets driven much. Put a little roller on the end of the rod, like the early

Re: [MBZ] Admin, transition complete

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
Im not sure why it does or does not do that. I do know before some of the lists numbered them and some didnt. Im not sure if its anything I can control but I will do some digging. Dave M. wrote: OK, after the upgrade, has anyone else on digest noticed a change in the digest format? The

Re: [MBZ] update on the 5.0 euro into the 380SE project

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
yea, it was great. Wish I could have got a car stripped down while I was at it. OK Don wrote: Great! Rather nice weather we're having here -- 73F (23C) and sunny. Unusual for late December in OK land. On 12/26/05, Kaleb C. Striplin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Got the exhaust hung back up

Re: [MBZ] update on the 5.0 euro into the 380SE project

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
It will be for the wife to drive. kevin kraly wrote: Woohoo! That's gonna be one quick car although it won't be quite as quick as a hotrodded 603 or 606 diesel. Is this one going to be the weekend machine after driving diesels all week? Kevin in Hillsboro Oregon no MB diesel as of yet

Re: [MBZ] update on the 5.0 euro into the 380SE project

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
I doubt it. Will be the fastest 380 on the planet. LT Don wrote: You going to change the nameplate on the back? On 12/26/05, Kaleb C. Striplin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Got the exhaust hung back up today, installed the fan and filled the cooling system. Fired it up and after a few minutes

Re: [MBZ] O/T Merry Christmas

2005-12-26 Thread David Brodbeck
Peter Arnold wrote: If you insist on being P/C, Buzz off here! To the rest of us, A Very Merry CHRISTmas to all, Our family is so hapy to live in a land that we can say that! The irony about the war on Christmas rhetoric is that insisting that people who celebrate the holidays celebrate

[MBZ] I own the Starship Enterprise

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
Well I took the 380SE with the euro 5.0 out for a spin today. Its like going to warp speed. It has WAY more get up and go than a 560 does. WOW. It was up to 80 before I knew what happened. Next is changing the fluids then daily driver status. -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 89 560SEL,

Re: [MBZ] I own the Starship Enterprise

2005-12-26 Thread Sunil Hari
congratulations Kleb - btw, what's wrong with the factory engine in a 380SE? On 12/26/05, Kaleb C. Striplin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well I took the 380SE with the euro 5.0 out for a spin today. Its like going to warp speed. It has WAY more get up and go than a 560 does. WOW. It was up to

Re: [MBZ] Admin, transition complete

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
Actually, the digest I just got had the message numbers like you were talking about. Dave M. wrote: OK, after the upgrade, has anyone else on digest noticed a change in the digest format? The posts are no longer numbered. See below for an example. I don't miss the lack of 'message ID' or

Re: [MBZ] I own the Starship Enterprise

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
Well lets see, factory engine, 155hp, euro 5.0 engine, 240hp. Will get about the same mileage as the 380 engine. The later 3.8 is not really that bad, just underpowered. Sunil Hari wrote: congratulations Kleb - btw, what's wrong with the factory engine in a 380SE? On 12/26/05, Kaleb C.

[MBZ] Title screw-ups (was: Re: Car 'year')

2005-12-26 Thread David Brodbeck
Jim Cathey wrote: Frankenheap is in the same boat. The State thinks it is a '71, but I have good reason to believe that '72 is more appropriate, given that I found lots of '72 date codes on electrical items in it. I don't think that I'd want to try to convince the State that they had the

Re: [MBZ] I own the Starship Enterprise

2005-12-26 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
oh yea, another factor that causes this car to be a rocketship off the line is its geared for the underpowered 3.8 motor(the rear end) but has the 5.0 euro in it. So its even faster off the line than a regular euro 5.0 Kaleb C. Striplin wrote: Well lets see, factory engine, 155hp, euro 5.0

Re: [MBZ] Anyone know of a good seat repair site?

2005-12-26 Thread OK Don
The extension wire will run from the harness where the seat would have plugged in to the harness, with the other end plugging into the seat connector. You should be able to just use the postion switches to move it as needed, and not invoke the memory function. The reason to make different