Re: [MBZ] 123 Brakes, and clutch fluid

2011-10-26 Thread Fmiser
 Dieselhead wrote:

 How do I bleed the clutch from underneath without a pressure
 bleeder? I seem to remember the book uses a hose form the
 master, but that would take a piece of brake line to hook to
 the master, and I don't have that.

I recall reading somewhere a vibration method.  Put it all
together, start the engine in gear, drive around for a bit and
the clutch will bleed itself.

If you have the correct clutch rod.  Which should be your case
since you didn't make any changes to the clutch master cylinder.

For reference, your missing hose is part number 003-997-12-52.
My notes have it listed as about $10.  Also, the original is a
piece of bulk hose.  This new one is a form-fitted, corrigated
hose just for this purpose.

--  Philip

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Re: [MBZ] 123 Brakes, and clutch fluid

2011-10-26 Thread Curt Raymond
I just took a piece of hose from the right front brake bleeder to the clutch 
bleeder, open both bleeders, step on the brakes, add fluid, step on the brakes 
again, close both bleeders, remove hose, job done.

Super easy.

-Curt

Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 03:14:45 -0500
From: Fmiser fmi...@gmail.com
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 123 Brakes, and clutch fluid
Message-ID: 20111026031445.b34137e4.fmi...@gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

 Dieselhead wrote:

 How do I bleed the clutch from underneath without a pressure
 bleeder? I seem to remember the book uses a hose form the
 master, but that would take a piece of brake line to hook to
 the master, and I don't have that.

I recall reading somewhere a vibration method.  Put it all
together, start the engine in gear, drive around for a bit and
the clutch will bleed itself.

If you have the correct clutch rod.  Which should be your case
since you didn't make any changes to the clutch master cylinder.

For reference, your missing hose is part number 003-997-12-52.
My notes have it listed as about $10.  Also, the original is a
piece of bulk hose.  This new one is a form-fitted, corrigated
hose just for this purpose.

--  Philip

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Re: [MBZ] 123 Brakes, and clutch fluid

2011-10-26 Thread Dieselhead
That would have worked, but I didn't have a piece of hose that long. 
After I left NAPA, I did think think I should have bought enough host 
to reach from the rear wheel to the driver's seat as a just in case 
but I didn't buy it.


I just took a piece of hose from the right front brake bleeder to 
the clutch bleeder, open both bleeders, step on the brakes, add 
fluid, step on the brakes again, close both bleeders, remove hose, 
job done.


Super easy.

-Curt

Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 03:14:45 -0500
From: Fmiser fmi...@gmail.com
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 123 Brakes, and clutch fluid
Message-ID: 20111026031445.b34137e4.fmi...@gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


 Dieselhead wrote:



 How do I bleed the clutch from underneath without a pressure
 bleeder? I seem to remember the book uses a hose form the
 master, but that would take a piece of brake line to hook to
 the master, and I don't have that.


I recall reading somewhere a vibration method.  Put it all
together, start the engine in gear, drive around for a bit and
the clutch will bleed itself.

If you have the correct clutch rod.  Which should be your case
since you didn't make any changes to the clutch master cylinder.

For reference, your missing hose is part number 003-997-12-52.
My notes have it listed as about $10.  Also, the original is a
piece of bulk hose.  This new one is a form-fitted, corrigated
hose just for this purpose.

--  Philip

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Re: [MBZ] 123 Brakes, and clutch fluid

2011-10-26 Thread Jim Cathey

How do I bleed the clutch from underneath without a pressure bleeder?


Use the car's built-in pressure bleeder, the one the manual
itself tells you to use:  A length of hose from the clutch
nipple to the nearest brake nipple and pump the brakes.
Works great.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 123 Brakes, and clutch fluid

2011-10-26 Thread Mountain Man
Grant wrote:
 A.. the good old days
 when Made in America actually ment Quality.

We can't make it here anymore.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTW0y6kazW

mao

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Re: [MBZ] 123 Brakes, and clutch fluid

2011-10-26 Thread Mountain Man
Grant wrote: A.. the good old days when Made in America
actually ment Quality.
We can't make it here anymore.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTW0y6kazWM

Try that...
mao

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Re: [MBZ] 123 Brakes, and clutch fluid

2011-10-25 Thread G Mann
Over the years I've used, and owned, I believe every brake bleed tool
invented. However, they all are a PITA, don't work as advertised, or cost
way to much.

I've since discovered a method and a simple tool that has worked every time,
on a huge variety of vehicles and lets me bleed brakes or clutches by
myself.

It is a simple old fashioned pump oil can. You can still buy them at NAPA,
and other auto parts stores. I prefer the ones made completely of metal that
hold a good volume of fluid.

The method works like this:
Drain and flush the system as you did.
Leave the master cylinder empty, with the cap lightly setting in place [very
important].
Close all bleed screws except the one farthest from Master Cylinder.
Fill the can of the pump oil can with brake fluid [the right kind for the
system you are working with]
Attach a piece of clean hose to the squirt part of the oil pump can,
attach the other end to the bleed nipple [you may need to rig up some
adaptors to get the hose size correct to allow a slip fit on to the nipple],
I like to use enough hose that I can comfortably work setting outside the
car instead of under it, so a couple feet works for me.

With all connections clean and firm, start pumping clean brake fluid from
the wheel cylinder back up the system to the master cylinder. Check the
Master Cylinder often to observe it being filled with clean fluid.  When
approx. 1/4 full, close the wheel nipple and move to the next closest by
length. Attach the hose to nipple, open nipple, pump clean fluid again,
filling that wheel and line to pump more fluid into cylinder, repeat as
necessary to fill all wheel cylinders and lines, while watching that you do
not overfill the Master Cylinder OR run empty on the Pump Oil Can [if you
pump air you get to start over].
If the Pump Can gets low on fluid, just close the nipple, refill the Pump
Can, open the nipple are resume pumping.

Using this method, the Master Cylinder is always higher than the wheel [or
clutch] cylinders. Air is lighter than brake fluid and by the laws of
physics it wants to go up, not down, so is easily pushed out of the braking
or clutch system, first time, every time.

I like to leave a little space in the Master Cylinder and top it off from
the top side, unless I happen to have an assistant who watches for me [not
often].

Since using this system and spending less than $10 for a high quality hand
oil pump, I have been able to bleed any system by myself faster than I could
with someone pumping the peddle and I've always had a full peddle when
done with no air in the systems.

I've used this system on everything from motorcycles, to airplanes, to 5 ton
trucks with disk brakes, drum brake systems, and otherwise impossible to
bleed clutch systems, all with perfect success.

[I find it handy to use a plug in the end of the hose after I've finished
and removed it from the last nipple, just to keep the tool clean and ready
for next time... also keeps from dripping what's in the hose so work area
and tool crib remains clean]

Hope this helps,

Grant
AZ...

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 8:44 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote:

 How to change the hoses and fluid on a 123 with clutch (or without)

 When I was working on Heinrich, The 80 240D with the heart transplant that
 I am nursing back to health, I noticed the rear brake hose rubber jacket was
 coming off.

 I had front brake hoses that were a couple inches longer than the 123 hoses
 (126?) but looked like they would work.  I had ordered rear hoses from Q a
 couple weeks ago, Had DOT 5 silicon brake fluid on hand, so I was ready to
 do the change over.  Today was the day!

 Put it on jackstands, with the jack and a stack of tires as safety, took
 off the tires, opened the 4 wheel bleeders with a short piece of old
 windshield washer hose on each nipple, leading into an empty quart M1
 bottle.

 As the draining neared completion, I took loose the hoses (Sprayed the hard
 line fittings with Mopar penetrating derusto earlier).  I checked the hoses
 to me sure everything was kosher.  Then I blew out the calipers with air.
  took out the bleeders and applied neverseeze carefully to just the bottom
 4-5 threads to keep it out of the brake system. This helps to seal the
 bleeder threads when you hook on the mity vac.  And, it keeps you from
 breaking off the bleeder next time.

 I pulled the Master reservoir off and rinsed it out 3 times with new, clean
 fluid, then stuck it back on.  Opened the bleeder screw on the clutch slave,
 but it would not drain out.  Cut off an inch of the hose from the brake
 reservoir to the clutch, and put it back on.  It promptly split.

 Uh Oh!  I forgot to order that hose, and don't want the thing up on jack
 stands in front of my house for a week...

 Quick trip to NAPA , and ended up with a foot of ATF cooler hose. Hope it
 will work ok.  Tried to buy a pressure bleeder system there, but nothing in
 stock, not even a mity vac.

 My HF vac pump will not do pressure, 

Re: [MBZ] 123 Brakes, and clutch fluid

2011-10-25 Thread Dieselhead
Aha!  Now I remember reading that when you posted it before.  I knew 
there was a discussion, but I forgot the best part.  The oil can!  I 
probably even have one suitable.




Over the years I've used, and owned, I believe every brake bleed tool
invented. However, they all are a PITA, don't work as advertised, or cost
way to much.

I've since discovered a method and a simple tool that has worked every time,
on a huge variety of vehicles and lets me bleed brakes or clutches by
myself.

It is a simple old fashioned pump oil can. You can still buy them at NAPA,
and other auto parts stores. I prefer the ones made completely of metal that
hold a good volume of fluid.

The method works like this:
Drain and flush the system as you did.
Leave the master cylinder empty, with the cap lightly setting in place [very
important].
Close all bleed screws except the one farthest from Master Cylinder.
Fill the can of the pump oil can with brake fluid [the right kind for the
system you are working with]
Attach a piece of clean hose to the squirt part of the oil pump can,
attach the other end to the bleed nipple [you may need to rig up some
adaptors to get the hose size correct to allow a slip fit on to the nipple],
I like to use enough hose that I can comfortably work setting outside the
car instead of under it, so a couple feet works for me.

With all connections clean and firm, start pumping clean brake fluid from
the wheel cylinder back up the system to the master cylinder. Check the
Master Cylinder often to observe it being filled with clean fluid.  When
approx. 1/4 full, close the wheel nipple and move to the next closest by
length. Attach the hose to nipple, open nipple, pump clean fluid again,
filling that wheel and line to pump more fluid into cylinder, repeat as
necessary to fill all wheel cylinders and lines, while watching that you do
not overfill the Master Cylinder OR run empty on the Pump Oil Can [if you
pump air you get to start over].
If the Pump Can gets low on fluid, just close the nipple, refill the Pump
Can, open the nipple are resume pumping.

Using this method, the Master Cylinder is always higher than the wheel [or
clutch] cylinders. Air is lighter than brake fluid and by the laws of
physics it wants to go up, not down, so is easily pushed out of the braking
or clutch system, first time, every time.

I like to leave a little space in the Master Cylinder and top it off from
the top side, unless I happen to have an assistant who watches for me [not
often].

Since using this system and spending less than $10 for a high quality hand
oil pump, I have been able to bleed any system by myself faster than I could
with someone pumping the peddle and I've always had a full peddle when
done with no air in the systems.

I've used this system on everything from motorcycles, to airplanes, to 5 ton
trucks with disk brakes, drum brake systems, and otherwise impossible to
bleed clutch systems, all with perfect success.

[I find it handy to use a plug in the end of the hose after I've finished
and removed it from the last nipple, just to keep the tool clean and ready
for next time... also keeps from dripping what's in the hose so work area
and tool crib remains clean]

Hope this helps,

Grant
AZ...



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Re: [MBZ] 123 Brakes, and clutch fluid

2011-10-25 Thread G Mann
I strongly suggest that you use a clean as new one.  For the small price
of a new Pump Oil Can it's not worth contamination of your brake system. If
you have an old one that works well but has oil in it, solvent wash followed
by spray brake cleaner, followed by compressed air should put in to work for
you.

The old Pump Cans were built well. I've picked up some at yard sales that
are likely 100 yrs old and still pump just fine.  A.. the good old days
when Made in America actually ment Quality.

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote:

 Aha!  Now I remember reading that when you posted it before.  I knew there
 was a discussion, but I forgot the best part.  The oil can!  I probably even
 have one suitable.


  Over the years I've used, and owned, I believe every brake bleed tool
 invented. However, they all are a PITA, don't work as advertised, or cost
 way to much.

 I've since discovered a method and a simple tool that has worked every
 time,
 on a huge variety of vehicles and lets me bleed brakes or clutches by
 myself.

 It is a simple old fashioned pump oil can. You can still buy them at NAPA,
 and other auto parts stores. I prefer the ones made completely of metal
 that
 hold a good volume of fluid.

 The method works like this:
 Drain and flush the system as you did.
 Leave the master cylinder empty, with the cap lightly setting in place
 [very
 important].
 Close all bleed screws except the one farthest from Master Cylinder.
 Fill the can of the pump oil can with brake fluid [the right kind for the
 system you are working with]
 Attach a piece of clean hose to the squirt part of the oil pump can,
 attach the other end to the bleed nipple [you may need to rig up some
 adaptors to get the hose size correct to allow a slip fit on to the
 nipple],
 I like to use enough hose that I can comfortably work setting outside the
 car instead of under it, so a couple feet works for me.

 With all connections clean and firm, start pumping clean brake fluid from
 the wheel cylinder back up the system to the master cylinder. Check the
 Master Cylinder often to observe it being filled with clean fluid.  When
 approx. 1/4 full, close the wheel nipple and move to the next closest by
 length. Attach the hose to nipple, open nipple, pump clean fluid again,
 filling that wheel and line to pump more fluid into cylinder, repeat as
 necessary to fill all wheel cylinders and lines, while watching that you
 do
 not overfill the Master Cylinder OR run empty on the Pump Oil Can [if you
 pump air you get to start over].
 If the Pump Can gets low on fluid, just close the nipple, refill the Pump
 Can, open the nipple are resume pumping.

 Using this method, the Master Cylinder is always higher than the wheel [or
 clutch] cylinders. Air is lighter than brake fluid and by the laws of
 physics it wants to go up, not down, so is easily pushed out of the
 braking
 or clutch system, first time, every time.

 I like to leave a little space in the Master Cylinder and top it off from
 the top side, unless I happen to have an assistant who watches for me [not
 often].

 Since using this system and spending less than $10 for a high quality hand
 oil pump, I have been able to bleed any system by myself faster than I
 could
 with someone pumping the peddle and I've always had a full peddle when
 done with no air in the systems.

 I've used this system on everything from motorcycles, to airplanes, to 5
 ton
 trucks with disk brakes, drum brake systems, and otherwise impossible to
 bleed clutch systems, all with perfect success.

 [I find it handy to use a plug in the end of the hose after I've finished
 and removed it from the last nipple, just to keep the tool clean and ready
 for next time... also keeps from dripping what's in the hose so work
 area
 and tool crib remains clean]

 Hope this helps,

 Grant
 AZ...


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Re: [MBZ] 123 brakes

2006-01-29 Thread LT Don
A BIC lighter?

On 1/28/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Also...what works to get brake fluid off of everything ot leaked onto
 down
 there?.

 Plain old garden hose water, after you rebuild or replace the calipers.
 That's plural.

 RLE
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1983 VW Quantum turbo diesel 5-speed
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Re: [MBZ] 123 brakes

2006-01-28 Thread RELNGSON
Also...what works to get brake fluid off of everything ot leaked onto down 
there?.

Plain old garden hose water, after you rebuild or replace the calipers. 
That's plural.

RLE


Re: [MBZ] 123 Brakes

2005-08-28 Thread David Brodbeck
TimothyPilgrim wrote:
 I had the reverse problem one time. I pushed down on the brake and it
 went totally soft, almost to the floor. Scared the hell outta me
 because I was on the highway at the time doing 70 mph. I got off the
 highway onto slower streets, and the problem has never happened since.
 Just that one press was all it was.

It might have been pad kickback. Pad kickback happens when the rotor
shifts enough, usually under heavy cornering loads, to push the brake
pads back into the calipers.  When you step on the pedal, nothing
happens at first because you're pushing the pads back into position.  It
feels very similar to the first pump or two when you're seating new pads
after a brake job.

Some cars have particular problems with this.  I've never heard of it
happening on a Mercedes, but maybe if the wheel bearing play is excessive?



Re: [MBZ] 123 Brakes

2005-08-28 Thread TimothyPilgrim
Well, this happened while I was going straight down the highway at
speed. No cornering involved. I've also had times when my brakes would
be piss poor after the car sat for a while. There'd be a good shudder
under braking. I'd drive really carefully on backroads for a while
while applying pressure to even them out. They're fine now. Doesn't
mean that I don't need a brake job tho.

Tim
1982 300TD Moby

On 8/27/05, David Brodbeck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 TimothyPilgrim wrote:
  I had the reverse problem one time. I pushed down on the brake and it
  went totally soft, almost to the floor. Scared the hell outta me
  because I was on the highway at the time doing 70 mph. I got off the
  highway onto slower streets, and the problem has never happened since.
  Just that one press was all it was.
 
 It might have been pad kickback. Pad kickback happens when the rotor
 shifts enough, usually under heavy cornering loads, to push the brake
 pads back into the calipers.  When you step on the pedal, nothing
 happens at first because you're pushing the pads back into position.  It
 feels very similar to the first pump or two when you're seating new pads
 after a brake job.
 
 Some cars have particular problems with this.  I've never heard of it
 happening on a Mercedes, but maybe if the wheel bearing play is excessive?
 
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Re: [MBZ] 123 Brakes

2005-08-27 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin

Vacuum leaks.

Alan Duff wrote:

Just bought a 83 300D. The brake pedal is rock hard and only moves down a 
quarter inch or so and the car is slow to stop. The brakes don't seem to 
drag. Don't recall having this type of problem before. My thoughts are

1. Stuck piston in a brake caliper
2. Stuck master cylinder.
Any ideas?

Alan Duff
Knoxville, TN

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 85 300D,  83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 81 240D,
 76 450SEL, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 69 250
Okie Benz Auto parts-email for used parts



Re: [MBZ] 123 Brakes

2005-08-26 Thread Jan Guthrie
No vacuum assist to the brakes .???

Jan

Alan Duff wrote:

 Just bought a 83 300D. The brake pedal is rock hard and only moves down a
 quarter inch or so and the car is slow to stop. The brakes don't seem to
 drag. Don't recall having this type of problem before. My thoughts are
 1. Stuck piston in a brake caliper
 2. Stuck master cylinder.
 Any ideas?

 Alan Duff
 Knoxville, TN

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Re: [MBZ] 123 Brakes

2005-08-26 Thread John Ervine

Alan Duff wrote:
Just bought a 83 300D. The brake pedal is rock hard and only moves down a 
quarter inch or so and the car is slow to stop. The brakes don't seem to 
drag. Don't recall having this type of problem before. My thoughts are

1. Stuck piston in a brake caliper
2. Stuck master cylinder.
Any ideas?


How's the vacuum assist?

--
John L. Ervine
1981 240D 4-spd 267+kmi
1980 300TD 168+kmi
1980 300SD 277+kmi
1977 280S 4-spd 80+kmi



Re: [MBZ] 123 Brakes

2005-08-26 Thread Alan Duff
Duh, I've been driving a gasser too long. Have to use the kill lever to 
shut the engine off so I've got a vacuum problem with no vacuum to the 
brake booster. 

Alan Duff
Knoxville, TN




Re: [MBZ] 123 Brakes

2005-08-26 Thread Marshall Booth

Alan Duff wrote:
Just bought a 83 300D. The brake pedal is rock hard and only moves down a 
quarter inch or so and the car is slow to stop. The brakes don't seem to 
drag. Don't recall having this type of problem before. My thoughts are

1. Stuck piston in a brake caliper
2. Stuck master cylinder.
Any ideas?


The vacuum brake booster is NOT working. Usually the problem isn't the 
booster but the vacuum supply to the booster - often a leak, 
occasionally the vacuum pump.


First test. With engine off, and foot pressing on the brake pedal, start 
the engine. The pedal should drop about 1/2 and feel softer as vacuum 
builds over a few seconds. If it doesn't the the booster isn't working. 
If the engine stops when you turn off the key, there is at least SOME 
vacuum (as the shutoff valve is vacuum operated) and I'd start to 
investigate the line from the vacuum pump to the brake booster.


It gets more complicated from there depending on what you find.

Check this link: 
http://skinnerbox.steaky.org/Service/W123/Index/Groups/43BrakeBooster.htm


Marshall
--
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  der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
'87 300TD 181Kmi,'87 190D 2.5 199Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 227Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 
159Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 234kmi

  Diesel Technical Advisor MBCA, member GWSection
http://www.dhc.net/~pmhack/mercedes/mbooth1.htm




Re: [MBZ] 123 Brakes

2005-08-26 Thread LT Don
I have the same situation, except intermittant. Good boost first time on the 
brakes (i.e., in stop  go traffic) then suddenly hard pedal and less 
stopping power.

Shall follow that link's suggestions after work and see what I find.


On 8/26/05, Marshall Booth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Alan Duff wrote:
  Just bought a 83 300D. The brake pedal is rock hard and only moves down 
 a
  quarter inch or so and the car is slow to stop. The brakes don't seem to
  drag. Don't recall having this type of problem before. My thoughts are
  1. Stuck piston in a brake caliper
  2. Stuck master cylinder.
  Any ideas?
 
 The vacuum brake booster is NOT working. Usually the problem isn't the
 booster but the vacuum supply to the booster - often a leak,
 occasionally the vacuum pump.
 
 First test. With engine off, and foot pressing on the brake pedal, start
 the engine. The pedal should drop about 1/2 and feel softer as vacuum
 builds over a few seconds. If it doesn't the the booster isn't working.
 If the engine stops when you turn off the key, there is at least SOME
 vacuum (as the shutoff valve is vacuum operated) and I'd start to
 investigate the line from the vacuum pump to the brake booster.
 
 It gets more complicated from there depending on what you find.
 
 Check this link:
 http://skinnerbox.steaky.org/Service/W123/Index/Groups/43BrakeBooster.htm
 
 Marshall
 --
 Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions)
 der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 '87 300TD 181Kmi,'87 190D 2.5 199Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 227Kmi, '85 190D 2.0
 159Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 234kmi
 Diesel Technical Advisor MBCA, member GWSection
 http://www.dhc.net/~pmhack/mercedes/mbooth1.htm
 
 
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-- 
1977 240D
1972 Honda CB-500K motorcycle

If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane.