Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-23 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
I always try to take a copy of the CL ad with me. If there is a serious 
disconnect between it and the actual car, I ask the seller to read it to me and 
point out the attributes they describe in the ad.

In this case the seller said the car had been garaged all of its life.

The roof paint was badly faded and the clear coat was gone.  I asked him if he 
looked at this car would he believe it had been garaged all of its life.

That was when I got the, It's a $1000 car, what did you expect?

I told him what my expectations were that I expected people to be truthful, and 
that I thought that was fair and realistic.

But it was garaged all of its life!

I just turned and left at that point. There was no reason to continue.  He said 
nothing as I left, I'm sure because he knew I was right.

My search continues. New post on another car coming

Dan

Sent from my iPad

 On Jul 22, 2014, at 10:29 PM, WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com wrote:
 
 'Reminds me of the 124 that I drove to York, SC, to see 10 years ago before I 
 bought the showroom one I have.  Seller lied in ad and on phone about 
 condition, and I drove 260 miles one way (overnighted at daughter's home in 
 Charlotte).  'Found interior grossly stained and stenched with tobacco smoke 
 and IP leaking like a sieve, plus bunch of other stuff.  'Told me, New tires 
 all around.  Tires were well-worn and no 2 alike.  etc., etc.
 
 Wilton

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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-23 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes

Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

I always try to take a copy of the CL ad with me. If there is a serious 
disconnect between it and the actual car, I ask the seller to read it to me and 
point out the attributes they describe in the ad.


I once drove 50 miles one way to pick up an old Filter Queen.
Turns out the ad was for $35 when I found it, but when I called them the next 
morning they'd decided it was worth more and changed the price to $75. I only 
downloaded it the one time and had no idea that the ad had changed. They let me 
have it for $35, but it served as a reminder to discuss all the terms on the 
phone before leaving on a trip to complete the deal.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-22 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
Thanks, I'll look for that one.

Dan

Sent from my iPad

 On Jul 21, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 HF has a Cis kit also, it's the $100
 One
 
 Sent from my iPhone

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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-22 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
Thanks, Peter.

What about the O-ring on the fuel pressure regulator in the side of the fuel 
distributor?

My research shows that it can also be an issue, especially in cars where the 
fuel system has been crudded up.

Dan

Sent from my iPad

 On Jul 21, 2014, at 11:34 PM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 The leaking points are:
 
 fuel distributor to throttle body boot (buried on that car, you have to 
 remove the manifold I think, but you have to anyway, see point #2)
 
 seals between intake manifold halves (this is an issue for all the V8s of 
 that design type)
 
 Idle control valve hoses
 
 Injector seals
 
 Injector holder seals (bet you didn't even know they existed, eh?).  On the 
 M103 there is a plastic sleeve the injector fits into, and they have an 
 o-ring in a slot on the outside to seal with the manifold.  They go bad, and 
 replacing the injector seals doesn't fix the issue.
 
 Typically all these must be replaced together, so its better to pull the 
 manifold and do it all at once.  The throttle body to fuel distributor boot 
 bolts to the fuel distributor, so it all has to come out.
 
 Makes a big improvement in running and throttle response when you get it all 
 sealed up.
 
 Another point to check is a sticky fuel distributor air flap pivot or plunger 
 seal.  If the flap does not move very freely with light pressure and spring 
 back up to the idle stop by itself if depressed, you need to clean it and 
 maybe pull the plunger and clean that.  Once in a while the plunger seal gets 
 leaky or drags too much, in either case mixture control is erratic and you 
 get running problems.
 
 Peter
 
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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-22 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
No EHA on this car. It predates them. Just barely.

Dan

Sent from my iPad

 On Jul 21, 2014, at 7:09 PM, Dwight Giles dwight.gi...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Fellow MB 126 gasser guy says when they sit it's the fuel distributor with 
 EHA that goes bad. Was bad on my neighbor's 560SEL. Can test flow. Anyway 
 just another scientific wild a. guess to add to others.
 
 On Jul 21, 2014 5:37 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 wrote:
 Finally heard back from the owner.  Here's what he tells me:
 
 He got the car from the original owner.  It had been parked for a couple of 
 years after being run out of fuel.  Wouldn't start or run when he got it.
 
 He replaced the fuel pump and filter and put fresh fuel in the tank.  Fuel 
 pump builds up pressure and turns off.  Car will start and idle, but when 
 you attempt to drive (load) the engine, it dies.
 
 He thinks the fuel strainer may be clogged up, but isn't interested in 
 putting any more time into it.  He says the hose from the strainer to the 
 pump looks a little rough, and he's wondering if there might be some air 
 leaks there.  He got the car from the original owner either for free or very 
 little from what I can tell, so it has just been a project to tinker with.  
 He doesn't know MBs and seems obsessed about the original owner paying more 
 than $60,000 for it new in 1984!!
 
 This does not seem to be an effort to pump up the price, just some sort of 
 awe that a car would have cost that much in the day.
 
 I was going to run over to Harbor Freight and pick up a fuel pressure 
 tester, but theirs says it doesn't work on Bosch or CIS-Jetronic. Is this 
 the case?  http://www.harborfreight.com/fuel-injection-pump-tester-92699.html
 
 It definitely sounds like a fuel delivery issue, as he says as they have 
 tinkered with it there have been times when it could be driven at 20-30 MPH 
 without a problem, then after being parked for a day it wouldn't do more 
 than idle, that is, when loaded it would stumble and miss.  I'm still going 
 to take a jumper for the fuel pump relay, but I don't think that's the issue.
 
 Interior is said to be very good, with the stitching on the top of the back 
 seat coming loose (nothing new there) and the exterior having a nickel-sized 
 spot of rust bubble in front of the passenger side rear wheel well.
 
 Let's hear those ideas, guys!  I nee some direction so I'll know what to 
 look for when I get up there tomorrow night!
 
 Thanks!
 
 Dan
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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-22 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes

OK Don via Mercedes wrote:

When I started having trouble with the '78 450SLC running right, I bought a
CIS testing kit from JC Whittney, I don't remember that it was very
expensive at the time. It had the proper fittings to connect to the steel
lines. You have to connect in a couple of places to test the system
properly, not just output pressure from the pump. The instructions that
came with the gauge set were adequate for testing the system. IIRC, I also
bought a book on the CIS system that was very handy.



Peter can correct me if I'm wrong (working from 25 year old memory here), but 
IIRC you hook the gauge, which includes a shutoff valve, to two places on the 
distributor, one near the inlet and pressure regulator and the other on top. 
With the valve open, it reads control pressure, with the valve shut, it reads 
the regulated fuel pressure. It's rather simple to pull the shims, spring, and 
ball to clean the regulator.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-22 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
Is there a ball in the regulator? If memory serves me correctly, I know there 
is a plunger with an O-ring and some shims.

I just want to be prepared in the event that decide to pop it out to have a 
look

Thanks,

Dan

Sent from my iPad

 On Jul 22, 2014, at 8:10 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 wrote:

 Peter can correct me if I'm wrong (working from 25 year old memory here), but 
 IIRC you hook the gauge, which includes a shutoff valve, to two places on the 
 distributor, one near the inlet and pressure regulator and the other on top. 
 With the valve open, it reads control pressure, with the valve shut, it reads 
 the regulated fuel pressure. It's rather simple to pull the shims, spring, 
 and ball to clean the regulator.
 
 Mitch.
 
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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-22 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes
I think they call it the master kit. It does Cis although I have not used it on 
Cis yet.

Sent from my iPhone

 On Jul 22, 2014, at 6:00 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 wrote:
 
 Thanks, I'll look for that one.
 
 Dan
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Jul 21, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 HF has a Cis kit also, it's the $100
 One
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-22 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
Found it. Currently on sale for $89.00.

Thanks!

Dan

Sent from my iPad

 On Jul 22, 2014, at 8:33 AM, Kaleb C. Striplin ka...@striplin.net wrote:
 
 I think they call it the master kit. It does Cis although I have not used it 
 on Cis yet.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Jul 22, 2014, at 6:00 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 wrote:
 
 Thanks, I'll look for that one.
 
 Dan
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Jul 21, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 HF has a Cis kit also, it's the $100
 One
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-22 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes
Find a 20% off coupon online to save more

Sent from my iPhone

 On Jul 22, 2014, at 7:55 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 wrote:
 
 Found it. Currently on sale for $89.00.
 
 Thanks!
 
 Dan
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Jul 22, 2014, at 8:33 AM, Kaleb C. Striplin ka...@striplin.net wrote:
 
 I think they call it the master kit. It does Cis although I have not used it 
 on Cis yet.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Jul 22, 2014, at 6:00 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 Thanks, I'll look for that one.
 
 Dan
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Jul 21, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 HF has a Cis kit also, it's the $100
 One
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-22 Thread Rick Knoble via Mercedes
‎http://www.dealsoff.com/images/harbor-freight-coupons-0913.png

Rick 
Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
  Original Message  
From: Dan Penoff via Mercedes
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 7:55 AM
To: Mercedes List
Reply To: Dan Penoff
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

Found it. Currently on sale for $89.00.

Thanks!

Dan

Sent from my iPad

 On Jul 22, 2014, at 8:33 AM, Kaleb C. Striplin ka...@striplin.net wrote:
 
 I think they call it the master kit. It does Cis although I have not used it 
 on Cis yet.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Jul 22, 2014, at 6:00 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 wrote:
 
 Thanks, I'll look for that one.
 
 Dan
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Jul 21, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 HF has a Cis kit also, it's the $100
 One
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-22 Thread Jaime Kopchinski via Mercedes
I always connected a CIS gauge in line with the warm up regulator.  See the
work instruction here:
http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/outside/11883/PROGRAM/Engine/107/M116_38/07.3-120.pdf

In checking the car for possible purchase, I'd check movement of the air
flow regulating plate on the fuel distributor.  It should move smoothly
when pressed down and return back to its idle position by itself.  Ideally,
do this with the fuel pump jumpered.  You can hear the injectors scream
when the plate is pushed down.  (But don't do this too much or you risk
flooding the engine).  Since the car has sat for a while, I'd guess there
are fuel distributor issues.  Fuel pressure and vacuum leaks are also a
good to investigate.  Most likely with the age of the car and lack of care
its received, theres probably more than one thing wrong.

The Delorian guy in Texas is a great source for rebuilt fuel distributors,
btw.  Hes just a bit quirky to deal with
http://www.specialtauto.com/mercedes-parts/index.html

Good luck!

Jaime





On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 Is there a ball in the regulator? If memory serves me correctly, I know
 there is a plunger with an O-ring and some shims.

 I just want to be prepared in the event that decide to pop it out to have
 a look

 Thanks,

 Dan

 Sent from my iPad

  On Jul 22, 2014, at 8:10 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

  Peter can correct me if I'm wrong (working from 25 year old memory
 here), but IIRC you hook the gauge, which includes a shutoff valve, to two
 places on the distributor, one near the inlet and pressure regulator and
 the other on top. With the valve open, it reads control pressure, with the
 valve shut, it reads the regulated fuel pressure. It's rather simple to
 pull the shims, spring, and ball to clean the regulator.
 
  Mitch.
 
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 has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.

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-- 
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http://www.jaimekop.com/
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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-22 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
Just got done looking at it.

Beater.

Damn CL sellers.
D

 On Jul 22, 2014, at 5:02 PM, Jaime Kopchinski jaime...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 I always connected a CIS gauge in line with the warm up regulator.  See the 
 work instruction here:
 http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/outside/11883/PROGRAM/Engine/107/M116_38/07.3-120.pdf
 
 In checking the car for possible purchase, I'd check movement of the air flow 
 regulating plate on the fuel distributor.  It should move smoothly when 
 pressed down and return back to its idle position by itself.  Ideally, do 
 this with the fuel pump jumpered.  You can hear the injectors scream when the 
 plate is pushed down.  (But don't do this too much or you risk flooding the 
 engine).  Since the car has sat for a while, I'd guess there are fuel 
 distributor issues.  Fuel pressure and vacuum leaks are also a good to 
 investigate.  Most likely with the age of the car and lack of care its 
 received, theres probably more than one thing wrong.  
 
 The Delorian guy in Texas is a great source for rebuilt fuel distributors, 
 btw.  Hes just a bit quirky to deal with
 http://www.specialtauto.com/mercedes-parts/index.html
 
 Good luck!
 
 Jaime
 
 
 
 
 
 On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 Is there a ball in the regulator? If memory serves me correctly, I know 
 there is a plunger with an O-ring and some shims.
 
 I just want to be prepared in the event that decide to pop it out to have a 
 look
 
 Thanks,
 
 Dan
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
  On Jul 22, 2014, at 8:10 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
  mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
  Peter can correct me if I'm wrong (working from 25 year old memory here), 
  but IIRC you hook the gauge, which includes a shutoff valve, to two places 
  on the distributor, one near the inlet and pressure regulator and the 
  other on top. With the valve open, it reads control pressure, with the 
  valve shut, it reads the regulated fuel pressure. It's rather simple to 
  pull the shims, spring, and ball to clean the regulator.
 
  Mitch.
 
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 no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
 
 
 
 -- 
 Jaime Kopchinski
 http://www.jaimekop.com/
 
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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-22 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
Just got home.

Long story short, this car was not as described. The paint was thrashed, for 
one. There is no doubt in my mind that the fuel system was clogged up. The 
engine would idle but not carry load. 

You could press your foot to the floor and it might go to 3000 rpm, but shortly 
after would die off with your foot still on the floor.

Interior wasn't bad. Trunk had a leak somewhere - I could smell the mold.

Gotta love CL sellers. I took the guy to task over the description and all he 
could say was, What do you expect for a $1200 car?  I told him I expected 
people to be truthful in their description.

That was pretty much it.  Other than a couple of hours of my time and maybe $20 
worth of fuel I'm out nothing.  You never know until you look, I guess...

Dan

Sent from my iPad

 On Jul 22, 2014, at 6:21 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 wrote:
 
 Just got done looking at it.
 
 Beater.
 
 Damn CL sellers.
 D
 
 On Jul 22, 2014, at 5:02 PM, Jaime Kopchinski jaime...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 I always connected a CIS gauge in line with the warm up regulator.  See the 
 work instruction here:
 http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/outside/11883/PROGRAM/Engine/107/M116_38/07.3-120.pdf
 
 In checking the car for possible purchase, I'd check movement of the air 
 flow regulating plate on the fuel distributor.  It should move smoothly when 
 pressed down and return back to its idle position by itself.  Ideally, do 
 this with the fuel pump jumpered.  You can hear the injectors scream when 
 the plate is pushed down.  (But don't do this too much or you risk flooding 
 the engine).  Since the car has sat for a while, I'd guess there are fuel 
 distributor issues.  Fuel pressure and vacuum leaks are also a good to 
 investigate.  Most likely with the age of the car and lack of care its 
 received, theres probably more than one thing wrong.  
 
 The Delorian guy in Texas is a great source for rebuilt fuel distributors, 
 btw.  Hes just a bit quirky to deal with
 http://www.specialtauto.com/mercedes-parts/index.html
 
 Good luck!
 
 Jaime
 
 
 
 
 
 On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 Is there a ball in the regulator? If memory serves me correctly, I know 
 there is a plunger with an O-ring and some shims.
 
 I just want to be prepared in the event that decide to pop it out to have a 
 look
 
 Thanks,
 
 Dan
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Jul 22, 2014, at 8:10 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 Peter can correct me if I'm wrong (working from 25 year old memory here), 
 but IIRC you hook the gauge, which includes a shutoff valve, to two places 
 on the distributor, one near the inlet and pressure regulator and the 
 other on top. With the valve open, it reads control pressure, with the 
 valve shut, it reads the regulated fuel pressure. It's rather simple to 
 pull the shims, spring, and ball to clean the regulator.
 
 Mitch.
 
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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-22 Thread WILTON via Mercedes
'Reminds me of the 124 that I drove to York, SC, to see 10 years ago before 
I bought the showroom one I have.  Seller lied in ad and on phone about 
condition, and I drove 260 miles one way (overnighted at daughter's home in 
Charlotte).  'Found interior grossly stained and stenched with tobacco smoke 
and IP leaking like a sieve, plus bunch of other stuff.  'Told me, New 
tires all around.  Tires were well-worn and no 2 alike.  etc., etc.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com

To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!



Just got home.

Long story short, this car was not as described. The paint was thrashed, 
for one. There is no doubt in my mind that the fuel system was clogged up. 
The engine would idle but not carry load.


You could press your foot to the floor and it might go to 3000 rpm, but 
shortly after would die off with your foot still on the floor.


Interior wasn't bad. Trunk had a leak somewhere - I could smell the mold.

Gotta love CL sellers. I took the guy to task over the description and all 
he could say was, What do you expect for a $1200 car?  I told him I 
expected people to be truthful in their description.


That was pretty much it.  Other than a couple of hours of my time and 
maybe $20 worth of fuel I'm out nothing.  You never know until you look, I 
guess...


Dan

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 22, 2014, at 6:21 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:


Just got done looking at it.

Beater.

Damn CL sellers.
D

On Jul 22, 2014, at 5:02 PM, Jaime Kopchinski jaime...@gmail.com 
wrote:


I always connected a CIS gauge in line with the warm up regulator.  See 
the work instruction here:

http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/outside/11883/PROGRAM/Engine/107/M116_38/07.3-120.pdf

In checking the car for possible purchase, I'd check movement of the air 
flow regulating plate on the fuel distributor.  It should move smoothly 
when pressed down and return back to its idle position by itself. 
Ideally, do this with the fuel pump jumpered.  You can hear the 
injectors scream when the plate is pushed down.  (But don't do this too 
much or you risk flooding the engine).  Since the car has sat for a 
while, I'd guess there are fuel distributor issues.  Fuel pressure and 
vacuum leaks are also a good to investigate.  Most likely with the age 
of the car and lack of care its received, theres probably more than one 
thing wrong.


The Delorian guy in Texas is a great source for rebuilt fuel 
distributors, btw.  Hes just a bit quirky to deal with

http://www.specialtauto.com/mercedes-parts/index.html

Good luck!

Jaime





On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
Is there a ball in the regulator? If memory serves me correctly, I know 
there is a plunger with an O-ring and some shims.


I just want to be prepared in the event that decide to pop it out to 
have a look


Thanks,

Dan

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 22, 2014, at 8:10 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:


Peter can correct me if I'm wrong (working from 25 year old memory 
here), but IIRC you hook the gauge, which includes a shutoff valve, to 
two places on the distributor, one near the inlet and pressure 
regulator and the other on top. With the valve open, it reads control 
pressure, with the valve shut, it reads the regulated fuel pressure. 
It's rather simple to pull the shims, spring, and ball to clean the 
regulator.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-21 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes
Maybe the hose is all buggered and is collapsing when fuel is pumped 
through it (here I am assuming the pump is sucking it from the tank) or 
has crap in it from sitting so long.  The filter aspect would also be a 
good place to start.  How hard would it be to get a mity-vac on a fuel 
line and see if you can pump some (sucking?) from the tank?  Take along 
some generic fuel line, run it from the tank vicinity to the fuel pump 
and see if you can bypass the line?  It most definitely sounds like a 
fuel starvation issue of some sort.  I had a lawnmower do that, ended up 
cleaning the whole fuel system and carb to get it to run right.


I wonder too if the tank has gotten rusty from sitting in a humid 
environment, using crap ethanol fuel, etc. and that has clogged the filter?


--R (no expert on Benz vergassers)




On 7/21/14 5:37 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

Finally heard back from the owner.  Here's what he tells me:

He got the car from the original owner.  It had been parked for a couple of 
years after being run out of fuel.  Wouldn't start or run when he got it.

He replaced the fuel pump and filter and put fresh fuel in the tank.  Fuel pump 
builds up pressure and turns off.  Car will start and idle, but when you 
attempt to drive (load) the engine, it dies.

He thinks the fuel strainer may be clogged up, but isn't interested in putting any more 
time into it.  He says the hose from the strainer to the pump looks a little rough, and 
he's wondering if there might be some air leaks there.  He got the car from the original 
owner either for free or very little from what I can tell, so it has just been a project 
to tinker with.  He doesn't know MBs and seems obsessed about the original owner paying 
more than $60,000 for it new in 1984!!

This does not seem to be an effort to pump up the price, just some sort of awe 
that a car would have cost that much in the day.

I was going to run over to Harbor Freight and pick up a fuel pressure tester, 
but theirs says it doesn't work on Bosch or CIS-Jetronic. Is this the case?  
http://www.harborfreight.com/fuel-injection-pump-tester-92699.html

It definitely sounds like a fuel delivery issue, as he says as they have 
tinkered with it there have been times when it could be driven at 20-30 MPH 
without a problem, then after being parked for a day it wouldn't do more than 
idle, that is, when loaded it would stumble and miss.  I'm still going to take 
a jumper for the fuel pump relay, but I don't think that's the issue.

Interior is said to be very good, with the stitching on the top of the back 
seat coming loose (nothing new there) and the exterior having a nickel-sized 
spot of rust bubble in front of the passenger side rear wheel well.

Let's hear those ideas, guys!  I nee some direction so I'll know what to look 
for when I get up there tomorrow night!

Thanks!

Dan
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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-21 Thread Randy Bennell via Mercedes

On 21/07/2014 5:02 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:
Maybe the hose is all buggered and is collapsing when fuel is pumped 
through it (here I am assuming the pump is sucking it from the tank) 
or has crap in it from sitting so long.  The filter aspect would also 
be a good place to start.  How hard would it be to get a mity-vac on a 
fuel line and see if you can pump some (sucking?) from the tank?  Take 
along some generic fuel line, run it from the tank vicinity to the 
fuel pump and see if you can bypass the line?  It most definitely 
sounds like a fuel starvation issue of some sort.  I had a lawnmower 
do that, ended up cleaning the whole fuel system and carb to get it to 
run right.


I wonder too if the tank has gotten rusty from sitting in a humid 
environment, using crap ethanol fuel, etc. and that has clogged the 
filter?


--R (no expert on Benz vergassers)



How cheap is this car?

If it does not run right, offer low and buy it and haul it away before 
working on it.
The willingness to sell it cheaply might dissolve if it appears that you 
know what is wrong with it.
Remember that the vendor is stuck on the idea that it is a very 
expensive car.


Sometimes one has to gamble a bit.

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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-21 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes
One other thought -- a jug of gas with a hose in it, pump some fuel from 
there?  Here again I am assuming the fuel pump sucks the gas and is 
somewhere near the engine.


Take your fire extinguisher.

-R


On 7/21/14 6:02 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:
Maybe the hose is all buggered and is collapsing when fuel is pumped 
through it (here I am assuming the pump is sucking it from the tank) 
or has crap in it from sitting so long.  The filter aspect would also 
be a good place to start.  How hard would it be to get a mity-vac on a 
fuel line and see if you can pump some (sucking?) from the tank?  Take 
along some generic fuel line, run it from the tank vicinity to the 
fuel pump and see if you can bypass the line?  It most definitely 
sounds like a fuel starvation issue of some sort.  I had a lawnmower 
do that, ended up cleaning the whole fuel system and carb to get it to 
run right.


I wonder too if the tank has gotten rusty from sitting in a humid 
environment, using crap ethanol fuel, etc. and that has clogged the 
filter?


--R (no expert on Benz vergassers)




On 7/21/14 5:37 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

Finally heard back from the owner.  Here's what he tells me:

He got the car from the original owner.  It had been parked for a 
couple of years after being run out of fuel.  Wouldn't start or run 
when he got it.


He replaced the fuel pump and filter and put fresh fuel in the tank.  
Fuel pump builds up pressure and turns off.  Car will start and idle, 
but when you attempt to drive (load) the engine, it dies.


He thinks the fuel strainer may be clogged up, but isn't interested 
in putting any more time into it.  He says the hose from the strainer 
to the pump looks a little rough, and he's wondering if there might 
be some air leaks there.  He got the car from the original owner 
either for free or very little from what I can tell, so it has just 
been a project to tinker with. He doesn't know MBs and seems obsessed 
about the original owner paying more than $60,000 for it new in 1984!!


This does not seem to be an effort to pump up the price, just some 
sort of awe that a car would have cost that much in the day.


I was going to run over to Harbor Freight and pick up a fuel pressure 
tester, but theirs says it doesn't work on Bosch or CIS-Jetronic. Is 
this the case? 
http://www.harborfreight.com/fuel-injection-pump-tester-92699.html


It definitely sounds like a fuel delivery issue, as he says as they 
have tinkered with it there have been times when it could be driven 
at 20-30 MPH without a problem, then after being parked for a day it 
wouldn't do more than idle, that is, when loaded it would stumble and 
miss.  I'm still going to take a jumper for the fuel pump relay, but 
I don't think that's the issue.


Interior is said to be very good, with the stitching on the top of 
the back seat coming loose (nothing new there) and the exterior 
having a nickel-sized spot of rust bubble in front of the passenger 
side rear wheel well.


Let's hear those ideas, guys!  I nee some direction so I'll know what 
to look for when I get up there tomorrow night!


Thanks!

Dan
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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-21 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
He's asking $1200, but he's already inferred that he would take less.  As I 
mentioned before, it's an older guy with time on his hands and he sounds like 
he got it from a neighbor who no longer drives for little or nothing.  He's 
been tinkering with it in his shop for a couple of months (he just got back 
from a month's vacation up north) so he's grown tired of it.

I figure if I can get it for $1000 I should be OK.

Oh, yeah - full service records from the original owner and only around 60k on 
the clock.  Hardly broke in.

It's an hour away from me, so I would need to find a way to get it home.  I 
have a buddy with a pickup truck I might be able to borrow and rent a tow dolly 
from UHaul

Dan


On Jul 21, 2014, at 6:06 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
wrote:
 How cheap is this car?
 
 If it does not run right, offer low and buy it and haul it away before 
 working on it.
 The willingness to sell it cheaply might dissolve if it appears that you know 
 what is wrong with it.
 Remember that the vendor is stuck on the idea that it is a very expensive car.
 
 Sometimes one has to gamble a bit.
 
 ___
 http://www.okiebenz.com
 
 To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
 
 To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
 http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
 
 All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those 
 individuals are responsible for the content of the post.  The list owner has 
 no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.


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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-21 Thread Dwight Giles via Mercedes
Fellow MB 126 gasser guy says when they sit it's the fuel distributor with
EHA that goes bad. Was bad on my neighbor's 560SEL. Can test flow. Anyway
just another scientific wild a. guess to add to others.
On Jul 21, 2014 5:37 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

 Finally heard back from the owner.  Here's what he tells me:

 He got the car from the original owner.  It had been parked for a couple
 of years after being run out of fuel.  Wouldn't start or run when he got it.

 He replaced the fuel pump and filter and put fresh fuel in the tank.  Fuel
 pump builds up pressure and turns off.  Car will start and idle, but when
 you attempt to drive (load) the engine, it dies.

 He thinks the fuel strainer may be clogged up, but isn't interested in
 putting any more time into it.  He says the hose from the strainer to the
 pump looks a little rough, and he's wondering if there might be some air
 leaks there.  He got the car from the original owner either for free or
 very little from what I can tell, so it has just been a project to tinker
 with.  He doesn't know MBs and seems obsessed about the original owner
 paying more than $60,000 for it new in 1984!!

 This does not seem to be an effort to pump up the price, just some sort of
 awe that a car would have cost that much in the day.

 I was going to run over to Harbor Freight and pick up a fuel pressure
 tester, but theirs says it doesn't work on Bosch or CIS-Jetronic. Is this
 the case?
 http://www.harborfreight.com/fuel-injection-pump-tester-92699.html

 It definitely sounds like a fuel delivery issue, as he says as they have
 tinkered with it there have been times when it could be driven at 20-30 MPH
 without a problem, then after being parked for a day it wouldn't do more
 than idle, that is, when loaded it would stumble and miss.  I'm still going
 to take a jumper for the fuel pump relay, but I don't think that's the
 issue.

 Interior is said to be very good, with the stitching on the top of the
 back seat coming loose (nothing new there) and the exterior having a
 nickel-sized spot of rust bubble in front of the passenger side rear wheel
 well.

 Let's hear those ideas, guys!  I nee some direction so I'll know what to
 look for when I get up there tomorrow night!

 Thanks!

 Dan
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 individuals are responsible for the content of the post.  The list owner
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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-21 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
Any simple tests I can perform to determine if this is the case?

On the BW W126 forum a number of people have said that when they sit the tank 
gets crudded up with particulates smaller than what the stock filter can catch, 
and that ends up int eh fuel distributor among other places, causing problems.  
Some of them who have experienced this have been successful using a 10 micron 
spin-on filter ahead of the pump(s).

Dan

On Jul 21, 2014, at 7:09 PM, Dwight Giles dwight.gi...@gmail.com wrote:

 Fellow MB 126 gasser guy says when they sit it's the fuel distributor with 
 EHA that goes bad. Was bad on my neighbor's 560SEL. Can test flow. Anyway 
 just another scientific wild a. guess to add to others.\
 

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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-21 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
Also, would this car have an overvoltage protection relay?

I know later model CIS models did, not sure about this vintage.

Dan


On Jul 21, 2014, at 8:00 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
wrote:

 Any simple tests I can perform to determine if this is the case?
 
 On the BW W126 forum a number of people have said that when they sit the tank 
 gets crudded up with particulates smaller than what the stock filter can 
 catch, and that ends up int eh fuel distributor among other places, causing 
 problems.  Some of them who have experienced this have been successful using 
 a 10 micron spin-on filter ahead of the pump(s).
 
 Dan
 


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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-21 Thread LarryT via Mercedes
Any rust?  -  as you know, that's your biggest enemy. Of course the 
price of old mb parts is no walk in the park either...


LarryT

On 7/21/2014 6:18 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

He's asking $1200, but he's already inferred that he would take less.  As I 
mentioned before, it's an older guy with time on his hands and he sounds like 
he got it from a neighbor who no longer drives for little or nothing.  He's 
been tinkering with it in his shop for a couple of months (he just got back 
from a month's vacation up north) so he's grown tired of it.

I figure if I can get it for $1000 I should be OK.

Oh, yeah - full service records from the original owner and only around 60k on 
the clock.  Hardly broke in.

It's an hour away from me, so I would need to find a way to get it home.  I 
have a buddy with a pickup truck I might be able to borrow and rent a tow dolly 
from UHaul

Dan


On Jul 21, 2014, at 6:06 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
wrote:

How cheap is this car?

If it does not run right, offer low and buy it and haul it away before working 
on it.
The willingness to sell it cheaply might dissolve if it appears that you know 
what is wrong with it.
Remember that the vendor is stuck on the idea that it is a very expensive car.

Sometimes one has to gamble a bit.

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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-21 Thread OK Don via Mercedes
When I started having trouble with the '78 450SLC running right, I bought a
CIS testing kit from JC Whittney, I don't remember that it was very
expensive at the time. It had the proper fittings to connect to the steel
lines. You have to connect in a couple of places to test the system
properly, not just output pressure from the pump. The instructions that
came with the gauge set were adequate for testing the system. IIRC, I also
bought a book on the CIS system that was very handy.

The fuel pump and filter is under the fuel tank at the rear of the car.
There are several hoses there, but if they are leaking, you'll see fuel . .
.

When the M117 engine in the 450SLC stopped running altogether, I
disassembled it to find out what was wrong, and found almost all of the
rubber bits in the intake system (there are a LOT of them) were hard,
brittle, and leaking, making proper mixture impossible to attain and hold.

The 500 engine in that car is the aluminum block version of the iron 450
engine, and I'm fairly certain that it's almost the same otherwise.


On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 4:37 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 Finally heard back from the owner.  Here's what he tells me:

 He got the car from the original owner.  It had been parked for a couple
 of years after being run out of fuel.  Wouldn't start or run when he got it.

 snip



 I was going to run over to Harbor Freight and pick up a fuel pressure
 tester, but theirs says it doesn't work on Bosch or CIS-Jetronic. Is this
 the case?
 http://www.harborfreight.com/fuel-injection-pump-tester-92699.html

 It definitely sounds like a fuel delivery issue, as he says as they have
 tinkered with it there have been times when it could be driven at 20-30 MPH
 without a problem, then after being parked for a day it wouldn't do more
 than idle, that is, when loaded it would stumble and miss.  I'm still going
 to take a jumper for the fuel pump relay, but I don't think that's the
 issue.

 Interior is said to be very good, with the stitching on the top of the
 back seat coming loose (nothing new there) and the exterior having a
 nickel-sized spot of rust bubble in front of the passenger side rear wheel
 well.

 Let's hear those ideas, guys!  I nee some direction so I'll know what to
 look for when I get up there tomorrow night!

 Thanks!

 Dan
 ___




-- 
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-21 Thread Peter Frederick via Mercedes

The leaking points are:

fuel distributor to throttle body boot (buried on that car, you have  
to remove the manifold I think, but you have to anyway, see point #2)


seals between intake manifold halves (this is an issue for all the V8s  
of that design type)


Idle control valve hoses

Injector seals

Injector holder seals (bet you didn't even know they existed, eh?).   
On the M103 there is a plastic sleeve the injector fits into, and they  
have an o-ring in a slot on the outside to seal with the manifold.   
They go bad, and replacing the injector seals doesn't fix the issue.


Typically all these must be replaced together, so its better to pull  
the manifold and do it all at once.  The throttle body to fuel  
distributor boot bolts to the fuel distributor, so it all has to come  
out.


Makes a big improvement in running and throttle response when you get  
it all sealed up.


Another point to check is a sticky fuel distributor air flap pivot or  
plunger seal.  If the flap does not move very freely with light  
pressure and spring back up to the idle stop by itself if depressed,  
you need to clean it and maybe pull the plunger and clean that.  Once  
in a while the plunger seal gets leaky or drags too much, in either  
case mixture control is erratic and you get running problems.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] 1984 500SEL - HELP!!

2014-07-21 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes
HF has a Cis kit also, it's the $100
One

Sent from my iPhone

 On Jul 21, 2014, at 10:15 PM, OK Don via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 wrote:
 
 When I started having trouble with the '78 450SLC running right, I bought a
 CIS testing kit from JC Whittney, I don't remember that it was very
 expensive at the time. It had the proper fittings to connect to the steel
 lines. You have to connect in a couple of places to test the system
 properly, not just output pressure from the pump. The instructions that
 came with the gauge set were adequate for testing the system. IIRC, I also
 bought a book on the CIS system that was very handy.
 
 The fuel pump and filter is under the fuel tank at the rear of the car.
 There are several hoses there, but if they are leaking, you'll see fuel . .
 .
 
 When the M117 engine in the 450SLC stopped running altogether, I
 disassembled it to find out what was wrong, and found almost all of the
 rubber bits in the intake system (there are a LOT of them) were hard,
 brittle, and leaking, making proper mixture impossible to attain and hold.
 
 The 500 engine in that car is the aluminum block version of the iron 450
 engine, and I'm fairly certain that it's almost the same otherwise.
 
 
 On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 4:37 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 Finally heard back from the owner.  Here's what he tells me:
 
 He got the car from the original owner.  It had been parked for a couple
 of years after being run out of fuel.  Wouldn't start or run when he got it.
 
 snip
 
 
 I was going to run over to Harbor Freight and pick up a fuel pressure
 tester, but theirs says it doesn't work on Bosch or CIS-Jetronic. Is this
 the case?
 http://www.harborfreight.com/fuel-injection-pump-tester-92699.html
 
 It definitely sounds like a fuel delivery issue, as he says as they have
 tinkered with it there have been times when it could be driven at 20-30 MPH
 without a problem, then after being parked for a day it wouldn't do more
 than idle, that is, when loaded it would stumble and miss.  I'm still going
 to take a jumper for the fuel pump relay, but I don't think that's the
 issue.
 
 Interior is said to be very good, with the stitching on the top of the
 back seat coming loose (nothing new there) and the exterior having a
 nickel-sized spot of rust bubble in front of the passenger side rear wheel
 well.
 
 Let's hear those ideas, guys!  I nee some direction so I'll know what to
 look for when I get up there tomorrow night!
 
 Thanks!
 
 Dan
 ___
 
 
 -- 
 OK Don
 
 NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!
 
 There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
 learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
 for themselves.
 
 WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
 2013 F150, 18 mpg
 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
 ___
 http://www.okiebenz.com
 
 To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
 
 To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
 http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
 
 All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those 
 individuals are responsible for the content of the post.  The list owner has 
 no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those 
individuals are responsible for the content of the post.  The list owner has no 
control over the content of the messages of each contributor.