### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```Thanks Craig!
--
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 08:15:31 -0400 Meade Dillon via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

The key point that I am trying to drive home is the limit on the amount
of solar power available.  This is a hard limit: ~1000 watts/square
meter is the peak under ideal conditions.  A more usable number is 200
watts during daytime, which takes into account average cloud cover and
reduced energy reaching ground when the sun is low in the sky.

By comparison, 1 gallon of diesel has the potential energy of 130,000
BTU's.  200 watts of solar power is the equivalent of about 3400 BTU's /
hour.  That ~40 order of magnatude difference is why we drive cars and
trucks with internal combustion engines and why we don't have solar cars
(or airplanes) that can do useful things.

1000 Watts = 3412 BTU/hr
200 Watts = 682.4 BTU/hr

130,000
--- = 190.5
682.4

So, it's roughly a factor of 190, not 40 orders of magnitude (= 10^40).

Craig

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```The key point that I am trying to drive home is the limit on the amount of
solar power available.  This is a hard limit: ~1000 watts/square meter is
the peak under ideal conditions.  A more usable number is 200 watts during
daytime, which takes into account average cloud cover and reduced energy
reaching ground when the sun is low in the sky.

By comparison, 1 gallon of diesel has the potential energy of 130,000
BTU's.  200 watts of solar power is the equivalent of about 3400 BTU's /
hour.  That ~40 order of magnatude difference is why we drive cars and
trucks with internal combustion engines and why we don't have solar cars
(or airplanes) that can do useful things.  Diesel has ~40 times more energy
density than solar power, comparing one gallon of diesel to one square
meter of solar energy.

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:11 AM, fmiser via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

As
pointed out, even 100% efficiency from the panels would not
be enough to sustain flight except at high noon in the
tropics on a sunny day.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

```10-4.  I was thinking the same thing.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 10:37 PM, OK Don via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

What most religious people do - ignore that parts that they don't want to
obey/believe.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 9:28 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

What's a good Catholic like Bush and Rubio - trapped by right wing
ideology- to do?  Squirm, I guess.

--
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```BIG oops! 5kw. Though the 5mw system would be very nice to have
if it was the same price. Then again I probably don't have the
room for it. I have only 42 acres.

Jim Cathey wrote:

investigating for an upcoming 5000kw system purchase.

5MW?  That's pretty big!

There's a lot to be said for a mobile fleet of accumulators.
If you use the accumulator to drive off, it's less likely that
the juice would have been needed where it was parked anyway.

Even if you don't go anywhere, your car is still working!

Wind and solar could charge, as available, with nukes (etc.) picking
up the slack.  The fleet handles the leveling chores, the fully
controllable plants handle the trends.

-- Jim

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

```I belong to a sect that only has 8 members, we worship 7 gods, and we are
the only true religion, death to all others...

Crazy enough?

Snark off...

On Mercedes content.. I just bought an 82 Diesel 300 Turbo CD needing total
restoration [see above for level of insanity required to take on such a
project] Arizona car, zero rust. zero body damage, paint and interior eaten
by AZ sun.

Looks like I now have to many Mercedes, but I've been looking for the
perfect CD for a long time. I plan a total strip to bare frame and
rebuild of all mechanical parts. It will never be a Gullwing, but Kaleb is
hiding the one from Havana from me.. ;))

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 7:29 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

10-4.  I was thinking the same thing.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 10:37 PM, OK Don via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

What most religious people do - ignore that parts that they don't want
to
obey/believe.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 9:28 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

What's a good Catholic like Bush and Rubio - trapped by right wing
ideology- to do?  Squirm, I guess.

--
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many
of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few
who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```

On June 18, 2015 at 8:21 PM archer75--- via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

The situation doesn't seem to be quite like you describe it, Grant:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power#Parabolic_trough

I remember an article in Popular Science in the 70s or 80s.
Some guy had made a parabolic solar heating reflector system with some kind of
two axis tracking, said to be simple and reliable.
The dish was something like 8-10' in diameter, and it made very hot water at the
focal point.

I used to think of doing something with mirrors to increase the efficiency of
solar panels, but now that they're down around \$1 a watt it doesn't seem like
such a good idea to spend extra money to make them hotter for a little extra
power. I bet if you used a couple of mirrors to double or triple the solar flux
you'd seriously lower the panel's life.

Mitch.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```I'm not a fan of concentrated solar power.  Too many bird deaths, and now
it appears they miscalculated the efficiencies as well.  Distributed solar
is the way to go.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 10:36 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

If you are only talking about return on investment, then that's generally
true in the U.S., but the success and durability of such plants in
producing electricity seems to be well proven.

Spain has been in dire straits economically, and it has elected a
conservative president. I suspect these are the reasons it isn't
underwriting such projects.

My understanding is that such plants usually yield an efficiency of around
30%. An investor who bought in based on 60% efficiency probably wasn't
doing his homework.

I think it's generally recognized that having multiple sources of domestic
energy is of value to any nation. The government financed TVA dams and
others certainly were when large amounts of additional electricity were
needed before and during WW-2.

Gerry

G Mann wrote:
Ohh? Really?

Show me the return on investment capital from product [energy] generated
and sold.

Lots of money spent.. very low return on investment.. so much so.. Spain
has put a stop on further underwriting of projects, last I heard.

If your point is, plants were built. Then yes.. they exist. The link
lists
them, nicely.

My point is, those plants are not making design capacity or efficency,
which was used to attract investors money.. a lot of it. It lacks
delivery
as advertised.. for what ever reason.

Show me instead, quarterly profit reports for each of those plants, and
capital investment return to the investors.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 5:21 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

The situation doesn't seem to be quite like you describe it, Grant:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power#Parabolic_trough

G Mann wrote:

The solar focused mirror failure rate is very high.

I know of two other large array projects which are equally poor at
producing energy, yet equally successful at taking investor money..

Private investment or Government subsidy are defined only by the
speed
with
which investor money is vaporized.

Practical application yields return on investment. Pie in the sky
claims
do
not... Billions are now lost, along with the time to build these
monsters
and ultimately to dismantle them.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

I AM WRONG -- it's not gummint money, to my astoundment!

--R

On 6/18/15 5:48 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:

There was an article

http://www.wsj.com/articles/high-tech-solar-projects-fail-to-deliver-1434138485
a coupla days ago about some huge project in Kollyfawnya, solar
thermal
set-up, that is only producing 40% of the design output due to
unforeseen
issues.

The \$2.2 billion Ivanpah solar power project in California’s
Mojave
Desert is supposed to be generating more than a million
megawatt-hours of
electricity each year. But 15 months after starting up, the plant
is
producing just 40% of that, according to data from the U.S. Energy
Department.

Seems like a \$2.2B 60% failure was not a very good investment.
Maybe
could have started off a bit smaller and only pissed away a bil or
two?
But it's only gummint money, so who's counting...

--R

On 6/18/15 5:14 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

MG via Mercedes wrote:

BIG oops! 5kw. Though the 5mw system would be very nice to have
if
it
was the same price. Then again I probably don't have the room
for
it. I
have only 42 acres.

Well, let's see. 5 square meters per kW, so about 25,000 square
meters
for 5 MW.
Around 4000 square meters per acre, looks like you could easily
fit
5MW
on ten acres. I wonder if you could get-r-done for \$15 million?

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```Ohh? Really?

Show me the return on investment capital from product [energy] generated
and sold.

Lots of money spent.. very low return on investment.. so much so.. Spain
has put a stop on further underwriting of projects, last I heard.

If your point is, plants were built. Then yes.. they exist. The link lists
them, nicely.

My point is, those plants are not making design capacity or efficency,
which was used to attract investors money.. a lot of it. It lacks delivery
as advertised.. for what ever reason.

Show me instead, quarterly profit reports for each of those plants, and
capital investment return to the investors.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 5:21 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

The situation doesn't seem to be quite like you describe it, Grant:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power#Parabolic_trough

G Mann wrote:

The solar focused mirror failure rate is very high.

I know of two other large array projects which are equally poor at
producing energy, yet equally successful at taking investor money..

Private investment or Government subsidy are defined only by the speed
with
which investor money is vaporized.

Practical application yields return on investment. Pie in the sky claims
do
not... Billions are now lost, along with the time to build these monsters
and ultimately to dismantle them.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

I AM WRONG -- it's not gummint money, to my astoundment!

--R

On 6/18/15 5:48 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:

There was an article

http://www.wsj.com/articles/high-tech-solar-projects-fail-to-deliver-1434138485
a coupla days ago about some huge project in Kollyfawnya, solar
thermal
set-up, that is only producing 40% of the design output due to
unforeseen
issues.

The \$2.2 billion Ivanpah solar power project in California’s Mojave
Desert is supposed to be generating more than a million
megawatt-hours of
electricity each year. But 15 months after starting up, the plant is
producing just 40% of that, according to data from the U.S. Energy
Department.

Seems like a \$2.2B 60% failure was not a very good investment. Maybe
could have started off a bit smaller and only pissed away a bil or
two?
But it's only gummint money, so who's counting...

--R

On 6/18/15 5:14 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

MG via Mercedes wrote:

BIG oops! 5kw. Though the 5mw system would be very nice to have if
it
was the same price. Then again I probably don't have the room for
it. I
have only 42 acres.

Well, let's see. 5 square meters per kW, so about 25,000 square
meters
for 5 MW.
Around 4000 square meters per acre, looks like you could easily fit
5MW
on ten acres. I wonder if you could get-r-done for \$15 million?

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5961 / Virus Database: 4365/10047 - Release Date:
06/18/15

--
arche...@embarqmail.com arche...@embarqmail.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```The situation doesn't seem to be quite like you describe it, Grant:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power#Parabolic_trough

G Mann wrote:

The solar focused mirror failure rate is very high.

I know of two other large array projects which are equally poor at
producing energy, yet equally successful at taking investor money..

Private investment or Government subsidy are defined only by the speed with
which investor money is vaporized.

Practical application yields return on investment. Pie in the sky claims do
not... Billions are now lost, along with the time to build these monsters
and ultimately to dismantle them.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

I AM WRONG -- it's not gummint money, to my astoundment!

--R

On 6/18/15 5:48 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:

There was an article
http://www.wsj.com/articles/high-tech-solar-projects-fail-to-deliver-1434138485
a coupla days ago about some huge project in Kollyfawnya, solar thermal
set-up, that is only producing 40% of the design output due to unforeseen
issues.

The \$2.2 billion Ivanpah solar power project in California’s Mojave
Desert is supposed to be generating more than a million megawatt-hours of
electricity each year. But 15 months after starting up, the plant is
producing just 40% of that, according to data from the U.S. Energy
Department.

Seems like a \$2.2B 60% failure was not a very good investment. Maybe
could have started off a bit smaller and only pissed away a bil or two?
But it's only gummint money, so who's counting...

--R

On 6/18/15 5:14 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

MG via Mercedes wrote:

BIG oops! 5kw. Though the 5mw system would be very nice to have if it
was the same price. Then again I probably don't have the room for it. I
have only 42 acres.

Well, let's see. 5 square meters per kW, so about 25,000 square meters
for 5 MW.
Around 4000 square meters per acre, looks like you could easily fit 5MW
on ten acres. I wonder if you could get-r-done for \$15 million?

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5961 / Virus Database: 4365/10047 - Release Date: 06/18/15

--
arche...@embarqmail.com arche...@embarqmail.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```If you are only talking about return on investment, then that's generally true
in the U.S., but the success and durability of such plants in producing
electricity seems to be well proven.

Spain has been in dire straits economically, and it has elected a conservative
president. I suspect these are the reasons it isn't underwriting such projects.

My understanding is that such plants usually yield an efficiency of around 30%.
An investor who bought in based on 60% efficiency probably wasn't doing his
homework.

I think it's generally recognized that having multiple sources of domestic
energy is of value to any nation. The government financed TVA dams and others
certainly were when large amounts of additional electricity were needed before
and during WW-2.

Gerry

G Mann wrote:
Ohh? Really?

Show me the return on investment capital from product [energy] generated
and sold.

Lots of money spent.. very low return on investment.. so much so.. Spain
has put a stop on further underwriting of projects, last I heard.

If your point is, plants were built. Then yes.. they exist. The link lists
them, nicely.

My point is, those plants are not making design capacity or efficency,
which was used to attract investors money.. a lot of it. It lacks delivery
as advertised.. for what ever reason.

Show me instead, quarterly profit reports for each of those plants, and
capital investment return to the investors.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 5:21 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

The situation doesn't seem to be quite like you describe it, Grant:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power#Parabolic_trough

G Mann wrote:

The solar focused mirror failure rate is very high.

I know of two other large array projects which are equally poor at
producing energy, yet equally successful at taking investor money..

Private investment or Government subsidy are defined only by the speed
with
which investor money is vaporized.

Practical application yields return on investment. Pie in the sky claims
do
not... Billions are now lost, along with the time to build these monsters
and ultimately to dismantle them.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

I AM WRONG -- it's not gummint money, to my astoundment!

--R

On 6/18/15 5:48 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:

There was an article

http://www.wsj.com/articles/high-tech-solar-projects-fail-to-deliver-1434138485
a coupla days ago about some huge project in Kollyfawnya, solar
thermal
set-up, that is only producing 40% of the design output due to
unforeseen
issues.

The \$2.2 billion Ivanpah solar power project in California’s Mojave
Desert is supposed to be generating more than a million
megawatt-hours of
electricity each year. But 15 months after starting up, the plant is
producing just 40% of that, according to data from the U.S. Energy
Department.

Seems like a \$2.2B 60% failure was not a very good investment. Maybe
could have started off a bit smaller and only pissed away a bil or
two?
But it's only gummint money, so who's counting...

--R

On 6/18/15 5:14 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

MG via Mercedes wrote:

BIG oops! 5kw. Though the 5mw system would be very nice to have if
it
was the same price. Then again I probably don't have the room for
it. I
have only 42 acres.

Well, let's see. 5 square meters per kW, so about 25,000 square
meters
for 5 MW.
Around 4000 square meters per acre, looks like you could easily fit
5MW
on ten acres. I wonder if you could get-r-done for \$15 million?

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```Yeabut where do I get \$15 million? I'm not affiliated with any
Gov dept or big company that can get Gov funding for it. And then
there are all the trees I'll have to cut down since I'm not in
the desert. Think of how many tree huggers will be out to get my
head on a pike for that one.

Guess I'll just have to do without.

Manfred

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 17:14:10 -0400
From: Mitch Haley mi...@mitchellhaley.com

Well, let's see. 5 square meters per kW, so about 25,000 square meters for 5 MW.
Around 4000 square meters per acre, looks like you could easily fit 5MW on ten
acres. I wonder if you could get-r-done for \$15 million?

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```Attaboy!

Well said, and thank you.

That is the exact point I was attempting to drive to in terms of practical
use application.

Solar just isn't there, yet. If it ever will be remains to be developed at
some point in the future. If you live in one of the sunshine states, it is
costly, but practical, to cover the roof with solar panels into a grid tie
system. If you live in one of the perpetual winter states .. unlikely.

Solandra failed for good cause. Once the government tete dried up, the
corporate greed of management vaporized, the lack of substance became
visible... and it crashed.

Repeat as necessary until there are no more public funds available.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 5:15 AM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

The key point that I am trying to drive home is the limit on the amount of
solar power available.  This is a hard limit: ~1000 watts/square meter is
the peak under ideal conditions.  A more usable number is 200 watts during
daytime, which takes into account average cloud cover and reduced energy
reaching ground when the sun is low in the sky.

By comparison, 1 gallon of diesel has the potential energy of 130,000
BTU's.  200 watts of solar power is the equivalent of about 3400 BTU's /
hour.  That ~40 order of magnatude difference is why we drive cars and
trucks with internal combustion engines and why we don't have solar cars
(or airplanes) that can do useful things.  Diesel has ~40 times more energy
density than solar power, comparing one gallon of diesel to one square
meter of solar energy.

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:11 AM, fmiser via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

As
pointed out, even 100% efficiency from the panels would not
be enough to sustain flight except at high noon in the
tropics on a sunny day.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

```
WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU??

--R

On 6/18/15 12:46 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

On Mercedes content.. I just bought an 82 Diesel 300 Turbo CD needing total
restoration [see above for level of insanity required to take on such a
project] Arizona car, zero rust. zero body damage, paint and interior eaten
by AZ sun.

Looks like I now have to many Mercedes, but I've been looking for the
perfect CD for a long time. I plan a total strip to bare frame and
rebuild of all mechanical parts. It will never be a Gullwing, but Kaleb is
hiding the one from Havana from me.. ;))

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

```Hi , my name is Grant and I'm addicted to Mercedes. I've tried to kick the
habit for 20 years now and can't seem to do it.. ;))

Anyone suggest a rehab clinic?  Preferably one with a good paint shop, and
body lifts?

There must be a Mercedes Annomous somewhere nearby where I can find
help.. hahahah

Here is a picture link of what I want to end up with when restoration is
complete... except for the color.. mine will be Mercedes Tundra Green with
the same interior color as this example.

http://www.californiaclassix.com/archive/85_MB_300CD_c318.html

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU??

--R

On 6/18/15 12:46 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

On Mercedes content.. I just bought an 82 Diesel 300 Turbo CD needing
total
restoration [see above for level of insanity required to take on such a
project] Arizona car, zero rust. zero body damage, paint and interior
eaten
by AZ sun.

Looks like I now have to many Mercedes, but I've been looking for the
perfect CD for a long time. I plan a total strip to bare frame and
rebuild of all mechanical parts. It will never be a Gullwing, but Kaleb is
hiding the one from Havana from me.. ;))

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```Icarus did pretty good until he flew too close to the sun...

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:10 PM, G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

Attaboy!

Well said, and thank you.

That is the exact point I was attempting to drive to in terms of practical
use application.

Solar just isn't there, yet. If it ever will be remains to be developed at
some point in the future. If you live in one of the sunshine states, it is
costly, but practical, to cover the roof with solar panels into a grid tie
system. If you live in one of the perpetual winter states .. unlikely.

Solandra failed for good cause. Once the government tete dried up, the
corporate greed of management vaporized, the lack of substance became
visible... and it crashed.

Repeat as necessary until there are no more public funds available.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 5:15 AM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

The key point that I am trying to drive home is the limit on the amount
of
solar power available.  This is a hard limit: ~1000 watts/square meter is
the peak under ideal conditions.  A more usable number is 200 watts
during
daytime, which takes into account average cloud cover and reduced energy
reaching ground when the sun is low in the sky.

By comparison, 1 gallon of diesel has the potential energy of 130,000
BTU's.  200 watts of solar power is the equivalent of about 3400 BTU's /
hour.  That ~40 order of magnatude difference is why we drive cars and
trucks with internal combustion engines and why we don't have solar cars
(or airplanes) that can do useful things.  Diesel has ~40 times more
energy
density than solar power, comparing one gallon of diesel to one square
meter of solar energy.

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:11 AM, fmiser via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

As
pointed out, even 100% efficiency from the panels would not
be enough to sustain flight except at high noon in the
tropics on a sunny day.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

```Isn't this Mercedes Anonymous ??? We offer support and help . . .

We want before, during, and after photos of the restoration - - -

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 1:30 PM, G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

Hi , my name is Grant and I'm addicted to Mercedes. I've tried to kick the
habit for 20 years now and can't seem to do it.. ;))

There must be a Mercedes Annomous somewhere nearby where I can find
help.. hahahah

--
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

```Certainly.. otherwise, my rehabilitation would not be complete.. hahaha

Photos will be coming as the project pulls together.. Currently I'm busy
erecting a 13,500 sq ft workshop.  Project will not start until that is up.

The car has been in outside storage for 2 + years so it looks pretty grim
at the moment.. not enough martha in the world to pull the present paint
back to presentable.. AZ sun is brutal.
Original leather interior cracks at touch it is so dry..
Nothing  and love can't fix.. right?

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 12:14 PM, OK Don via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

Isn't this Mercedes Anonymous ??? We offer support and help . . .

We want before, during, and after photos of the restoration - - -

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 1:30 PM, G Mann via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

Hi , my name is Grant and I'm addicted to Mercedes. I've tried to kick
the
habit for 20 years now and can't seem to do it.. ;))

There must be a Mercedes Annomous somewhere nearby where I can find
help.. hahahah

--
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

```I will hand make the new interior using the supply of vat dyed deer skin
[soft as a babies butt] leather which I have from the days when I bought
and sold executive aircraft and did custom interiors and finish on them to
the new buyers livery.

It was standard practice to always have a second set of leather dyed with
the vat stock, so that a seat could be recovered if damaged,and be a
perfect match, so I still have some reserve stock stored.

The feel and look will rival any that Mercedes produced, I'm sure.
The smell will be all leather .. [with just a touch of diesel for effect.
;) ]

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 12:06 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

But will you install genuine, aromatic Italian ROSER leather or rich
(fine, soft) Corinthian leather?

--R

On 6/18/15 2:30 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

Hi , my name is Grant and I'm addicted to Mercedes. I've tried to kick the
habit for 20 years now and can't seem to do it.. ;))

Anyone suggest a rehab clinic?  Preferably one with a good paint shop, and
body lifts?

There must be a Mercedes Annomous somewhere nearby where I can find
help.. hahahah

Here is a picture link of what I want to end up with when restoration is
complete... except for the color.. mine will be Mercedes Tundra Green with
the same interior color as this example.

http://www.californiaclassix.com/archive/85_MB_300CD_c318.html

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU??

--R

On 6/18/15 12:46 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

On Mercedes content.. I just bought an 82 Diesel 300 Turbo CD needing
total
restoration [see above for level of insanity required to take on such a
project] Arizona car, zero rust. zero body damage, paint and interior
eaten
by AZ sun.

Looks like I now have to many Mercedes, but I've been looking for the
perfect CD for a long time. I plan a total strip to bare frame and
rebuild of all mechanical parts. It will never be a Gullwing, but Kaleb
is
hiding the one from Havana from me.. ;))

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

```Send us a sample of tundra green, or a link if you prefer.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:30 PM, G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

Hi , my name is Grant and I'm addicted to Mercedes. I've tried to kick the
habit for 20 years now and can't seem to do it.. ;))

Anyone suggest a rehab clinic?  Preferably one with a good paint shop, and
body lifts?

There must be a Mercedes Annomous somewhere nearby where I can find
help.. hahahah

Here is a picture link of what I want to end up with when restoration is
complete... except for the color.. mine will be Mercedes Tundra Green with
the same interior color as this example.

http://www.californiaclassix.com/archive/85_MB_300CD_c318.html

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU??

--R

On 6/18/15 12:46 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

On Mercedes content.. I just bought an 82 Diesel 300 Turbo CD needing
total
restoration [see above for level of insanity required to take on such a
project] Arizona car, zero rust. zero body damage, paint and interior
eaten
by AZ sun.

Looks like I now have to many Mercedes, but I've been looking for the
perfect CD for a long time. I plan a total strip to bare frame and
rebuild of all mechanical parts. It will never be a Gullwing, but Kaleb
is
hiding the one from Havana from me.. ;))

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

```But will you install genuine, aromatic Italian ROSER leather or rich
(fine, soft) Corinthian leather?

--R

On 6/18/15 2:30 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

Hi , my name is Grant and I'm addicted to Mercedes. I've tried to kick the
habit for 20 years now and can't seem to do it.. ;))

Anyone suggest a rehab clinic?  Preferably one with a good paint shop, and
body lifts?

There must be a Mercedes Annomous somewhere nearby where I can find
help.. hahahah

Here is a picture link of what I want to end up with when restoration is
complete... except for the color.. mine will be Mercedes Tundra Green with
the same interior color as this example.

http://www.californiaclassix.com/archive/85_MB_300CD_c318.html

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU??

--R

On 6/18/15 12:46 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

On Mercedes content.. I just bought an 82 Diesel 300 Turbo CD needing
total
restoration [see above for level of insanity required to take on such a
project] Arizona car, zero rust. zero body damage, paint and interior
eaten
by AZ sun.

Looks like I now have to many Mercedes, but I've been looking for the
perfect CD for a long time. I plan a total strip to bare frame and
rebuild of all mechanical parts. It will never be a Gullwing, but Kaleb is
hiding the one from Havana from me.. ;))

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```
MG via Mercedes wrote:
BIG oops! 5kw. Though the 5mw system would be very nice to have if it
was the same price. Then again I probably don't have the room for it. I
have only 42 acres.

Well, let's see. 5 square meters per kW, so about 25,000 square meters for 5 MW.
Around 4000 square meters per acre, looks like you could easily fit 5MW on ten
acres. I wonder if you could get-r-done for \$15 million?

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```
On 18/06/2015 4:14 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

MG via Mercedes wrote:
BIG oops! 5kw. Though the 5mw system would be very nice to have if it
was the same price. Then again I probably don't have the room for it.
I have only 42 acres.

Well, let's see. 5 square meters per kW, so about 25,000 square meters
for 5 MW.
Around 4000 square meters per acre, looks like you could easily fit
5MW on ten acres. I wonder if you could get-r-done for \$15 million?

___

AND what would it cost to ensure against hail damage? (or wind etc?)

RB

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

```That's a pretty scarce color.  Why?

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 3:23 PM, G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

Certainly.. otherwise, my rehabilitation would not be complete.. hahaha

Photos will be coming as the project pulls together.. Currently I'm busy
erecting a 13,500 sq ft workshop.  Project will not start until that is up.

The car has been in outside storage for 2 + years so it looks pretty grim
at the moment.. not enough martha in the world to pull the present paint
back to presentable.. AZ sun is brutal.
Original leather interior cracks at touch it is so dry..
Nothing  and love can't fix.. right?

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 12:14 PM, OK Don via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

Isn't this Mercedes Anonymous ??? We offer support and help . . .

We want before, during, and after photos of the restoration - - -

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 1:30 PM, G Mann via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

Hi , my name is Grant and I'm addicted to Mercedes. I've tried to kick
the
habit for 20 years now and can't seem to do it.. ;))

There must be a Mercedes Annomous somewhere nearby where I can find
help.. hahahah

--
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many
of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few
who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```The solar focused mirror failure rate is very high.

I know of two other large array projects which are equally poor at
producing energy, yet equally successful at taking investor money..

Private investment or Government subsidy are defined only by the speed with
which investor money is vaporized.

Practical application yields return on investment. Pie in the sky claims do
not... Billions are now lost, along with the time to build these monsters
and ultimately to dismantle them.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

I AM WRONG -- it's not gummint money, to my astoundment!

--R

On 6/18/15 5:48 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:

There was an article
http://www.wsj.com/articles/high-tech-solar-projects-fail-to-deliver-1434138485
a coupla days ago about some huge project in Kollyfawnya, solar thermal
set-up, that is only producing 40% of the design output due to unforeseen
issues.

The \$2.2 billion Ivanpah solar power project in California’s Mojave
Desert is supposed to be generating more than a million megawatt-hours of
electricity each year. But 15 months after starting up, the plant is
producing just 40% of that, according to data from the U.S. Energy
Department.

Seems like a \$2.2B 60% failure was not a very good investment. Maybe
could have started off a bit smaller and only pissed away a bil or two?
But it's only gummint money, so who's counting...

--R

On 6/18/15 5:14 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

MG via Mercedes wrote:

BIG oops! 5kw. Though the 5mw system would be very nice to have if it
was the same price. Then again I probably don't have the room for it. I
have only 42 acres.

Well, let's see. 5 square meters per kW, so about 25,000 square meters
for 5 MW.
Around 4000 square meters per acre, looks like you could easily fit 5MW
on ten acres. I wonder if you could get-r-done for \$15 million?

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```There was an article
http://www.wsj.com/articles/high-tech-solar-projects-fail-to-deliver-1434138485
a coupla days ago about some huge project in Kollyfawnya, solar thermal
set-up, that is only producing 40% of the design output due to
unforeseen issues.

The \$2.2 billion Ivanpah solar power project in California’s Mojave
Desert is supposed to be generating more than a million megawatt-hours
of electricity each year. But 15 months after starting up, the plant is
producing just 40% of that, according to data from the U.S. Energy
Department.

Seems like a \$2.2B 60% failure was not a very good investment. Maybe
could have started off a bit smaller and only pissed away a bil or two?
But it's only gummint money, so who's counting...

--R

On 6/18/15 5:14 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

MG via Mercedes wrote:
BIG oops! 5kw. Though the 5mw system would be very nice to have if it
was the same price. Then again I probably don't have the room for it.
I have only 42 acres.

Well, let's see. 5 square meters per kW, so about 25,000 square meters
for 5 MW.
Around 4000 square meters per acre, looks like you could easily fit
5MW on ten acres. I wonder if you could get-r-done for \$15 million?

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```
I AM WRONG -- it's not gummint money, to my astoundment!

--R

On 6/18/15 5:48 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:
There was an article
http://www.wsj.com/articles/high-tech-solar-projects-fail-to-deliver-1434138485
a coupla days ago about some huge project in Kollyfawnya, solar
thermal set-up, that is only producing 40% of the design output due to
unforeseen issues.

The \$2.2 billion Ivanpah solar power project in California’s Mojave
Desert is supposed to be generating more than a million megawatt-hours
of electricity each year. But 15 months after starting up, the plant
is producing just 40% of that, according to data from the U.S. Energy
Department.

Seems like a \$2.2B 60% failure was not a very good investment. Maybe
could have started off a bit smaller and only pissed away a bil or
two?  But it's only gummint money, so who's counting...

--R

On 6/18/15 5:14 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

MG via Mercedes wrote:
BIG oops! 5kw. Though the 5mw system would be very nice to have if
it was the same price. Then again I probably don't have the room for
it. I have only 42 acres.

Well, let's see. 5 square meters per kW, so about 25,000 square
meters for 5 MW.
Around 4000 square meters per acre, looks like you could easily fit
5MW on ten acres. I wonder if you could get-r-done for \$15 million?

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

```
Yep.  Know how to hurt a guy, donchya?

Wilton

- Original Message -
From: G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com

To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

Hi , my name is Grant and I'm addicted to Mercedes. I've tried to kick the
habit for 20 years now and can't seem to do it.. ;))

Anyone suggest a rehab clinic?  Preferably one with a good paint shop, and
body lifts?

There must be a Mercedes Annomous somewhere nearby where I can find
help.. hahahah

Here is a picture link of what I want to end up with when restoration is
complete... except for the color.. mine will be Mercedes Tundra Green with
the same interior color as this example.

http://www.californiaclassix.com/archive/85_MB_300CD_c318.html

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU??

--R

On 6/18/15 12:46 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

On Mercedes content.. I just bought an 82 Diesel 300 Turbo CD needing
total
restoration [see above for level of insanity required to take on such a
project] Arizona car, zero rust. zero body damage, paint and interior
eaten
by AZ sun.

Looks like I now have to many Mercedes, but I've been looking for the
perfect CD for a long time. I plan a total strip to bare frame and
rebuild of all mechanical parts. It will never be a Gullwing, but Kaleb
is

hiding the one from Havana from me.. ;))

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```  G Mann wrote:

I do raise arguement with the segment of thinking that
leaps forward with the assumption it is a finished and
practical appliction product accepted by public use.

It's not there yet.. it's not even close, yet.. Perhaps,
but not yet.

Andrew wrote:

Grant, I can just see you watching the Wright Brothers lift
off, saying they will never be able to compete with trains
- that silly contraption can only carry one or at most two
men

*chuckle*  The comparison might look similar at a casual
glance - but really it's not.  For the Wrights - and other
early flier - the challenge was on many fronts.
Aerodynamics, engines, control surfaces, user interface,
etc.

With this current solar airplane, there is nothing new
with the airframe, or the motors, or the user interface, or
the control surfaces.  It is a balance between battery
capacity vs. weight vs. photovoltaic (PV) panel output.  As
pointed out, even 100% efficiency from the panels would not
be enough to sustain flight except at high noon in the
tropics on a sunny day.

With well over 100 years of development, there's a very low
probability that electric motor efficiency will be able to
increase much.  Tiny bits here and there, but unless someone
finds room temperature superconductors we can't expect much
change from the motor.

Same with the airframe drag.  More than 100 years of study,
expanding from the kite that the Wrights and Whitehead flew
to the supersonic and high-altitude aircraft, and many
points in between, suggest there's little hope of getting
lift with less drag.

Batteries have a lot of potential for advancement - but that
won't _sustain_ flight.  Charge 'em to make a flight - yes.
But I understood the claim to be that PV alone would be
enough.

So those PV panels will _never_ be 100% efficient.  I dream
of the day when maybe, just maybe they will top 60%.  It's
probably a pipe dream just as much as a 200 MPG carburetor
was in the 1970's. (which, by the way, would require the
engine to be something like 250% efficient...)

So I'm with Grant.  Physics rules.  Even if a fellow doesn't
understand physics, he still can't violate those laws
regardless of what Congress does!

I expect major improvement in electric storage technology,
and hope that I might live to see a rugged 30% efficient PV
panel.  But even then,  our transportation machines require
more energy than they can collect from the sun in transit.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```Looks like the pure solar plane hasn't made it yet, can't seem to get the
weather to cooperate

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com
wrote:

What about the pure solar plane flying around the globe - as we speak?

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```Please tell us the amount of power (kilowatts) in a square meter of
sunlight at sea level.  Now compare that to the amount of power required to
fly an airplane, and the square meters of wing surface on the upper wings
of the subject airplane.  A little simple math, fill in some reasonable
estimates for missing information, and I think you will begin to see that
even if solar panels reach 100% efficiency, they still won't work...

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

I beg to differ.  Solar panel efficiencies are climbing relentlessly while
the manufacturing cost continues to decline.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```I beg to differ.  Solar panel efficiencies are climbing relentlessly while
the manufacturing cost continues to decline.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:38 PM, WILTON via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

Amen.

People still trying to get something for/from nothing (or more out of it
than goes into it).  Physics is still physics, and it'll work EVERY time.

Wilton

- Original Message - From: G Mann via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

I am troubled by the ongoing fantasy that an array of solar panels on the
wings would recharge and power the airplane. Or an electric car.

That fantasy seems to be driven by a direct disconnect from reality, which
in turn, seems driven by the belief that all electricity comes out of a
grid socket and is instantly available and instantly transfers full charge
to the battery bank.

It simply does not work that way. PV panels absorb energy from the sun,
then produce electricity at a relativly low conversion rate [even the
highest tech panels yield only about 16% ]...

Sorry to rain you your private parade. The reality gap between dream and
production is a wide one, on the same scale as the ancient alchemist who
believed there was a simple formula to convert lead to gold..
On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 9:29 AM, OK Don via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

It's certainly not the worlds first, Yuneec flew one in 2009 - - -
according to the Telegraph: The aircraft manufacturer has unveiled the
world's first plug-in plane at the Paris Air Show.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/exclusivevids/ExclusiveVideo_YuneecE430_ElectricAirplane_FirstFlight_200617-1.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwyyQ1BckK0

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

All they need is a solar PV charging station...

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:12 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

--
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many
of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few
who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```Reality is such a harsh mistress..

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

Looks like the pure solar plane hasn't made it yet, can't seem to get the
weather to cooperate

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com
wrote:

What about the pure solar plane flying around the globe - as we speak?

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```What about the pure solar plane flying around the globe - as we speak?

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

Please tell us the amount of power (kilowatts) in a square meter of
sunlight at sea level.  Now compare that to the amount of power required to
fly an airplane, and the square meters of wing surface on the upper wings
of the subject airplane.  A little simple math, fill in some reasonable
estimates for missing information, and I think you will begin to see that
even if solar panels reach 100% efficiency, they still won't work...

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

I beg to differ.  Solar panel efficiencies are climbing relentlessly
while
the manufacturing cost continues to decline.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```Believing that CO2 is a greenhouse gas REQUIRES one to not believe in
physics, so it is no surprise at all that AGW believers also think that
solar is a viable option for transportation.

http://www.kusi.com/story/19600263/why-man-made-global-warming-is-ridiculous
-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:38 PM, WILTON via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

Amen.

People still trying to get something for/from nothing (or more out of it
than goes into it).  Physics is still physics, and it'll work EVERY time.

Wilton

-

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```And. The useful load for that Experimental category airplane is

Zero passengers.. Zero cargo.. but.. It is able to travel at almost 80
MPH... most days when the sun shines... for a while

Soon... your majesty.. very soon... I'll be able to turn lead into gold and
you will be incredibly rich.. I do need just a little more equipment and
funding

Reality surely sucks, doesn't it..

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

What about the pure solar plane flying around the globe - as we speak?

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

Please tell us the amount of power (kilowatts) in a square meter of
sunlight at sea level.  Now compare that to the amount of power required
to
fly an airplane, and the square meters of wing surface on the upper wings
of the subject airplane.  A little simple math, fill in some reasonable
estimates for missing information, and I think you will begin to see that
even if solar panels reach 100% efficiency, they still won't work...

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

I beg to differ.  Solar panel efficiencies are climbing relentlessly
while
the manufacturing cost continues to decline.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```Like I said, Physics'll work EVERY time.  It's gotcha right by the
ying-yang, and not lightly - it's always squeezin'.

Wilton

- Original Message -
From: Meade Dillon via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com

To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: Meade Dillon dillonm...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

I'm going to answer my own question, as I think Andrew either won't or
can't.

The subject plane's wingspan is 9.5 meters, let's say we'll be able to fit
12 square meters of PV cells.

When it is summer and the sun is shining, and it is shining directly down
(local apparent noon), about 1000 watts per square meter reach the earth.

So the maximum amount of power available for the PV cells to absorb is
12,000 watts, under exactly the right conditions.

The subject plane has two engines, 30,000 watts each, so it requires
60,000

watts to fly.  100% efficient PV cells won't do it.  What is the current
state of the art, 35% efficient?

Solar won't get you there, unless you can violate the laws of physics.

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Meade Dillon dillonm...@gmail.com
wrote:

Please tell us the amount of power (kilowatts) in a square meter of
sunlight at sea level.  Now compare that to the amount of power required
to

fly an airplane, and the square meters of wing surface on the upper wings
of the subject airplane.  A little simple math, fill in some reasonable
estimates for missing information, and I think you will begin to see that
even if solar panels reach 100% efficiency, they still won't work...

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

I beg to differ.  Solar panel efficiencies are climbing relentlessly
while

the manufacturing cost continues to decline.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

```Max wrote:
I'm with you on the nuke plants, not so much the electric cars.

None of it works.
We will pollute ourselves in to oblivion.
Read the Pope Encyclical on pollution, greed.
Ain't a thing to be done.  Call it AGW or what have you - we either
retreat to stone age or die polluted.
Ain't that real fisiks?
...or, maybe it is christianity...
mao

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

```I'm with you on the nuke plants, not so much the electric cars.  Ridding the
world of coal fired power plants would be a great thing, but there is so much
oil and gas in the ground that internal combustion transportation will be very
economical for decades and maybe centuries to come.
--
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On June 17, 2015 5:30:42 PM EDT, Rich Thomas via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
Actually, I am thinking that building more base-load nukes and having
distributed batteries (including in charging cars at night) around so
that more baseload plants can keep cranking at a steady efficient pace
around the clock, then dumping that power back into the grid or your
building/office/whatever during high demand or using it in a car, would

make some sense, while also having chemical power in a hybrid mode.

--R

On 6/17/15 5:17 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:
Solar powered practical electric vehicle.. Fantasy.

Oil powered practical internal combustion vehicle ... Reality.

Any further questions?

Thanks you for sharing your fantasies with us Andrew ...
By all means.. follow your dreams.. some day, lead may become gold by
the
principles of magic..

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```Agree with all you said except the 16% part. The newest Sunpower
x-21 series panels have an efficiency of 21.5%. Still not much
better but over the life of the panels could give up to 75% more
power then the 16% units, according to the manufacturer.

Not really germane to what you were saying, but I did find it
interesting when investigating for an upcoming 5000kw system
purchase.

Manfred

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 10:24:18 -0700
From: G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com

It simply does not work that way. PV panels absorb energy from
the sun,

then produce electricity at a relativly low conversion rate [even the
highest tech panels yield only about 16% ]...

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```Solar powered practical electric vehicle.. Fantasy.

Oil powered practical internal combustion vehicle ... Reality.

Any further questions?

Thanks you for sharing your fantasies with us Andrew ...
By all means.. follow your dreams.. some day, lead may become gold by the
principles of magic..

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:50 PM, WILTON via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

Like I said, Physics'll work EVERY time.  It's gotcha right by the
ying-yang, and not lightly - it's always squeezin'.

Wilton

- Original Message - From: Meade Dillon via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: Meade Dillon dillonm...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

I'm going to answer my own question, as I think Andrew either won't or
can't.

The subject plane's wingspan is 9.5 meters, let's say we'll be able to fit
12 square meters of PV cells.

When it is summer and the sun is shining, and it is shining directly down
(local apparent noon), about 1000 watts per square meter reach the earth.

So the maximum amount of power available for the PV cells to absorb is
12,000 watts, under exactly the right conditions.

The subject plane has two engines, 30,000 watts each, so it requires
60,000
watts to fly.  100% efficient PV cells won't do it.  What is the current
state of the art, 35% efficient?

Solar won't get you there, unless you can violate the laws of physics.

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Meade Dillon dillonm...@gmail.com
wrote:

Please tell us the amount of power (kilowatts) in a square meter of
sunlight at sea level.  Now compare that to the amount of power required
to
fly an airplane, and the square meters of wing surface on the upper wings
of the subject airplane.  A little simple math, fill in some reasonable
estimates for missing information, and I think you will begin to see that
even if solar panels reach 100% efficiency, they still won't work...

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

I beg to differ.  Solar panel efficiencies are climbing relentlessly
while
the manufacturing cost continues to decline.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```I'm going to answer my own question, as I think Andrew either won't or
can't.

The subject plane's wingspan is 9.5 meters, let's say we'll be able to fit
12 square meters of PV cells.

When it is summer and the sun is shining, and it is shining directly down
(local apparent noon), about 1000 watts per square meter reach the earth.

So the maximum amount of power available for the PV cells to absorb is
12,000 watts, under exactly the right conditions.

The subject plane has two engines, 30,000 watts each, so it requires 60,000
watts to fly.  100% efficient PV cells won't do it.  What is the current
state of the art, 35% efficient?

Solar won't get you there, unless you can violate the laws of physics.

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Meade Dillon dillonm...@gmail.com wrote:

Please tell us the amount of power (kilowatts) in a square meter of
sunlight at sea level.  Now compare that to the amount of power required to
fly an airplane, and the square meters of wing surface on the upper wings
of the subject airplane.  A little simple math, fill in some reasonable
estimates for missing information, and I think you will begin to see that
even if solar panels reach 100% efficiency, they still won't work...

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

I beg to differ.  Solar panel efficiencies are climbing relentlessly while
the manufacturing cost continues to decline.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```

On Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:04:35 -0400
Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

What about the pure solar plane flying around the globe - as we speak?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/25/business/energy-environment/swiss-pilots-to-fly-solar-plane-around-world.html?_r=0

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

Please tell us the amount of power (kilowatts) in a square meter of
sunlight at sea level.  Now compare that to the amount of power required to
fly an airplane, and the square meters of wing surface on the upper wings
of the subject airplane.  A little simple math, fill in some reasonable
estimates for missing information, and I think you will begin to see that
even if solar panels reach 100% efficiency, they still won't work...

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

I beg to differ.  Solar panel efficiencies are climbing relentlessly
while
the manufacturing cost continues to decline.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5961 / Virus Database: 4365/10035 - Release Date: 06/17/15

--
arche...@embarqmail.com arche...@embarqmail.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

```Actually, I am thinking that building more base-load nukes and having
distributed batteries (including in charging cars at night) around so
that more baseload plants can keep cranking at a steady efficient pace
around the clock, then dumping that power back into the grid or your
building/office/whatever during high demand or using it in a car, would
make some sense, while also having chemical power in a hybrid mode.

--R

On 6/17/15 5:17 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

Solar powered practical electric vehicle.. Fantasy.

Oil powered practical internal combustion vehicle ... Reality.

Any further questions?

Thanks you for sharing your fantasies with us Andrew ...
By all means.. follow your dreams.. some day, lead may become gold by the
principles of magic..

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

```My view on the Pope's encyclical: he's just alienated a significant portion
of his flock by moving into the political / AGW-religion arena.  A few
years ago, many protestants were considering converting to Catholicism due
to the infiltration of leftists / wackos / LBGT movement that was totally
perverting many American churches.  Seemed like the catholics were going to
hold the line against all that nonsense, and were finally dealing with the
priests that assaulted/abused young boys, so maybe that would be a refuge
of sorts.  Now I fear many of those are quite disappointed in the new
direction this Pope has taken.

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Mountain Man via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

None of it works.
We will pollute ourselves in to oblivion.
Read the Pope Encyclical on pollution, greed.
Ain't a thing to be done.  Call it AGW or what have you - we either
retreat to stone age or die polluted.
Ain't that real fisiks?
...or, maybe it is christianity...
mao

___

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

```Max wrote:
My view on the Pope's encyclical...

This is hard to figure.
Something afoot but hard to see what is happening regarding AGW, etc
and then too the LBGT stuff you mention also.
Tough times for religion and science...
Either way, pollution and our ways will not cease, so...
mao

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```Grant, I can just see you watching the Wright Brothers lift off, saying
they will never be able to compete with trains - that silly contraption
can only carry one or at most two men

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 10:24 PM, G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

I raise no arguement with experimentation and exploration what so ever.

I do raise arguement with the segment of thinking that leaps forward with
the assumption it is a finished and practical appliction product accepted
by public use.

It's not there yet.. it's not even close, yet.. Perhaps, but not yet.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:07 PM, OK Don via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

Solar Impulse 2 (stuck in China last I heard waiting for enough good
weather to cross the Pacific Ocean at 35 mph): with a massive 263-foot
wingspan, the same as a Boeing 747. Yet even with that massive wingspan
loaded with more than 17,000 monocrystalline silicon solar cells, and
more
than 2,000 pounds worth of lithium-ion batteries, the entire plane weighs
in at just over 5,000 pounds. This allows the 17.5 horsepower to push the
Solar Impulse 2 along at a maximum speed of… 35 MPH.

Now, there was a time when most people scoffed at the idea of a home
computer, and what would you do with one any way? A digital camera that
would fit inside a portable phone? Impossible, or at least not good
enough
to use! Just because we can't see how it can be done now, doesn't mean
that
it's not possible, just that we don't know how - yet.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:08 PM, G Mann via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

And. The useful load for that Experimental category airplane is

Zero passengers.. Zero cargo.. but.. It is able to travel at almost 80
MPH... most days when the sun shines... for a while

Soon... your majesty.. very soon... I'll be able to turn lead into gold
and
you will be incredibly rich.. I do need just a little more equipment
and
funding

Reality surely sucks, doesn't it..

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

What about the pure solar plane flying around the globe - as we
speak?

--
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many
of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few
who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```Actually, several parties flew before the Wrights.  The problem the Wrights
solved was how to turn.

-Original Message-
From:  Rich  Thomas via Mercedes
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 11:01 PM

The Wright brothers were not constrained by physics, they were liberated by
physics. Their insights were a glimpse into a whole new world of physical
reality., and they were among the first.

--R (sent from my miniPad)

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```
investigating for an upcoming 5000kw system purchase.

5MW?  That's pretty big!

There's a lot to be said for a mobile fleet of accumulators.
If you use the accumulator to drive off, it's less likely that
the juice would have been needed where it was parked anyway.

Even if you don't go anywhere, your car is still working!

Wind and solar could charge, as available, with nukes (etc.) picking
up the slack.  The fleet handles the leveling chores, the fully
controllable plants handle the trends.

-- Jim

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```More detail, if you're interested -

*General characteristics*

- *Crew:* 1
- *Length:* 22.4 m (73.5 ft)
- *Wingspan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingspan:* 71.9 m (236 ft)
- *Height:* 6.37 m (20.9 ft)
- *Wing area:* 17,248 photovoltaic cells cover the top of the wings,
fuselage and tailplane for a total area of 269.5 m2 (rated at 66 kW peak)
- *Loaded weight:* 2,300 kg (5,100 lb)
- *Powerplant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_engine:* 4 ×
electric motors powered from solar cells and 4 x 41 kWh lithium-ion
batteries (633 kg), providing 13 kW[20]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Impulse#cite_note-Lipsey-20,
electric motors (17.4 HP) each
- *Propeller diameter:* 4 m (13.1 ft)
- *Take-off speed:* 20 kts (36 km/h)

*Performance*

- *Maximum speed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_speeds#Regulatory_V-speeds:* 77 kts
(140 km/h) 87 mph
- *Cruise speed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_speeds#Vc:* 49 kts (90
km/h) (33 kts (60 km/h) at night to save power)
- *Service ceiling
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceiling_(aeronautics):* 8,500 m (27,900
ft) with a maximum altitude of 12,000 metres (39,000 ft)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Impulse

It was in Japan in the last report I read, still waiting for weather to
cooperate so they can fly to Hawaii .

OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```
so it requires 60,000 watts to fly.

Maybe to take off, but typical cruise power is more relevant to
how practical the system is.  I still bet it isn't good enough!

-- Jim

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```The Wright brothers were not constrained by physics, they were liberated by
physics. Their insights were a glimpse into a whole new world of physical
reality., and they were among the first.

--R (sent from my miniPad)

On Jun 17, 2015, at 10:31 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

Grant, I can just see you watching the Wright Brothers lift off, saying
they will never be able to compete with trains - that silly contraption
can only carry one or at most two men

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 10:24 PM, G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

I raise no arguement with experimentation and exploration what so ever.

I do raise arguement with the segment of thinking that leaps forward with
the assumption it is a finished and practical appliction product accepted
by public use.

It's not there yet.. it's not even close, yet.. Perhaps, but not yet.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:07 PM, OK Don via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

Solar Impulse 2 (stuck in China last I heard waiting for enough good
weather to cross the Pacific Ocean at 35 mph): with a massive 263-foot
wingspan, the same as a Boeing 747. Yet even with that massive wingspan
loaded with more than 17,000 monocrystalline silicon solar cells, and
more
than 2,000 pounds worth of lithium-ion batteries, the entire plane weighs
in at just over 5,000 pounds. This allows the 17.5 horsepower to push the
Solar Impulse 2 along at a maximum speed of… 35 MPH.

Now, there was a time when most people scoffed at the idea of a home
computer, and what would you do with one any way? A digital camera that
would fit inside a portable phone? Impossible, or at least not good
enough
to use! Just because we can't see how it can be done now, doesn't mean
that
it's not possible, just that we don't know how - yet.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:08 PM, G Mann via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

And. The useful load for that Experimental category airplane is

Zero passengers.. Zero cargo.. but.. It is able to travel at almost 80
MPH... most days when the sun shines... for a while

Soon... your majesty.. very soon... I'll be able to turn lead into gold
and
you will be incredibly rich.. I do need just a little more equipment
and
funding

Reality surely sucks, doesn't it..

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

```What's a good Catholic like Bush and Rubio - trapped by right wing
ideology- to do?  Squirm, I guess.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 10:21 PM, Mountain Man via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

Max wrote:
My view on the Pope's encyclical...

This is hard to figure.
Something afoot but hard to see what is happening regarding AGW, etc
and then too the LBGT stuff you mention also.
Tough times for religion and science...
Either way, pollution and our ways will not cease, so...
mao

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```On the other hand, there have been a LOT of promising technologies that
challenged existing physics, and lost. Cold fusion anyone?

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 9:31 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

Grant, I can just see you watching the Wright Brothers lift off, saying
they will never be able to compete with trains - that silly contraption
can only carry one or at most two men

--
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

```What most religious people do - ignore that parts that they don't want to
obey/believe.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 9:28 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

What's a good Catholic like Bush and Rubio - trapped by right wing
ideology- to do?  Squirm, I guess.

--
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```Solar Impulse 2 (stuck in China last I heard waiting for enough good
weather to cross the Pacific Ocean at 35 mph): with a massive 263-foot
wingspan, the same as a Boeing 747. Yet even with that massive wingspan
loaded with more than 17,000 monocrystalline silicon solar cells, and more
than 2,000 pounds worth of lithium-ion batteries, the entire plane weighs
in at just over 5,000 pounds. This allows the 17.5 horsepower to push the
Solar Impulse 2 along at a maximum speed of… 35 MPH.

Now, there was a time when most people scoffed at the idea of a home
computer, and what would you do with one any way? A digital camera that
would fit inside a portable phone? Impossible, or at least not good enough
to use! Just because we can't see how it can be done now, doesn't mean that
it's not possible, just that we don't know how - yet.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:08 PM, G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

And. The useful load for that Experimental category airplane is

Zero passengers.. Zero cargo.. but.. It is able to travel at almost 80
MPH... most days when the sun shines... for a while

Soon... your majesty.. very soon... I'll be able to turn lead into gold and
you will be incredibly rich.. I do need just a little more equipment and
funding

Reality surely sucks, doesn't it..

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

What about the pure solar plane flying around the globe - as we speak?

--
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```I raise no arguement with experimentation and exploration what so ever.

I do raise arguement with the segment of thinking that leaps forward with
the assumption it is a finished and practical appliction product accepted
by public use.

It's not there yet.. it's not even close, yet.. Perhaps, but not yet.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:07 PM, OK Don via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

Solar Impulse 2 (stuck in China last I heard waiting for enough good
weather to cross the Pacific Ocean at 35 mph): with a massive 263-foot
wingspan, the same as a Boeing 747. Yet even with that massive wingspan
loaded with more than 17,000 monocrystalline silicon solar cells, and more
than 2,000 pounds worth of lithium-ion batteries, the entire plane weighs
in at just over 5,000 pounds. This allows the 17.5 horsepower to push the
Solar Impulse 2 along at a maximum speed of… 35 MPH.

Now, there was a time when most people scoffed at the idea of a home
computer, and what would you do with one any way? A digital camera that
would fit inside a portable phone? Impossible, or at least not good enough
to use! Just because we can't see how it can be done now, doesn't mean that
it's not possible, just that we don't know how - yet.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:08 PM, G Mann via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

And. The useful load for that Experimental category airplane is

Zero passengers.. Zero cargo.. but.. It is able to travel at almost 80
MPH... most days when the sun shines... for a while

Soon... your majesty.. very soon... I'll be able to turn lead into gold
and
you will be incredibly rich.. I do need just a little more equipment and
funding

Reality surely sucks, doesn't it..

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

What about the pure solar plane flying around the globe - as we speak?

--
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```I am troubled by the ongoing fantasy that an array of solar panels on the
wings would recharge and power the airplane. Or an electric car.

That fantasy seems to be driven by a direct disconnect from reality, which
in turn, seems driven by the belief that all electricity comes out of a
grid socket and is instantly available and instantly transfers full charge
to the battery bank.

It simply does not work that way. PV panels absorb energy from the sun,
then produce electricity at a relativly low conversion rate [even the
highest tech panels yield only about 16% ]...

Sorry to rain you your private parade. The reality gap between dream and
production is a wide one, on the same scale as the ancient alchemist who
believed there was a simple formula to convert lead to gold..
On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 9:29 AM, OK Don via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

It's certainly not the worlds first, Yuneec flew one in 2009 - - -
according to the Telegraph: The aircraft manufacturer has unveiled the
world's first plug-in plane at the Paris Air Show.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/exclusivevids/ExclusiveVideo_YuneecE430_ElectricAirplane_FirstFlight_200617-1.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwyyQ1BckK0

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

All they need is a solar PV charging station...

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:12 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

--
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```
Amen.

People still trying to get something for/from nothing (or more out of it
than goes into it).  Physics is still physics, and it'll work EVERY time.

Wilton

- Original Message -
From: G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com

To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

I am troubled by the ongoing fantasy that an array of solar panels on the
wings would recharge and power the airplane. Or an electric car.

That fantasy seems to be driven by a direct disconnect from reality, which
in turn, seems driven by the belief that all electricity comes out of a
grid socket and is instantly available and instantly transfers full charge
to the battery bank.

It simply does not work that way. PV panels absorb energy from the sun,
then produce electricity at a relativly low conversion rate [even the
highest tech panels yield only about 16% ]...

Sorry to rain you your private parade. The reality gap between dream and
production is a wide one, on the same scale as the ancient alchemist who
believed there was a simple formula to convert lead to gold..
On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 9:29 AM, OK Don via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com

wrote:

It's certainly not the worlds first, Yuneec flew one in 2009 - - -
according to the Telegraph: The aircraft manufacturer has unveiled the
world's first plug-in plane at the Paris Air Show.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/exclusivevids/ExclusiveVideo_YuneecE430_ElectricAirplane_FirstFlight_200617-1.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwyyQ1BckK0

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

All they need is a solar PV charging station...

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:12 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

--
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many
of

our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few
who

learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```
archer75--- via Mercedes wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3117977/World-s-plug-plane-takes-Bright-sparks-Airbus-unveil-electric-two-seater-E-Fan-aircraft-Paris-Air-s-nearly-silent-flight.html

Electric has been replacing methanol in model planes over the last 20 years or
so, mainly because Lithium batteries have become cheaper than methanol and
nitromethane and high efficiency brushless electric motors are becoming cheaper
while glow engines are getting more expensive.

I assume the Airbus is ducted fan because it's more efficient than propellers?
It's surprising to me because you don't often see DF in models unless it's a
scale model of a jet plane.

Mitch.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```All they need is a solar PV charging station...

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:12 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

archer75--- via Mercedes wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3117977/World-s-plug-plane-takes-Bright-sparks-Airbus-unveil-electric-two-seater-E-Fan-aircraft-Paris-Air-s-nearly-silent-flight.html

Electric has been replacing methanol in model planes over the last 20
years or so, mainly because Lithium batteries have become cheaper than
methanol and nitromethane and high efficiency brushless electric motors are
becoming cheaper while glow engines are getting more expensive.

I assume the Airbus is ducted fan because it's more efficient than
propellers? It's surprising to me because you don't often see DF in models
unless it's a scale model of a jet plane.

Mitch.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```

### Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

```It's certainly not the worlds first, Yuneec flew one in 2009 - - -
according to the Telegraph: The aircraft manufacturer has unveiled the
world's first plug-in plane at the Paris Air Show.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/exclusivevids/ExclusiveVideo_YuneecE430_ElectricAirplane_FirstFlight_200617-1.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwyyQ1BckK0

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

All they need is a solar PV charging station...

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:12 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

--
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

```