Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-20 Thread Max Dillon via Mercedes
Thanks Craig!
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300
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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-19 Thread Craig via Mercedes
On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 08:15:31 -0400 Meade Dillon via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 The key point that I am trying to drive home is the limit on the amount
 of solar power available.  This is a hard limit: ~1000 watts/square
 meter is the peak under ideal conditions.  A more usable number is 200
 watts during daytime, which takes into account average cloud cover and
 reduced energy reaching ground when the sun is low in the sky.
 
 By comparison, 1 gallon of diesel has the potential energy of 130,000
 BTU's.  200 watts of solar power is the equivalent of about 3400 BTU's /
 hour.  That ~40 order of magnatude difference is why we drive cars and
 trucks with internal combustion engines and why we don't have solar cars
 (or airplanes) that can do useful things.

1000 Watts = 3412 BTU/hr
 200 Watts = 682.4 BTU/hr

130,000
--- = 190.5
 682.4

So, it's roughly a factor of 190, not 40 orders of magnitude (= 10^40).


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-18 Thread Meade Dillon via Mercedes
The key point that I am trying to drive home is the limit on the amount of
solar power available.  This is a hard limit: ~1000 watts/square meter is
the peak under ideal conditions.  A more usable number is 200 watts during
daytime, which takes into account average cloud cover and reduced energy
reaching ground when the sun is low in the sky.

By comparison, 1 gallon of diesel has the potential energy of 130,000
BTU's.  200 watts of solar power is the equivalent of about 3400 BTU's /
hour.  That ~40 order of magnatude difference is why we drive cars and
trucks with internal combustion engines and why we don't have solar cars
(or airplanes) that can do useful things.  Diesel has ~40 times more energy
density than solar power, comparing one gallon of diesel to one square
meter of solar energy.

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:11 AM, fmiser via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

   As
 pointed out, even 100% efficiency from the panels would not
 be enough to sustain flight except at high noon in the
 tropics on a sunny day.


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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

2015-06-18 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
10-4.  I was thinking the same thing.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 10:37 PM, OK Don via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 wrote:

 What most religious people do - ignore that parts that they don't want to
 obey/believe.

 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 9:28 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

  What's a good Catholic like Bush and Rubio - trapped by right wing
  ideology- to do?  Squirm, I guess.
 



 --
 OK Don

 NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

 *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
 our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

 There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
 learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
 for themselves.

 WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
 2013 F150, 18 mpg
 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-18 Thread MG via Mercedes
BIG oops! 5kw. Though the 5mw system would be very nice to have 
if it was the same price. Then again I probably don't have the 
room for it. I have only 42 acres.


Jim Cathey wrote:

investigating for an upcoming 5000kw system purchase.


5MW?  That's pretty big!

There's a lot to be said for a mobile fleet of accumulators.
If you use the accumulator to drive off, it's less likely that
the juice would have been needed where it was parked anyway.

Even if you don't go anywhere, your car is still working!

Wind and solar could charge, as available, with nukes (etc.) picking
up the slack.  The fleet handles the leveling chores, the fully
controllable plants handle the trends.

-- Jim





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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

2015-06-18 Thread G Mann via Mercedes
I belong to a sect that only has 8 members, we worship 7 gods, and we are
the only true religion, death to all others...

Crazy enough?

Snark off...

On Mercedes content.. I just bought an 82 Diesel 300 Turbo CD needing total
restoration [see above for level of insanity required to take on such a
project] Arizona car, zero rust. zero body damage, paint and interior eaten
by AZ sun.

Looks like I now have to many Mercedes, but I've been looking for the
perfect CD for a long time. I plan a total strip to bare frame and
rebuild of all mechanical parts. It will never be a Gullwing, but Kaleb is
hiding the one from Havana from me.. ;))



On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 7:29 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 10-4.  I was thinking the same thing.

 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 10:37 PM, OK Don via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com
  wrote:

  What most religious people do - ignore that parts that they don't want
 to
  obey/believe.
 
  On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 9:28 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
  mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
   What's a good Catholic like Bush and Rubio - trapped by right wing
   ideology- to do?  Squirm, I guess.
  
 
 
 
  --
  OK Don
 
  NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!
 
  *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many
 of
  our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain
 
  There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few
 who
  learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
  for themselves.
 
  WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
  2013 F150, 18 mpg
  2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
  1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
  ___
  http://www.okiebenz.com
 
  To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
 
  To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
  http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
 
 
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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-18 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes


 On June 18, 2015 at 8:21 PM archer75--- via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 wrote:
 
 
 The situation doesn't seem to be quite like you describe it, Grant:
 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power#Parabolic_trough

I remember an article in Popular Science in the 70s or 80s. 
Some guy had made a parabolic solar heating reflector system with some kind of
two axis tracking, said to be simple and reliable. 
The dish was something like 8-10' in diameter, and it made very hot water at the
focal point. 

I used to think of doing something with mirrors to increase the efficiency of
solar panels, but now that they're down around $1 a watt it doesn't seem like
such a good idea to spend extra money to make them hotter for a little extra
power. I bet if you used a couple of mirrors to double or triple the solar flux
you'd seriously lower the panel's life. 

Mitch. 

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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-18 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
I'm not a fan of concentrated solar power.  Too many bird deaths, and now
it appears they miscalculated the efficiencies as well.  Distributed solar
is the way to go.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 10:36 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 If you are only talking about return on investment, then that's generally
 true in the U.S., but the success and durability of such plants in
 producing electricity seems to be well proven.

 Spain has been in dire straits economically, and it has elected a
 conservative president. I suspect these are the reasons it isn't
 underwriting such projects.

 My understanding is that such plants usually yield an efficiency of around
 30%. An investor who bought in based on 60% efficiency probably wasn't
 doing his homework.

 I think it's generally recognized that having multiple sources of domestic
 energy is of value to any nation. The government financed TVA dams and
 others certainly were when large amounts of additional electricity were
 needed before and during WW-2.

 Gerry




 G Mann wrote:
  Ohh? Really?
 
  Show me the return on investment capital from product [energy] generated
  and sold.
 
  Lots of money spent.. very low return on investment.. so much so.. Spain
  has put a stop on further underwriting of projects, last I heard.
 
  If your point is, plants were built. Then yes.. they exist. The link
 lists
  them, nicely.
 
  My point is, those plants are not making design capacity or efficency,
  which was used to attract investors money.. a lot of it. It lacks
 delivery
  as advertised.. for what ever reason.
 
  Show me instead, quarterly profit reports for each of those plants, and
  capital investment return to the investors.
 
 
  On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 5:21 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes 
  mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
   The situation doesn't seem to be quite like you describe it, Grant:
  
  
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power#Parabolic_trough
  
   G Mann wrote:
  
The solar focused mirror failure rate is very high.
   
I know of two other large array projects which are equally poor at
producing energy, yet equally successful at taking investor money..
   
Private investment or Government subsidy are defined only by the
 speed
   with
which investor money is vaporized.
   
Practical application yields return on investment. Pie in the sky
 claims
   do
not... Billions are now lost, along with the time to build these
 monsters
and ultimately to dismantle them.
   
On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
   
 I AM WRONG -- it's not gummint money, to my astoundment!

 --R




 On 6/18/15 5:48 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:

 There was an article

  
 http://www.wsj.com/articles/high-tech-solar-projects-fail-to-deliver-1434138485
 a coupla days ago about some huge project in Kollyfawnya, solar
   thermal
 set-up, that is only producing 40% of the design output due to
   unforeseen
 issues.

  The $2.2 billion Ivanpah solar power project in California’s
 Mojave
 Desert is supposed to be generating more than a million
   megawatt-hours of
 electricity each year. But 15 months after starting up, the plant
 is
 producing just 40% of that, according to data from the U.S. Energy
 Department.

 Seems like a $2.2B 60% failure was not a very good investment.
 Maybe
 could have started off a bit smaller and only pissed away a bil or
   two?
 But it's only gummint money, so who's counting...

 --R



 On 6/18/15 5:14 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

 MG via Mercedes wrote:

 BIG oops! 5kw. Though the 5mw system would be very nice to have
 if
   it
 was the same price. Then again I probably don't have the room
 for
   it. I
 have only 42 acres.


 Well, let's see. 5 square meters per kW, so about 25,000 square
   meters
 for 5 MW.
 Around 4000 square meters per acre, looks like you could easily
 fit
   5MW
 on ten acres. I wonder if you could get-r-done for $15 million?

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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-18 Thread G Mann via Mercedes
Ohh? Really?

Show me the return on investment capital from product [energy] generated
and sold.

Lots of money spent.. very low return on investment.. so much so.. Spain
has put a stop on further underwriting of projects, last I heard.

If your point is, plants were built. Then yes.. they exist. The link lists
them, nicely.

My point is, those plants are not making design capacity or efficency,
which was used to attract investors money.. a lot of it. It lacks delivery
as advertised.. for what ever reason.

Show me instead, quarterly profit reports for each of those plants, and
capital investment return to the investors.


On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 5:21 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 The situation doesn't seem to be quite like you describe it, Grant:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power#Parabolic_trough

 G Mann wrote:

  The solar focused mirror failure rate is very high.
 
  I know of two other large array projects which are equally poor at
  producing energy, yet equally successful at taking investor money..
 
  Private investment or Government subsidy are defined only by the speed
 with
  which investor money is vaporized.
 
  Practical application yields return on investment. Pie in the sky claims
 do
  not... Billions are now lost, along with the time to build these monsters
  and ultimately to dismantle them.
 
  On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
  mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
   I AM WRONG -- it's not gummint money, to my astoundment!
  
   --R
  
  
  
  
   On 6/18/15 5:48 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:
  
   There was an article
  
 http://www.wsj.com/articles/high-tech-solar-projects-fail-to-deliver-1434138485
   a coupla days ago about some huge project in Kollyfawnya, solar
 thermal
   set-up, that is only producing 40% of the design output due to
 unforeseen
   issues.
  
The $2.2 billion Ivanpah solar power project in California’s Mojave
   Desert is supposed to be generating more than a million
 megawatt-hours of
   electricity each year. But 15 months after starting up, the plant is
   producing just 40% of that, according to data from the U.S. Energy
   Department.
  
   Seems like a $2.2B 60% failure was not a very good investment. Maybe
   could have started off a bit smaller and only pissed away a bil or
 two?
   But it's only gummint money, so who's counting...
  
   --R
  
  
  
   On 6/18/15 5:14 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:
  
   MG via Mercedes wrote:
  
   BIG oops! 5kw. Though the 5mw system would be very nice to have if
 it
   was the same price. Then again I probably don't have the room for
 it. I
   have only 42 acres.
  
  
   Well, let's see. 5 square meters per kW, so about 25,000 square
 meters
   for 5 MW.
   Around 4000 square meters per acre, looks like you could easily fit
 5MW
   on ten acres. I wonder if you could get-r-done for $15 million?
  
   ___
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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-18 Thread archer75--- via Mercedes
The situation doesn't seem to be quite like you describe it, Grant:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power#Parabolic_trough

G Mann wrote:

 The solar focused mirror failure rate is very high.
 
 I know of two other large array projects which are equally poor at
 producing energy, yet equally successful at taking investor money..
 
 Private investment or Government subsidy are defined only by the speed with
 which investor money is vaporized.
 
 Practical application yields return on investment. Pie in the sky claims do
 not... Billions are now lost, along with the time to build these monsters
 and ultimately to dismantle them.
 
 On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
  I AM WRONG -- it's not gummint money, to my astoundment!
 
  --R
 
 
 
 
  On 6/18/15 5:48 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:
 
  There was an article
  http://www.wsj.com/articles/high-tech-solar-projects-fail-to-deliver-1434138485
  a coupla days ago about some huge project in Kollyfawnya, solar thermal
  set-up, that is only producing 40% of the design output due to unforeseen
  issues.
 
   The $2.2 billion Ivanpah solar power project in California’s Mojave
  Desert is supposed to be generating more than a million megawatt-hours of
  electricity each year. But 15 months after starting up, the plant is
  producing just 40% of that, according to data from the U.S. Energy
  Department.
 
  Seems like a $2.2B 60% failure was not a very good investment. Maybe
  could have started off a bit smaller and only pissed away a bil or two?
  But it's only gummint money, so who's counting...
 
  --R
 
 
 
  On 6/18/15 5:14 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:
 
  MG via Mercedes wrote:
 
  BIG oops! 5kw. Though the 5mw system would be very nice to have if it
  was the same price. Then again I probably don't have the room for it. I
  have only 42 acres.
 
 
  Well, let's see. 5 square meters per kW, so about 25,000 square meters
  for 5 MW.
  Around 4000 square meters per acre, looks like you could easily fit 5MW
  on ten acres. I wonder if you could get-r-done for $15 million?
 
  ___
  http://www.okiebenz.com
 
  To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
 
  To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
  http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
 
 
 
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  To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-18 Thread archer75--- via Mercedes
If you are only talking about return on investment, then that's generally true 
in the U.S., but the success and durability of such plants in producing 
electricity seems to be well proven. 

Spain has been in dire straits economically, and it has elected a conservative 
president. I suspect these are the reasons it isn't underwriting such projects.

My understanding is that such plants usually yield an efficiency of around 30%. 
An investor who bought in based on 60% efficiency probably wasn't doing his 
homework.

I think it's generally recognized that having multiple sources of domestic 
energy is of value to any nation. The government financed TVA dams and others 
certainly were when large amounts of additional electricity were needed before 
and during WW-2. 

Gerry


 

G Mann wrote:
 Ohh? Really?
 
 Show me the return on investment capital from product [energy] generated
 and sold.
 
 Lots of money spent.. very low return on investment.. so much so.. Spain
 has put a stop on further underwriting of projects, last I heard.
 
 If your point is, plants were built. Then yes.. they exist. The link lists
 them, nicely.
 
 My point is, those plants are not making design capacity or efficency,
 which was used to attract investors money.. a lot of it. It lacks delivery
 as advertised.. for what ever reason.
 
 Show me instead, quarterly profit reports for each of those plants, and
 capital investment return to the investors.
 
 
 On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 5:21 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
  The situation doesn't seem to be quite like you describe it, Grant:
 
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power#Parabolic_trough
 
  G Mann wrote:
 
   The solar focused mirror failure rate is very high.
  
   I know of two other large array projects which are equally poor at
   producing energy, yet equally successful at taking investor money..
  
   Private investment or Government subsidy are defined only by the speed
  with
   which investor money is vaporized.
  
   Practical application yields return on investment. Pie in the sky claims
  do
   not... Billions are now lost, along with the time to build these monsters
   and ultimately to dismantle them.
  
   On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
   mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
  
I AM WRONG -- it's not gummint money, to my astoundment!
   
--R
   
   
   
   
On 6/18/15 5:48 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:
   
There was an article
   
  http://www.wsj.com/articles/high-tech-solar-projects-fail-to-deliver-1434138485
a coupla days ago about some huge project in Kollyfawnya, solar
  thermal
set-up, that is only producing 40% of the design output due to
  unforeseen
issues.
   
 The $2.2 billion Ivanpah solar power project in California’s Mojave
Desert is supposed to be generating more than a million
  megawatt-hours of
electricity each year. But 15 months after starting up, the plant is
producing just 40% of that, according to data from the U.S. Energy
Department.
   
Seems like a $2.2B 60% failure was not a very good investment. Maybe
could have started off a bit smaller and only pissed away a bil or
  two?
But it's only gummint money, so who's counting...
   
--R
   
   
   
On 6/18/15 5:14 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:
   
MG via Mercedes wrote:
   
BIG oops! 5kw. Though the 5mw system would be very nice to have if
  it
was the same price. Then again I probably don't have the room for
  it. I
have only 42 acres.
   
   
Well, let's see. 5 square meters per kW, so about 25,000 square
  meters
for 5 MW.
Around 4000 square meters per acre, looks like you could easily fit
  5MW
on ten acres. I wonder if you could get-r-done for $15 million?
   
___
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To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-18 Thread MG via Mercedes
Yeabut where do I get $15 million? I'm not affiliated with any 
Gov dept or big company that can get Gov funding for it. And then 
there are all the trees I'll have to cut down since I'm not in 
the desert. Think of how many tree huggers will be out to get my 
head on a pike for that one.


Guess I'll just have to do without.

Manfred



Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 17:14:10 -0400
From: Mitch Haley mi...@mitchellhaley.com

Well, let's see. 5 square meters per kW, so about 25,000 square meters for 5 MW.
Around 4000 square meters per acre, looks like you could easily fit 5MW on ten 
acres. I wonder if you could get-r-done for $15 million?







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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-18 Thread G Mann via Mercedes
Attaboy!

Well said, and thank you.

That is the exact point I was attempting to drive to in terms of practical
use application.

Solar just isn't there, yet. If it ever will be remains to be developed at
some point in the future. If you live in one of the sunshine states, it is
costly, but practical, to cover the roof with solar panels into a grid tie
system. If you live in one of the perpetual winter states .. unlikely.

Solandra failed for good cause. Once the government tete dried up, the
corporate greed of management vaporized, the lack of substance became
visible... and it crashed.

Repeat as necessary until there are no more public funds available.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 5:15 AM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 The key point that I am trying to drive home is the limit on the amount of
 solar power available.  This is a hard limit: ~1000 watts/square meter is
 the peak under ideal conditions.  A more usable number is 200 watts during
 daytime, which takes into account average cloud cover and reduced energy
 reaching ground when the sun is low in the sky.

 By comparison, 1 gallon of diesel has the potential energy of 130,000
 BTU's.  200 watts of solar power is the equivalent of about 3400 BTU's /
 hour.  That ~40 order of magnatude difference is why we drive cars and
 trucks with internal combustion engines and why we don't have solar cars
 (or airplanes) that can do useful things.  Diesel has ~40 times more energy
 density than solar power, comparing one gallon of diesel to one square
 meter of solar energy.

 -
 Max
 Charleston SC

 On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:11 AM, fmiser via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com
 wrote:

As
  pointed out, even 100% efficiency from the panels would not
  be enough to sustain flight except at high noon in the
  tropics on a sunny day.
 
 
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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

2015-06-18 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU??

--R

On 6/18/15 12:46 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

On Mercedes content.. I just bought an 82 Diesel 300 Turbo CD needing total
restoration [see above for level of insanity required to take on such a
project] Arizona car, zero rust. zero body damage, paint and interior eaten
by AZ sun.

Looks like I now have to many Mercedes, but I've been looking for the
perfect CD for a long time. I plan a total strip to bare frame and
rebuild of all mechanical parts. It will never be a Gullwing, but Kaleb is
hiding the one from Havana from me.. ;))



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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

2015-06-18 Thread G Mann via Mercedes
Hi , my name is Grant and I'm addicted to Mercedes. I've tried to kick the
habit for 20 years now and can't seem to do it.. ;))

Anyone suggest a rehab clinic?  Preferably one with a good paint shop, and
body lifts?

There must be a Mercedes Annomous somewhere nearby where I can find
help.. hahahah

Here is a picture link of what I want to end up with when restoration is
complete... except for the color.. mine will be Mercedes Tundra Green with
the same interior color as this example.


http://www.californiaclassix.com/archive/85_MB_300CD_c318.html


On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU??

 --R

 On 6/18/15 12:46 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

 On Mercedes content.. I just bought an 82 Diesel 300 Turbo CD needing
 total
 restoration [see above for level of insanity required to take on such a
 project] Arizona car, zero rust. zero body damage, paint and interior
 eaten
 by AZ sun.

 Looks like I now have to many Mercedes, but I've been looking for the
 perfect CD for a long time. I plan a total strip to bare frame and
 rebuild of all mechanical parts. It will never be a Gullwing, but Kaleb is
 hiding the one from Havana from me.. ;))



 ___
 http://www.okiebenz.com

 To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

 To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
 http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com


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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-18 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
Icarus did pretty good until he flew too close to the sun...

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:10 PM, G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

 Attaboy!

 Well said, and thank you.

 That is the exact point I was attempting to drive to in terms of practical
 use application.

 Solar just isn't there, yet. If it ever will be remains to be developed at
 some point in the future. If you live in one of the sunshine states, it is
 costly, but practical, to cover the roof with solar panels into a grid tie
 system. If you live in one of the perpetual winter states .. unlikely.

 Solandra failed for good cause. Once the government tete dried up, the
 corporate greed of management vaporized, the lack of substance became
 visible... and it crashed.

 Repeat as necessary until there are no more public funds available.

 On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 5:15 AM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

  The key point that I am trying to drive home is the limit on the amount
 of
  solar power available.  This is a hard limit: ~1000 watts/square meter is
  the peak under ideal conditions.  A more usable number is 200 watts
 during
  daytime, which takes into account average cloud cover and reduced energy
  reaching ground when the sun is low in the sky.
 
  By comparison, 1 gallon of diesel has the potential energy of 130,000
  BTU's.  200 watts of solar power is the equivalent of about 3400 BTU's /
  hour.  That ~40 order of magnatude difference is why we drive cars and
  trucks with internal combustion engines and why we don't have solar cars
  (or airplanes) that can do useful things.  Diesel has ~40 times more
 energy
  density than solar power, comparing one gallon of diesel to one square
  meter of solar energy.
 
  -
  Max
  Charleston SC
 
  On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:11 AM, fmiser via Mercedes 
  mercedes@okiebenz.com
  wrote:
 
 As
   pointed out, even 100% efficiency from the panels would not
   be enough to sustain flight except at high noon in the
   tropics on a sunny day.
  
  
  ___
  http://www.okiebenz.com
 
  To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
 
  To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
  http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
 
 
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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

2015-06-18 Thread OK Don via Mercedes
Isn't this Mercedes Anonymous ??? We offer support and help . . .

We want before, during, and after photos of the restoration - - -


On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 1:30 PM, G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

 Hi , my name is Grant and I'm addicted to Mercedes. I've tried to kick the
 habit for 20 years now and can't seem to do it.. ;))

 There must be a Mercedes Annomous somewhere nearby where I can find
 help.. hahahah




-- 
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

2015-06-18 Thread G Mann via Mercedes
Certainly.. otherwise, my rehabilitation would not be complete.. hahaha

Photos will be coming as the project pulls together.. Currently I'm busy
erecting a 13,500 sq ft workshop.  Project will not start until that is up.

The car has been in outside storage for 2 + years so it looks pretty grim
at the moment.. not enough martha in the world to pull the present paint
back to presentable.. AZ sun is brutal.
Original leather interior cracks at touch it is so dry..
Nothing  and love can't fix.. right?

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 12:14 PM, OK Don via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 wrote:

 Isn't this Mercedes Anonymous ??? We offer support and help . . .

 We want before, during, and after photos of the restoration - - -


 On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 1:30 PM, G Mann via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com
 wrote:

  Hi , my name is Grant and I'm addicted to Mercedes. I've tried to kick
 the
  habit for 20 years now and can't seem to do it.. ;))
 
  There must be a Mercedes Annomous somewhere nearby where I can find
  help.. hahahah
 
 


 --
 OK Don

 NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

 *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
 our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

 There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
 learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
 for themselves.

 WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
 2013 F150, 18 mpg
 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
 ___
 http://www.okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

2015-06-18 Thread G Mann via Mercedes
I will hand make the new interior using the supply of vat dyed deer skin
[soft as a babies butt] leather which I have from the days when I bought
and sold executive aircraft and did custom interiors and finish on them to
the new buyers livery.

It was standard practice to always have a second set of leather dyed with
the vat stock, so that a seat could be recovered if damaged,and be a
perfect match, so I still have some reserve stock stored.

The feel and look will rival any that Mercedes produced, I'm sure.
The smell will be all leather .. [with just a touch of diesel for effect.
;) ]


On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 12:06 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 But will you install genuine, aromatic Italian ROSER leather or rich
 (fine, soft) Corinthian leather?

 --R


 On 6/18/15 2:30 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

 Hi , my name is Grant and I'm addicted to Mercedes. I've tried to kick the
 habit for 20 years now and can't seem to do it.. ;))

 Anyone suggest a rehab clinic?  Preferably one with a good paint shop, and
 body lifts?

 There must be a Mercedes Annomous somewhere nearby where I can find
 help.. hahahah

 Here is a picture link of what I want to end up with when restoration is
 complete... except for the color.. mine will be Mercedes Tundra Green with
 the same interior color as this example.


 http://www.californiaclassix.com/archive/85_MB_300CD_c318.html


 On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

  WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU??

 --R

 On 6/18/15 12:46 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

  On Mercedes content.. I just bought an 82 Diesel 300 Turbo CD needing
 total
 restoration [see above for level of insanity required to take on such a
 project] Arizona car, zero rust. zero body damage, paint and interior
 eaten
 by AZ sun.

 Looks like I now have to many Mercedes, but I've been looking for the
 perfect CD for a long time. I plan a total strip to bare frame and
 rebuild of all mechanical parts. It will never be a Gullwing, but Kaleb
 is
 hiding the one from Havana from me.. ;))


 ___
 http://www.okiebenz.com

 To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

 To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
 http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com


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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

2015-06-18 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
Send us a sample of tundra green, or a link if you prefer.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:30 PM, G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

 Hi , my name is Grant and I'm addicted to Mercedes. I've tried to kick the
 habit for 20 years now and can't seem to do it.. ;))

 Anyone suggest a rehab clinic?  Preferably one with a good paint shop, and
 body lifts?

 There must be a Mercedes Annomous somewhere nearby where I can find
 help.. hahahah

 Here is a picture link of what I want to end up with when restoration is
 complete... except for the color.. mine will be Mercedes Tundra Green with
 the same interior color as this example.


 http://www.californiaclassix.com/archive/85_MB_300CD_c318.html


 On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

  WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU??
 
  --R
 
  On 6/18/15 12:46 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:
 
  On Mercedes content.. I just bought an 82 Diesel 300 Turbo CD needing
  total
  restoration [see above for level of insanity required to take on such a
  project] Arizona car, zero rust. zero body damage, paint and interior
  eaten
  by AZ sun.
 
  Looks like I now have to many Mercedes, but I've been looking for the
  perfect CD for a long time. I plan a total strip to bare frame and
  rebuild of all mechanical parts. It will never be a Gullwing, but Kaleb
 is
  hiding the one from Havana from me.. ;))
 
 
 
  ___
  http://www.okiebenz.com
 
  To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
 
  To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
  http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
 
 
 ___
 http://www.okiebenz.com

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 To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
 http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com


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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

2015-06-18 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes
But will you install genuine, aromatic Italian ROSER leather or rich 
(fine, soft) Corinthian leather?


--R

On 6/18/15 2:30 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

Hi , my name is Grant and I'm addicted to Mercedes. I've tried to kick the
habit for 20 years now and can't seem to do it.. ;))

Anyone suggest a rehab clinic?  Preferably one with a good paint shop, and
body lifts?

There must be a Mercedes Annomous somewhere nearby where I can find
help.. hahahah

Here is a picture link of what I want to end up with when restoration is
complete... except for the color.. mine will be Mercedes Tundra Green with
the same interior color as this example.


http://www.californiaclassix.com/archive/85_MB_300CD_c318.html


On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:


WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU??

--R

On 6/18/15 12:46 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:


On Mercedes content.. I just bought an 82 Diesel 300 Turbo CD needing
total
restoration [see above for level of insanity required to take on such a
project] Arizona car, zero rust. zero body damage, paint and interior
eaten
by AZ sun.

Looks like I now have to many Mercedes, but I've been looking for the
perfect CD for a long time. I plan a total strip to bare frame and
rebuild of all mechanical parts. It will never be a Gullwing, but Kaleb is
hiding the one from Havana from me.. ;))



___
http://www.okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-18 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes

MG via Mercedes wrote:
BIG oops! 5kw. Though the 5mw system would be very nice to have if it 
was the same price. Then again I probably don't have the room for it. I 
have only 42 acres.


Well, let's see. 5 square meters per kW, so about 25,000 square meters for 5 MW.
Around 4000 square meters per acre, looks like you could easily fit 5MW on ten 
acres. I wonder if you could get-r-done for $15 million?


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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-18 Thread Randy Bennell via Mercedes

On 18/06/2015 4:14 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

MG via Mercedes wrote:
BIG oops! 5kw. Though the 5mw system would be very nice to have if it 
was the same price. Then again I probably don't have the room for it. 
I have only 42 acres.


Well, let's see. 5 square meters per kW, so about 25,000 square meters 
for 5 MW.
Around 4000 square meters per acre, looks like you could easily fit 
5MW on ten acres. I wonder if you could get-r-done for $15 million?


___

AND what would it cost to ensure against hail damage? (or wind etc?)

RB

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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

2015-06-18 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
That's a pretty scarce color.  Why?

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 3:23 PM, G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

 Certainly.. otherwise, my rehabilitation would not be complete.. hahaha

 Photos will be coming as the project pulls together.. Currently I'm busy
 erecting a 13,500 sq ft workshop.  Project will not start until that is up.

 The car has been in outside storage for 2 + years so it looks pretty grim
 at the moment.. not enough martha in the world to pull the present paint
 back to presentable.. AZ sun is brutal.
 Original leather interior cracks at touch it is so dry..
 Nothing  and love can't fix.. right?

 On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 12:14 PM, OK Don via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com
  wrote:

  Isn't this Mercedes Anonymous ??? We offer support and help . . .
 
  We want before, during, and after photos of the restoration - - -
 
 
  On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 1:30 PM, G Mann via Mercedes 
  mercedes@okiebenz.com
  wrote:
 
   Hi , my name is Grant and I'm addicted to Mercedes. I've tried to kick
  the
   habit for 20 years now and can't seem to do it.. ;))
  
   There must be a Mercedes Annomous somewhere nearby where I can find
   help.. hahahah
  
  
 
 
  --
  OK Don
 
  NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!
 
  *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many
 of
  our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain
 
  There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few
 who
  learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
  for themselves.
 
  WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
  2013 F150, 18 mpg
  2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
  1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
  ___
  http://www.okiebenz.com
 
  To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
 
  To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
  http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
 
 
 ___
 http://www.okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-18 Thread G Mann via Mercedes
The solar focused mirror failure rate is very high.

I know of two other large array projects which are equally poor at
producing energy, yet equally successful at taking investor money..

Private investment or Government subsidy are defined only by the speed with
which investor money is vaporized.

Practical application yields return on investment. Pie in the sky claims do
not... Billions are now lost, along with the time to build these monsters
and ultimately to dismantle them.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 I AM WRONG -- it's not gummint money, to my astoundment!

 --R




 On 6/18/15 5:48 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:

 There was an article
 http://www.wsj.com/articles/high-tech-solar-projects-fail-to-deliver-1434138485
 a coupla days ago about some huge project in Kollyfawnya, solar thermal
 set-up, that is only producing 40% of the design output due to unforeseen
 issues.

  The $2.2 billion Ivanpah solar power project in California’s Mojave
 Desert is supposed to be generating more than a million megawatt-hours of
 electricity each year. But 15 months after starting up, the plant is
 producing just 40% of that, according to data from the U.S. Energy
 Department.

 Seems like a $2.2B 60% failure was not a very good investment. Maybe
 could have started off a bit smaller and only pissed away a bil or two?
 But it's only gummint money, so who's counting...

 --R



 On 6/18/15 5:14 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

 MG via Mercedes wrote:

 BIG oops! 5kw. Though the 5mw system would be very nice to have if it
 was the same price. Then again I probably don't have the room for it. I
 have only 42 acres.


 Well, let's see. 5 square meters per kW, so about 25,000 square meters
 for 5 MW.
 Around 4000 square meters per acre, looks like you could easily fit 5MW
 on ten acres. I wonder if you could get-r-done for $15 million?

 ___
 http://www.okiebenz.com

 To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

 To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
 http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com



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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-18 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes
There was an article 
http://www.wsj.com/articles/high-tech-solar-projects-fail-to-deliver-1434138485 
a coupla days ago about some huge project in Kollyfawnya, solar thermal 
set-up, that is only producing 40% of the design output due to 
unforeseen issues.


 The $2.2 billion Ivanpah solar power project in California’s Mojave 
Desert is supposed to be generating more than a million megawatt-hours 
of electricity each year. But 15 months after starting up, the plant is 
producing just 40% of that, according to data from the U.S. Energy 
Department.


Seems like a $2.2B 60% failure was not a very good investment. Maybe 
could have started off a bit smaller and only pissed away a bil or two?  
But it's only gummint money, so who's counting...


--R



On 6/18/15 5:14 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

MG via Mercedes wrote:
BIG oops! 5kw. Though the 5mw system would be very nice to have if it 
was the same price. Then again I probably don't have the room for it. 
I have only 42 acres.


Well, let's see. 5 square meters per kW, so about 25,000 square meters 
for 5 MW.
Around 4000 square meters per acre, looks like you could easily fit 
5MW on ten acres. I wonder if you could get-r-done for $15 million?


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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-18 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes

I AM WRONG -- it's not gummint money, to my astoundment!

--R



On 6/18/15 5:48 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:
There was an article 
http://www.wsj.com/articles/high-tech-solar-projects-fail-to-deliver-1434138485 
a coupla days ago about some huge project in Kollyfawnya, solar 
thermal set-up, that is only producing 40% of the design output due to 
unforeseen issues.


 The $2.2 billion Ivanpah solar power project in California’s Mojave 
Desert is supposed to be generating more than a million megawatt-hours 
of electricity each year. But 15 months after starting up, the plant 
is producing just 40% of that, according to data from the U.S. Energy 
Department.


Seems like a $2.2B 60% failure was not a very good investment. Maybe 
could have started off a bit smaller and only pissed away a bil or 
two?  But it's only gummint money, so who's counting...


--R



On 6/18/15 5:14 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

MG via Mercedes wrote:
BIG oops! 5kw. Though the 5mw system would be very nice to have if 
it was the same price. Then again I probably don't have the room for 
it. I have only 42 acres.


Well, let's see. 5 square meters per kW, so about 25,000 square 
meters for 5 MW.
Around 4000 square meters per acre, looks like you could easily fit 
5MW on ten acres. I wonder if you could get-r-done for $15 million?


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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

2015-06-18 Thread WILTON via Mercedes

Yep.  Know how to hurt a guy, donchya?

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com

To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars



Hi , my name is Grant and I'm addicted to Mercedes. I've tried to kick the
habit for 20 years now and can't seem to do it.. ;))

Anyone suggest a rehab clinic?  Preferably one with a good paint shop, and
body lifts?

There must be a Mercedes Annomous somewhere nearby where I can find
help.. hahahah

Here is a picture link of what I want to end up with when restoration is
complete... except for the color.. mine will be Mercedes Tundra Green with
the same interior color as this example.


http://www.californiaclassix.com/archive/85_MB_300CD_c318.html


On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:


WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU??

--R

On 6/18/15 12:46 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:


On Mercedes content.. I just bought an 82 Diesel 300 Turbo CD needing
total
restoration [see above for level of insanity required to take on such a
project] Arizona car, zero rust. zero body damage, paint and interior
eaten
by AZ sun.

Looks like I now have to many Mercedes, but I've been looking for the
perfect CD for a long time. I plan a total strip to bare frame and
rebuild of all mechanical parts. It will never be a Gullwing, but Kaleb 
is

hiding the one from Havana from me.. ;))




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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-18 Thread fmiser via Mercedes
  G Mann wrote:
   
  I do raise arguement with the segment of thinking that
  leaps forward with the assumption it is a finished and
  practical appliction product accepted by public use.
 
  It's not there yet.. it's not even close, yet.. Perhaps,
  but not yet.

 Andrew wrote:
 
 Grant, I can just see you watching the Wright Brothers lift
 off, saying they will never be able to compete with trains
 - that silly contraption can only carry one or at most two
 men

*chuckle*  The comparison might look similar at a casual
glance - but really it's not.  For the Wrights - and other
early flier - the challenge was on many fronts.
Aerodynamics, engines, control surfaces, user interface,
etc.  

With this current solar airplane, there is nothing new
with the airframe, or the motors, or the user interface, or
the control surfaces.  It is a balance between battery
capacity vs. weight vs. photovoltaic (PV) panel output.  As
pointed out, even 100% efficiency from the panels would not
be enough to sustain flight except at high noon in the
tropics on a sunny day.  

With well over 100 years of development, there's a very low
probability that electric motor efficiency will be able to
increase much.  Tiny bits here and there, but unless someone
finds room temperature superconductors we can't expect much
change from the motor.

Same with the airframe drag.  More than 100 years of study,
expanding from the kite that the Wrights and Whitehead flew
to the supersonic and high-altitude aircraft, and many
points in between, suggest there's little hope of getting
lift with less drag.

Batteries have a lot of potential for advancement - but that
won't _sustain_ flight.  Charge 'em to make a flight - yes.
But I understood the claim to be that PV alone would be
enough.

So those PV panels will _never_ be 100% efficient.  I dream
of the day when maybe, just maybe they will top 60%.  It's
probably a pipe dream just as much as a 200 MPG carburetor
was in the 1970's. (which, by the way, would require the
engine to be something like 250% efficient...)

So I'm with Grant.  Physics rules.  Even if a fellow doesn't
understand physics, he still can't violate those laws
regardless of what Congress does!

I expect major improvement in electric storage technology,
and hope that I might live to see a rugged 30% efficient PV
panel.  But even then,  our transportation machines require
more energy than they can collect from the sun in transit.

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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread Meade Dillon via Mercedes
Looks like the pure solar plane hasn't made it yet, can't seem to get the
weather to cooperate



-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com
wrote:

 What about the pure solar plane flying around the globe - as we speak?


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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread Meade Dillon via Mercedes
Please tell us the amount of power (kilowatts) in a square meter of
sunlight at sea level.  Now compare that to the amount of power required to
fly an airplane, and the square meters of wing surface on the upper wings
of the subject airplane.  A little simple math, fill in some reasonable
estimates for missing information, and I think you will begin to see that
even if solar panels reach 100% efficiency, they still won't work...

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 I beg to differ.  Solar panel efficiencies are climbing relentlessly while
 the manufacturing cost continues to decline.


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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
I beg to differ.  Solar panel efficiencies are climbing relentlessly while
the manufacturing cost continues to decline.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:38 PM, WILTON via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

 Amen.

 People still trying to get something for/from nothing (or more out of it
 than goes into it).  Physics is still physics, and it'll work EVERY time.

 Wilton

 - Original Message - From: G Mann via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Cc: G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com
 Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 1:24 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane



  I am troubled by the ongoing fantasy that an array of solar panels on the
 wings would recharge and power the airplane. Or an electric car.

 That fantasy seems to be driven by a direct disconnect from reality, which
 in turn, seems driven by the belief that all electricity comes out of a
 grid socket and is instantly available and instantly transfers full charge
 to the battery bank.

 It simply does not work that way. PV panels absorb energy from the sun,
 then produce electricity at a relativly low conversion rate [even the
 highest tech panels yield only about 16% ]...

 Sorry to rain you your private parade. The reality gap between dream and
 production is a wide one, on the same scale as the ancient alchemist who
 believed there was a simple formula to convert lead to gold..
 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 9:29 AM, OK Don via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com
 wrote:

  It's certainly not the worlds first, Yuneec flew one in 2009 - - -
 according to the Telegraph: The aircraft manufacturer has unveiled the
 world's first plug-in plane at the Paris Air Show.



 http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/exclusivevids/ExclusiveVideo_YuneecE430_ElectricAirplane_FirstFlight_200617-1.html

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwyyQ1BckK0


 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

  All they need is a solar PV charging station...
 
  On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:12 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
  mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 
 


 --
 OK Don

 NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

 *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many
 of
 our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

 There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few
 who
 learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
 for themselves.

 WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
 2013 F150, 18 mpg
 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread G Mann via Mercedes
Reality is such a harsh mistress..



On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 Looks like the pure solar plane hasn't made it yet, can't seem to get the
 weather to cooperate



 -
 Max
 Charleston SC

 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  What about the pure solar plane flying around the globe - as we speak?
 
 
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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
What about the pure solar plane flying around the globe - as we speak?

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 Please tell us the amount of power (kilowatts) in a square meter of
 sunlight at sea level.  Now compare that to the amount of power required to
 fly an airplane, and the square meters of wing surface on the upper wings
 of the subject airplane.  A little simple math, fill in some reasonable
 estimates for missing information, and I think you will begin to see that
 even if solar panels reach 100% efficiency, they still won't work...

 -
 Max
 Charleston SC

 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

  I beg to differ.  Solar panel efficiencies are climbing relentlessly
 while
  the manufacturing cost continues to decline.
 
 
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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread Meade Dillon via Mercedes
Believing that CO2 is a greenhouse gas REQUIRES one to not believe in
physics, so it is no surprise at all that AGW believers also think that
solar is a viable option for transportation.

http://www.kusi.com/story/19600263/why-man-made-global-warming-is-ridiculous
-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:38 PM, WILTON via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

 Amen.

 People still trying to get something for/from nothing (or more out of it
 than goes into it).  Physics is still physics, and it'll work EVERY time.

 Wilton

 -

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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread G Mann via Mercedes
And. The useful load for that Experimental category airplane is 

Zero passengers.. Zero cargo.. but.. It is able to travel at almost 80
MPH... most days when the sun shines... for a while

Soon... your majesty.. very soon... I'll be able to turn lead into gold and
you will be incredibly rich.. I do need just a little more equipment and
funding

Reality surely sucks, doesn't it..

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 What about the pure solar plane flying around the globe - as we speak?

 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

  Please tell us the amount of power (kilowatts) in a square meter of
  sunlight at sea level.  Now compare that to the amount of power required
 to
  fly an airplane, and the square meters of wing surface on the upper wings
  of the subject airplane.  A little simple math, fill in some reasonable
  estimates for missing information, and I think you will begin to see that
  even if solar panels reach 100% efficiency, they still won't work...
 
  -
  Max
  Charleston SC
 
  On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
  mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
   I beg to differ.  Solar panel efficiencies are climbing relentlessly
  while
   the manufacturing cost continues to decline.
  
  
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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread WILTON via Mercedes
Like I said, Physics'll work EVERY time.  It's gotcha right by the 
ying-yang, and not lightly - it's always squeezin'.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: Meade Dillon via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com

To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: Meade Dillon dillonm...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane



I'm going to answer my own question, as I think Andrew either won't or
can't.

The subject plane's wingspan is 9.5 meters, let's say we'll be able to fit
12 square meters of PV cells.

When it is summer and the sun is shining, and it is shining directly down
(local apparent noon), about 1000 watts per square meter reach the earth.

So the maximum amount of power available for the PV cells to absorb is
12,000 watts, under exactly the right conditions.

The subject plane has two engines, 30,000 watts each, so it requires 
60,000

watts to fly.  100% efficient PV cells won't do it.  What is the current
state of the art, 35% efficient?

Solar won't get you there, unless you can violate the laws of physics.

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Meade Dillon dillonm...@gmail.com 
wrote:



Please tell us the amount of power (kilowatts) in a square meter of
sunlight at sea level.  Now compare that to the amount of power required 
to

fly an airplane, and the square meters of wing surface on the upper wings
of the subject airplane.  A little simple math, fill in some reasonable
estimates for missing information, and I think you will begin to see that
even if solar panels reach 100% efficiency, they still won't work...

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

I beg to differ.  Solar panel efficiencies are climbing relentlessly 
while

the manufacturing cost continues to decline.





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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

2015-06-17 Thread Mountain Man via Mercedes
Max wrote:
 I'm with you on the nuke plants, not so much the electric cars.

None of it works.
We will pollute ourselves in to oblivion.
Read the Pope Encyclical on pollution, greed.
Ain't a thing to be done.  Call it AGW or what have you - we either
retreat to stone age or die polluted.
Ain't that real fisiks?
...or, maybe it is christianity...
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

2015-06-17 Thread Max Dillon via Mercedes
I'm with you on the nuke plants, not so much the electric cars.  Ridding the 
world of coal fired power plants would be a great thing, but there is so much 
oil and gas in the ground that internal combustion transportation will be very 
economical for decades and maybe centuries to come.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On June 17, 2015 5:30:42 PM EDT, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
Actually, I am thinking that building more base-load nukes and having 
distributed batteries (including in charging cars at night) around so 
that more baseload plants can keep cranking at a steady efficient pace 
around the clock, then dumping that power back into the grid or your 
building/office/whatever during high demand or using it in a car, would

make some sense, while also having chemical power in a hybrid mode.

--R



On 6/17/15 5:17 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:
 Solar powered practical electric vehicle.. Fantasy.

 Oil powered practical internal combustion vehicle ... Reality.

 Any further questions?

 Thanks you for sharing your fantasies with us Andrew ...
 By all means.. follow your dreams.. some day, lead may become gold by
the
 principles of magic..


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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread MG via Mercedes
Agree with all you said except the 16% part. The newest Sunpower 
x-21 series panels have an efficiency of 21.5%. Still not much 
better but over the life of the panels could give up to 75% more 
power then the 16% units, according to the manufacturer.


Not really germane to what you were saying, but I did find it 
interesting when investigating for an upcoming 5000kw system 
purchase.


Manfred


Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 10:24:18 -0700
From: G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com

It simply does not work that way. PV panels absorb energy from 
the sun,

then produce electricity at a relativly low conversion rate [even the
highest tech panels yield only about 16% ]...

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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread G Mann via Mercedes
Solar powered practical electric vehicle.. Fantasy.

Oil powered practical internal combustion vehicle ... Reality.

Any further questions?

Thanks you for sharing your fantasies with us Andrew ...
By all means.. follow your dreams.. some day, lead may become gold by the
principles of magic..

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:50 PM, WILTON via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 wrote:

 Like I said, Physics'll work EVERY time.  It's gotcha right by the
 ying-yang, and not lightly - it's always squeezin'.

 Wilton

 - Original Message - From: Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Cc: Meade Dillon dillonm...@gmail.com
 Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 2:15 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane


  I'm going to answer my own question, as I think Andrew either won't or
 can't.

 The subject plane's wingspan is 9.5 meters, let's say we'll be able to fit
 12 square meters of PV cells.

 When it is summer and the sun is shining, and it is shining directly down
 (local apparent noon), about 1000 watts per square meter reach the earth.

 So the maximum amount of power available for the PV cells to absorb is
 12,000 watts, under exactly the right conditions.

 The subject plane has two engines, 30,000 watts each, so it requires
 60,000
 watts to fly.  100% efficient PV cells won't do it.  What is the current
 state of the art, 35% efficient?

 Solar won't get you there, unless you can violate the laws of physics.

 -
 Max
 Charleston SC

 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Meade Dillon dillonm...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Please tell us the amount of power (kilowatts) in a square meter of
 sunlight at sea level.  Now compare that to the amount of power required
 to
 fly an airplane, and the square meters of wing surface on the upper wings
 of the subject airplane.  A little simple math, fill in some reasonable
 estimates for missing information, and I think you will begin to see that
 even if solar panels reach 100% efficiency, they still won't work...

 -
 Max
 Charleston SC

 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

  I beg to differ.  Solar panel efficiencies are climbing relentlessly
 while
 the manufacturing cost continues to decline.



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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread Meade Dillon via Mercedes
I'm going to answer my own question, as I think Andrew either won't or
can't.

The subject plane's wingspan is 9.5 meters, let's say we'll be able to fit
12 square meters of PV cells.

When it is summer and the sun is shining, and it is shining directly down
(local apparent noon), about 1000 watts per square meter reach the earth.

So the maximum amount of power available for the PV cells to absorb is
12,000 watts, under exactly the right conditions.

The subject plane has two engines, 30,000 watts each, so it requires 60,000
watts to fly.  100% efficient PV cells won't do it.  What is the current
state of the art, 35% efficient?

Solar won't get you there, unless you can violate the laws of physics.

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Meade Dillon dillonm...@gmail.com wrote:

 Please tell us the amount of power (kilowatts) in a square meter of
 sunlight at sea level.  Now compare that to the amount of power required to
 fly an airplane, and the square meters of wing surface on the upper wings
 of the subject airplane.  A little simple math, fill in some reasonable
 estimates for missing information, and I think you will begin to see that
 even if solar panels reach 100% efficiency, they still won't work...

 -
 Max
 Charleston SC

 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 I beg to differ.  Solar panel efficiencies are climbing relentlessly while
 the manufacturing cost continues to decline.



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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread archer75--- via Mercedes


On Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:04:35 -0400
Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 What about the pure solar plane flying around the globe - as we speak?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/25/business/energy-environment/swiss-pilots-to-fly-solar-plane-around-world.html?_r=0
 
 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
  Please tell us the amount of power (kilowatts) in a square meter of
  sunlight at sea level.  Now compare that to the amount of power required to
  fly an airplane, and the square meters of wing surface on the upper wings
  of the subject airplane.  A little simple math, fill in some reasonable
  estimates for missing information, and I think you will begin to see that
  even if solar panels reach 100% efficiency, they still won't work...
 
  -
  Max
  Charleston SC
 
  On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
  mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
   I beg to differ.  Solar panel efficiencies are climbing relentlessly
  while
   the manufacturing cost continues to decline.
  
  
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-- 
arche...@embarqmail.com arche...@embarqmail.com

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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

2015-06-17 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes
Actually, I am thinking that building more base-load nukes and having 
distributed batteries (including in charging cars at night) around so 
that more baseload plants can keep cranking at a steady efficient pace 
around the clock, then dumping that power back into the grid or your 
building/office/whatever during high demand or using it in a car, would 
make some sense, while also having chemical power in a hybrid mode.


--R



On 6/17/15 5:17 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

Solar powered practical electric vehicle.. Fantasy.

Oil powered practical internal combustion vehicle ... Reality.

Any further questions?

Thanks you for sharing your fantasies with us Andrew ...
By all means.. follow your dreams.. some day, lead may become gold by the
principles of magic..



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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

2015-06-17 Thread Meade Dillon via Mercedes
My view on the Pope's encyclical: he's just alienated a significant portion
of his flock by moving into the political / AGW-religion arena.  A few
years ago, many protestants were considering converting to Catholicism due
to the infiltration of leftists / wackos / LBGT movement that was totally
perverting many American churches.  Seemed like the catholics were going to
hold the line against all that nonsense, and were finally dealing with the
priests that assaulted/abused young boys, so maybe that would be a refuge
of sorts.  Now I fear many of those are quite disappointed in the new
direction this Pope has taken.

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Mountain Man via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:


 None of it works.
 We will pollute ourselves in to oblivion.
 Read the Pope Encyclical on pollution, greed.
 Ain't a thing to be done.  Call it AGW or what have you - we either
 retreat to stone age or die polluted.
 Ain't that real fisiks?
 ...or, maybe it is christianity...
 mao

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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

2015-06-17 Thread Mountain Man via Mercedes
Max wrote:
 My view on the Pope's encyclical...

This is hard to figure.
Something afoot but hard to see what is happening regarding AGW, etc
and then too the LBGT stuff you mention also.
Tough times for religion and science...
Either way, pollution and our ways will not cease, so...
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
Grant, I can just see you watching the Wright Brothers lift off, saying
they will never be able to compete with trains - that silly contraption
can only carry one or at most two men

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 10:24 PM, G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 wrote:

 I raise no arguement with experimentation and exploration what so ever.

 I do raise arguement with the segment of thinking that leaps forward with
 the assumption it is a finished and practical appliction product accepted
 by public use.

 It's not there yet.. it's not even close, yet.. Perhaps, but not yet.

 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:07 PM, OK Don via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com
 wrote:

  Solar Impulse 2 (stuck in China last I heard waiting for enough good
  weather to cross the Pacific Ocean at 35 mph): with a massive 263-foot
  wingspan, the same as a Boeing 747. Yet even with that massive wingspan
  loaded with more than 17,000 monocrystalline silicon solar cells, and
 more
  than 2,000 pounds worth of lithium-ion batteries, the entire plane weighs
  in at just over 5,000 pounds. This allows the 17.5 horsepower to push the
  Solar Impulse 2 along at a maximum speed of… 35 MPH.
 
  Now, there was a time when most people scoffed at the idea of a home
  computer, and what would you do with one any way? A digital camera that
  would fit inside a portable phone? Impossible, or at least not good
 enough
  to use! Just because we can't see how it can be done now, doesn't mean
 that
  it's not possible, just that we don't know how - yet.
 
 
  On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:08 PM, G Mann via Mercedes 
  mercedes@okiebenz.com
  wrote:
 
   And. The useful load for that Experimental category airplane is
 
  
   Zero passengers.. Zero cargo.. but.. It is able to travel at almost 80
   MPH... most days when the sun shines... for a while
  
   Soon... your majesty.. very soon... I'll be able to turn lead into gold
  and
   you will be incredibly rich.. I do need just a little more equipment
 and
   funding
  
   Reality surely sucks, doesn't it..
  
   On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
   mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
  
What about the pure solar plane flying around the globe - as we
 speak?
   
  
 
 
 
  --
  OK Don
 
  NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!
 
  *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many
 of
  our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain
 
  There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few
 who
  learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
  for themselves.
 
  WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
  2013 F150, 18 mpg
  2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
  1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
  ___
  http://www.okiebenz.com
 
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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread Scott Ritchey via Mercedes
Actually, several parties flew before the Wrights.  The problem the Wrights 
solved was how to turn.

 -Original Message-
 From:  Rich  Thomas via Mercedes
 Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 11:01 PM
 
 The Wright brothers were not constrained by physics, they were liberated by
 physics. Their insights were a glimpse into a whole new world of physical
 reality., and they were among the first.
 
 --R (sent from my miniPad)
 


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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread Jim Cathey via Mercedes

investigating for an upcoming 5000kw system purchase.


5MW?  That's pretty big!

There's a lot to be said for a mobile fleet of accumulators.
If you use the accumulator to drive off, it's less likely that
the juice would have been needed where it was parked anyway.

Even if you don't go anywhere, your car is still working!

Wind and solar could charge, as available, with nukes (etc.) picking
up the slack.  The fleet handles the leveling chores, the fully
controllable plants handle the trends.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread OK Don via Mercedes
More detail, if you're interested -

*General characteristics*

   - *Crew:* 1
   - *Length:* 22.4 m (73.5 ft)
   - *Wingspan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingspan:* 71.9 m (236 ft)
   - *Height:* 6.37 m (20.9 ft)
   - *Wing area:* 17,248 photovoltaic cells cover the top of the wings,
   fuselage and tailplane for a total area of 269.5 m2 (rated at 66 kW peak)
   - *Loaded weight:* 2,300 kg (5,100 lb)
   - *Powerplant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_engine:* 4 ×
   electric motors powered from solar cells and 4 x 41 kWh lithium-ion
   batteries (633 kg), providing 13 kW[20]
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Impulse#cite_note-Lipsey-20,
   electric motors (17.4 HP) each
   - *Propeller diameter:* 4 m (13.1 ft)
   - *Take-off speed:* 20 kts (36 km/h)

*Performance*

   - *Maximum speed
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_speeds#Regulatory_V-speeds:* 77 kts
   (140 km/h) 87 mph
   - *Cruise speed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_speeds#Vc:* 49 kts (90
   km/h) (33 kts (60 km/h) at night to save power)
   - *Service ceiling
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceiling_(aeronautics):* 8,500 m (27,900
   ft) with a maximum altitude of 12,000 metres (39,000 ft)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Impulse

It was in Japan in the last report I read, still waiting for weather to
cooperate so they can fly to Hawaii .

OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread Jim Cathey via Mercedes

so it requires 60,000 watts to fly.


Maybe to take off, but typical cruise power is more relevant to
how practical the system is.  I still bet it isn't good enough!

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes
The Wright brothers were not constrained by physics, they were liberated by 
physics. Their insights were a glimpse into a whole new world of physical 
reality., and they were among the first. 

--R (sent from my miniPad)

On Jun 17, 2015, at 10:31 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

Grant, I can just see you watching the Wright Brothers lift off, saying
they will never be able to compete with trains - that silly contraption
can only carry one or at most two men

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 10:24 PM, G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 wrote:

 I raise no arguement with experimentation and exploration what so ever.
 
 I do raise arguement with the segment of thinking that leaps forward with
 the assumption it is a finished and practical appliction product accepted
 by public use.
 
 It's not there yet.. it's not even close, yet.. Perhaps, but not yet.
 
 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:07 PM, OK Don via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com
 wrote:
 
 Solar Impulse 2 (stuck in China last I heard waiting for enough good
 weather to cross the Pacific Ocean at 35 mph): with a massive 263-foot
 wingspan, the same as a Boeing 747. Yet even with that massive wingspan
 loaded with more than 17,000 monocrystalline silicon solar cells, and
 more
 than 2,000 pounds worth of lithium-ion batteries, the entire plane weighs
 in at just over 5,000 pounds. This allows the 17.5 horsepower to push the
 Solar Impulse 2 along at a maximum speed of… 35 MPH.
 
 Now, there was a time when most people scoffed at the idea of a home
 computer, and what would you do with one any way? A digital camera that
 would fit inside a portable phone? Impossible, or at least not good
 enough
 to use! Just because we can't see how it can be done now, doesn't mean
 that
 it's not possible, just that we don't know how - yet.
 
 
 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:08 PM, G Mann via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com
 wrote:
 
 And. The useful load for that Experimental category airplane is
 
 
 Zero passengers.. Zero cargo.. but.. It is able to travel at almost 80
 MPH... most days when the sun shines... for a while
 
 Soon... your majesty.. very soon... I'll be able to turn lead into gold
 and
 you will be incredibly rich.. I do need just a little more equipment
 and
 funding
 
 Reality surely sucks, doesn't it..
 
 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

2015-06-17 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
What's a good Catholic like Bush and Rubio - trapped by right wing
ideology- to do?  Squirm, I guess.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 10:21 PM, Mountain Man via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 Max wrote:
  My view on the Pope's encyclical...

 This is hard to figure.
 Something afoot but hard to see what is happening regarding AGW, etc
 and then too the LBGT stuff you mention also.
 Tough times for religion and science...
 Either way, pollution and our ways will not cease, so...
 mao

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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread OK Don via Mercedes
On the other hand, there have been a LOT of promising technologies that
challenged existing physics, and lost. Cold fusion anyone?

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 9:31 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 Grant, I can just see you watching the Wright Brothers lift off, saying
 they will never be able to compete with trains - that silly contraption
 can only carry one or at most two men




-- 
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane or Nukular cars

2015-06-17 Thread OK Don via Mercedes
What most religious people do - ignore that parts that they don't want to
obey/believe.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 9:28 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 What's a good Catholic like Bush and Rubio - trapped by right wing
 ideology- to do?  Squirm, I guess.




-- 
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread OK Don via Mercedes
Solar Impulse 2 (stuck in China last I heard waiting for enough good
weather to cross the Pacific Ocean at 35 mph): with a massive 263-foot
wingspan, the same as a Boeing 747. Yet even with that massive wingspan
loaded with more than 17,000 monocrystalline silicon solar cells, and more
than 2,000 pounds worth of lithium-ion batteries, the entire plane weighs
in at just over 5,000 pounds. This allows the 17.5 horsepower to push the
Solar Impulse 2 along at a maximum speed of… 35 MPH.

Now, there was a time when most people scoffed at the idea of a home
computer, and what would you do with one any way? A digital camera that
would fit inside a portable phone? Impossible, or at least not good enough
to use! Just because we can't see how it can be done now, doesn't mean that
it's not possible, just that we don't know how - yet.


On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:08 PM, G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

 And. The useful load for that Experimental category airplane is 

 Zero passengers.. Zero cargo.. but.. It is able to travel at almost 80
 MPH... most days when the sun shines... for a while

 Soon... your majesty.. very soon... I'll be able to turn lead into gold and
 you will be incredibly rich.. I do need just a little more equipment and
 funding

 Reality surely sucks, doesn't it..

 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

  What about the pure solar plane flying around the globe - as we speak?
 




-- 
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com



Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread G Mann via Mercedes
I raise no arguement with experimentation and exploration what so ever.

I do raise arguement with the segment of thinking that leaps forward with
the assumption it is a finished and practical appliction product accepted
by public use.

It's not there yet.. it's not even close, yet.. Perhaps, but not yet.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:07 PM, OK Don via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

 Solar Impulse 2 (stuck in China last I heard waiting for enough good
 weather to cross the Pacific Ocean at 35 mph): with a massive 263-foot
 wingspan, the same as a Boeing 747. Yet even with that massive wingspan
 loaded with more than 17,000 monocrystalline silicon solar cells, and more
 than 2,000 pounds worth of lithium-ion batteries, the entire plane weighs
 in at just over 5,000 pounds. This allows the 17.5 horsepower to push the
 Solar Impulse 2 along at a maximum speed of… 35 MPH.

 Now, there was a time when most people scoffed at the idea of a home
 computer, and what would you do with one any way? A digital camera that
 would fit inside a portable phone? Impossible, or at least not good enough
 to use! Just because we can't see how it can be done now, doesn't mean that
 it's not possible, just that we don't know how - yet.


 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 1:08 PM, G Mann via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com
 wrote:

  And. The useful load for that Experimental category airplane is 
 
  Zero passengers.. Zero cargo.. but.. It is able to travel at almost 80
  MPH... most days when the sun shines... for a while
 
  Soon... your majesty.. very soon... I'll be able to turn lead into gold
 and
  you will be incredibly rich.. I do need just a little more equipment and
  funding
 
  Reality surely sucks, doesn't it..
 
  On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
  mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
   What about the pure solar plane flying around the globe - as we speak?
  
 



 --
 OK Don

 NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

 *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
 our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

 There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
 learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
 for themselves.

 WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
 2013 F150, 18 mpg
 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
 ___
 http://www.okiebenz.com

 To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

 To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
 http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com


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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread G Mann via Mercedes
I am troubled by the ongoing fantasy that an array of solar panels on the
wings would recharge and power the airplane. Or an electric car.

That fantasy seems to be driven by a direct disconnect from reality, which
in turn, seems driven by the belief that all electricity comes out of a
grid socket and is instantly available and instantly transfers full charge
to the battery bank.

It simply does not work that way. PV panels absorb energy from the sun,
then produce electricity at a relativly low conversion rate [even the
highest tech panels yield only about 16% ]...

Sorry to rain you your private parade. The reality gap between dream and
production is a wide one, on the same scale as the ancient alchemist who
believed there was a simple formula to convert lead to gold..
On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 9:29 AM, OK Don via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

 It's certainly not the worlds first, Yuneec flew one in 2009 - - -
 according to the Telegraph: The aircraft manufacturer has unveiled the
 world's first plug-in plane at the Paris Air Show.


 http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/exclusivevids/ExclusiveVideo_YuneecE430_ElectricAirplane_FirstFlight_200617-1.html

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwyyQ1BckK0


 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

  All they need is a solar PV charging station...
 
  On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:12 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
  mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 
 


 --
 OK Don

 NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

 *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
 our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

 There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
 learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
 for themselves.

 WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
 2013 F150, 18 mpg
 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
 ___
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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread WILTON via Mercedes

Amen.

People still trying to get something for/from nothing (or more out of it 
than goes into it).  Physics is still physics, and it'll work EVERY time.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com

To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane



I am troubled by the ongoing fantasy that an array of solar panels on the
wings would recharge and power the airplane. Or an electric car.

That fantasy seems to be driven by a direct disconnect from reality, which
in turn, seems driven by the belief that all electricity comes out of a
grid socket and is instantly available and instantly transfers full charge
to the battery bank.

It simply does not work that way. PV panels absorb energy from the sun,
then produce electricity at a relativly low conversion rate [even the
highest tech panels yield only about 16% ]...

Sorry to rain you your private parade. The reality gap between dream and
production is a wide one, on the same scale as the ancient alchemist who
believed there was a simple formula to convert lead to gold..
On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 9:29 AM, OK Don via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com

wrote:


It's certainly not the worlds first, Yuneec flew one in 2009 - - -
according to the Telegraph: The aircraft manufacturer has unveiled the
world's first plug-in plane at the Paris Air Show.


http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/exclusivevids/ExclusiveVideo_YuneecE430_ElectricAirplane_FirstFlight_200617-1.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwyyQ1BckK0


On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 All they need is a solar PV charging station...

 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:12 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:





--
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many 
of

our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few 
who

learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes

archer75--- via Mercedes wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3117977/World-s-plug-plane-takes-Bright-sparks-Airbus-unveil-electric-two-seater-E-Fan-aircraft-Paris-Air-s-nearly-silent-flight.html


Electric has been replacing methanol in model planes over the last 20 years or 
so, mainly because Lithium batteries have become cheaper than methanol and 
nitromethane and high efficiency brushless electric motors are becoming cheaper 
while glow engines are getting more expensive.


I assume the Airbus is ducted fan because it's more efficient than propellers? 
It's surprising to me because you don't often see DF in models unless it's a 
scale model of a jet plane.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
All they need is a solar PV charging station...

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:12 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 archer75--- via Mercedes wrote:


 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3117977/World-s-plug-plane-takes-Bright-sparks-Airbus-unveil-electric-two-seater-E-Fan-aircraft-Paris-Air-s-nearly-silent-flight.html


 Electric has been replacing methanol in model planes over the last 20
 years or so, mainly because Lithium batteries have become cheaper than
 methanol and nitromethane and high efficiency brushless electric motors are
 becoming cheaper while glow engines are getting more expensive.

 I assume the Airbus is ducted fan because it's more efficient than
 propellers? It's surprising to me because you don't often see DF in models
 unless it's a scale model of a jet plane.

 Mitch.


 ___
 http://www.okiebenz.com

 To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

 To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
 http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com


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Re: [MBZ] Add: Airbus Electric Plane

2015-06-17 Thread OK Don via Mercedes
It's certainly not the worlds first, Yuneec flew one in 2009 - - -
according to the Telegraph: The aircraft manufacturer has unveiled the
world's first plug-in plane at the Paris Air Show.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/exclusivevids/ExclusiveVideo_YuneecE430_ElectricAirplane_FirstFlight_200617-1.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwyyQ1BckK0


On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 All they need is a solar PV charging station...

 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:12 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:





-- 
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com