Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-17 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes

Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

I change every 5k.

Yeah, I know, I know.  Cheap insurance and we're typically talking about twice 
a year for each car if that.

Since the climate down here is nasty a good part of the year, I'm sure the oil 
takes a beating as it is. I'm sure I could go longer, but every six months is a 
good interval any way.



You talking about freezing weather, short trips that don't get the oil hot 
enough to force out the H2O, dusty dirt roads, etc?


I suppose FL humidity combined with trip distances under 2 miles could be hard 
on the oil, but other than that, it should be far kinder to the oil than, say, 
Wisconsin.
Current M1 might not hold up under heat as well as 1970's near-pure PAO M1, but 
nobody really needs 400°F+ heat resistance for their S500's oil.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-17 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes

Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:

I'm gonna call shenanigans. Nobody has ever been able to prove that anything 
has changed with M1. The samples I took last year look just like the ones I 
took in 2006 and say the oil is good to at least 10k in my 190D.


The talk I heard was shortly after the Castrol Syntec legal actions in the 
1990s. Once Castrol/Quaker State got the FTC to back off on requiring them to 
actually put synthesized molecules in the bottles labeled 'synthetic', then 
everybody started copying their business model.


The funny thing was that in 1992, black bottle Syntec was marketed as a premium 
product, sold for $5 a quart when M1 was $4 a quart and it was somewhat common 
to see M1 on sale for $2.99. I got Syntec for less than M1 after rebate in 1992 
or 1993, found that me car suddenly 'used' oil with the Syntec in the sump. Had 
to add a quart after 2000 miles or so. Took out the 5w50 Castrol, put in 5W30 
M1, and consumption went back to 1/2 qt in 7500 miles. At the time I wondered if 
the Syntec cooked down or evaporated, and I never used it again. With the FTC 
action a few years later, I was convinced that heat caused a reduction in volume 
of Syntec that didn't happen with M1.


When I look back on that $0.999 premium gas and $3.99 Mobil One, I realize what 
a bargain it would be to get the same quality M1 today for $23 per 5 quarts when 
premium gas is $3.75.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-17 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes

OK Don via Mercedes wrote:

All of my (previous) MB Diesels with at or over 200,000 miles were sampled,
and determined that at 15,000 mile change intervals they could go another
3-5k miles due to soot level. All other elements were in tolerance as well.
Bear in mind that they leaked enough oil that there were several quarts
added between changes. The plus side was that my driveway was always nice
and black and shed water like a duck's back.


I'd be leery of running a 190D or 124 diesel past 10k without changing the 
filter.
I'm probably being conservative, but I'd feel uncomfortable taking a 617 past 5k 
or 7k on one oil filter. (I might leave the oil in and run an analysis, but if 
the analysis came back good I'd keep the oil and swap the filter)


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-17 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
Analysis don't lie.

The weak point on 61x is the soot levels get high. I never took my 240D past 
8,000 miles.

-Curt



 From: Mitch Haley via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
To: OK Don okd...@gmail.com; Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2014 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 

OK Don via Mercedes wrote:
 All of my (previous) MB Diesels with at or over 200,000 miles were sampled,
 and determined that at 15,000 mile change intervals they could go another
 3-5k miles due to soot level. All other elements were in tolerance as well.
 Bear in mind that they leaked enough oil that there were several quarts
 added between changes. The plus side was that my driveway was always nice
 and black and shed water like a duck's back.

I'd be leery of running a 190D or 124 diesel past 10k without changing the 
filter.
I'm probably being conservative, but I'd feel uncomfortable taking a 617 past 
5k 
or 7k on one oil filter. (I might leave the oil in and run an analysis, but if 
the analysis came back good I'd keep the oil and swap the filter)

Mitch.




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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-17 Thread Dwight Giles via Mercedes
Just bought 3 jugs of 15w50 @ $22.66 each at local evil W.
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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
Says out of stock online

About what I'm paying for Car Quest full synthetic 5w40 which carries the VW 
spec the Jetta wants. I've more or less standardized on that for most 
everything although the 190D is still running M1 since I had a gallon at its 
last change interval.

-Curt



 From: Rich Thomas via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 2:43 PM
Subject: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 

It's the best oil for your Mercedes

http://www.walmart.com/browse/motor-oil,-transmission-fluid-car-lubricant/motor-oil/mobil-1/91083_1104294_1072084/YnJhbmQ6TW9iiaWwgMQieie?_refineresult=true

--R



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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
I have struggled with hit or miss stock on the 15W-50 around here. I have 
gotten into the habit of checking the two Supercenters in the area online 
about once a week, and when they have it I buy a couple of jugs.

With three MBs running the stuff I can't afford to run out.

Dan

Sent from my iPad

 On Jul 16, 2014, at 2:49 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 Says out of stock online
 
 About what I'm paying for Car Quest full synthetic 5w40 which carries the VW 
 spec the Jetta wants. I've more or less standardized on that for most 
 everything although the 190D is still running M1 since I had a gallon at its 
 last change interval.
 
 -Curt
 
 
 
 From: Rich Thomas via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 2:43 PM
 Subject: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 
 
 It's the best oil for your Mercedes
 
 http://www.walmart.com/browse/motor-oil,-transmission-fluid-car-lubricant/motor-oil/mobil-1/91083_1104294_1072084/YnJhbmQ6TW9iiaWwgMQieie?_refineresult=true
 
 --R
 
 
 
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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
How often are you changing? I'll probably change the Jetta at the end of next 
week which will be right around 250,000 miles with maybe 10k OCI. I should 
probably take a sample and see how things are inside.

The 190D gets 10k changes, the Ranger 8k because it does mostly short trips.

-Curt



 From: Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com
To: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com; Mercedes Discussion List 
mercedes@okiebenz.com 
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 

I have struggled with hit or miss stock on the 15W-50 around here. I have 
gotten into the habit of checking the two Supercenters in the area online 
about once a week, and when they have it I buy a couple of jugs.

With three MBs running the stuff I can't afford to run out.

Dan

Sent from my iPad




 On Jul 16, 2014, at 2:49 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 Says out of stock online
 
 About what I'm paying for Car Quest full synthetic 5w40 which carries the VW 
 spec the Jetta wants. I've more or less standardized on that for most 
 everything although the 190D is still running M1 since I had a gallon at its 
 last change interval.
 
 -Curt
 
 
 
 From: Rich Thomas via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 2:43 PM
 Subject: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 
 
 It's the best oil for your Mercedes
 
 http://www.walmart.com/browse/motor-oil,-transmission-fluid-car-lubricant/motor-oil/mobil-1/91083_1104294_1072084/YnJhbmQ6TW9iiaWwgMQieie?_refineresult=true
 
 --R
 
 
 
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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes
Did you know that stuff is not really synthetic anymore, it's just group 3 base 
stock. Better off using delvac 1 Dino because you should not go extended oil 
changes with m1 anymore

Sent from my iPhone

 On Jul 16, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 How often are you changing? I'll probably change the Jetta at the end of next 
 week which will be right around 250,000 miles with maybe 10k OCI. I should 
 probably take a sample and see how things are inside.
 
 The 190D gets 10k changes, the Ranger 8k because it does mostly short trips.
 
 -Curt
 
 
 
 From: Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com
 To: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com; Mercedes Discussion List 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 3:09 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 
 
 I have struggled with hit or miss stock on the 15W-50 around here. I have 
 gotten into the habit of checking the two Supercenters in the area online 
 about once a week, and when they have it I buy a couple of jugs.
 
 With three MBs running the stuff I can't afford to run out.
 
 Dan
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 
 
 
 On Jul 16, 2014, at 2:49 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 Says out of stock online
 
 About what I'm paying for Car Quest full synthetic 5w40 which carries the VW 
 spec the Jetta wants. I've more or less standardized on that for most 
 everything although the 190D is still running M1 since I had a gallon at its 
 last change interval.
 
 -Curt
 
 
 
 From: Rich Thomas via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 2:43 PM
 Subject: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 
 
 It's the best oil for your Mercedes
 
 http://www.walmart.com/browse/motor-oil,-transmission-fluid-car-lubricant/motor-oil/mobil-1/91083_1104294_1072084/YnJhbmQ6TW9iiaWwgMQieie?_refineresult=true
 
 --R
 
 
 
 ___
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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
I change every 5k.

Yeah, I know, I know.  Cheap insurance and we're typically talking about twice 
a year for each car if that.

Since the climate down here is nasty a good part of the year, I'm sure the oil 
takes a beating as it is. I'm sure I could go longer, but every six months is a 
good interval any way.

Dan

Sent from my iPad

 On Jul 16, 2014, at 3:17 PM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 How often are you changing? I'll probably change the Jetta at the end of next 
 week which will be right around 250,000 miles with maybe 10k OCI. I should 
 probably take a sample and see how things are inside.
 
 The 190D gets 10k changes, the Ranger 8k because it does mostly short trips.
 
 -Curt
 
 From: Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com
 To: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com; Mercedes Discussion List 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 3:09 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 
 I have struggled with hit or miss stock on the 15W-50 around here. I have 
 gotten into the habit of checking the two Supercenters in the area online 
 about once a week, and when they have it I buy a couple of jugs.
 
 With three MBs running the stuff I can't afford to run out.
 
 Dan
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 
 
  On Jul 16, 2014, at 2:49 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
  mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
  
  Says out of stock online
  
  About what I'm paying for Car Quest full synthetic 5w40 which carries the 
  VW spec the Jetta wants. I've more or less standardized on that for most 
  everything although the 190D is still running M1 since I had a gallon at 
  its last change interval.
  
  -Curt
  
  
  
  From: Rich Thomas via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
  To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 2:43 PM
  Subject: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
  
  
  It's the best oil for your Mercedes
  
  http://www.walmart.com/browse/motor-oil,-transmission-fluid-car-lubricant/motor-oil/mobil-1/91083_1104294_1072084/YnJhbmQ6TW9iiaWwgMQieie?_refineresult=true
  
  --R
  
  
  
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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes
How about the European formula?  Isn't that still full synthetic?

Greg

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Kaleb C.
Striplin via Mercedes
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 12:41 PM
To: Curt Raymond; Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

Did you know that stuff is not really synthetic anymore, it's just group 3
base stock. Better off using delvac 1 Dino because you should not go
extended oil changes with m1 anymore

Sent from my iPhone

 On Jul 16, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 How often are you changing? I'll probably change the Jetta at the end of
next week which will be right around 250,000 miles with maybe 10k OCI. I
should probably take a sample and see how things are inside.
 
 The 190D gets 10k changes, the Ranger 8k because it does mostly short
trips.
 
 -Curt
 
 
 
 From: Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com
 To: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com; Mercedes Discussion List
mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 3:09 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 
 
 I have struggled with hit or miss stock on the 15W-50 around here. I have
gotten into the habit of checking the two Supercenters in the area online
about once a week, and when they have it I buy a couple of jugs.
 
 With three MBs running the stuff I can't afford to run out.
 
 Dan
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 
 
 
 On Jul 16, 2014, at 2:49 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 Says out of stock online
 
 About what I'm paying for Car Quest full synthetic 5w40 which carries the
VW spec the Jetta wants. I've more or less standardized on that for most
everything although the 190D is still running M1 since I had a gallon at its
last change interval.
 
 -Curt
 
 
 
 From: Rich Thomas via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 2:43 PM
 Subject: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 
 
 It's the best oil for your Mercedes
 

http://www.walmart.com/browse/motor-oil,-transmission-fluid-car-lubricant/mo
tor-oil/mobil-1/91083_1104294_1072084/YnJhbmQ6TW9iiaWwgMQieie?_refineresult=
true
 
 --R
 
 
 
 ___
 http://www.okiebenz.com
 
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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
Have you done any analysis? If you could go 10k that'd be once a year.

The cheap insurance argument is BS, underusing your oil means its actually 
more abrasive, theres loads of info out there suggesting that oil wears in 
and is actually more protective after its been used some. Larry gets $60 for 3 
test kits which should be plenty to work you up to 10k changes (ie pull a 
sample at 5k, 7500 and 10k).

I'm debating taking the Jetta up to 15k changes. VW currently recommends 10k in 
the US but 30k (!) in Europe. The reason for the short changes here is because 
they figure nobody reads the manual anyway...

-Curt



 From: Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
To: Mercedes List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 

I change every 5k.

Yeah, I know, I know.  Cheap insurance and we're typically talking about twice 
a year for each car if that.

Since the climate down here is nasty a good part of the year, I'm sure the oil 
takes a beating as it is. I'm sure I could go longer, but every six months is a 
good interval any way.

Dan

Sent from my iPad

 On Jul 16, 2014, at 3:17 PM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 How often are you changing? I'll probably change the Jetta at the end of next 
 week which will be right around 250,000 miles with maybe 10k OCI. I should 
 probably take a sample and see how things are inside.
 
 The 190D gets 10k changes, the Ranger 8k because it does mostly short trips.
 
 -Curt
 
 From: Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com
 To: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com; Mercedes Discussion List 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 3:09 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 
 I have struggled with hit or miss stock on the 15W-50 around here. I have 
 gotten into the habit of checking the two Supercenters in the area online 
 about once a week, and when they have it I buy a couple of jugs.
 
 With three MBs running the stuff I can't afford to run out.
 
 Dan
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 
 
  On Jul 16, 2014, at 2:49 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
  mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
  
  Says out of stock online
  
  About what I'm paying for Car Quest full synthetic 5w40 which carries the 
  VW spec the Jetta wants. I've more or less standardized on that for most 
  everything although the 190D is still running M1 since I had a gallon at 
  its last change interval.
  
  -Curt
  
  
  
  From: Rich Thomas via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
  To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 2:43 PM
  Subject: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
  
  
  It's the best oil for your Mercedes
  
  http://www.walmart.com/browse/motor-oil,-transmission-fluid-car-lubricant/motor-oil/mobil-1/91083_1104294_1072084/YnJhbmQ6TW9iiaWwgMQieie?_refineresult=true
  
  --R
  
  
  
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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
I'm gonna call shenanigans. Nobody has ever been able to prove that anything 
has changed with M1. The samples I took last year look just like the ones I 
took in 2006 and say the oil is good to at least 10k in my 190D.

Loads of people are running extended changes with M1, you want to spend a whole 
bunch of time changing oil be my guest but I prefer to drive the thing...

-Curt



 From: Kaleb C. Striplin ka...@striplin.net
To: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com; Mercedes Discussion List 
mercedes@okiebenz.com 
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 

Did you know that stuff is not really synthetic anymore, it's just group 3 base 
stock. Better off using delvac 1 Dino because you should not go extended oil 
changes with m1 anymore

Sent from my iPhone

 On Jul 16, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 How often are you changing? I'll probably change the Jetta at the end of next 
 week which will be right around 250,000 miles with maybe 10k OCI. I should 
 probably take a sample and see how things are inside.
 
 The 190D gets 10k changes, the Ranger 8k because it does mostly short trips.
 
 -Curt
 
 
 
 From: Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com
 To: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com; Mercedes Discussion List 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 3:09 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 
 
 I have struggled with hit or miss stock on the 15W-50 around here. I have 
 gotten into the habit of checking the two Supercenters in the area online 
 about once a week, and when they have it I buy a couple of jugs.
 
 With three MBs running the stuff I can't afford to run out.
 
 Dan
 
 Sent from my iPad
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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
I am changing about every 5k-6k and I'm perfectly happy with that.  If the oil 
hasn't broken in (and I would like to see the citations for these claims) by 
then it's not going to.

For almost 25 years I worked with industrial diesels with 1000s of HP that had 
sumps well beyond 100 gallons.  Almost every one of them was changed on a 
calendar basis, only a few were changed based on oil analysis.  I'm not saying 
there's anything wrong with oil analysis, in fact, when done properly it can 
provide a wealth of information about the engine.  In the stationary engine 
business, about the only people who do oil analysis are those who have an 
aggressive maintenance program that pays close attention to everything, and/or 
those running engines in prime power (continuous) operation.  Everyone else 
does it every two years or so.

Quite frankly, I don't care to do it and I don't want the additional hassle and 
expense.  I'll just change mine on the intervals I'm happy with and continue 
on.  And yes, we could argue that I would save money in the long run, but I'm 
not that interested in doing so.  I'm just more comfortable with changing the 
oil and filter out at the mileage or time I think is appropriate.

Dan


On Jul 16, 2014, at 3:46 PM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Have you done any analysis? If you could go 10k that'd be once a year.
 
 The cheap insurance argument is BS, underusing your oil means its actually 
 more abrasive, theres loads of info out there suggesting that oil wears in 
 and is actually more protective after its been used some. Larry gets $60 for 
 3 test kits which should be plenty to work you up to 10k changes (ie pull a 
 sample at 5k, 7500 and 10k).
 
 I'm debating taking the Jetta up to 15k changes. VW currently recommends 10k 
 in the US but 30k (!) in Europe. The reason for the short changes here is 
 because they figure nobody reads the manual anyway...
 
 -Curt
 
 From: Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Mercedes List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 3:41 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 
 I change every 5k.
 
 Yeah, I know, I know.  Cheap insurance and we're typically talking about 
 twice a year for each car if that.
 
 Since the climate down here is nasty a good part of the year, I'm sure the 
 oil takes a beating as it is. I'm sure I could go longer, but every six 
 months is a good interval any way.
 
 Dan
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
  On Jul 16, 2014, at 3:17 PM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote:
  
  How often are you changing? I'll probably change the Jetta at the end of 
  next week which will be right around 250,000 miles with maybe 10k OCI. I 
  should probably take a sample and see how things are inside.
  
  The 190D gets 10k changes, the Ranger 8k because it does mostly short trips.
  
  -Curt
  
  From: Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com
  To: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com; Mercedes Discussion List 
  mercedes@okiebenz.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 3:09 PM
  Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
  
  I have struggled with hit or miss stock on the 15W-50 around here. I have 
  gotten into the habit of checking the two Supercenters in the area online 
  about once a week, and when they have it I buy a couple of jugs.
  
  With three MBs running the stuff I can't afford to run out.
  
  Dan
  
  Sent from my iPad
  
  
  
   On Jul 16, 2014, at 2:49 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
   mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
   
   Says out of stock online
   
   About what I'm paying for Car Quest full synthetic 5w40 which carries the 
   VW spec the Jetta wants. I've more or less standardized on that for most 
   everything although the 190D is still running M1 since I had a gallon at 
   its last change interval.
   
   -Curt
   
   
   
   From: Rich Thomas via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
   To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
   Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 2:43 PM
   Subject: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
   
   
   It's the best oil for your Mercedes
   
   http://www.walmart.com/browse/motor-oil,-transmission-fluid-car-lubricant/motor-oil/mobil-1/91083_1104294_1072084/YnJhbmQ6TW9iiaWwgMQieie?_refineresult=true
   
   --R
   
   
   
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   To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
Is the lack of analysis on stationary engines a factor of short run times?

Caterpillar has a super aggressive program of analysis that helps them keep 
machines running for way longer than ever before and lowers maintenance costs 
by allowing fluids to run longer. If I had an engine with a sump that held 100 
gallons you bet I'd want to get all I could out of that oil, changing it early 
would be crazy talk compared to running a $20 analysis...

I find it interesting that the Mercedes Martha Stewart doesn't care about 
whats going on INSIDE the engine. My cars get the opposite treatment, I don't 
really mind what they look like, they have to perform. Then again I drive like 
4x as much as you do.

-Curt



 From: Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
To: Mercedes List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 

I am changing about every 5k-6k and I'm perfectly happy with that.  If the oil 
hasn't broken in (and I would like to see the citations for these claims) by 
then it's not going to.

For almost 25 years I worked with industrial diesels with 1000s of HP that had 
sumps well beyond 100 gallons.  Almost every one of them was changed on a 
calendar basis, only a few were changed based on oil analysis.  I'm not saying 
there's anything wrong with oil analysis, in fact, when done properly it can 
provide a wealth of information about the engine.  In the stationary engine 
business, about the only people who do oil analysis are those who have an 
aggressive maintenance program that pays close attention to everything, and/or 
those running engines in prime power (continuous) operation.  Everyone else 
does it every two years or so.

Quite frankly, I don't care to do it and I don't want the additional hassle and 
expense.  I'll just change mine on the intervals I'm happy with and continue 
on.  And yes, we could argue that I would save money in the long run, but I'm 
not that interested in doing so.  I'm just more comfortable with changing the 
oil and filter out at the mileage or time I think is appropriate.

Dan
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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
One last thing and I'll shut up, the analysis is so easy the hassle and 
expense is laughable. Remember you do it 3-5 times which shows you the 
duration that the oil is viable.
You contact Larry and give him $60, he sends you 3 bellows bottles. You put the 
tube down the dipstick hole, crush all the air out of the bottle and then suck 
up a sample. Put on the cap, put it in a baggie, fill out the paperwork, put 
the bottle/baggie in the prepaid mailer and then drop it in the mail. Later he 
emails you results and sends a paper copy in the mail. Couldn't possibly be 
easier unless somebody did it for you.

I wish I could find the post on TDIclub where they talked about the oil being 
more abrasive than it ought to at first but I can't. When I find it again I'll 
let you know. Interestingly if you try googling around theres quite the rift. 
Many of the car sites like Edmunds are pushing people away from the 3,000 mile 
oil change but theres several shop pages pushing people back to it. The later 
are suggesting that cars are sludging up and failing because of infrequent oil 
changes. What they aren't saying is that extended OCI on conventional oils or 
cars that require synthetic is probably they cause...

-Curt



 From: Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
To: Mercedes List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 

I am changing about every 5k-6k and I'm perfectly happy with that.  If the oil 
hasn't broken in (and I would like to see the citations for these claims) by 
then it's not going to.

For almost 25 years I worked with industrial diesels with 1000s of HP that had 
sumps well beyond 100 gallons.  Almost every one of them was changed on a 
calendar basis, only a few were changed based on oil analysis.  I'm not saying 
there's anything wrong with oil analysis, in fact, when done properly it can 
provide a wealth of information about the engine.  In the stationary engine 
business, about the only people who do oil analysis are those who have an 
aggressive maintenance program that pays close attention to everything, and/or 
those running engines in prime power (continuous) operation.  Everyone else 
does it every two years or so.

Quite frankly, I don't care to do it and I don't want the additional hassle and 
expense.  I'll just change mine on the intervals I'm happy with and continue 
on.  And yes, we could argue that I would save money in the long run, but I'm 
not that interested in doing so.  I'm just more comfortable with changing the 
oil and filter out at the mileage or time I think is appropriate.

Dan
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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes


 On Jul 16, 2014, at 5:38 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 Is the lack of analysis on stationary engines a factor of short run times?

Mostly. Because of the typical short cycle times, the oil is often contaminated 
by condensation in the engine. This is exacerbated by the engines rarely being 
run under load, and even then the load is fairly small.  It's not uncommon to 
find the waxy white deposits in the bottom of the crankcase in these engines 
due to their not getting hot enough to boil off moisture in the crankcase.

 Caterpillar has a super aggressive program of analysis that helps them keep 
 machines running for way longer than ever before and lowers maintenance costs 
 by allowing fluids to run longer. If I had an engine with a sump that held 
 100 gallons you bet I'd want to get all I could out of that oil, changing it 
 early would be crazy talk compared to running a $20 analysis...

Caterpillar does this themselves, but I can tell you from direct experience 
that very few of their standby power end users do it. The expense is often seen 
as something of an extravagance, and since the typical life of these units far 
exceeds their service life, most customers forego sampling.

Customers who have fleet operations will do it as they have the programs in 
place already. Prime power users will do it due to cost.  It's the ones who 
have one or two units onsite that balk at the expense.

Understand that a typical oil analysis for an industrial engine from a 
certified lab can run into several hundred dollars by the time it's marked up 
by the service provider.  Ask one of those Cat customers what an oil sample 
costs them.

 I find it interesting that the Mercedes Martha Stewart doesn't care about 
 whats going on INSIDE the engine. My cars get the opposite treatment, I don't 
 really mind what they look like, they have to perform. Then again I drive 
 like 4x as much as you do.

My cars perform, and perform well.  If I found that my cam bearings were 
wearing, for example, I would dump the car.  It's not that I don't care, as 
that would suggest that I don't maintain or follow MBs recommendations, and 
that's simply not true. I follow the service intervals religiously. With that 
in mind, my expectations are that the car(s) should last as long or longer than 
MB would predict.  If fluid sampling was relevant or added value under normal 
operation, I would do it. Mercedes doesn't consider it necessary, nor does any 
other car manufacturer.

Again, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it. In my mind, it's 
overkill and the cost doesn't justify the expense, that's all.

Dan







 
 From: Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Mercedes List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 5:28 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 
 
 I am changing about every 5k-6k and I'm perfectly happy with that.  If the 
 oil hasn't broken in (and I would like to see the citations for these 
 claims) by then it's not going to.
 
 For almost 25 years I worked with industrial diesels with 1000s of HP that 
 had sumps well beyond 100 gallons.  Almost every one of them was changed on a 
 calendar basis, only a few were changed based on oil analysis.  I'm not 
 saying there's anything wrong with oil analysis, in fact, when done properly 
 it can provide a wealth of information about the engine.  In the stationary 
 engine business, about the only people who do oil analysis are those who have 
 an aggressive maintenance program that pays close attention to everything, 
 and/or those running engines in prime power (continuous) operation.  Everyone 
 else does it every two years or so.
 
 Quite frankly, I don't care to do it and I don't want the additional hassle 
 and expense.  I'll just change mine on the intervals I'm happy with and 
 continue on.  And yes, we could argue that I would save money in the long 
 run, but I'm not that interested in doing so.  I'm just more comfortable with 
 changing the oil and filter out at the mileage or time I think is appropriate.
 
 Dan
 ___
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 http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
 
 All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those 
 individuals are responsible for the content of the post.  The list owner has 
 no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.

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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
Not sure I understand. Every industrial engine sampling program I ever ran was 
sampled on a regular schedule.

I understand the baseline concept, but in the programs I worked with we would 
sample several times a year to determine the oil condition to determine when it 
was exhausted and should be changed.

Dan

Sent from my iPad

 On Jul 16, 2014, at 6:34 PM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 You know you don't continue with the samples right? You get a good baseline 
 and then continue with your OCI...
 Plus this gives you a baseline so you know whats inside your engine...
 
 -Curt
 
 From: Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com
 To: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 6:18 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 
 I just did the math on this and it doesn't make sense. Here's what I'm 
 thinking:
 
 7.5 quarts of oil = $34.50
 Oil filter = $10.00
 
 Oil change total = $44.50
 
 Twice a year = $89.00
 
 Oil change = $44.50
 Oil samples = $60.00
 
 Once a year oil change + samples = $104.50
 
 
 I could dink around with the frequencies of samplings and changes, but let's 
 say you do it over a year as shown above. You're spending more than two oil 
 changes. Push it out to 18 months and the difference is marginal at best.
 
 The numbers just don't add up or make sense to me.
 
 Dan
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 
 
 On Jul 16, 2014, at 5:55 PM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 
 One last thing and I'll shut up, the analysis is so easy the hassle and 
 expense is laughable. Remember you do it 3-5 times which shows you the 
 duration that the oil is viable.
 You contact Larry and give him $60, he sends you 3 bellows bottles. You put 
 the tube down the dipstick hole, crush all the air out of the bottle and 
 then suck up a sample. Put on the cap, put it in a baggie, fill out the 
 paperwork, put the bottle/baggie in the prepaid mailer and then drop it in 
 the mail. Later he emails you results and sends a paper copy in the mail. 
 Couldn't possibly be easier unless somebody did it for you.
 
 I wish I could find the post on TDIclub where they talked about the oil 
 being more abrasive than it ought to at first but I can't. When I find it 
 again I'll let you know. Interestingly if you try googling around theres 
 quite the rift. Many of the car sites like Edmunds are pushing people away 
 from the 3,000 mile oil change but theres several shop pages pushing people 
 back to it. The later are suggesting that cars are sludging up and failing 
 because of infrequent oil changes. What they aren't saying is that extended 
 OCI on conventional oils or cars that require synthetic is probably they 
 cause...
 
 -Curt
 
 
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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
My experience with Caterpillar is limited to earthmovers where everybody does 
the samples. They sample hydraulic fluid too, a breakdown at a job site is way 
more expensive than pulling samples.

I was under the impression over the road truckers were doing it too, another 
case where a breakdown simply isn't worth it.

I'm a little surprised there aren't systems to polish the oil or heat the 
condensation out of it. Seems like a little heat would be big savings if we 
were talking about that substantial an amount of oil.

-Curt



 From: Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 



 On Jul 16, 2014, at 5:38 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 Is the lack of analysis on stationary engines a factor of short run times?

Mostly. Because of the typical short cycle times, the oil is often contaminated 
by condensation in the engine. This is exacerbated by the engines rarely being 
run under load, and even then the load is fairly small.  It's not uncommon to 
find the waxy white deposits in the bottom of the crankcase in these engines 
due to their not getting hot enough to boil off moisture in the crankcase.

 Caterpillar has a super aggressive program of analysis that helps them keep 
 machines running for way longer than ever before and lowers maintenance costs 
 by allowing fluids to run longer. If I had an engine with a sump that held 
 100 gallons you bet I'd want to get all I could out of that oil, changing it 
 early would be crazy talk compared to running a $20 analysis...

Caterpillar does this themselves, but I can tell you from direct experience 
that very few of their standby power end users do it. The expense is often seen 
as something of an extravagance, and since the typical life of these units far 
exceeds their service life, most customers forego sampling.

Customers who have fleet operations will do it as they have the programs in 
place already. Prime power users will do it due to cost.  It's the ones who 
have one or two units onsite that balk at the expense.

Understand that a typical oil analysis for an industrial engine from a 
certified lab can run into several hundred dollars by the time it's marked up 
by the service provider.  Ask one of those Cat customers what an oil sample 
costs them.

 I find it interesting that the Mercedes Martha Stewart doesn't care about 
 whats going on INSIDE the engine. My cars get the opposite treatment, I don't 
 really mind what they look like, they have to perform. Then again I drive 
 like 4x as much as you do.

My cars perform, and perform well.  If I found that my cam bearings were 
wearing, for example, I would dump the car.  It's not that I don't care, as 
that would suggest that I don't maintain or follow MBs recommendations, and 
that's simply not true. I follow the service intervals religiously. With that 
in mind, my expectations are that the car(s) should last as long or longer than 
MB would predict.  If fluid sampling was relevant or added value under normal 
operation, I would do it. Mercedes doesn't consider it necessary, nor does any 
other car manufacturer.

Again, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it. In my mind, it's 
overkill and the cost doesn't justify the expense, that's all.

Dan
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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
The earthmoving equipment side of Cat is a totally different animal compared to 
their Power Systems business.  The earthmoving guys have totally brainwashed 
the customers that the only service they can use is Cat, and to do anything 
that isn't recommended by the factory is heresy and can result in horrible, 
horrible things.  It's actually a great thing for them, since they make 
boatloads of money off of this approach.

With the exception of the prime power side, the standby generator community for 
the most part sees through a lot of this and as a result won't or doesn't 
follow a lot of their recommendations.  Especially because there are plenty of 
competitors out there who can do the exact same thing for less, usually a lot 
less.

Here's an example:

Got a call one day from FedEx.  They had a 300kW Cat generator at one of their 
facilities.  The local Cat distributor had been maintaining it.  It needed a 
cooling system flush and refill along with a set of batteries.  We're talking 
about two 8D batteries and about 10 gallons of coolant.  One of my guys could 
do the work in about two hours, three if they took their time.

Caterpillar wanted $1800 to swap the batteries alone.

We did the whole job for less than that and made a very nice profit.

Nothing special here, we used proper industrial grade batteries and coolant on 
the Cat approved fluids list.

Needless to say that we signed a nice annual maintenance agreement with them 
shortly after the work was completed.

The local Cat distributor was notorious for this sort of stuff, and their 
approach was no different than the others - if it's Cat, you're going to pay a 
premium for the parts and service.

Here's another - one of my favorites:

The Department of Corrections got a deal on some surplus generators from the 
Iraq invasion.  A couple of 400kW Caterpillar units.  But - and here's the 
catch - they were 50Hz units.  Oooops!

So the State brings the Cat guys in.  They say the injection pumps need to be 
replaced to the tune of many thousands of dollars.  Now understand that the 
only thing that needs to happen is the speed of the engines has to be increased 
from 1500 RPM to 1800 RPM.  According to the Cat guys you can't just turn up 
the speed, as they won't fuel properly, etc., etc.

We have a contract with the Dept. of Corrections for many of their sites.  
Their head generator guy calls us out to look things over.

We gather all the information we can and then go consult with our diesel fuel 
and injection supplier.  What do we need to do?  Replace a $3.00 spring in the 
injection pumps and turn up the speed.  This is all they would do on the bench 
to accomplish what is needed.

We replace the springs and run a four hour 100% load bank test to prove the 
units will do what is expected.  I think our final bill was around $2,500.  Cat 
had quoted them something like $17,000 if memory serves me correctly.

They were our best customer.  We just followed them around and picked off 
customers left and right.

Dan


On Jul 16, 2014, at 6:46 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
wrote:

 My experience with Caterpillar is limited to earthmovers where everybody does 
 the samples. They sample hydraulic fluid too, a breakdown at a job site is 
 way more expensive than pulling samples.
 
 I was under the impression over the road truckers were doing it too, another 
 case where a breakdown simply isn't worth it.
 
 I'm a little surprised there aren't systems to polish the oil or heat the 
 condensation out of it. Seems like a little heat would be big savings if we 
 were talking about that substantial an amount of oil.
 
 -Curt
 
 
 
 From: Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 6:39 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 
 
 
 
 On Jul 16, 2014, at 5:38 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 Is the lack of analysis on stationary engines a factor of short run times?
 
 Mostly. Because of the typical short cycle times, the oil is often 
 contaminated by condensation in the engine. This is exacerbated by the 
 engines rarely being run under load, and even then the load is fairly small.  
 It's not uncommon to find the waxy white deposits in the bottom of the 
 crankcase in these engines due to their not getting hot enough to boil off 
 moisture in the crankcase.
 
 Caterpillar has a super aggressive program of analysis that helps them keep 
 machines running for way longer than ever before and lowers maintenance 
 costs by allowing fluids to run longer. If I had an engine with a sump that 
 held 100 gallons you bet I'd want to get all I could out of that oil, 
 changing it early would be crazy talk compared to running a $20 analysis...
 
 Caterpillar does this themselves, but I can tell you from direct experience 
 that very few of their standby power end users do

Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
Depends on what you're looking for. If the idea is just to figure out a safe 
OCI you make a couple tests, like 5,000, 7,500, 10,000. If 10,000 looks good 
its probably fine to repeat. If 10,000 looks marginal you could make another 
run at it (I had to do that with my '85 190D, the previous owner must have used 
crappy oil and the M1 cleaned the engine over time) or go back to your last 
good test interval and call that good enough.

For instance with my '85 190D I once took it all the way to 15,000 and the oil 
still tested fine. I dropped back to 10,000 mile OCI (twice a year at the time) 
and called that good enough since it meant I could change the oil in the fall 
and not worry about it all winter plus I knew I had a good safety margin.

If the idea is to really watch for changes in the engine then ongoing samples 
are called for but it sounds like thats something you're not interested in.

Curt



 From: Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
To: Mercedes List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 

Not sure I understand. Every industrial engine sampling program I ever ran was 
sampled on a regular schedule.

I understand the baseline concept, but in the programs I worked with we would 
sample several times a year to determine the oil condition to determine when it 
was exhausted and should be changed.

Dan

Sent from my iPad




 On Jul 16, 2014, at 6:34 PM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 You know you don't continue with the samples right? You get a good baseline 
 and then continue with your OCI...
 Plus this gives you a baseline so you know whats inside your engine...
 
 -Curt
 
 From: Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com
 To: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 6:18 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 
 I just did the math on this and it doesn't make sense. Here's what I'm 
 thinking:
 
 7.5 quarts of oil = $34.50
 Oil filter = $10.00
 
 Oil change total = $44.50
 
 Twice a year = $89.00
 
 Oil change = $44.50
 Oil samples = $60.00
 
 Once a year oil change + samples = $104.50
 
 
 I could dink around with the frequencies of samplings and changes, but let's 
 say you do it over a year as shown above. You're spending more than two oil 
 changes. Push it out to 18 months and the difference is marginal at best.
 
 The numbers just don't add up or make sense to me.
 
 Dan
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 
 
 On Jul 16, 2014, at 5:55 PM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 
 One last thing and I'll shut up, the analysis is so easy the hassle and 
 expense is laughable. Remember you do it 3-5 times which shows you the 
 duration that the oil is viable.
 You contact Larry and give him $60, he sends you 3 bellows bottles. You put 
 the tube down the dipstick hole, crush all the air out of the bottle and 
 then suck up a sample. Put on the cap, put it in a baggie, fill out the 
 paperwork, put the bottle/baggie in the prepaid mailer and then drop it in 
 the mail. Later he emails you results and sends a paper copy in the mail. 
 Couldn't possibly be easier unless somebody did it for you.
 
 I wish I could find the post on TDIclub where they talked about the oil 
 being more abrasive than it ought to at first but I can't. When I find it 
 again I'll let you know. Interestingly if you try googling around theres 
 quite the rift. Many of the car sites like Edmunds are pushing people away 
 from the 3,000 mile oil change but theres several shop pages pushing people 
 back to it. The later are suggesting that cars are sludging up and failing 
 because of infrequent oil changes. What they aren't saying is that extended 
 OCI on conventional oils or cars that require synthetic is probably they 
 cause...
 
 -Curt
 
 
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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
This SOP for industrial engines.  You sample on a regular basis, after a few 
samples you have a baseline and then you just compare each new one to determine 
if there is excessive or unusual wear in a particular area.

Same thing for hydraulic fluids.

Your Cat buddies are watching for changes in the chemical and metal levels in 
the oil to see how the engine is wearing.  They'll also look at the oil 
condition as well.  You can pretty well estimate when you need specific 
services on the engine based on changes in the levels of certain metals.

That's how they'll decide to do valve jobs, replace bearings, etc.  We;re 
talking about engines with thousands of hours on them. too.  This is in lieu of 
using a chronological framework to establish maintenance levels.  Over the long 
term it makes a lot of sense and is the least expensive way to maintain things. 
 It also allows them to anticipate certain maintenance jobs as well.

Dan



On Jul 16, 2014, at 7:51 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
wrote:

 If the idea is to really watch for changes in the engine then ongoing samples 
 are called for but it sounds like thats something you're not interested in.
 
 Curt
 
 


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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread Mountain Man via Mercedes
--R wrote:
 It's the best oil for your Mercedes

nuttin' like an oil thread to spark more traffic
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread Scott Ritchey via Mercedes
It is my understanding that BIG Diesels have additional filtering that
removes soot from the oil but these soot filters are not cost-effective for
our little automotive Diesels.  Obviously, a worn Diesel will allow a lot
more soot to get in the oil so maybe sampling would allow extended change
intervals for a new tight engine.  My one remaining Diesel car may have a
tight engine but it is far from new and my use of that car is inconsistent.
So I change by miles or calendar (annual), whichever comes first, and skip
sampling.  If I drove a lot of miles on that car I might have a different
strategy.

Scott

 -Original Message-
 From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan
 Penoff via Mercedes
 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 6:40 PM
 To: Mercedes Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 
 
 
  On Jul 16, 2014, at 5:38 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
  Is the lack of analysis on stationary engines a factor of short run
 times?
 
 Mostly. Because of the typical short cycle times, the oil is often
 contaminated by condensation in the engine. This is exacerbated by the
 engines rarely being run under load, and even then the load is fairly
 small.  It's not uncommon to find the waxy white deposits in the bottom of
 the crankcase in these engines due to their not getting hot enough to boil
 off moisture in the crankcase.
 
  Caterpillar has a super aggressive program of analysis that helps them
 keep machines running for way longer than ever before and lowers
 maintenance costs by allowing fluids to run longer. If I had an engine
 with a sump that held 100 gallons you bet I'd want to get all I could out
 of that oil, changing it early would be crazy talk compared to running a
 $20 analysis...
 
 Caterpillar does this themselves, but I can tell you from direct
 experience that very few of their standby power end users do it. The
 expense is often seen as something of an extravagance, and since the
 typical life of these units far exceeds their service life, most customers
 forego sampling.
 
 Customers who have fleet operations will do it as they have the programs
 in place already. Prime power users will do it due to cost.  It's the ones
 who have one or two units onsite that balk at the expense.
 
 Understand that a typical oil analysis for an industrial engine from a
 certified lab can run into several hundred dollars by the time it's marked
 up by the service provider.  Ask one of those Cat customers what an oil
 sample costs them.
 
  I find it interesting that the Mercedes Martha Stewart doesn't care
 about whats going on INSIDE the engine. My cars get the opposite
 treatment, I don't really mind what they look like, they have to perform.
 Then again I drive like 4x as much as you do.
 
 My cars perform, and perform well.  If I found that my cam bearings were
 wearing, for example, I would dump the car.  It's not that I don't care,
 as that would suggest that I don't maintain or follow MBs recommendations,
 and that's simply not true. I follow the service intervals religiously.
 With that in mind, my expectations are that the car(s) should last as long
 or longer than MB would predict.  If fluid sampling was relevant or added
 value under normal operation, I would do it. Mercedes doesn't consider it
 necessary, nor does any other car manufacturer.
 
 Again, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it. In my mind, it's
 overkill and the cost doesn't justify the expense, that's all.
 
 Dan
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
  From: Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
  To: Mercedes List mercedes@okiebenz.com
  Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 5:28 PM
  Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 
 
  I am changing about every 5k-6k and I'm perfectly happy with that.  If
 the oil hasn't broken in (and I would like to see the citations for
 these claims) by then it's not going to.
 
  For almost 25 years I worked with industrial diesels with 1000s of HP
 that had sumps well beyond 100 gallons.  Almost every one of them was
 changed on a calendar basis, only a few were changed based on oil
 analysis.  I'm not saying there's anything wrong with oil analysis, in
 fact, when done properly it can provide a wealth of information about the
 engine.  In the stationary engine business, about the only people who do
 oil analysis are those who have an aggressive maintenance program that
 pays close attention to everything, and/or those running engines in prime
 power (continuous) operation.  Everyone else does it every two years or
 so.
 
  Quite frankly, I don't care to do it and I don't want the additional
 hassle and expense.  I'll just change mine on the intervals I'm happy with
 and continue on.  And yes, we could argue that I would save money in the
 long run, but I'm not that interested in doing so.  I'm just more
 comfortable with changing the oil and filter out at the mileage or time I
 think

Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
For the most part large displacement stationary diesels have nothing more than 
banks of large spin on or cartridge type filters, much like you would find on 
your car engine. They're just larger and often in multiples in order to provide 
a larger filter area for the much larger oil volume.

Some prime power stationary diesels can have centrifugal filters as well. These 
are literally centrifuges that spin the oil at very high RPMs in order to 
remove particulates.

There are also particulate traps installed on the exhaust, but when I was still 
in the business these were in their infancy. They weren't very efficient and 
required frequent service.

Dan



Sent from my iPad

 On Jul 16, 2014, at 8:52 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 It is my understanding that BIG Diesels have additional filtering that
 removes soot from the oil but these soot filters are not cost-effective for
 our little automotive Diesels.  Obviously, a worn Diesel will allow a lot
 more soot to get in the oil so maybe sampling would allow extended change
 intervals for a new tight engine.  My one remaining Diesel car may have a
 tight engine but it is far from new and my use of that car is inconsistent.
 So I change by miles or calendar (annual), whichever comes first, and skip
 sampling.  If I drove a lot of miles on that car I might have a different
 strategy.
 
 Scott
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan
 Penoff via Mercedes
 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 6:40 PM
 To: Mercedes Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World
 
 
 
 On Jul 16, 2014, at 5:38 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 Is the lack of analysis on stationary engines a factor of short run
 times?
 
 Mostly. Because of the typical short cycle times, the oil is often
 contaminated by condensation in the engine. This is exacerbated by the
 engines rarely being run under load, and even then the load is fairly
 small.  It's not uncommon to find the waxy white deposits in the bottom of
 the crankcase in these engines due to their not getting hot enough to boil
 off moisture in the crankcase.
 
 Caterpillar has a super aggressive program of analysis that helps them
 keep machines running for way longer than ever before and lowers
 maintenance costs by allowing fluids to run longer. If I had an engine
 with a sump that held 100 gallons you bet I'd want to get all I could out
 of that oil, changing it early would be crazy talk compared to running a
 $20 analysis...

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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread OK Don via Mercedes
All of my (previous) MB Diesels with at or over 200,000 miles were sampled,
and determined that at 15,000 mile change intervals they could go another
3-5k miles due to soot level. All other elements were in tolerance as well.
Bear in mind that they leaked enough oil that there were several quarts
added between changes. The plus side was that my driveway was always nice
and black and shed water like a duck's back.


On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 7:52 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

  Obviously, a worn Diesel will allow a lot
 more soot to get in the oil so maybe sampling would allow extended change
 intervals for a new tight engine.  My one remaining Diesel car may have a
 tight engine but it is far from new and my use of that car is inconsistent.
 So I change by miles or calendar (annual), whichever comes first, and skip
 sampling.  If I drove a lot of miles on that car I might have a different
 strategy.

 Scott





-- 
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread Jim Cathey via Mercedes
Some prime power stationary diesels can have centrifugal filters as 
well.


As do some small motorcycles!

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] Mobil 1 $23 at Wally World

2014-07-16 Thread OK Don via Mercedes
As did Fiats, Renaults, and Simcas in the '60s and 70's. It was in the
crank pulley. They did not have oil filters. You pulled the cover from the
crank pulley and dug out the compressed sludge.


On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 9:09 PM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 Some prime power stationary diesels can have centrifugal filters as well.


 As do some small motorcycles!

 -- Jim



-- 
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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