Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-16 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes

And the pilot was Bang Ding Ow

--R


On 7/15/14 10:43 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes wrote:

More on this story:

..A passenger reported the takeoff appeared normal initially 
until the aircraft began to rotate, the nose lifted up, however, 
nothing happened. The nose dropped again, then rose very sharply 
perhaps because of the runway end becoming visible. A sound of impact 
was heard from the back of the cabin followed by scratching sounds, 
that lasted for about 5 seconds, then the aircraft began to climb. 
During the initial climb the aircraft was shaking, the right wing 
dropped which the passenger, frequent traveller, perceived as unusual. 
The aircraft continued to climb heading north out of the Madrid area, 
no announcements were made...snip


http://www.aeroinside.com/item/2336/aeromexico-b762-at-madrid-on-apr-16th-2013-tail-strike-on-takeoff 



http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/36912-any-latest-greatest-about-delta-12858.html 



Gerry



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Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-16 Thread Randy Bennell via Mercedes
Hey, I remain impressed by the fact that the plane flew well enough to 
land it without any further problems and
amazed that with all of the technology available today, that there is 
not something that essentially prevents the pilot from doing that.


Randy

On 16/07/2014 4:47 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:

And the pilot was Bang Ding Ow

--R


On 7/15/14 10:43 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes wrote:

More on this story:

..A passenger reported the takeoff appeared normal initially 
until the aircraft began to rotate, the nose lifted up, however, 
nothing happened. The nose dropped again, then rose very sharply 
perhaps because of the runway end becoming visible. A sound of impact 
was heard from the back of the cabin followed by scratching sounds, 
that lasted for about 5 seconds, then the aircraft began to climb. 
During the initial climb the aircraft was shaking, the right wing 
dropped which the passenger, frequent traveller, perceived as 
unusual. The aircraft continued to climb heading north out of the 
Madrid area, no announcements were made...snip


http://www.aeroinside.com/item/2336/aeromexico-b762-at-madrid-on-apr-16th-2013-tail-strike-on-takeoff 



http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/36912-any-latest-greatest-about-delta-12858.html 



Gerry






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Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-16 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
Did you see the pics of the plane where the whole dang top ripped off? This 
damage is minor in comparison. The only person that died in that one was a 
stewardess that was standing up. Imagine riding back to the airport in a 
convertible...

-Curt



 From: Randy Bennell via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
To: Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net; Mercedes Discussion 
List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale
 

Hey, I remain impressed by the fact that the plane flew well enough to 
land it without any further problems and
amazed that with all of the technology available today, that there is 
not something that essentially prevents the pilot from doing that.

Randy




On 16/07/2014 4:47 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:
 And the pilot was Bang Ding Ow

 --R


 On 7/15/14 10:43 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes wrote:
 More on this story:

 ..A passenger reported the takeoff appeared normal initially 
 until the aircraft began to rotate, the nose lifted up, however, 
 nothing happened. The nose dropped again, then rose very sharply 
 perhaps because of the runway end becoming visible. A sound of impact 
 was heard from the back of the cabin followed by scratching sounds, 
 that lasted for about 5 seconds, then the aircraft began to climb. 
 During the initial climb the aircraft was shaking, the right wing 
 dropped which the passenger, frequent traveller, perceived as 
 unusual. The aircraft continued to climb heading north out of the 
 Madrid area, no announcements were made...snip

 http://www.aeroinside.com/item/2336/aeromexico-b762-at-madrid-on-apr-16th-2013-tail-strike-on-takeoff
  


 http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/36912-any-latest-greatest-about-delta-12858.html
  


 Gerry





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Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-16 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
Second officer was Wi Tu Lo

Dan

Sent from my iPad

 On Jul 16, 2014, at 5:47 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 wrote:
 
 And the pilot was Bang Ding Ow
 
 --R
 
 
 On 7/15/14 10:43 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes wrote:
 More on this story:
 
 ..A passenger reported the takeoff appeared normal initially until the 
 aircraft began to rotate, the nose lifted up, however, nothing happened. The 
 nose dropped again, then rose very sharply perhaps because of the runway end 
 becoming visible. A sound of impact was heard from the back of the cabin 
 followed by scratching sounds, that lasted for about 5 seconds, then the 
 aircraft began to climb. During the initial climb the aircraft was shaking, 
 the right wing dropped which the passenger, frequent traveller, perceived as 
 unusual. The aircraft continued to climb heading north out of the Madrid 
 area, no announcements were made...snip
 
 http://www.aeroinside.com/item/2336/aeromexico-b762-at-madrid-on-apr-16th-2013-tail-strike-on-takeoff
  
 
 http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/36912-any-latest-greatest-about-delta-12858.html
  
 
 Gerry
 
 
 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-16 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes
That was the Hawaiian 737?  Lotsa cycles on those, updownupdownupdown... 
all day long.  Salt air too.  I guess it was a testament to the airplane 
that it held together.


--R


On 7/16/14 5:56 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:

Did you see the pics of the plane where the whole dang top ripped off? This 
damage is minor in comparison. The only person that died in that one was a 
stewardess that was standing up. Imagine riding back to the airport in a 
convertible...

-Curt



  From: Randy Bennell via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
To: Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net; Mercedes Discussion List 
mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale
  


Hey, I remain impressed by the fact that the plane flew well enough to
land it without any further problems and
amazed that with all of the technology available today, that there is
not something that essentially prevents the pilot from doing that.

Randy




On 16/07/2014 4:47 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:

And the pilot was Bang Ding Ow

--R


On 7/15/14 10:43 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes wrote:

More on this story:

..A passenger reported the takeoff appeared normal initially
until the aircraft began to rotate, the nose lifted up, however,
nothing happened. The nose dropped again, then rose very sharply
perhaps because of the runway end becoming visible. A sound of impact
was heard from the back of the cabin followed by scratching sounds,
that lasted for about 5 seconds, then the aircraft began to climb.
During the initial climb the aircraft was shaking, the right wing
dropped which the passenger, frequent traveller, perceived as
unusual. The aircraft continued to climb heading north out of the
Madrid area, no announcements were made...snip

http://www.aeroinside.com/item/2336/aeromexico-b762-at-madrid-on-apr-16th-2013-tail-strike-on-takeoff


http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/36912-any-latest-greatest-about-delta-12858.html


Gerry





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Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-16 Thread Randy Bennell via Mercedes

Aloha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243

The plane had about 90K cycles which was 2.5 times the number it was 
designed for according to the article.





On 16/07/2014 5:10 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:
That was the Hawaiian 737?  Lotsa cycles on those, 
updownupdownupdown... all day long.  Salt air too.  I guess it was a 
testament to the airplane that it held together.


--R


On 7/16/14 5:56 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:
Did you see the pics of the plane where the whole dang top ripped 
off? This damage is minor in comparison. The only person that died in 
that one was a stewardess that was standing up. Imagine riding back 
to the airport in a convertible...


-Curt



  From: Randy Bennell via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
To: Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net; Mercedes 
Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com

Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

Hey, I remain impressed by the fact that the plane flew well enough to
land it without any further problems and
amazed that with all of the technology available today, that there is
not something that essentially prevents the pilot from doing that.

Randy




On 16/07/2014 4:47 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:

And the pilot was Bang Ding Ow

--R


On 7/15/14 10:43 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes wrote:

More on this story:

..A passenger reported the takeoff appeared normal initially
until the aircraft began to rotate, the nose lifted up, however,
nothing happened. The nose dropped again, then rose very sharply
perhaps because of the runway end becoming visible. A sound of impact
was heard from the back of the cabin followed by scratching sounds,
that lasted for about 5 seconds, then the aircraft began to climb.
During the initial climb the aircraft was shaking, the right wing
dropped which the passenger, frequent traveller, perceived as
unusual. The aircraft continued to climb heading north out of the
Madrid area, no announcements were made...snip

http://www.aeroinside.com/item/2336/aeromexico-b762-at-madrid-on-apr-16th-2013-tail-strike-on-takeoff 




http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/36912-any-latest-greatest-about-delta-12858.html 




Gerry





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Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-16 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes
Yeah I vaguely recalled something like that. I guess Boeings are sorta 
the Mercedes of airplanes, but the German airplanes (and French etc. 
Airbuses) not quite.


--R


On 7/16/14 6:48 PM, Randy Bennell wrote:

Aloha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243

The plane had about 90K cycles which was 2.5 times the number it was 
designed for according to the article.





On 16/07/2014 5:10 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:
That was the Hawaiian 737?  Lotsa cycles on those, 
updownupdownupdown... all day long.  Salt air too.  I guess it was a 
testament to the airplane that it held together.


--R


On 7/16/14 5:56 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:
Did you see the pics of the plane where the whole dang top ripped 
off? This damage is minor in comparison. The only person that died 
in that one was a stewardess that was standing up. Imagine riding 
back to the airport in a convertible...


-Curt



  From: Randy Bennell via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
To: Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net; Mercedes 
Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com

Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

Hey, I remain impressed by the fact that the plane flew well enough to
land it without any further problems and
amazed that with all of the technology available today, that there is
not something that essentially prevents the pilot from doing that.

Randy




On 16/07/2014 4:47 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:

And the pilot was Bang Ding Ow

--R


On 7/15/14 10:43 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes wrote:

More on this story:

..A passenger reported the takeoff appeared normal initially
until the aircraft began to rotate, the nose lifted up, however,
nothing happened. The nose dropped again, then rose very sharply
perhaps because of the runway end becoming visible. A sound of impact
was heard from the back of the cabin followed by scratching sounds,
that lasted for about 5 seconds, then the aircraft began to climb.
During the initial climb the aircraft was shaking, the right wing
dropped which the passenger, frequent traveller, perceived as
unusual. The aircraft continued to climb heading north out of the
Madrid area, no announcements were made...snip

http://www.aeroinside.com/item/2336/aeromexico-b762-at-madrid-on-apr-16th-2013-tail-strike-on-takeoff 




http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/36912-any-latest-greatest-about-delta-12858.html 




Gerry





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Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-16 Thread Mountain Man via Mercedes
How about this thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzr313wSY_Y
mao

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-15 Thread Jon Agne via Mercedes
Holy Batman!  I’ve been flying 757-767’s for 8 years now, and have never seen 
anything like that.  I can’t believe they didn’t feel it.  Oh well.

Jon


On Jul 14, 2014, at 6:47 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
wrote:

 See the photo at the end.  
 
 Narrative:
 
 An Aeromexico Boeing 767-200, registration XA-TOJ performing flight AM-2
 from Madrid,SP (Spain) to Mexico City (Mexico), was rotating for takeoff
 from Madrid's runway 36L when the tail of the aircraft contacted the runway
 surface leaving debris behind. The crew continued the takeoff and climb,
 levelled off and descended only after the oxygen masks were released, then
 entered a hold to burn off fuel and returned to Madrid for a safe landing
 about 90 minutes after departure. Two cabin crew received injuries, the
 aircraft sustained substantial damage.
 
 An Air Europa Airbus A330 departing after the Aeromexico received nose gear
 tyre damage while departing over the debris left by the Boeing and needed to
 return, too, see Incident: Air Europa A332 at Madrid on Apr 16th 2013,
 damaged nose gear tyres on takeoff.
 
 Air Traffic Control reported the aircraft climbed out without any comment,
 later into the departure climb the crew indicated they had cabin pressure
 problems and needed to return to Madrid. There was no mention of the
 possibility of a tail strike and no mention of injuries on board. The tower
 controller had not been able to see the tail contact the runway surface
 about 4km from his position, between the Aeromexico and Air Europa there
 were a few other departures without any problems.
 
 On May 3rd 2013 Spain's CIAIAC reported the three flight attendants seated
 in the rear galley heard strange noises during takeoff. When they proceeded
 to inform the flight deck about the noises the flight crew already prepared
 to return to Madrid due to the cabin pressure problems at 14,000 feet. Then
 the passenger oxygen masks were released. The crew informed ATC about cabin
 pressure problems 22 minutes after departure. Two of the three cabin crew in
 the aft galley complained about neck pain. The aircraft received substantial
 damage to the lower fuselage including the near complete loss of both APU
 compartment doors. The Air Europa A332 departed 29 minutes after departure
 of XA-TOJ as 7th aircraft following XA-TOJ. The runway inspection following
 that departure recovered two metallic pieces of debris from the runway.
 
 The visual:  http://pt709.synology.me/ouch.png
 
 
 
 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-15 Thread archer75--- via Mercedes
On a rough runway; something like one of the old Hartsfield runways in 
Atlanta?
Seems like there should be a warning sensor in the tail that provided 
time to slow the rotation.

Gerry

On 7/15/2014 6:35 AM, Jon Agne via Mercedes wrote:

Holy Batman!  I’ve been flying 757-767’s for 8 years now, and have never seen 
anything like that.  I can’t believe they didn’t feel it.  Oh well.

Jon


On Jul 14, 2014, at 6:47 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
wrote:


See the photo at the end.

Narrative:

An Aeromexico Boeing 767-200, registration XA-TOJ performing flight AM-2
from Madrid,SP (Spain) to Mexico City (Mexico), was rotating for takeoff
from Madrid's runway 36L when the tail of the aircraft contacted the runway
surface leaving debris behind. The crew continued the takeoff and climb,
levelled off and descended only after the oxygen masks were released, then
entered a hold to burn off fuel and returned to Madrid for a safe landing
about 90 minutes after departure. Two cabin crew received injuries, the
aircraft sustained substantial damage.

An Air Europa Airbus A330 departing after the Aeromexico received nose gear
tyre damage while departing over the debris left by the Boeing and needed to
return, too, see Incident: Air Europa A332 at Madrid on Apr 16th 2013,
damaged nose gear tyres on takeoff.

Air Traffic Control reported the aircraft climbed out without any comment,
later into the departure climb the crew indicated they had cabin pressure
problems and needed to return to Madrid. There was no mention of the
possibility of a tail strike and no mention of injuries on board. The tower
controller had not been able to see the tail contact the runway surface
about 4km from his position, between the Aeromexico and Air Europa there
were a few other departures without any problems.

On May 3rd 2013 Spain's CIAIAC reported the three flight attendants seated
in the rear galley heard strange noises during takeoff. When they proceeded
to inform the flight deck about the noises the flight crew already prepared
to return to Madrid due to the cabin pressure problems at 14,000 feet. Then
the passenger oxygen masks were released. The crew informed ATC about cabin
pressure problems 22 minutes after departure. Two of the three cabin crew in
the aft galley complained about neck pain. The aircraft received substantial
damage to the lower fuselage including the near complete loss of both APU
compartment doors. The Air Europa A332 departed 29 minutes after departure
of XA-TOJ as 7th aircraft following XA-TOJ. The runway inspection following
that departure recovered two metallic pieces of debris from the runway.

The visual:  http://pt709.synology.me/ouch.png




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Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-15 Thread M. Mitchell Marmel via Mercedes
On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 6:00 AM, archer75--- via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 On a rough runway; something like one of the old Hartsfield runways in
 Atlanta?
 Seems like there should be a warning sensor in the tail that provided time
 to slow the rotation.


Or put a tailwheel on the beastie...  ;-)

-MMM-
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-15 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes


So, what's the desired takeoff angle of attack, and at what angle does the tail 
hit the ground?


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-15 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes

Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:


So, what's the desired takeoff angle of attack, and at what angle does 
the tail hit the ground?


Interesting.
One guy says he has to duck to walk under the tail of a parked 767-300, another 
says that many idiots just yank the stick back and hold it there until the 
wheels leave the runway, and yet another guy mentions that landing with spoilers 
increases AOA. Is there really a situation in which you want to touch down with 
spoilers deployed? Seems like a good way to increase touchdown speed and hence 
rollout distance.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/3816449/

Some discussion from Boeing:
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_04/textonly/tr01txt.html
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_1_07/article_02_1.html

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-15 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes

That'll buff right out

--R

On 7/14/14 6:47 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:

See the photo at the end.

Narrative:

An Aeromexico Boeing 767-200, registration XA-TOJ performing flight AM-2
from Madrid,SP (Spain) to Mexico City (Mexico), was rotating for takeoff
from Madrid's runway 36L when the tail of the aircraft contacted the runway
surface leaving debris behind. The crew continued the takeoff and climb,
levelled off and descended only after the oxygen masks were released, then
entered a hold to burn off fuel and returned to Madrid for a safe landing
about 90 minutes after departure. Two cabin crew received injuries, the
aircraft sustained substantial damage.

An Air Europa Airbus A330 departing after the Aeromexico received nose gear
tyre damage while departing over the debris left by the Boeing and needed to
return, too, see Incident: Air Europa A332 at Madrid on Apr 16th 2013,
damaged nose gear tyres on takeoff.

Air Traffic Control reported the aircraft climbed out without any comment,
later into the departure climb the crew indicated they had cabin pressure
problems and needed to return to Madrid. There was no mention of the
possibility of a tail strike and no mention of injuries on board. The tower
controller had not been able to see the tail contact the runway surface
about 4km from his position, between the Aeromexico and Air Europa there
were a few other departures without any problems.

On May 3rd 2013 Spain's CIAIAC reported the three flight attendants seated
in the rear galley heard strange noises during takeoff. When they proceeded
to inform the flight deck about the noises the flight crew already prepared
to return to Madrid due to the cabin pressure problems at 14,000 feet. Then
the passenger oxygen masks were released. The crew informed ATC about cabin
pressure problems 22 minutes after departure. Two of the three cabin crew in
the aft galley complained about neck pain. The aircraft received substantial
damage to the lower fuselage including the near complete loss of both APU
compartment doors. The Air Europa A332 departed 29 minutes after departure
of XA-TOJ as 7th aircraft following XA-TOJ. The runway inspection following
that departure recovered two metallic pieces of debris from the runway.

The visual:  http://pt709.synology.me/ouch.png




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Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-15 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes
This is better 
http://www.wired.com/2014/07/watch-test-pilots-push-the-new-boeing-jet-to-terrifying-limits/


--R

On 7/15/14 7:55 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:


So, what's the desired takeoff angle of attack, and at what angle 
does the tail hit the ground?


Interesting.
One guy says he has to duck to walk under the tail of a parked 
767-300, another says that many idiots just yank the stick back and 
hold it there until the wheels leave the runway, and yet another guy 
mentions that landing with spoilers increases AOA. Is there really a 
situation in which you want to touch down with spoilers deployed? 
Seems like a good way to increase touchdown speed and hence rollout 
distance.
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/3816449/ 



Some discussion from Boeing:
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_04/textonly/tr01txt.html 

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_1_07/article_02_1.html 



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contributor.





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Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-15 Thread Randy Bennell via Mercedes

On 15/07/2014 5:35 AM, Jon Agne via Mercedes wrote:

Holy Batman!  I’ve been flying 757-767’s for 8 years now, and have never seen 
anything like that.  I can’t believe they didn’t feel it.  Oh well.

Jon




They just didn't want to admit it.

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-15 Thread Fmiser via Mercedes
  Scott Ritchey wrote:
 
  An Aeromexico Boeing 767-200, ... was rotating for takeoff from
  Madrid's runway 36L when the tail of the aircraft contacted the
  runway surface leaving debris behind. 

 Jon wrote:
 
 Holy Batman!  I’ve been flying 757-767’s for 8 years now, and
 have never seen anything like that.  I can’t believe they didn’t
 feel it. 

Isn't rotating for takeoff just turning around at the end of the
runway?  How did they get the tail to hit the runway?  Doing
wheelies? (I know, only possible with the thrust axis below the
center of gravity)  Or is the runway have a big hill right there?

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-15 Thread G Mann via Mercedes
Rotating for takeoff refers to the airplane rotating at the center of
lift, which at takeoff will be the approximate centerline of the wings,
ie.. nose up, tail down, to increase the angle of attack of the wings,
generate greater lift, and defeat gravity temporarily, also known as
flight.

Large, Heavy, Airline size aircraft have takeoff rotation angle limits
which, if followed by the ever attentive flight deck crew, prevent the tail
from striking the ground from to high deck angle... It is possible to
rotate the aircraft with such force it will break the tail off, or in a
couple cases.. the entire back portion of the aircraft... Ooops..

It's called Major structural damage and requires the airplane to be put
out of service for long period or in some cases.. scrapped.  In any case..
your next job application is at the unemployment office.


On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Fmiser via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 wrote:

   Scott Ritchey wrote:
  
   An Aeromexico Boeing 767-200, ... was rotating for takeoff from
   Madrid's runway 36L when the tail of the aircraft contacted the
   runway surface leaving debris behind.

  Jon wrote:
 
  Holy Batman!  I’ve been flying 757-767’s for 8 years now, and
  have never seen anything like that.  I can’t believe they didn’t
  feel it.

 Isn't rotating for takeoff just turning around at the end of the
 runway?  How did they get the tail to hit the runway?  Doing
 wheelies? (I know, only possible with the thrust axis below the
 center of gravity)  Or is the runway have a big hill right there?

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-15 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes
Actually, initially, it is rotating about the wheel or bogey axles, more 
or less, to get the nose up to generate more angle of attack and more 
lift.  This guy rotated it a bit much before the wheels got off the 
ground, or maybe shortly after.


The old 727s would slowly do that on the ground if the plane was being 
refueled and the guy who was supposed to be opening and closing various 
tank valves left the aft tank valve open and closed the others.  Not 
that I would directly know anything about that...


--R


On 7/15/14 2:34 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

Rotating for takeoff refers to the airplane rotating at the center of
lift, which at takeoff will be the approximate centerline of the wings,
ie.. nose up, tail down, to increase the angle of attack of the wings,
generate greater lift, and defeat gravity temporarily, also known as
flight.



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Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-15 Thread Fmiser via Mercedes
Scott Ritchey wrote:
   
An Aeromexico Boeing 767-200, ... was rotating for takeoff
from Madrid's runway 36L when the tail of the aircraft
contacted the runway surface leaving debris behind.
 
   Jon wrote:
  
   Holy Batman!  I’ve been flying 757-767’s for 8 years now, and
   have never seen anything like that.  I can’t believe they
   didn’t feel it.

  Fmiser wrote:
 
  Isn't rotating for takeoff just turning around at the end of
  the runway?  How did they get the tail to hit the runway?  Doing
  wheelies? (I know, only possible with the thrust axis below the
  center of gravity)  Or is the runway have a big hill right
  there?

 G wrote:
 
 Rotating for takeoff refers to the airplane rotating at the
 center of lift, which at takeoff will be the approximate
 centerline of the wings, ie.. nose up, tail down, to increase the
 angle of attack of the wings, generate greater lift, 

Got it.  Thanks Grant.  I'm familiar with the action, and certainly
seen it many times, but I didn't know the term.  I'd better be
careful - too much more of this and I'll be smart! *grin*  

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-15 Thread Jon Agne via Mercedes
The 727 was sensitive to CG on the ground, but it was never fueling that caused 
any of that.  It was mostly loading passengers with nothing in the cargo bins.  
That was why Delta had a policy of leaving the aft stairs down until loading 
was almost complete.

As far as 757-767’s go, it about 2-2.5 degrees/second that gets you exactly 
where you want to be.  Good tail clearance, clean liftoff, and good rate-of 
climb.

Best,

Jon


On Jul 15, 2014, at 2:41 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
wrote:

 Actually, initially, it is rotating about the wheel or bogey axles, more or 
 less, to get the nose up to generate more angle of attack and more lift.  
 This guy rotated it a bit much before the wheels got off the ground, or maybe 
 shortly after.
 
 The old 727s would slowly do that on the ground if the plane was being 
 refueled and the guy who was supposed to be opening and closing various tank 
 valves left the aft tank valve open and closed the others.  Not that I would 
 directly know anything about that...
 
 --R
 
 
 On 7/15/14 2:34 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:
 Rotating for takeoff refers to the airplane rotating at the center of
 lift, which at takeoff will be the approximate centerline of the wings,
 ie.. nose up, tail down, to increase the angle of attack of the wings,
 generate greater lift, and defeat gravity temporarily, also known as
 flight.
 
 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Another Fkying Tale

2014-07-14 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
Certainly makes it easier to work on the APU now.

Dan always looking for a bright side...


On Jul 14, 2014, at 6:47 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
wrote:

 See the photo at the end.  
 
 Narrative:
 
 An Aeromexico Boeing 767-200, registration XA-TOJ performing flight AM-2
 from Madrid,SP (Spain) to Mexico City (Mexico), was rotating for takeoff
 from Madrid's runway 36L when the tail of the aircraft contacted the runway
 surface leaving debris behind. The crew continued the takeoff and climb,
 levelled off and descended only after the oxygen masks were released, then
 entered a hold to burn off fuel and returned to Madrid for a safe landing
 about 90 minutes after departure. Two cabin crew received injuries, the
 aircraft sustained substantial damage.
 
 An Air Europa Airbus A330 departing after the Aeromexico received nose gear
 tyre damage while departing over the debris left by the Boeing and needed to
 return, too, see Incident: Air Europa A332 at Madrid on Apr 16th 2013,
 damaged nose gear tyres on takeoff.
 
 Air Traffic Control reported the aircraft climbed out without any comment,
 later into the departure climb the crew indicated they had cabin pressure
 problems and needed to return to Madrid. There was no mention of the
 possibility of a tail strike and no mention of injuries on board. The tower
 controller had not been able to see the tail contact the runway surface
 about 4km from his position, between the Aeromexico and Air Europa there
 were a few other departures without any problems.
 
 On May 3rd 2013 Spain's CIAIAC reported the three flight attendants seated
 in the rear galley heard strange noises during takeoff. When they proceeded
 to inform the flight deck about the noises the flight crew already prepared
 to return to Madrid due to the cabin pressure problems at 14,000 feet. Then
 the passenger oxygen masks were released. The crew informed ATC about cabin
 pressure problems 22 minutes after departure. Two of the three cabin crew in
 the aft galley complained about neck pain. The aircraft received substantial
 damage to the lower fuselage including the near complete loss of both APU
 compartment doors. The Air Europa A332 departed 29 minutes after departure
 of XA-TOJ as 7th aircraft following XA-TOJ. The runway inspection following
 that departure recovered two metallic pieces of debris from the runway.
 
 The visual:  http://pt709.synology.me/ouch.png
 
 
 
 
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