Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity ethics

2015-07-24 Thread Curly McLain via Mercedes
I am so so glad I went to a small state college. I read about 
schools indoctrinating students and refusing to listen to other 
points of view and I'm horrified, that was not my experience at all. 
We were encouraged to disagree with our teachers, if you could back 
up your point they'd listen.Part of it, I suspect, is the program of 
study, in film and video if it looks good it is good. Broke a rule 
but got away with it? Awesome, good for you. Break a rule and the 
finished product sucks? Back to the drawing board. The other nice 
thing was that failure is just a learning experience that makes your 
next project better, nobody is perfect the first time and because of 
that we were encouraged to experiment which then made you better.
The kids in more conventional fields of study hated us. I had one 
design class where for a month we worked with crayons. Yeah crayons. 
You go out and try to make a crayon drawing that doesn't look like a 
crayon drawing and tell me how easy it is...

-Curt



Tain't so anymore.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity ethics

2015-07-24 Thread Curly McLain via Mercedes
I would have an interesting story to tell about the wages of sin at 
UNC-CH, outside the whole football program, but it would violate my 
integrity to do so, so I won't.


But in universities, independent simple solutions are not 
acceptable, the school has to form committees to beat the issue to 
death and then come up with something that doesn't address the issue 
because actually doing so might offend someone.  Goes double for 
integrity because that is not valued much any more unless it fits 
some other agenda.


--R


You nailed that!

The other alternative is to make illegal threats to student,staff, 
faculty who know anything about the illegal/unethical activity,and 
sweep it under the rug.  I'm thinking it is about time to find my box 
of evidence and start making noise about 20 year old illegal actions. 
This approach is generally applied by the Univ to illegal activities 
they DON'T want discussed, because in the official doublespeek, it 
never happened


BTDT.  It ain't pretty!

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Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity ethics

2015-07-24 Thread Curly McLain via Mercedes

Having worked at a big 10 school and an SEC school I totally agree and i
would abolish the NCAA.


We had George Jefferson.  He looked and sounded like George 
Jefferson on the Movin on up TV show.  He real name was George. 
His last name was different but similar.


George's job was to pressure profs and TAs to make sure athaelites 
passed classes by any means (all condoned) and to make sure those of 
certain equal pigmentation passed classes and gragitated, using any 
means possible  (also condoned)


Before I could gragitate with an advanced degree (debris?) i was 
forced to go in and get a signature from George Jefferson.  It turned 
my stomach.  It turned my stomach to have to go in there and look at 
this little being  (not a man) and grovel for a signature.  It was 
very difficult to not speak the truth and just grovel for the 
signature.


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Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity ethics

2015-07-24 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
Why does Penn State come to mind right now?

I worked at a major university for a couple of years while I attended school 
there.  While there can be some pretty sordid things that go on in the 
corporate world, I was stunned at some of the things I heard and saw while I 
was working there.  Convinced me it was not a long term thing for me….

Dan


 On Jul 24, 2015, at 2:00 PM, Curly McLain via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 I would have an interesting story to tell about the wages of sin at UNC-CH, 
 outside the whole football program, but it would violate my integrity to do 
 so, so I won't.
 
 But in universities, independent simple solutions are not acceptable, the 
 school has to form committees to beat the issue to death and then come up 
 with something that doesn't address the issue because actually doing so 
 might offend someone.  Goes double for integrity because that is not 
 valued much any more unless it fits some other agenda.
 
 --R
 
 You nailed that!
 
 The other alternative is to make illegal threats to student,staff, faculty 
 who know anything about the illegal/unethical activity,and sweep it under the 
 rug.  I'm thinking it is about time to find my box of evidence and start 
 making noise about 20 year old illegal actions. This approach is generally 
 applied by the Univ to illegal activities they DON'T want discussed, because 
 in the official doublespeek, it never happened
 
 BTDT.  It ain't pretty!
 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity ethics

2015-07-24 Thread Curly McLain via Mercedes

+1

+1

Fred Moir.Lynn MA.Diesel preferred.


 To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 14:07:16 -0400
 Subject: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity  ethics
 From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
 CC: wilt...@nc.rr.com

 Re. the unsavory crap (sham, paper, classes) going on for nearly 
20 years at UNC-CH to accommodate athletes, an article in today's 
Raleigh News and Observer, discusses two working groups 
(committee's) looking at UNC integrity and policies.  Co-chair 
said that they first want to define integrity.  To save 'em 
possibly several weeks of haggling, I'm volunteering my definition 
of it learned on Momma and Daddy's laps and at their knees nearly 
80 years ago - put simply, integrity is the ability to do what is 
right when nobody else is watching.



  Wilton


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Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity ethics

2015-07-24 Thread Curly McLain via Mercedes
Re. the unsavory crap (sham, paper, classes) going on for nearly 
20 years at UNC-CH to accommodate athletes, an article in today's 
Raleigh News and Observer, discusses two working groups 
(committee's) looking at UNC integrity and policies.  Co-chair 
said that they first want to define integrity.  To save 'em 
possibly several weeks of haggling, I'm volunteering my definition 
of it learned on Momma and Daddy's laps and at their knees nearly 80 
years ago - put simply, integrity is the ability to do what is right 
when nobody else is watching.


Wilton


Hear Here!  (stomping a a cane on the floor)

Attaboy!

I nominate Wilton for pres, chancellor or whatever they call the head 
honkey at UNC, and/or chair of the board of regents or whatever body 
is supposed to oversee the universities for the State!


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Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity ethics

2015-07-24 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
T'is where I went to school. I know the head of the department, he was just 
starting out when I was about halfway through school. We talk about the old 
days and very little has changed there base curriculum wise. The tools are 
different now but the theory is the same. We also get a number of interns from 
there where I work now. They come out as good as ever, of course you get the 
occasional knuckle head but the internship program is kind of a last quality 
control check...
-Curt
  From: Curly McLain 126die...@gmail.com
 To: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com; Mercedes Discussion List 
mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 2:01 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity  ethics
   


I am so so glad I went to a small state college. I read about 
schools indoctrinating students and refusing to listen to other 
points of view and I'm horrified, that was not my experience at all. 
We were encouraged to disagree with our teachers, if you could back 
up your point they'd listen.Part of it, I suspect, is the program of 
study, in film and video if it looks good it is good. Broke a rule 
but got away with it? Awesome, good for you. Break a rule and the 
finished product sucks? Back to the drawing board. The other nice 
thing was that failure is just a learning experience that makes your 
next project better, nobody is perfect the first time and because of 
that we were encouraged to experiment which then made you better.
The kids in more conventional fields of study hated us. I had one 
design class where for a month we worked with crayons. Yeah crayons. 
You go out and try to make a crayon drawing that doesn't look like a 
crayon drawing and tell me how easy it is...
-Curt


Tain't so anymore.


   
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Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity ethics

2015-07-24 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes


 On July 24, 2015 at 12:55 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 wrote:
 
 
 Why does Penn State come to mind right now?

You mean the place where a former assistant coach kept raping little boys in the
locker room long after he retired?

Where the so-called whistleblower, upon finding a felony in progress (retiree
sodomizing a boy who appeared to be ten years old), ran home to phone his daddy
for advise on what to do about it, before waiting until the next day to inform
school officials (not campus police) what he saw?

The worst part of it is, if the testicle deficient young man who witnessed the
rape had done the right thing (tackle the rapist and call the police to come get
feces/blood samples off the guy's penis for DNA testing) he probably would never
get another job in a university setting again.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity ethics

2015-07-23 Thread Mountain Man via Mercedes
Curt wrote:
 ...Broke a rule but got away with it? Awesome, good for you.

And we wonder where innovation and invention have gone?
Education should sponsor innovation and invention.  If all we do is
repeat the past, where is future?  Your idea is the statement entirely
of why I love hackers.  NO, I don't like my bank account gone, but I
barely have an account.  Wrong is wrong, but the innovation and
invention to get ahold of the account info is really the basis for
innovation.  Bill Gates, Steve Jobs did not learn their stuff in the
rigor of classroom work.  See Triumph of the Nerds.  A bit of
corousing and beer - next step is NextStep, MS, Apple.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity ethics

2015-07-23 Thread Mountain Man via Mercedes
WILTON wrote:
 ...put simply, integrity is the ability to do what is right when nobody else 
 is watching.

Maybe it is missing universally.
Construction zone is 45mph - I can do that instead of risk $375 fine.
Many pass at higher speed, just to stop 3 miles ahead at light -
what's the sense?  Is 45mph that hard?  Same goes for manufacturing,
i.e. see the NUMI plant article I gave for Jaime.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity ethics

2015-07-23 Thread Mountain Man via Mercedes
RB wrote:
...you cannot get a job anywhere unless you are reasonably
 proficient in Autocad (or the newer version, - Ribbit or something like
 that).

Revit.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity ethics

2015-07-23 Thread Mountain Man via Mercedes
Rick wrote:
 Sorry for the lengthy off topic diatribe.

Nope - totally ontopic, and you know it.
Now, go see Gonzo and speak some more.
Anyone else also - see the movie Gonzo.  A documentary about HST -
Hunter S Thompson.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity ethics

2015-07-23 Thread Mountain Man via Mercedes
fmiser wrote:
 I would amend that just a bit because the integrity does
 not strictly include anything about what is right.  And
 since each of us will have a slightly (or not so slight?)
 difference of opinion about what is right.

Yes!!
Uniformity sucks.
Diversity rules.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity ethics

2015-07-23 Thread WILTON via Mercedes

ATTABOY!

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: Curt Raymond via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com

To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity  ethics


I am so so glad I went to a small state college. I read about schools 
indoctrinating students and refusing to listen to other points of view and 
I'm horrified, that was not my experience at all. We were encouraged to 
disagree with our teachers, if you could back up your point they'd 
listen.Part of it, I suspect, is the program of study, in film and video if 
it looks good it is good. Broke a rule but got away with it? Awesome, good 
for you. Break a rule and the finished product sucks? Back to the drawing 
board. The other nice thing was that failure is just a learning experience 
that makes your next project better, nobody is perfect the first time and 
because of that we were encouraged to experiment which then made you 
better.
The kids in more conventional fields of study hated us. I had one design 
class where for a month we worked with crayons. Yeah crayons. You go out 
and try to make a crayon drawing that doesn't look like a crayon drawing 
and tell me how easy it is...

-Curt
 From: Rich Thomas via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity  ethics

I would have an interesting story to tell about the wages of sin at
UNC-CH, outside the whole football program, but it would violate my
integrity to do so, so I won't.

But in universities, independent simple solutions are not acceptable,
the school has to form committees to beat the issue to death and then
come up with something that doesn't address the issue because actually
doing so might offend someone. Goes double for integrity because that
is not valued much any more unless it fits some other agenda.

--R



On 7/23/15 2:07 PM, WILTON via Mercedes wrote:
Re. the unsavory crap (sham, paper, classes) going on for nearly 20 
years at UNC-CH to accommodate athletes, an article in today's Raleigh 
News and Observer, discusses two working groups (committee's) 
looking at UNC integrity and policies. Co-chair said that they first 
want to define integrity. To save 'em possibly several weeks of 
haggling, I'm volunteering my definition of it learned on Momma and 
Daddy's laps and at their knees nearly 80 years ago - put simply, 
integrity is the ability to do what is right when nobody else is 
watching.


Wilton

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Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity ethics

2015-07-23 Thread Randy Bennell via Mercedes

On 23/07/2015 1:58 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:

I am so so glad I went to a small state college . . . . I had one design class 
where for a month we worked with crayons. Yeah crayons. You go out and try to 
make a crayon drawing that doesn't look like a crayon drawing and tell me how 
easy it is...
-Curt
  
Sounds a bit like some of the things my elder son did in Architecture. 
The exact wording of the one assignment escapes me but it was to make 
something out of unconventional materials (or something like that in any 
event). I came up with the idea for him. He made a coffee cup out of 
ground coffee. He mixed white glue into ground coffee and formed it 
around a cup so that it looked as though the whole cup was made of coffee.
We made a very simple 3 sided box without a top out of white melamine 
coated particle board to display it in. It looked pretty cool and 
smelled good too.


One of the profs left a written comment that it was oddly beautiful or 
something like that. It was appreciated as one of the better entries.


On another project, they were instructed to go and look at some semi 
abandoned building here in town. They were then supposed to make a model 
to illustrate some rehab of it.
Geoff went and took photos of the building from all sides and photo 
shopped them and printed the photos and glued them onto white foam board 
and created a very realistic version of the building.
No one else had done such a thing and the profs were all truly amazed. 
There was a lot of interest in it.
Strangely enough, they later decided that  they did not want students to 
do that again. They preferred hand drawn and rendered artwork.


This is the same school that does not teach Autocad even though it is 
well known that you cannot get a job anywhere unless you are reasonably 
proficient in Autocad (or the newer version, - Ribbit or something like 
that).
Geoff was quite computer proficient and he taught himself enough to pass 
the firm's basic test and get hired on as a summer student to begin with 
and then later as an intern once he got his Master's degree.


RB

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Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity ethics

2015-07-23 Thread Dwight Giles via Mercedes
Having worked at a big 10 school and an SEC school I totally agree and i
would abolish the NCAA.
On Jul 23, 2015 2:23 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

 As far as I'm concerned athletics has no place in college beyond the
 intramural level. The idea of college sports as quasi professional is
 completely at odds with the real job of college which is education. As long
 as there is money to be made in college sports there will be abuse of the
 system. At best its a distraction and worst it turns college into a total
 sham and makes a degree worthless.
 -Curt
   From: WILTON via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
  To: mercedes list mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Cc: WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com
  Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 2:07 PM
  Subject: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity  ethics

 Re. the unsavory crap (sham, paper, classes) going on for nearly 20
 years at UNC-CH to accommodate athletes, an article in today's Raleigh
 News and Observer, discusses two working groups (committee's) looking
 at UNC integrity and policies.  Co-chair said that they first want to
 define integrity.  To save 'em possibly several weeks of haggling, I'm
 volunteering my definition of it learned on Momma and Daddy's laps and at
 their knees nearly 80 years ago - put simply, integrity is the ability to
 do what is right when nobody else is watching.

 Wilton

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Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity ethics

2015-07-23 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
I am so so glad I went to a small state college. I read about schools 
indoctrinating students and refusing to listen to other points of view and I'm 
horrified, that was not my experience at all. We were encouraged to disagree 
with our teachers, if you could back up your point they'd listen.Part of it, I 
suspect, is the program of study, in film and video if it looks good it is 
good. Broke a rule but got away with it? Awesome, good for you. Break a rule 
and the finished product sucks? Back to the drawing board. The other nice thing 
was that failure is just a learning experience that makes your next project 
better, nobody is perfect the first time and because of that we were encouraged 
to experiment which then made you better.
The kids in more conventional fields of study hated us. I had one design 
class where for a month we worked with crayons. Yeah crayons. You go out and 
try to make a crayon drawing that doesn't look like a crayon drawing and tell 
me how easy it is...
-Curt
  From: Rich Thomas via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: mercedes@okiebenz.com 
Cc: Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net 
 Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 2:51 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity  ethics
   
I would have an interesting story to tell about the wages of sin at 
UNC-CH, outside the whole football program, but it would violate my 
integrity to do so, so I won't.

But in universities, independent simple solutions are not acceptable, 
the school has to form committees to beat the issue to death and then 
come up with something that doesn't address the issue because actually 
doing so might offend someone.  Goes double for integrity because that 
is not valued much any more unless it fits some other agenda.

--R



On 7/23/15 2:07 PM, WILTON via Mercedes wrote:
 Re. the unsavory crap (sham, paper, classes) going on for nearly 20 years 
 at UNC-CH to accommodate athletes, an article in today's Raleigh News and 
 Observer, discusses two working groups (committee's) looking at UNC 
 integrity and policies.  Co-chair said that they first want to define 
 integrity.  To save 'em possibly several weeks of haggling, I'm volunteering 
 my definition of it learned on Momma and Daddy's laps and at their knees 
 nearly 80 years ago - put simply, integrity is the ability to do what is 
 right when nobody else is watching.

 Wilton

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Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity ethics

2015-07-23 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
As far as I'm concerned athletics has no place in college beyond the intramural 
level. The idea of college sports as quasi professional is completely at odds 
with the real job of college which is education. As long as there is money to 
be made in college sports there will be abuse of the system. At best its a 
distraction and worst it turns college into a total sham and makes a degree 
worthless.
-Curt
  From: WILTON via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: mercedes list mercedes@okiebenz.com 
Cc: WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com 
 Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 2:07 PM
 Subject: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity  ethics
   
Re. the unsavory crap (sham, paper, classes) going on for nearly 20 years at 
UNC-CH to accommodate athletes, an article in today's Raleigh News and 
Observer, discusses two working groups (committee's) looking at UNC 
integrity and policies.  Co-chair said that they first want to define 
integrity.  To save 'em possibly several weeks of haggling, I'm volunteering 
my definition of it learned on Momma and Daddy's laps and at their knees nearly 
80 years ago - put simply, integrity is the ability to do what is right when 
nobody else is watching.

Wilton

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Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity ethics

2015-07-23 Thread Fred Moir via Mercedes
+1

Fred Moir.Lynn MA.Diesel preferred.

 To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 14:07:16 -0400
 Subject: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity  ethics
 From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
 CC: wilt...@nc.rr.com
 
 Re. the unsavory crap (sham, paper, classes) going on for nearly 20 years 
 at UNC-CH to accommodate athletes, an article in today's Raleigh News and 
 Observer, discusses two working groups (committee's) looking at UNC 
 integrity and policies.  Co-chair said that they first want to define 
 integrity.  To save 'em possibly several weeks of haggling, I'm volunteering 
 my definition of it learned on Momma and Daddy's laps and at their knees 
 nearly 80 years ago - put simply, integrity is the ability to do what is 
 right when nobody else is watching.
 
 Wilton
  
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Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity ethics

2015-07-23 Thread WILTON via Mercedes

'Been my thoughts on the subject, too, for more than 60 years.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: Curt Raymond via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com

To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity  ethics


As far as I'm concerned athletics has no place in college beyond the 
intramural level. The idea of college sports as quasi professional is 
completely at odds with the real job of college which is education. As 
long as there is money to be made in college sports there will be abuse of 
the system. At best its a distraction and worst it turns college into a 
total sham and makes a degree worthless.

-Curt
 From: WILTON via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
To: mercedes list mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 2:07 PM
Subject: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity  ethics

Re. the unsavory crap (sham, paper, classes) going on for nearly 20 
years at UNC-CH to accommodate athletes, an article in today's Raleigh 
News and Observer, discusses two working groups (committee's) looking 
at UNC integrity and policies. Co-chair said that they first want to 
define integrity. To save 'em possibly several weeks of haggling, I'm 
volunteering my definition of it learned on Momma and Daddy's laps and at 
their knees nearly 80 years ago - put simply, integrity is the ability to 
do what is right when nobody else is watching.


Wilton

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Re: [MBZ] OT - UNC-CH integrity ethics

2015-07-23 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes
I would have an interesting story to tell about the wages of sin at 
UNC-CH, outside the whole football program, but it would violate my 
integrity to do so, so I won't.


But in universities, independent simple solutions are not acceptable, 
the school has to form committees to beat the issue to death and then 
come up with something that doesn't address the issue because actually 
doing so might offend someone.  Goes double for integrity because that 
is not valued much any more unless it fits some other agenda.


--R



On 7/23/15 2:07 PM, WILTON via Mercedes wrote:

Re. the unsavory crap (sham, paper, classes) going on for nearly 20 years at UNC-CH to accommodate athletes, an 
article in today's Raleigh News and Observer, discusses two working groups (committee's) looking at 
UNC integrity and policies.  Co-chair said that they first want to define integrity.  To save 'em possibly 
several weeks of haggling, I'm volunteering my definition of it learned on Momma and Daddy's laps and at their knees nearly 80 
years ago - put simply, integrity is the ability to do what is right when nobody else is watching.

Wilton

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