Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[OK Don via Mercedes]

What do you expect? They carry that heavy sidearm all the time, that must
make them itching to use it sometime . . . .

Do you take photos of them parked in front of the fire hydrant and their
activities at the time and post them, or send them to the newspaper/TV
station?

On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 1:39 PM, clay monroe via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Cops do not follow the rules or laws any better than civilians.
>
> They may be trained well, but tend to go for lethal force first chance
> they have.
>
> 
>
> clay
>
>
>

-- 
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[clay monroe via Mercedes]

Good thing we have open carry around here

clay 

1974 450sl -  Frosch - Two tone green
1986 SDL - Polei
1982 300 SD - Allen

retired models-
2002 s430 - Victor, a Stately & well tailored crap
1976 300D - Blei Vanst - it looks silvery
1972 220D - Gump - She was green, simple and ran
1995 E300D - Gave her life to save me against a Dame in a SUV
POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers







> On May 14, 2018, at 9:56 AM, Dan--- via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> In Florida, if you have a CWP as I do, exposing or showing your firearm while 
> carrying is a misdemeanor and the basis for revocation of your CWP.
> 
> You never, ever “show”unless you plan on using it.  One more part of the 
> process to make it a very conscious effort to decide when to use that 
> concealed weapon.
> 
> -D 
> 
>> On May 14, 2018, at 12:51 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> But how much more often are the police placed in the position where they 
>> must make that choice? Amateurs don't appear to be involved all that often.
>> I have heard it said that one never shows one's gun unless one intends to 
>> use it forthwith. Maybe the good guys just don't want to get involved in 
>> many cases.
>> If it all turns out bad, then the good guy just became the bad guy. That 
>> sort of thing can be very expensive and very disruptive to one's life.
>> 
>> RB
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[clay monroe via Mercedes]

Cops do not follow the rules or laws any better than civilians.

They may be trained well, but tend to go for lethal force first chance they 
have.

I get a ticket for parking too close to a hydrant at my home.  By a few inches 
am I too close to the fire plug 15 feet away.   Cops regularly disregard 
statutes and park in front of or within inches of fire plugs. I have a mission 
to resolve their criminal activity.  When confronted with their criminal 
actions, they blow smoke and try to make it my fault they are breaking the law. 
 The only time law enforcement is supposed to block a fire plug is for exigent 
circumstances.  These idiots are directing traffic or sucking down a donut.

With this example for citizens, why should civilians follow the law?

A well armed citizenry will be able to better serve and protect themselves.  
Cops show up long after something untoward takes place.  Instead of enforcing 
the law, they turn blind eyes to all manner of infractions.  Maybe because they 
are too lazy to do their job, unlike in days past.




clay 

1974 450sl -  Frosch - Two tone green
1986 SDL - Polei
1982 300 SD - Allen

retired models-
2002 s430 - Victor, a Stately & well tailored crap
1976 300D - Blei Vanst - it looks silvery
1972 220D - Gump - She was green, simple and ran
1995 E300D - Gave her life to save me against a Dame in a SUV
POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers







> On May 14, 2018, at 9:39 AM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Your problem, will be the "well trained" issue.
> 
> If the "good guy" shoots someone who is not really a "bad guy" or shoots an 
> innocent in the background etc, it will just make matters worse.
> It has to be difficult to train people adequately. In addition to training, 
> one needs experience. Even the trained and experienced police get it wrong 
> too often.
> 
> RB
> 
> 
> On 14/05/2018 11:33 AM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:
>> So where do I send my "Darwin Award" nomination for the armed robber?
>> Imagine how unpopular armed robbery would become with more well trained
>> armed citizens... Surely, it would help the prison overcrowding problem.
>> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Yes - Randy.  You interpret me correctly.

Besides, the Washington (D.C.) Nationals kicked the AZ Diamonbacks'
proverbial butts recently in a four game sweep at Chase Field.  GO NATS.

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 10:39 PM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> WA used to have open carry, but some whinger near the State Capitol was
> made nervous by a gun rack in a pickup truck, and got them to change it.
> For The Children, or some such.  Things are much safer now, I'm sure real
> statistics will back that up.  After all, that was the intention!
>
> -- Jim
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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

WA used to have open carry, but some whinger near the State Capitol was
made nervous by a gun rack in a pickup truck, and got them to change it.
For The Children, or some such.  Things are much safer now, I'm sure real
statistics will back that up.  After all, that was the intention!

-- Jim
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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 15/05/2018 3:57 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

In AZ b/c of liberal gun laws nearly everyone lives FOREVER and no one dies
violently.  I'm packing my bags.



I would assume, to move further away from AZ?

RB

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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Yes Andrew, the change of climate would do you good. The death by acts of
violence in Arizona are far less than DC, Detroit, or Chicago, just to name
a few areas where it is virtually impossible to defend yourself legally.
Besides that, it is a "rust free zone"... so your Mercedes collection will
live "forever" as well.

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 1:57 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> In AZ b/c of liberal gun laws nearly everyone lives FOREVER and no one dies
> violently.  I'm packing my bags.
>
> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 3:38 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > > On May 15, 2018 at 2:09 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Personally, I like the idea of open carry better, as you can see who is
> > carrying.  Concealed carry concerns me, mainly because you don’t know who
> > is (or isn’t) carrying, and efforts to maintain concealment can cause all
> > sorts of issues, not to mention accidentally revealing your firearm
> leading
> > to a possible misdemeanor charge and loss of your CWP.
> >
> > Some of the first gun control laws were restrictions on concealed carry.
> > Carry (bearing arms) was considered a fundamental civil right, but
> > concealing was considered shady.
> >
> > Mitch.
> >
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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On May 15, 2018 at 5:01 PM Craig via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, 15 May 2018 14:09:36 -0400 Dan Penoff via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> > Indiana has had an open carry law for years ...
> 
> As has New Mexico.
> Craig

Michigan never had restrictions on open carry until the idea of 'gun free 
zones' came along in recent decades. 

I forget when concealed carry became heavily restricted, it had been that way 
my entire life until 2001 when it became Shall Issue in theory at least. But we 
still had the county gun boards, and some counties made it as difficult as 
possible until the gun boards were abolished a couple of years ago. 
Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Tue, 15 May 2018 14:09:36 -0400 Dan Penoff via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Hardly.
> 
> Indiana has had an open carry law for years ...

As has New Mexico.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

In AZ b/c of liberal gun laws nearly everyone lives FOREVER and no one dies
violently.  I'm packing my bags.

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 3:38 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>
> > On May 15, 2018 at 2:09 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > Personally, I like the idea of open carry better, as you can see who is
> carrying.  Concealed carry concerns me, mainly because you don’t know who
> is (or isn’t) carrying, and efforts to maintain concealment can cause all
> sorts of issues, not to mention accidentally revealing your firearm leading
> to a possible misdemeanor charge and loss of your CWP.
>
> Some of the first gun control laws were restrictions on concealed carry.
> Carry (bearing arms) was considered a fundamental civil right, but
> concealing was considered shady.
>
> Mitch.
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On May 15, 2018 at 2:09 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Personally, I like the idea of open carry better, as you can see who is 
> carrying.  Concealed carry concerns me, mainly because you don’t know who is 
> (or isn’t) carrying, and efforts to maintain concealment can cause all sorts 
> of issues, not to mention accidentally revealing your firearm leading to a 
> possible misdemeanor charge and loss of your CWP.

Some of the first gun control laws were restrictions on concealed carry. Carry 
(bearing arms) was considered a fundamental civil right, but concealing was 
considered shady. 

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Hardly.

Indiana has had an open carry law for years, and I routinely encountered people 
who open carried at the store, at work and other places.  It’s no different (to 
me) than someone wearing a tie, belt buckle or some other tool on their belt. 
Not a big deal.

Personally, I like the idea of open carry better, as you can see who is 
carrying.  Concealed carry concerns me, mainly because you don’t know who is 
(or isn’t) carrying, and efforts to maintain concealment can cause all sorts of 
issues, not to mention accidentally revealing your firearm leading to a 
possible misdemeanor charge and loss of your CWP.

-D who has a CWP but does not carry at present


 
> On May 15, 2018, at 1:03 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 15/05/2018 12:00 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:
>> The gun friendly state of Arizona now has Constitutional carry. no permit
>> required, for open carry or concealed carry, and a "Castle Doctrine Law"
>> that is now extended to the "Person" rather than the "Place"... which in
>> legal pertinent terms translates to, "If you are threaten, your right to
>> self defense does not terminate when you leave your house or office, but
>> remains with you the person, regardless of where you are."
>> All the laws which put those items in place are, in large part, due to the
>> efforts of a non-partizan group called the Arizona Citizens Defense League
>> [AZCDL if you want to look them up]
>> which works directly with the legislature to actively promote such Citizen
>> self defense laws as may come into active bills for vote.
>> 
>> Other states have now started to follow this example, to good success.
>> 
>> 
> 
> Is is a return to the days of the wild west.
> 
> RB
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Popular bumper sticker here is "When seconds count, the police are only
minutes away"

The "wild west" wasn't all that wild, compared to the culture in the East
at that time. During much of this countries history, the right of self
defense has prevailed. It's only recently that the culture has dictated
it's no longer necessary to defend yourself. With the rise in crime against
persons and property, the tide of public opinion has shifted back to the
idea of personal responsibility for self defense.

Amazingly, despite the warning buzzers in cars, some people still choose to
always wear their seat belts... some do not..

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 10:20 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>
> > On May 15, 2018 at 1:03 PM Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > Is is a return to the days of the wild west.
>
> A return to the days that only existed in works of fiction?
>
> Mitch.
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On May 15, 2018 at 1:03 PM Randy Bennell via Mercedes  
> wrote:
 
> Is is a return to the days of the wild west.

A return to the days that only existed in works of fiction?

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 15/05/2018 12:00 PM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

The gun friendly state of Arizona now has Constitutional carry. no permit
required, for open carry or concealed carry, and a "Castle Doctrine Law"
that is now extended to the "Person" rather than the "Place"... which in
legal pertinent terms translates to, "If you are threaten, your right to
self defense does not terminate when you leave your house or office, but
remains with you the person, regardless of where you are."
All the laws which put those items in place are, in large part, due to the
efforts of a non-partizan group called the Arizona Citizens Defense League
[AZCDL if you want to look them up]
which works directly with the legislature to actively promote such Citizen
self defense laws as may come into active bills for vote.

Other states have now started to follow this example, to good success.




Is is a return to the days of the wild west.

RB

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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[G Mann via Mercedes]

The gun friendly state of Arizona now has Constitutional carry. no permit
required, for open carry or concealed carry, and a "Castle Doctrine Law"
that is now extended to the "Person" rather than the "Place"... which in
legal pertinent terms translates to, "If you are threaten, your right to
self defense does not terminate when you leave your house or office, but
remains with you the person, regardless of where you are."
All the laws which put those items in place are, in large part, due to the
efforts of a non-partizan group called the Arizona Citizens Defense League
[AZCDL if you want to look them up]
which works directly with the legislature to actively promote such Citizen
self defense laws as may come into active bills for vote.

Other states have now started to follow this example, to good success.


On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 4:22 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> You are correct.  However, in the CWP qualification, they emphasize the
> importance of duty to retreat if you want a solid case of defense.  If it’s
> not an unlawful entry, stand your ground reverts back to a reasonable
> belief that force is necessary to avert death or great bodily harm.  That
> last part can be difficult to quantify under some circumstances.
>
> -D
>
>
>
>
> > On May 14, 2018, at 8:11 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On May 14, 2018 at 7:50 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> That’s simply tragic.
> >>
> >> In Florida you had better be in fear for your life and not have a means
> of flight or exit before you pull the trigger. You don’t meet those
> requirements and you’ll be charged.
> >
> > I thought Florida was a Stand Your Ground state, not a duty to retreat
> state.
> >
> > Mitch.
> >
> > ___
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> >
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> >
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

You are correct.  However, in the CWP qualification, they emphasize the 
importance of duty to retreat if you want a solid case of defense.  If it’s not 
an unlawful entry, stand your ground reverts back to a reasonable belief that 
force is necessary to avert death or great bodily harm.  That last part can be 
difficult to quantify under some circumstances.

-D




> On May 14, 2018, at 8:11 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On May 14, 2018 at 7:50 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> That’s simply tragic.
>> 
>> In Florida you had better be in fear for your life and not have a means of 
>> flight or exit before you pull the trigger. You don’t meet those 
>> requirements and you’ll be charged.
> 
> I thought Florida was a Stand Your Ground state, not a duty to retreat state. 
> 
> Mitch.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Mine does.  In fact, they are closed on Mondays for just that - LEO and private 
tactical training.

Holster work, steels, tactical shooting drills, etc., they do it all.  We have 
a lot of competition shooters practice there as well.  I like to watch, it’s 
cool.

-D

 
> On May 15, 2018, at 1:51 AM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> Your problem, will be the "well trained" issue.
>> 
> There are not many commercial shooting ranges that will allow the type of 
> training that's really needed, at least not with live ammo.
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[fmiser via Mercedes]

> Kaleb wrote:

> Cops are some of the worst with safe handling of weapons and
> accuracy hitting targets. 

Maybe that's because they "have to", while the rest of the
citizens generally don't carry or shoot unless they have at least
some passion for it.


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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

> 
> Your problem, will be the "well trained" issue.
> 
There are not many commercial shooting ranges that will allow the type of 
training that's really needed, at least not with live ammo.


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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

> ...Most cops (especially city cops) don't know one shot one kill.  They empty 
> the
> magazine, then wonder what to do next.  ...
> 
I was trained to keep shooting until the threat was stopped.  There are few 
places where one shot will stop a determined attacker.  Caliber doesn't seem to 
matter much.  Even a fatally injured attacker may kill you before he/she loses 
consciousness.  In fairness to LEOs, they have many other things to deal with 
and few ever need to use a firearm in anger.


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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

You have to wonder how/why the perp's .38 failed.

> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of
> Meade Dillon via Mercedes
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 9:04 AM
> To: Mercedes 
> Cc: Meade Dillon 
> Subject: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day
> 
> https://www.bizpacreview.com/2018/05/13/armed-man-charges-at-mothers-
> with-kids-until-one-mom-whips-out-her-concealed-gun-and-fires-away-
> 634052
> 
> I'm guessing this lady won't be invited to appear on Oprah or The View.
> 
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[G Mann via Mercedes]

One of my regular carry weapons is a FNH 5.7. Magazine holds 20 + one in
the pipe, for a total of 21, with 2 spare mags.. for a total of 61 rounds.
The 5.7 is a small very high velocity round, so it's light to carry 60
rounds. Mag change, with practice, is seamless. If 60 won't do the job,
even on a bad aim day... well...

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 8:59 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I have started counting shots in westerns.  Amazing how many shots can
> come from a colt SA six shooter (in which sensible people carried only 5
> loaded unless they expected immediate trouble) in a movie.
>
> Most cops (especially city cops) don't know one shot one kill.  They empty
> the magazine, then wonder what to do next.  Hunting for food (when hungry)
> with a single shot cures that.
>
> Again, training.  Cops are trained to empty the magazine, then wonder what
> to do.
>
> Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:
>
>> On May 14, 2018 at 12:50 PM Craig via Mercedes
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> "Trained" does not apply to the police of New York City.
>>>
>>
>> Curley touched upon it when he said that fewer and fewer LEOs are
>> shooters and hunters. In places like NYC it's virtually none of them. In
>> places like Eaton County Michigan it's more like 1/4 to 1/3 of them.
>> I recall one incident in NYC in which the suspect and two bystanders
>> caught one bullet each, out of 34 fired (two cops, two empty Glock 17s, no
>> reloads), or an on target score of almost 3%. I don't recall the details,
>> but it seems like it was a situation that didn't call for lethal force in
>> the first place.
>> Mitch.
>>
>>
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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

I have started counting shots in westerns.  Amazing how many shots can 
come from a colt SA six shooter (in which sensible people carried only 5 
loaded unless they expected immediate trouble) in a movie.


Most cops (especially city cops) don't know one shot one kill.  They 
empty the magazine, then wonder what to do next.  Hunting for food (when 
hungry) with a single shot cures that.


Again, training.  Cops are trained to empty the magazine, then wonder 
what to do.


Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

On May 14, 2018 at 12:50 PM Craig via Mercedes  wrote:

"Trained" does not apply to the police of New York City.


Curley touched upon it when he said that fewer and fewer LEOs are shooters and 
hunters. In places like NYC it's virtually none of them. In places like Eaton 
County Michigan it's more like 1/4 to 1/3 of them.
I recall one incident in NYC in which the suspect and two bystanders caught one 
bullet each, out of 34 fired (two cops, two empty Glock 17s, no reloads), or an 
on target score of almost 3%. I don't recall the details, but it seems like it 
was a situation that didn't call for lethal force in the first place.
Mitch.



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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On May 14, 2018 at 7:50 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> That’s simply tragic.
> 
> In Florida you had better be in fear for your life and not have a means of 
> flight or exit before you pull the trigger. You don’t meet those requirements 
> and you’ll be charged.

I thought Florida was a Stand Your Ground state, not a duty to retreat state. 

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

That’s simply tragic.

In Florida you had better be in fear for your life and not have a means of 
flight or exit before you pull the trigger. You don’t meet those requirements 
and you’ll be charged.

-D


> On May 14, 2018, at 5:19 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On May 14, 2018 at 5:02 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Not in Florida.  If Ted Wafer shoots an intruder inside of his house and 
>> claims that he was in fear for his life, and had no means of retreat, there 
>> won’t even be charges filed.  Game over.  Ted +1, bad guy, 0.
> 
> He shot her through the door. I think it was a screen door. Either she was 
> trying to open it or he feared she was trying to open it. 
> Yep, screen door:
> http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/michigan-supreme-court-denies-appeal-in-ted-wafer-porch-shooting-trial
> 
> 19 year old ex cheerleader. Cute (or was when she was a cheerleader, which is 
> of course the pictures they used in the papers), black, drunk out of her 
> mind. Crashed her car, stumbled around in the dark for hours, may have been 
> at risk of dying of exposure by the time she pounded on his door. A few 
> people had called the cops on her in the hours before her death, but she 
> always wandered off before help arrived. Did she need killing? Nope. Did he 
> know that? Nope. Should he have known that? A jury says yes beyond a 
> reasonable doubt. 
> 
> I'm not saying he was in the right, but I am saying I've read about cops 
> whose actions were much farther off base keeping their jobs.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On May 14, 2018 at 5:02 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Not in Florida.  If Ted Wafer shoots an intruder inside of his house and 
> claims that he was in fear for his life, and had no means of retreat, there 
> won’t even be charges filed.  Game over.  Ted +1, bad guy, 0.

He shot her through the door. I think it was a screen door. Either she was 
trying to open it or he feared she was trying to open it. 
Yep, screen door:
http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/michigan-supreme-court-denies-appeal-in-ted-wafer-porch-shooting-trial

19 year old ex cheerleader. Cute (or was when she was a cheerleader, which is 
of course the pictures they used in the papers), black, drunk out of her mind. 
Crashed her car, stumbled around in the dark for hours, may have been at risk 
of dying of exposure by the time she pounded on his door. A few people had 
called the cops on her in the hours before her death, but she always wandered 
off before help arrived. Did she need killing? Nope. Did he know that? Nope. 
Should he have known that? A jury says yes beyond a reasonable doubt. 

I'm not saying he was in the right, but I am saying I've read about cops whose 
actions were much farther off base keeping their jobs.

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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

Cops are some of the worst with safe handling of weapons and accuracy hitting 
targets. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 14, 2018, at 4:08 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On May 14, 2018 at 12:50 PM Craig via Mercedes  wrote:
>> 
>> "Trained" does not apply to the police of New York City.
> 
> Curley touched upon it when he said that fewer and fewer LEOs are shooters 
> and hunters. In places like NYC it's virtually none of them. In places like 
> Eaton County Michigan it's more like 1/4 to 1/3 of them. 
> I recall one incident in NYC in which the suspect and two bystanders caught 
> one bullet each, out of 34 fired (two cops, two empty Glock 17s, no reloads), 
> or an on target score of almost 3%. I don't recall the details, but it seems 
> like it was a situation that didn't call for lethal force in the first place. 
> Mitch.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On May 14, 2018 at 12:50 PM Craig via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> "Trained" does not apply to the police of New York City.

Curley touched upon it when he said that fewer and fewer LEOs are shooters and 
hunters. In places like NYC it's virtually none of them. In places like Eaton 
County Michigan it's more like 1/4 to 1/3 of them. 
I recall one incident in NYC in which the suspect and two bystanders caught one 
bullet each, out of 34 fired (two cops, two empty Glock 17s, no reloads), or an 
on target score of almost 3%. I don't recall the details, but it seems like it 
was a situation that didn't call for lethal force in the first place. 
Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 14/05/2018 3:56 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

On May 14, 2018 at 4:49 PM Randy Bennell via Mercedes  
wrote:


On 14/05/2018 3:45 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

Violent crime doesn't usually take place in a crowd, too many witnesses.

Maybe but we started this whole thread with a story about a fellow who
wanted to rob the crowd and who, I believe, fired one shot to show he
was serious. The military police officer took that to mean he was
dangerous and took the opportunity to fix that problem.

Perhaps I should have said that violent crime (like armed robbery) doesn't 
usually take place in a crowd in my country. Brazil might be vastly different 
from what I'm used to (or it might be a rare incident there too, I have no 
idea).

Mitch.

___


True. Maybe he was a drug addict who could care less about witnesses so 
long as he got some cash for his next fix?
Sad case in any event. Despite her training the officer likely did not 
want to shoot him and will bear scars for doing so.


RB


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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Not in Florida.  If Ted Wafer shoots an intruder inside of his house and claims 
that he was in fear for his life, and had no means of retreat, there won’t even 
be charges filed.  Game over.  Ted +1, bad guy, 0.

-D


> On May 14, 2018, at 4:40 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> You do have a point though. A cop can shoot somebody in a totally inexcusable 
> fashion, get two years of paid vacation while the civil suit works its way 
> through the courts, then the day before the trial the suit is settled for a 
> few million taxpayer dollars and the cops goes back to work. Meanwhile, the 
> guy who made the wrong decision when somebody desperate to get indoors woke 
> him up in his own house at 3am becomes Ted Wafer, Convicted 2nd Degree 
> Murderer.
> 
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> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On May 14, 2018 at 4:49 PM Randy Bennell via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> On 14/05/2018 3:45 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:
> > Violent crime doesn't usually take place in a crowd, too many witnesses.

> Maybe but we started this whole thread with a story about a fellow who 
> wanted to rob the crowd and who, I believe, fired one shot to show he 
> was serious. The military police officer took that to mean he was 
> dangerous and took the opportunity to fix that problem.

Perhaps I should have said that violent crime (like armed robbery) doesn't 
usually take place in a crowd in my country. Brazil might be vastly different 
from what I'm used to (or it might be a rare incident there too, I have no 
idea).

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 14/05/2018 3:45 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

On May 14, 2018 at 4:34 PM Randy Bennell via Mercedes  
wrote:

She survived when she had to and protected her children, but I don't
think I would want her to intervene on a crowded street and I doubt she
would in any event.

Violent crime doesn't usually take place in a crowd, too many witnesses. When 
it does, the crime is often the attempted killing of the entire crowd.

Mitch.

___


Maybe but we started this whole thread with a story about a fellow who 
wanted to rob the crowd and who, I believe, fired one shot to show he 
was serious. The military police officer took that to mean he was 
dangerous and took the opportunity to fix that problem.


RB

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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On May 14, 2018 at 4:34 PM Randy Bennell via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> She survived when she had to and protected her children, but I don't 
> think I would want her to intervene on a crowded street and I doubt she 
> would in any event.

Violent crime doesn't usually take place in a crowd, too many witnesses. When 
it does, the crime is often the attempted killing of the entire crowd.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On May 14, 2018 at 12:52 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Righto.  My guess is the the % of popos wrong is higher than the % of 
> armed citizens making a mistake.   Popos have the advantage of being 
> protected by being clear if they "feel their life is in danger."  Thus 
> anyone they want can be shot. Not so with citizens.

I think it's the fact that they inject themselves into situations already in 
progress, make a 'split second decision' and back the decision up with lethal 
force. The non-LE defenders are usually defending themselves from a situation 
that the criminal brought to them, and they know darn well who the criminal is. 

You do have a point though. A cop can shoot somebody in a totally inexcusable 
fashion, get two years of paid vacation while the civil suit works its way 
through the courts, then the day before the trial the suit is settled for a few 
million taxpayer dollars and the cops goes back to work. Meanwhile, the guy who 
made the wrong decision when somebody desperate to get indoors woke him up in 
his own house at 3am becomes Ted Wafer, Convicted 2nd Degree Murderer.

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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 14/05/2018 3:15 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

On May 14, 2018 at 2:43 PM Randy Bennell via Mercedes  
wrote:

But mostly, do not try to hold up an off duty police officer carrying
their gun.
She got the opportunity and she used it. Fortunately for her, he did not
realize she was a police officer or it might have turned out differently.

That's the thing about citizen disarmament zones, people assume the victims are 
helpless and they can just go through a crowd and rob every one of them.
And most of the time, it's an accurate assumption, just not this time.

As for training and experience, I recall a mother who had never fired a gun in 
her life doing a better job than most cops and even many devoted shooting 
hobbyists. A man broke into her home, while he was breaking in, she grabbed a 
revolver, hustled her kids into the attic, and hoped he just wanted to burgle 
the place. As he climbed into the attic, she warned him off repeatedly, but he 
kept coming.
So instead of retreating into a safe space, she'd cornered herself and her 
family into a confined space with their attacker. And all she had was a 
revolver that she hasn't handled since the day she brought it home and loaded 
it. So she pointed it at him and shot until it was empty. Five out of six hit 
him. Either he was very close or she was very lucky. It was the sixth shot that 
finally stopped his advance. She did what needed doing, but what if there'd 
been two of him, and neither one of them were interested in giving up?

Mitch.

___


She survived when she had to and protected her children, but I don't 
think I would want her to intervene on a crowded street and I doubt she 
would in any event.


RB who promised himself he would not get into gun issues with you folks 
south of the border.


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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On May 14, 2018 at 2:43 PM Randy Bennell via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> But mostly, do not try to hold up an off duty police officer carrying 
> their gun.
> She got the opportunity and she used it. Fortunately for her, he did not 
> realize she was a police officer or it might have turned out differently.

That's the thing about citizen disarmament zones, people assume the victims are 
helpless and they can just go through a crowd and rob every one of them. 
And most of the time, it's an accurate assumption, just not this time. 

As for training and experience, I recall a mother who had never fired a gun in 
her life doing a better job than most cops and even many devoted shooting 
hobbyists. A man broke into her home, while he was breaking in, she grabbed a 
revolver, hustled her kids into the attic, and hoped he just wanted to burgle 
the place. As he climbed into the attic, she warned him off repeatedly, but he 
kept coming. 
So instead of retreating into a safe space, she'd cornered herself and her 
family into a confined space with their attacker. And all she had was a 
revolver that she hasn't handled since the day she brought it home and loaded 
it. So she pointed it at him and shot until it was empty. Five out of six hit 
him. Either he was very close or she was very lucky. It was the sixth shot that 
finally stopped his advance. She did what needed doing, but what if there'd 
been two of him, and neither one of them were interested in giving up?

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 14/05/2018 1:51 PM, OK Don via Mercedes wrote:

Umm - she is a 20 year veteran police officer . . .



And Military Police, so that may well mean that she has received much 
more training than many non-military police officers have.


RB

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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[OK Don via Mercedes]

Umm - she is a 20 year veteran police officer . . .

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 11:33 AM, G Mann via Mercedes  wrote:

> So where do I send my "Darwin Award" nomination for the armed robber?
> Imagine how unpopular armed robbery would become with more well trained
> armed citizens... Surely, it would help the prison overcrowding problem.
>
>
>
-- 
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 14/05/2018 1:02 PM, Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes wrote:

Or just dont live in Brazil.

But mostly, do not try to hold up an off duty police officer carrying 
their gun.
She got the opportunity and she used it. Fortunately for her, he did not 
realize she was a police officer or it might have turned out differently.


RB

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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

Or just dont live in Brazil.

On Mon, May 14, 2018, 9:56 AM Dan--- via Mercedes 
wrote:

> In Florida, if you have a CWP as I do, exposing or showing your firearm
> while carrying is a misdemeanor and the basis for revocation of your CWP.
>
> You never, ever “show”unless you plan on using it.  One more part of the
> process to make it a very conscious effort to decide when to use that
> concealed weapon.
>
> -D
>
> > On May 14, 2018, at 12:51 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > But how much more often are the police placed in the position where they
> must make that choice? Amateurs don't appear to be involved all that often.
> > I have heard it said that one never shows one's gun unless one intends
> to use it forthwith. Maybe the good guys just don't want to get involved in
> many cases.
> > If it all turns out bad, then the good guy just became the bad guy. That
> sort of thing can be very expensive and very disruptive to one's life.
> >
> > RB
> >
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> >
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Dan--- via Mercedes]

In Florida, if you have a CWP as I do, exposing or showing your firearm while 
carrying is a misdemeanor and the basis for revocation of your CWP.

You never, ever “show”unless you plan on using it.  One more part of the 
process to make it a very conscious effort to decide when to use that concealed 
weapon.

-D 

> On May 14, 2018, at 12:51 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> But how much more often are the police placed in the position where they must 
> make that choice? Amateurs don't appear to be involved all that often.
> I have heard it said that one never shows one's gun unless one intends to use 
> it forthwith. Maybe the good guys just don't want to get involved in many 
> cases.
> If it all turns out bad, then the good guy just became the bad guy. That sort 
> of thing can be very expensive and very disruptive to one's life.
> 
> RB
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Righto.  My guess is the the % of popos wrong is higher than the % of 
armed citizens making a mistake.   Popos have the advantage of being 
protected by being clear if they "feel their life is in danger."  Thus 
anyone they want can be shot. Not so with citizens.


Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:


If the 'wrong guy' percentage for amateurs wasn't about 10% of the 'wrong guy' 
percentage for 'trained law enforcement', you might have a point there.

Mitch.



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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 14/05/2018 11:46 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

On May 14, 2018 at 12:39 PM Randy Bennell via Mercedes  
wrote:


Your problem, will be the "well trained" issue.

If the "good guy" shoots someone who is not really a "bad guy" or shoots
an innocent in the background etc, it will just make matters worse.
It has to be difficult to train people adequately.

If the 'wrong guy' percentage for amateurs wasn't about 10% of the 'wrong guy' 
percentage for 'trained law enforcement', you might have a point there.

Mitch.

___


But how much more often are the police placed in the position where they 
must make that choice? Amateurs don't appear to be involved all that often.
I have heard it said that one never shows one's gun unless one intends 
to use it forthwith. Maybe the good guys just don't want to get involved 
in many cases.
If it all turns out bad, then the good guy just became the bad guy. That 
sort of thing can be very expensive and very disruptive to one's life.


RB

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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Mon, 14 May 2018 11:39:52 -0500 Randy Bennell via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Even the trained and experienced police get it wrong too often.

"Trained" does not apply to the police of New York City.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

How many of the popos ever hunted, or still hunt?Very few, and the 
percentage just keeps getting lower.  Good training comes from 
experience, and few popos are either well trained or experienced.


it only takes a small percentage if the population carrying to make 
crimes more costly than working.  I'd guess 10%.   What percentage in 
texas actually carry?  Probably well under 10%, but it sure makes a 
difference.




Randy Bennell via Mercedes wrote:

Your problem, will be the "well trained" issue.

If the "good guy" shoots someone who is not really a "bad guy" or 
shoots an innocent in the background etc, it will just make matters 
worse.
It has to be difficult to train people adequately. In addition to 
training, one needs experience. Even the trained and experienced 
police get it wrong too often.


RB



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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On May 14, 2018 at 12:39 PM Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Your problem, will be the "well trained" issue.
> 
> If the "good guy" shoots someone who is not really a "bad guy" or shoots 
> an innocent in the background etc, it will just make matters worse.
> It has to be difficult to train people adequately.

If the 'wrong guy' percentage for amateurs wasn't about 10% of the 'wrong guy' 
percentage for 'trained law enforcement', you might have a point there. 

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

Your problem, will be the "well trained" issue.

If the "good guy" shoots someone who is not really a "bad guy" or shoots 
an innocent in the background etc, it will just make matters worse.
It has to be difficult to train people adequately. In addition to 
training, one needs experience. Even the trained and experienced police 
get it wrong too often.


RB


On 14/05/2018 11:33 AM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

So where do I send my "Darwin Award" nomination for the armed robber?
Imagine how unpopular armed robbery would become with more well trained
armed citizens... Surely, it would help the prison overcrowding problem.




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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[G Mann via Mercedes]

So where do I send my "Darwin Award" nomination for the armed robber?
Imagine how unpopular armed robbery would become with more well trained
armed citizens... Surely, it would help the prison overcrowding problem.

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 6:57 AM, Frederick Moir via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Idiot forgot golden rule.
> Don't mess with mama!
> Fred
>
> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:16 AM, M. Mitchell Marmel via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > (thumbs up)
> >
> > On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 8:03 AM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > > https://www.bizpacreview.com/2018/05/13/armed-man-charges-
> > > at-mothers-with-kids-until-one-mom-whips-out-her-
> > > concealed-gun-and-fires-away-634052
> > >
> > > I'm guessing this lady won't be invited to appear on Oprah or The View.
> > >
> > > -
> > > Max
> > > Charleston SC
> > > ___
> > > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > >
> > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> > >
> > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> > >
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> >
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> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Fred Moir
> Lynn MA
> Diesel preferred
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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[Frederick Moir via Mercedes]

Idiot forgot golden rule.
Don't mess with mama!
Fred

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:16 AM, M. Mitchell Marmel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> (thumbs up)
>
> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 8:03 AM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > https://www.bizpacreview.com/2018/05/13/armed-man-charges-
> > at-mothers-with-kids-until-one-mom-whips-out-her-
> > concealed-gun-and-fires-away-634052
> >
> > I'm guessing this lady won't be invited to appear on Oprah or The View.
> >
> > -
> > Max
> > Charleston SC
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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-- 
Fred Moir
Lynn MA
Diesel preferred
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Re: [MBZ] OT A Hero of Mother's Day

[M. Mitchell Marmel via Mercedes]

(thumbs up)

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 8:03 AM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> https://www.bizpacreview.com/2018/05/13/armed-man-charges-
> at-mothers-with-kids-until-one-mom-whips-out-her-
> concealed-gun-and-fires-away-634052
>
> I'm guessing this lady won't be invited to appear on Oprah or The View.
>
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
> ___
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>
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