Re: [MBZ] car hacking

2015-08-26 Thread Randy Bennell via Mercedes

On 26/08/2015 11:13 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

I would love to find someone clever enough to hack my 83 300TD - or the
'85, for that matter.




They could just put your plate numbers  into the police database to say 
there were outstanding warrants.


RB

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Re: [MBZ] car hacking

2015-08-26 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes
My advise is to monkey with the vacuum pump system and than you would 
loose you're break petal write than and their


--R



On 8/26/15 12:13 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

I would love to find someone clever enough to hack my 83 300TD - or the
'85, for that matter.



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Re: [MBZ] car hacking

2015-08-26 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
DIabolical!  Now if you could only harness that brilliance for GOOD rather
than EVIL.

On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 On 26/08/2015 11:13 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

 I would love to find someone clever enough to hack my 83 300TD - or the
 '85, for that matter.



 They could just put your plate numbers  into the police database to say
 there were outstanding warrants.

 RB

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Re: [MBZ] car hacking

2015-08-26 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
I would love to find someone clever enough to hack my 83 300TD - or the
'85, for that matter.

On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 11:45 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 That's because the FBI and Harris requires that they sign a non-disclosure
 agreement.

 We had a big dust-up down here recently where the ACLU filed an FOIA
 request over one of these with the local prosecutor and Federal marshals
 showed up at the prosecutor's office and took the case over, effectively
 thwarting the FOIA.

 Dan

 Sent from my iPad

  On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:29 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
  Yes, and apparently the various locals are hiding the fact that they
 have them though the info is subject to FOIA, they ignore any requests on
 details.
 
  --R
 
 
 
  On 8/26/15 11:16 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:
  You mean that law enforcement will be using hardware to track our
 whereabouts?
 
 
 https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150823/23323932038/police-regularly-use-stingrays-without-warrant-to-find-petty-criminals-then-try-to-hide-that-fact.shtml
 
  Dan why am I not surprised Man
 
  Sent from my iPad
 
  On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:58 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
  Once done, some Chinese outfit will be selling the equipment for
 cheepcheep, then it becomes another running battle.  Just like all the
 other cracks, hacks, cloners, and whatever else to circumvent or get into
 various systems -- the electronic keys are big now, garage door openers,
 whatever.
 
  I recall some years ago getting a cell phone bill (my work phone) for
 nearly $2k, calls all over the world, most to Mexico, from all over the
 US.  I call the cell phone co, whoever it was, and ask WTF.  They look into
 it, determine my (analog at the time) phone had been cloned and someone
 made clones and were probably selling time to make calls.  Found out a few
 others at the company had the same thing done, turns out someone was
 probably sitting at a traffic light not far from the office, sniffing
 phones while people sat in the traffic making calls or pinging the towers
 or whatever. Equipment was fairly cheap even then (though probably not from
 China at that time).  Now the cops have these devices that can spoof
 phones, acting like a cell node, and collect all kinds of stuff from them.
 I guess if you have a coupla $k you could buy one too.
 
  --R
 
  On 8/26/15 8:11 AM, Jaime Kopchinski via Mercedes wrote:
  It takes a huge amount of time and knowledge to pull something like
 this
  off.
 
  Jaime
 
 
  On Wednesday, August 26, 2015, Max Dillon via Mercedes 
  mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
  Or an ex-spouse bent on revenge, or the neighborhood punk getting
 some
  laughs.  People can and will be cruel.
  --
  Max Dillon
  Charleston SC

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Re: [MBZ] car hacking

2015-08-26 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
That's because the FBI and Harris requires that they sign a non-disclosure 
agreement.

We had a big dust-up down here recently where the ACLU filed an FOIA request 
over one of these with the local prosecutor and Federal marshals showed up at 
the prosecutor's office and took the case over, effectively thwarting the FOIA.

Dan

Sent from my iPad

 On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:29 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 Yes, and apparently the various locals are hiding the fact that they have 
 them though the info is subject to FOIA, they ignore any requests on details.
 
 --R
 
 
 
 On 8/26/15 11:16 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:
 You mean that law enforcement will be using hardware to track our 
 whereabouts?
 
 https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150823/23323932038/police-regularly-use-stingrays-without-warrant-to-find-petty-criminals-then-try-to-hide-that-fact.shtml
 
 Dan why am I not surprised Man
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:58 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 Once done, some Chinese outfit will be selling the equipment for 
 cheepcheep, then it becomes another running battle.  Just like all the 
 other cracks, hacks, cloners, and whatever else to circumvent or get into 
 various systems -- the electronic keys are big now, garage door openers, 
 whatever.
 
 I recall some years ago getting a cell phone bill (my work phone) for 
 nearly $2k, calls all over the world, most to Mexico, from all over the US. 
  I call the cell phone co, whoever it was, and ask WTF.  They look into it, 
 determine my (analog at the time) phone had been cloned and someone made 
 clones and were probably selling time to make calls.  Found out a few 
 others at the company had the same thing done, turns out someone was 
 probably sitting at a traffic light not far from the office, sniffing 
 phones while people sat in the traffic making calls or pinging the towers 
 or whatever. Equipment was fairly cheap even then (though probably not from 
 China at that time).  Now the cops have these devices that can spoof 
 phones, acting like a cell node, and collect all kinds of stuff from them.  
 I guess if you have a coupla $k you could buy one too.
 
 --R
 
 On 8/26/15 8:11 AM, Jaime Kopchinski via Mercedes wrote:
 It takes a huge amount of time and knowledge to pull something like this
 off.
 
 Jaime
 
 
 On Wednesday, August 26, 2015, Max Dillon via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 Or an ex-spouse bent on revenge, or the neighborhood punk getting some
 laughs.  People can and will be cruel.
 --
 Max Dillon
 Charleston SC

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Re: [MBZ] car hacking

2015-08-26 Thread Max Dillon via Mercedes
Or an ex-spouse bent on revenge, or the neighborhood punk getting some laughs.  
People can and will be cruel.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On August 25, 2015 10:58:08 PM EDT, Craig via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
wrote:
On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 06:52:56 -0400 Tim Crone via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 And here is where I eat the crow, I clearly underestimated how poorly
 the interconnected software could be implemented by the
manufacturers.



 I still don't see how car hacking can make money on any kind of
scale,
 but if it's easy then people will just do it for fun. :(

It could be used by Mafia hit men ...


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] car hacking

2015-08-26 Thread Jaime Kopchinski via Mercedes
It takes a huge amount of time and knowledge to pull something like this
off.

Jaime


On Wednesday, August 26, 2015, Max Dillon via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 Or an ex-spouse bent on revenge, or the neighborhood punk getting some
 laughs.  People can and will be cruel.
 --
 Max Dillon
 Charleston SC
 '87 300TD
 '95 E300

 On August 25, 2015 10:58:08 PM EDT, Craig via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com javascript:; wrote:
 On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 06:52:56 -0400 Tim Crone via Mercedes
 mercedes@okiebenz.com javascript:; wrote:
 
  And here is where I eat the crow, I clearly underestimated how poorly
  the interconnected software could be implemented by the
 manufacturers.
 
 
 
  I still don't see how car hacking can make money on any kind of
 scale,
  but if it's easy then people will just do it for fun. :(
 
 It could be used by Mafia hit men ...
 
 
 Craig
 
 ___
 http://www.okiebenz.com
 
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-- 
Jaime Kopchinski
http://www.jaimekop.com/
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Re: [MBZ] car hacking

2015-08-26 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes
Once done, some Chinese outfit will be selling the equipment for 
cheepcheep, then it becomes another running battle.  Just like all the 
other cracks, hacks, cloners, and whatever else to circumvent or get 
into various systems -- the electronic keys are big now, garage door 
openers, whatever.


I recall some years ago getting a cell phone bill (my work phone) for 
nearly $2k, calls all over the world, most to Mexico, from all over the 
US.  I call the cell phone co, whoever it was, and ask WTF.  They look 
into it, determine my (analog at the time) phone had been cloned and 
someone made clones and were probably selling time to make calls.  Found 
out a few others at the company had the same thing done, turns out 
someone was probably sitting at a traffic light not far from the office, 
sniffing phones while people sat in the traffic making calls or pinging 
the towers or whatever. Equipment was fairly cheap even then (though 
probably not from China at that time).  Now the cops have these devices 
that can spoof phones, acting like a cell node, and collect all kinds of 
stuff from them.  I guess if you have a coupla $k you could buy one too.


--R

On 8/26/15 8:11 AM, Jaime Kopchinski via Mercedes wrote:

It takes a huge amount of time and knowledge to pull something like this
off.

Jaime


On Wednesday, August 26, 2015, Max Dillon via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:


Or an ex-spouse bent on revenge, or the neighborhood punk getting some
laughs.  People can and will be cruel.
--
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On August 25, 2015 10:58:08 PM EDT, Craig via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com javascript:; wrote:

On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 06:52:56 -0400 Tim Crone via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com javascript:; wrote:


And here is where I eat the crow, I clearly underestimated how poorly
the interconnected software could be implemented by the

manufacturers.




I still don't see how car hacking can make money on any kind of

scale,

but if it's easy then people will just do it for fun. :(

It could be used by Mafia hit men ...


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] car hacking

2015-08-26 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
You mean that law enforcement will be using hardware to track our whereabouts?

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150823/23323932038/police-regularly-use-stingrays-without-warrant-to-find-petty-criminals-then-try-to-hide-that-fact.shtml

Dan why am I not surprised Man

Sent from my iPad

 On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:58 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 Once done, some Chinese outfit will be selling the equipment for cheepcheep, 
 then it becomes another running battle.  Just like all the other cracks, 
 hacks, cloners, and whatever else to circumvent or get into various systems 
 -- the electronic keys are big now, garage door openers, whatever.
 
 I recall some years ago getting a cell phone bill (my work phone) for nearly 
 $2k, calls all over the world, most to Mexico, from all over the US.  I call 
 the cell phone co, whoever it was, and ask WTF.  They look into it, determine 
 my (analog at the time) phone had been cloned and someone made clones and 
 were probably selling time to make calls.  Found out a few others at the 
 company had the same thing done, turns out someone was probably sitting at a 
 traffic light not far from the office, sniffing phones while people sat in 
 the traffic making calls or pinging the towers or whatever. Equipment was 
 fairly cheap even then (though probably not from China at that time).  Now 
 the cops have these devices that can spoof phones, acting like a cell node, 
 and collect all kinds of stuff from them.  I guess if you have a coupla $k 
 you could buy one too.
 
 --R
 
 On 8/26/15 8:11 AM, Jaime Kopchinski via Mercedes wrote:
 It takes a huge amount of time and knowledge to pull something like this
 off.
 
 Jaime
 
 
 On Wednesday, August 26, 2015, Max Dillon via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 Or an ex-spouse bent on revenge, or the neighborhood punk getting some
 laughs.  People can and will be cruel.
 --
 Max Dillon
 Charleston SC
 '87 300TD
 '95 E300
 
 On August 25, 2015 10:58:08 PM EDT, Craig via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com javascript:; wrote:
 On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 06:52:56 -0400 Tim Crone via Mercedes
 mercedes@okiebenz.com javascript:; wrote:
 
 And here is where I eat the crow, I clearly underestimated how poorly
 the interconnected software could be implemented by the
 manufacturers.
 
 
 
 I still don't see how car hacking can make money on any kind of
 scale,
 but if it's easy then people will just do it for fun. :(
 It could be used by Mafia hit men ...
 
 
 Craig
 
 ___
 http://www.okiebenz.com
 
 To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
 
 To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] car hacking

2015-08-26 Thread G Mann via Mercedes
Somewhere today, there is a career car thief exploiting this principle to
gain instant entry to a new car worth thousands of dollars.

If you doubt it, look for the statistics on number of cars stolen and
dismantled each year. It is a huge industry.

On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 4:24 AM, Max Dillon via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 Or an ex-spouse bent on revenge, or the neighborhood punk getting some
 laughs.  People can and will be cruel.
 --
 Max Dillon
 Charleston SC
 '87 300TD
 '95 E300

 On August 25, 2015 10:58:08 PM EDT, Craig via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 06:52:56 -0400 Tim Crone via Mercedes
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
  And here is where I eat the crow, I clearly underestimated how poorly
  the interconnected software could be implemented by the
 manufacturers.
 
 
 
  I still don't see how car hacking can make money on any kind of
 scale,
  but if it's easy then people will just do it for fun. :(
 
 It could be used by Mafia hit men ...
 
 
 Craig
 
 ___
 http://www.okiebenz.com
 
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Re: [MBZ] car hacking

2015-08-26 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes
Yes, and apparently the various locals are hiding the fact that they 
have them though the info is subject to FOIA, they ignore any requests 
on details.


--R



On 8/26/15 11:16 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

You mean that law enforcement will be using hardware to track our whereabouts?

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150823/23323932038/police-regularly-use-stingrays-without-warrant-to-find-petty-criminals-then-try-to-hide-that-fact.shtml

Dan why am I not surprised Man

Sent from my iPad


On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:58 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
wrote:

Once done, some Chinese outfit will be selling the equipment for cheepcheep, 
then it becomes another running battle.  Just like all the other cracks, hacks, 
cloners, and whatever else to circumvent or get into various systems -- the 
electronic keys are big now, garage door openers, whatever.

I recall some years ago getting a cell phone bill (my work phone) for nearly 
$2k, calls all over the world, most to Mexico, from all over the US.  I call 
the cell phone co, whoever it was, and ask WTF.  They look into it, determine 
my (analog at the time) phone had been cloned and someone made clones and were 
probably selling time to make calls.  Found out a few others at the company had 
the same thing done, turns out someone was probably sitting at a traffic light 
not far from the office, sniffing phones while people sat in the traffic making 
calls or pinging the towers or whatever. Equipment was fairly cheap even then 
(though probably not from China at that time).  Now the cops have these devices 
that can spoof phones, acting like a cell node, and collect all kinds of stuff 
from them.  I guess if you have a coupla $k you could buy one too.

--R


On 8/26/15 8:11 AM, Jaime Kopchinski via Mercedes wrote:
It takes a huge amount of time and knowledge to pull something like this
off.

Jaime


On Wednesday, August 26, 2015, Max Dillon via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:


Or an ex-spouse bent on revenge, or the neighborhood punk getting some
laughs.  People can and will be cruel.
--
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On August 25, 2015 10:58:08 PM EDT, Craig via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com javascript:; wrote:

On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 06:52:56 -0400 Tim Crone via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com javascript:; wrote:


And here is where I eat the crow, I clearly underestimated how poorly
the interconnected software could be implemented by the

manufacturers.




I still don't see how car hacking can make money on any kind of

scale,

but if it's easy then people will just do it for fun. :(

It could be used by Mafia hit men ...


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] car hacking

2015-08-25 Thread Curly McLain via Mercedes
There is something like a mechanical switch, you know.  We lived 
with them for an eternity before we had to digitize everything.


Peter


For you and me, yes,

but the crop of young sheeple have been trained to not know how to 
flip a switch.  TO them everything is supposed to be done for you.


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Re: [MBZ] car hacking

2015-08-25 Thread Curly McLain via Mercedes




Its absurd that the entertainment center is part of the CAN bus, 
that's a clear security violation from the start. As long as that's 
the case the system will never be secure.


Curt



That was my initial thought too, but it is also used for GPS, etc, so 
has to have the connectivity to allow the GPS, Onstar etc to work.


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Re: [MBZ] car hacking

2015-08-25 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
Its absurd that the entertainment center is part of the CAN bus, that's a clear 
security violation from the start. As long as that's the case the system will 
never be secure.

Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

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Re: [MBZ] car hacking

2015-08-25 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
I'm just saying that if the entertainment center is a full member of the CAN 
bus it will always be an entry point for hackers. As long as theres an entry 
point there will always be hacks. Any network open to the internet will be 
hacked at some point, this has already been pretty well proven.
The entertainment center knows when the car is on because it has power. It can 
know where it is because of its own GPS or the GPS in your phone and it can 
have its own buttons and spot in the cluster on a bus other than the one 
responsible for the rest of the car. This is an issue of basic safety.
If you look at fire alarm systems NO PART of a commercial fire alarm may touch 
ANY other system in the building (or at least that was true when I stopped 
being a Fire Alarm Videographer in 2001. It was a basic safety precaution...
-Curt


  From: Jaime Kopchinski via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
Cc: Jaime Kopchinski jaime...@gmail.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 10:21 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] car hacking
   
Curt, how do you expect the entertainment system to known when the car is
on, where it is, display messages in the instrument cluster, and respond to
button presses if it's not connected to a CAN bus?

Let's not loose focus on where the issues were here... No need to attack
basic and proven technologies.

Jaime

On Tuesday, August 25, 2015, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 Its absurd that the entertainment center is part of the CAN bus, that's a
 clear security violation from the start. As long as that's the case the
 system will never be secure.

 Curt

 Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

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-- 
Jaime Kopchinski
http://www.jaimekop.com/


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Re: [MBZ] car hacking

2015-08-25 Thread Craig via Mercedes
On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 06:52:56 -0400 Tim Crone via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 And here is where I eat the crow, I clearly underestimated how poorly
 the interconnected software could be implemented by the manufacturers.



 I still don't see how car hacking can make money on any kind of scale,
 but if it's easy then people will just do it for fun. :(

It could be used by Mafia hit men ...


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] car hacking

2015-08-25 Thread Tim Crone via Mercedes
On Aug 23, 2015 11:51 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

 This is quite fascinating
http://hackaday.com/2015/08/22/how-those-hacker-took-complete-control-of-that-jeep

In a similar vein, a rollup of the automotive hacking at the last security
convention:
.
http://arstechnica.com/security/2015/08/highway-to-hack-why-were-just-at-the-beginning-of-the-auto-hacking-era/

And here is where I eat the crow, I clearly underestimated how poorly the
interconnected software could be implemented by the manufacturers.  I still
don't see how car hacking can make money on any kind of scale, but if it's
easy then people will just do it for fun. :(

Best,
Tim
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Re: [MBZ] car hacking

2015-08-25 Thread Curly McLain via Mercedes

On Aug 23, 2015 11:51 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:


 This is quite fascinating

http://hackaday.com/2015/08/22/how-those-hacker-took-complete-control-of-that-jeep

In a similar vein, a rollup of the automotive hacking at the last security
convention:
.
http://arstechnica.com/security/2015/08/highway-to-hack-why-were-just-at-the-beginning-of-the-auto-hacking-era/

And here is where I eat the crow, I clearly underestimated how poorly the
interconnected software could be implemented by the manufacturers.  I still
don't see how car hacking can make money on any kind of scale, but if it's
easy then people will just do it for fun. :(

Best,
Tim


MORE reasons to love our 240Ds, 300D, 300SDs and 300SDLs   I dare you 
to try to take electronic control of my 240D!


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