Re: [MBZ] running temps in the cold? (was: Re: glowing in the cold)
Maybe your temperature gauge is not accurate? My car reaches normal operating temperature after just a couple miles of highway, of course its an OM603. My normally aspirated OM617 would require about the same, maybe a little longer. Does your ALDA need adjustment - maybe fuel is too lean for the air the turbo is pushing, and more cold air means lower combustion and engine temperatures? I don't think you should need any radiator shroud/cover if your system is working right - thermostat should be staying closed so no flow via the radiator that you can affect in order to raise engine temperatures. -Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of ernest breakfield Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 2:26 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: [MBZ] running temps in the cold? (was: Re: glowing in the cold) only slightly related; what kind of operating temps are you guys that live in real cold seeing? here where temps rarely get much below the 20s-40s this time of year, i still don't often see the coolant temp indicate anything above 80C until it's been on the highway at speed/load for many miles. (i've already played with changing out the thermostat to units i've verified are opening at the proper temps.) i'm sure this is exacerbated by the fact that we're running almost pure BioDiesel almost all of the time as we can see the temps come up quicker and higher when we have to run #2 instead of B99 on road trips, but i can run around town all day and never see the coolant reach the normal area on the gauge even when temps are into the 50s and higher. FWIW, the car starts fine on a single glow cycle, but (no surprise!) definitely runs stronger when warm. i know some veteran diesel-heads used to be seen with radiators shrouded or grills even completely blocked in the cold to keep temps up where they're supposed to be; what are the thoughts regarding doing this with a 617 turbo-diesel? cheers! e '85 300D (~187K) Berkeley, CA Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310 wrote: OK, thanks for the input guys. I can't justify the $$$ for the Webasto unit, so I guess I'll just have to put up with the cold for another month or so. -Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dwight E. Giles, Jr Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 12:21 PM To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' Subject: Re: [MBZ] glowing in the cold I only ever tried the block heater once on the 300D 2.5t for that reason-couldn't see any difference in heat any sooner so I tucked the cord back onto bumper and have never used again. Dwight E. Giles, Jr. 1978 240D 4 speed. 218K + miles. 1990 300D 2.5t 170K miles. Wickford, RI -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Curt Raymond Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 12:05 PM To: Diesel List Subject: Re: [MBZ] glowing in the cold Max, I can't really tell the difference in how quickly I get heat, its the center of town for me pretty much no matter what. If I lived somewhere seriously cold I'd get a radiator heater to go along with the block heater, another 1000w into the radiator would surely give quicker cabin heat... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] running temps in the cold? (was: Re: glowing in the cold)
You've verified the gauge? 240D temps tend to fluctuate a bit since theres no overflow bottle (I guess anyway) but mine generally sits just over the 80C mark at temps above say -20F even on the highway. I seem to remember that Marshall had a magic number at which it was too cold for an MB diesel to overcome the cold air over the engine but I can't remember what it was and its way colder than I've ever seen. As long as I've got adequate cabin heat (which I do as long as the temp is around 80C) I don't see any reason to put any cardboard anywhere... -Curt Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 11:25:59 -0800 From: ernest breakfield erne...@backyardengineering.org To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: [MBZ] running temps in the cold? (was: Re: glowing in the cold) Message-ID: 4b439247.8050...@backyardengineering.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed only slightly related; what kind of operating temps are you guys that live in real cold seeing? here where temps rarely get much below the 20s-40s this time of year, i still don't often see the coolant temp indicate anything above 80C until it's been on the highway at speed/load for many miles. (i've already played with changing out the thermostat to units i've verified are opening at the proper temps.) i'm sure this is exacerbated by the fact that we're running almost pure BioDiesel almost all of the time as we can see the temps come up quicker and higher when we have to run #2 instead of B99 on road trips, but i can run around town all day and never see the coolant reach the normal area on the gauge even when temps are into the 50s and higher. FWIW, the car starts fine on a single glow cycle, but (no surprise!) definitely runs stronger when warm. i know some veteran diesel-heads used to be seen with radiators shrouded or grills even completely blocked in the cold to keep temps up where they're supposed to be; what are the thoughts regarding doing this with a 617 turbo-diesel? cheers! e '85 300D (~187K) Berkeley, CA ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] running temps in the cold? (was: Re: glowing in the cold)
You should be normal running temps (about 80C) shortly after starting off. You may in fact never get to operating temp if you aren't running 45 mph plus, though -- diesels don't make much heat with no load, unlike gassers where idle combustion is lousy and very wasteful. It takes a couple miles for my 300D to get up to 80C -- I've got a new thermostat but haven't gotten it installed yet, and won't be installing it until it warms up unless the old one fails completely -- takes too long to warm up. A new, good, thermostat should give you proper temps, but on an old, well worn diesel it may warm up very slowly with the heater running. Verify that you have proper valve adjustment and that injection timing and chain stretch are correct, else it will both start hard and heat poorly. In fact, a stretched chain can prevent cold starts -- late valve timing will reduce compression at cranking speeds. Peter -Original Message- From: Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310 meade.m.dil...@navy.mil Sent: Jan 5, 2010 2:48 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] running temps in the cold? (was: Re: glowing in the cold) Maybe your temperature gauge is not accurate? My car reaches normal operating temperature after just a couple miles of highway, of course its an OM603. My normally aspirated OM617 would require about the same, maybe a little longer. Does your ALDA need adjustment - maybe fuel is too lean for the air the turbo is pushing, and more cold air means lower combustion and engine temperatures? I don't think you should need any radiator shroud/cover if your system is working right - thermostat should be staying closed so no flow via the radiator that you can affect in order to raise engine temperatures. -Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of ernest breakfield Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 2:26 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: [MBZ] running temps in the cold? (was: Re: glowing in the cold) only slightly related; what kind of operating temps are you guys that live in real cold seeing? here where temps rarely get much below the 20s-40s this time of year, i still don't often see the coolant temp indicate anything above 80C until it's been on the highway at speed/load for many miles. (i've already played with changing out the thermostat to units i've verified are opening at the proper temps.) i'm sure this is exacerbated by the fact that we're running almost pure BioDiesel almost all of the time as we can see the temps come up quicker and higher when we have to run #2 instead of B99 on road trips, but i can run around town all day and never see the coolant reach the normal area on the gauge even when temps are into the 50s and higher. FWIW, the car starts fine on a single glow cycle, but (no surprise!) definitely runs stronger when warm. i know some veteran diesel-heads used to be seen with radiators shrouded or grills even completely blocked in the cold to keep temps up where they're supposed to be; what are the thoughts regarding doing this with a 617 turbo-diesel? cheers! e '85 300D (~187K) Berkeley, CA Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310 wrote: OK, thanks for the input guys. I can't justify the $$$ for the Webasto unit, so I guess I'll just have to put up with the cold for another month or so. -Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dwight E. Giles, Jr Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 12:21 PM To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' Subject: Re: [MBZ] glowing in the cold I only ever tried the block heater once on the 300D 2.5t for that reason-couldn't see any difference in heat any sooner so I tucked the cord back onto bumper and have never used again. Dwight E. Giles, Jr. 1978 240D 4 speed. 218K + miles. 1990 300D 2.5t 170K miles. Wickford, RI -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Curt Raymond Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 12:05 PM To: Diesel List Subject: Re: [MBZ] glowing in the cold Max, I can't really tell the difference in how quickly I get heat, its the center of town for me pretty much no matter what. If I lived somewhere seriously cold I'd get a radiator heater to go along with the block heater, another 1000w into the radiator would surely give quicker cabin heat... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] running temps in the cold? (was: Re: glowing in the cold)
hi Curt! yep; gauge seems to work fine, and no disparities when checked with a laser thermometer. operating temps with #2 fuel in more temperate weather are pretty much what we'd expect. like i said; once it's on the highway for a while, it reads like you say yours does; just over the 80C mark... just takes a good long while to get all the way up there when running BioD. cabin heat seems pretty adequate (Climate Control does a pretty good job of taking care of that). doesn't start making any heat until the engines got some, but that seems consistent with what it was designed to do. concerns with running it below target temp are related to poorer combustion/power/shifting/fuel economy, and the fact that if it doesn't get up to temp it never evaporates the water that condenses into the oil, resulting in the formation of acids and higher contaminants. (i change the oil every 3K anyway because of what the BioD does to it, but i'd prefer to try to keep the odds stacked more in my favor.) i guess what i'm looking for is to see if there's any good reason *not* to block off some of the airflow,...? cheers! e Curt Raymond wrote: You've verified the gauge? 240D temps tend to fluctuate a bit since theres no overflow bottle (I guess anyway) but mine generally sits just over the 80C mark at temps above say -20F even on the highway. I seem to remember that Marshall had a magic number at which it was too cold for an MB diesel to overcome the cold air over the engine but I can't remember what it was and its way colder than I've ever seen. As long as I've got adequate cabin heat (which I do as long as the temp is around 80C) I don't see any reason to put any cardboard anywhere... -Curt Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 11:25:59 -0800 From: ernest breakfield erne...@backyardengineering.org To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: [MBZ] running temps in the cold? (was: Re: glowing in the cold) Message-ID: 4b439247.8050...@backyardengineering.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed only slightly related; what kind of operating temps are you guys that live in real cold seeing? here where temps rarely get much below the 20s-40s this time of year, i still don't often see the coolant temp indicate anything above 80C until it's been on the highway at speed/load for many miles. (i've already played with changing out the thermostat to units i've verified are opening at the proper temps.) i'm sure this is exacerbated by the fact that we're running almost pure BioDiesel almost all of the time as we can see the temps come up quicker and higher when we have to run #2 instead of B99 on road trips, but i can run around town all day and never see the coolant reach the normal area on the gauge even when temps are into the 50s and higher. FWIW, the car starts fine on a single glow cycle, but (no surprise!) definitely runs stronger when warm. i know some veteran diesel-heads used to be seen with radiators shrouded or grills even completely blocked in the cold to keep temps up where they're supposed to be; what are the thoughts regarding doing this with a 617 turbo-diesel? cheers! e '85 300D (~187K) Berkeley, CA ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] running temps in the cold? (was: Re: glowing in the cold)
Are these thermostats from Rusty? The good made in France ones? There Chinese ones are crap, absolute waste of time. See my other post but I think the big reason for not blocking the radiator is that something is wrong with the cooling system. Your symptoms don't make any sense to me. Run petro diesel for a week while its cold out to verify that the car absolutely doesn't behave like you say... On my morning commute today I had full temp in 3 miles. Ambient temp was 16F. Return trip I have to get on the highway within a mile of startup, I had full temp in 2.5 miles, ambient temp 24F. Based on that I'm sticking to there being something wrong with your car. The bioD argument just doesn't make sense to me. Granted there are loads of things that don't make sense to me but still. I kind of wish there was a bio pump somewhere handy, I'd spend the extra cash to see if my car did the same thing. -Curt Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 13:44:56 -0800 From: ernest breakfield erne...@backyardengineering.org To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] running temps in the cold? (was: Re: glowing in the cold) Message-ID: 4b43b2d8.1090...@backyardengineering.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed hi Curt! yep; gauge seems to work fine, and no disparities when checked with a laser thermometer. operating temps with #2 fuel in more temperate weather are pretty much what we'd expect. like i said; once it's on the highway for a while, it reads like you say yours does; just over the 80C mark... just takes a good long while to get all the way up there when running BioD. cabin heat seems pretty adequate (Climate Control does a pretty good job of taking care of that). doesn't start making any heat until the engines got some, but that seems consistent with what it was designed to do. concerns with running it below target temp are related to poorer combustion/power/shifting/fuel economy, and the fact that if it doesn't get up to temp it never evaporates the water that condenses into the oil, resulting in the formation of acids and higher contaminants. (i change the oil every 3K anyway because of what the BioD does to it, but i'd prefer to try to keep the odds stacked more in my favor.) i guess what i'm looking for is to see if there's any good reason *not* to block off some of the airflow,...? cheers! e ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] running temps in the cold? (was: Re: glowing in the cold)
Back in the depression days when antifreeze was alcohol, it evaporated as the winter wore on, and the frugal majority used the minimal amount to start with. The radiator was partially blocked in cold weather to conserve heat in the radiator. If the water/antifreeze mix in the radiator freezes, then the engine overheats. Not a good thing anytime, but even worse in the winter. With my older cars: 110 through 123 Diesels, I often put cardboard in front of the radiator to block 2/3 to 3/4 of the radiator. That resulted in the operating temps being in the 80 to 85 C range, and helped to protect against ice forming in the radiator. I did that initially with my first 126, since the PO had the thermostat removed. After putting a thermostat in the next spring, I no longer needed the cardboard. In extreme cold (somewhere colder than -10 or -20 F) I believe the cardboard helps the heater work better and the car warm up faster. (Even with an OM60x. only slightly related; what kind of operating temps are you guys that live in real cold seeing? here where temps rarely get much below the 20s-40s this time of year, i still don't often see the coolant temp indicate anything above 80C until it's been on the highway at speed/load for many miles. (i've already played with changing out the thermostat to units i've verified are opening at the proper temps.) i'm sure this is exacerbated by the fact that we're running almost pure BioDiesel almost all of the time as we can see the temps come up quicker and higher when we have to run #2 instead of B99 on road trips, but i can run around town all day and never see the coolant reach the normal area on the gauge even when temps are into the 50s and higher. FWIW, the car starts fine on a single glow cycle, but (no surprise!) definitely runs stronger when warm. i know some veteran diesel-heads used to be seen with radiators shrouded or grills even completely blocked in the cold to keep temps up where they're supposed to be; what are the thoughts regarding doing this with a 617 turbo-diesel? cheers! e '85 300D (~187K) Berkeley, CA Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310 wrote: OK, thanks for the input guys. I can't justify the $$$ for the Webasto unit, so I guess I'll just have to put up with the cold for another month or so. -Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dwight E. Giles, Jr Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 12:21 PM To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' Subject: Re: [MBZ] glowing in the cold I only ever tried the block heater once on the 300D 2.5t for that reason-couldn't see any difference in heat any sooner so I tucked the cord back onto bumper and have never used again. Dwight E. Giles, Jr. 1978 240D 4 speed. 218K + miles. 1990 300D 2.5t 170K miles. Wickford, RI -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Curt Raymond Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 12:05 PM To: Diesel List Subject: Re: [MBZ] glowing in the cold Max, I can't really tell the difference in how quickly I get heat, its the center of town for me pretty much no matter what. If I lived somewhere seriously cold I'd get a radiator heater to go along with the block heater, another 1000w into the radiator would surely give quicker cabin heat... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
